Definition of an uber

[ekans dilos]

SpecsMence could theoretically be countered by Stealth Rock + Protect + a switch. At some point you get up Stealth Rock, and then Specs Mence isn't really free to switch in. Then if you use something like Protect Vaporeon you can see what it uses and switch accordingly.

What are SpecsMence's numbers of a Heatproof Bronzong?

I only have Netbattle's Damage Calc, but Specsmence Draco Meteor on 338 HP(max)/361(max) SD Bronzong is 32-38%. Flamethrower deals 44-52%. Hydro Pump 56-65%.

Bronzong can SR and its a stalling whore so it can also have something like Hypnosis and Light Screen. If your foe assumes Levitate, you can switch it in on Specsmence and survive.

Well you bring up a good point and it does help me because I happen to have both vaporeon and stealth rock on my team =P although it's still only a partial counter, and if specsmence switches in before I have stealth rock out I most likely just lost a team member...

Listing one specific counter, though, doesn't mean much. You still need to pack one of these counters to even hope to survive against it, which again is a matter of overcentralization. Throw in base 600 stats, good resistances such as fighting and groung, intimidate, and the possibility of surprising with CB or DD... IMO Mence meets the qualifications for an uber and should be considered one.

 

[Hyra]

Well you bring up a good point and it does help me because I happen to have both vaporeon and stealth rock on my team =P although it's still only a partial counter, and if specsmence switches in before I have stealth rock out I most likely just lost a team member...

Listing one specific counter, though, doesn't mean much. You still need to pack one of these counters to even hope to survive against it, which again is a matter of overcentralization. Throw in base 600 stats, good resistances such as fighting and groung, intimidate, and the possibility of surprising with CB or DD... IMO Mence meets the qualifications for an uber and should be considered one.

Or because once so called "standard" pokemon are becoming Uber, we raise the bar for uberness. To me, only Arceus can overcentralize the uber Metagame, but it's typing is given away, which makes it easier to switch to an appropriate counter.

Also, Mence will still be used in ubers because it can outspeed Rayquaza and Modest Lati@s. TTar will be used to counter Executor and such on Groudon teams. Heatran has a 4x resist to Ice and Bug and Resists most other Uber Attacking types. Weavile can revenge kill stuff like Deoxys. Cresselia is still an amazing wall.

In short, the uber tier in DP will take the Ubers and the very best standard pokemon and combine them. Because of the weather ubers, certain underused pokemon with Chlorophyll and such will be used to abuse the weather. Then there are pokemon like Shedinja, which is the perfect counter to Kyogre, because Drizzle removes Sandstorm and Spikes are rare. I actually believe that an uber tier will be more varied than a Standard teir, simply because there are so few pokemon that have the same level of power in standard. In ubers, there are mnany more Pokemon that can compete at the highest tier of power.

 

[Jibaku]

TTar will be used to counter Executor

Grass knot

 

[Luck]

Well you bring up a good point and it does help me because I happen to have both vaporeon and stealth rock on my team =P although it's still only a partial counter, and if specsmence switches in before I have stealth rock out I most likely just lost a team member...

Listing one specific counter, though, doesn't mean much. You still need to pack one of these counters to even hope to survive against it, which again is a matter of overcentralization. Throw in base 600 stats, good resistances such as fighting and groung, intimidate, and the possibility of surprising with CB or DD... IMO Mence meets the qualifications for an uber and should be considered one.

I do this two ways

Thing that are banned beat specmence

Lati@s,Deoxy LG,Darkrai

Thing that are not banned that specmence

Blissey,Regice,Cressila,Empleon,Slaking,on the list goes on...

We can play the Poke A beats Poke B game but i don't want to mess on the topic.The game can handle mence and would be even easier we had deoxy lg one of the better walls in the game.

 

[Azrael]

Basically what you are saying Ubers metagame should be called Standard metagame, Standard be called uu . You realize basically arguing nothing,What you want already exists, you are free to play with what ever pokes want to play with in the uber play and guess what 20-30 pokes are only 1s that get used.

This topic is starting to piss me off because we have people coming in here arguing the STUPIDEST points. I've tried to be nice so far, but now I'm sick of it.

What luck says is true: If you're arguing for an uber metagame, then shut up, because it will exist regardless.

This is a discussion on what ubers are in definite. Standard play is play that has no ubers, but the term "uber" has always been loosely defined. This topic is to make sure the definition is tight enough so we can easily process a Pokemon as being uber.

If you wanna argue an uber metagame, get out of the topic. End.

 

[ekans dilos]

I do this two ways

Thing that are banned beat specmence

Lati@s,Deoxy LG,Darkrai

Thing that are not banned that specmence

Blissey,Regice,Cressila,Empleon,Slaking,on the list goes on...

We can play the Poke A beats Poke B game but i don't want to mess on the topic.The game can handle mence and would be even easier we had deoxy lg one of the better walls in the game.

Uhh... first of all unless I have my calculations wrong, adamant max atk max spd slaking gets ohkoed by draco meteor... then, regice can take specsmence but if it's a physical one he gets 2hkoed. But fine, that's a decent counter... now what else is it good for? The rest are just the ones already mentioned and the list most certainly does NOT go on, which is exactly the problem. Is it uncounterable? Once again no. Nothing is.(Arceus... hmm...) But it certainly has few counters that centralize things way too much.

 

[COalex]

Standard play is play that has no ubers, but the term "uber" has always been loosely defined. This topic is to make sure the definition is tight enough so we can easily process a Pokemon as being uber.

Uuh, standard play is the metagame that most people play. If Ubers was standard, then everybody would play with Ubers. If everybody banned Hidden Power, than standard play would have Hidden Power banned.

Why do we need to ban certain pokemon? And don't say that they constrict the metagame, because Hyra already gave a list of all the pokemon that would be viable~

 

[Azrael]

Uuh, standard play is the metagame that most people play. If Ubers was standard, then everybody would play with Ubers. If everybody banned Hidden Power, than standard play would have Hidden Power banned.

Why do we need to ban certain pokemon? And don't say that they constrict the metagame, because Hyra already gave a list of all the pokemon that would be viable~

Let me try to say this in English, because apparently I've been writing in Japanese or something:

You're arguing for the supposed uber metagame to become standard. Hyra listed, CONVENIENTLY ENOUGH, an uber metagame for D/P. Why? Known ubers are on it (loosely defined) with known Pokemon that can live in ubers (Exeggutor can play with ubers? NO WAY! NEWS!!).

I've asked for a topic clean-up so expect one shortly. :D

 

[Luck]

Let me bring it back on topic,From this topic so far this what you define a uber by

1) Having limited or no counters
2) Overcentralizes the metagame
3)They normally have stats equal equal 600 or above
4)They either have massive sweeping ability or Amazing survivability that cause pokemon be able to damage every member of opposite team.

*Wobbufett fits 3 out of 4

Anything need to be fixed in that ? I would probably guess number 2?Clear definition of over centralizing would help.

 

[Azrael]

Let me bring it back on topic,From this topic so far this what you define a uber by

1) Having limited or no counters
2) Overcentralizes the metagame
3)They normally have stats equal equal 600 or above
4)They either have massive sweeping ability or Amazing survivability that cause pokemon be able to damage every member of opposite team.

*Wobbufett fits 3 out of 4

Anything need to be fixed in that ? I would probably guess number 2?Clear definition of over centralizing would help.

Overcentralizes it without having the majority of Pokemon having a 600 or more BST?

 

[COalex]

Azrael, I don't know if you're trying to troll, or you just didn't read my posts, or maybe I'm just not getting what you're saying, but this is basically what I'm "getting" from your post:

Me: Why can't Ubers be standard play? Hyra made a list of pokemon that would be viable.
You: That list was for Ubers ddddd stop going off topic in my thread also everybody already knows that Eggy can be used in Ubers

Obviously I can't try to prove my point unless I can understand why you don't get it, so I would like you to help me understand (in short, clear, and preferably to-the-point sentences) why you don't think that the Uber metagame should be standard.

Thank you for your understanding.

 

[Luck]

Obviously I can't try to prove my point unless I can understand why you don't get it, so I would like you to help me understand (in short, clear, and preferably to-the-point sentences) why you don't think that the Uber metagame should be standard.

Thank you for your understanding.

IF the Uber game was standard metagame it would be same exact thing as current Uber metagame meaning people would use the 4 most powerful pokes and 2 filler poke that fit team and most of these filler pokes are uber pokes themselves and same 20 to 30 pokes would be in play.The Only difference is that current standard would become UU and T-tar other BL ubers would be allowed in UU play.So the question is what is the difference between what we have now and what you want.The answer is the name.Now ask yourself does it matter what is called?It is the same thing.

 

[Cromat]

Lets get back to definitions. Since the terms 'Uber' and 'standard' are closely linked, i'll try to define 'standard' first.

Standard - The metagame that allows the maximum amount of pokemon while still maximising balance, variety and emphasis on skill.

Uber - An Uber is a pokemon that is banned from Standard. From the first definition we can deduce that an Uber is a pokemon that creates inbalance, constricts variety and/or reduces the emphasis on skill.

I think that going from the first definition, there is a chance (not certain by any means) that the Uber term wouldn't be necessary anymore. I am personally quite sure that the current standard game will be better than allowing Ubers, but it all depends on the number on non-Uber pokemon viable in that everything-allowed metagame.
The fact that people played the 'Uber metagame' is quite revealing since it directly contradicts what being an Uber is all about.
Keep in mind that this debate is more than just about semantics. Making Ubers the 'standard' game wouldn't just be changing the names of the current OU game to UU and so forth. It has a distinct advantage, assuming that a game with all pokemon allowed is as enjoyable and varied as the current standard one (pretty big assumption there). It will prevent a situation like Celebi and Jirachi in RSE, whose legality was debated until the very end. If all pokemon are allowed, it will create a simpler, more elegant rule set.

 

[obi]

If you feel that Tar is an uber, say so.

SD or CB? Some of those counters are supposed ubers anyway...

I'm sorry, I guess I didn't explain myself well enough. You are using RS tiers to judge DP. Some of those counters are RS uber, yes. However, if we allow them, they wouldn't be DP uber, thus avoiding the problem. Asking that all the counters for Groudon be ADV OU is like asking for all the counters to Tyranitar to be ADV UU. Some exist, yes, much like Groudon has counters in OU, but you can't expect all of them to be, and it's not an argument against it to include some counters that aren't ADV uber. So no, I'm not saying Tyranitar is uber.

Some of them work only against one (Jynx can only stop a SDer, for example), but others work against both.

we already know that Exeggutor can work in ubers anyway... AA, etc.

So basically, this is what you're looking for:
Since my knowledge is mostly limited to ADV, I can't really mention a DP Pokemon.
The Pokemon cannot be in the ADV Uber tier, so it must be OU or lower.
It cannot be an OU / BL / UU / NU Pokemon known to work in ubers.

Have you ever heard the story of Sir Arthur Eddington's Ichthyologist? In it, there is a fisherman (Ichthyology is the study of fish) who has a net. However, because of the shape of the net, he can only catch certain types of sea creatures. Larger ones are too big for the net to hold, and the smaller fish can just swim right out. He then classified all sea life based on what he caught. When someone approached him asking about all the things he cannot catch, he says to the man, "What my net cannot catch is not a fish." That is essentially what you have done. You ask a question, and then I give an answer, but you then create further restrictions such that my answer will not fit. You've asked me to kick a field goal but you keep moving the goalposts.

Postulating on what?

That the true standard (including ex-ubers) metagame is, in fact, not as invariable as you claim.

Why is there standard game and ubers game,why are pokes Banned?

The purpose of the standard metagame is to have as many competitive Pokemon allowed as possible.

The standard game purpose is to have as much competitive top level pokes as possible.

Glad we agree.

It was clear when gamefreak/nintendo create curtain pokes mew2,lugia,etc they were created to be superpokes not on same level as other pokes,what was also clear to have the best balanced game these super lengendary pokemon need to banned game to keep balance.If you think no pokemon is uber,Even the game makers themselves have the uber ban in the actually game battle towers and some live tournament events.

To my knowledge, all major Nintendo tournaments have allowed ubers. For JAA, for instance, all Pokemon were allowed except Leftovers Wobbuffet (Wobbuffet vs. Wobbuffet requires something on the order of 40 critical hits in a row to end if both are holding Leftovers, IIRC), Soul Dew Lati@s (I don't know if there is some in-game restriction on acquiring Soul Dew, most likely), and Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, and Deoxys. The last four were banned due to their unavailability to the general public, not because they were considered overpowered. Conspicuous for their absence from this list is Kyogre, Groudon, Mewtwo, Rayquaza, Soul Dewless Lati@s, Lugia, and Ho-oh.

1.Anypoke above 600 uber (except slaking and stupid regi).Allow 600 level pokes in play.This probably the simplest solution.They are only three questionable pokes Mew,Deoxys attack and Latias.The question will these three mess up the metagame ?

2.Ban All 600 pokes.Make anypoke that is 600 and above uber.Ends all arguements but elimates alot cool pokes.

3.When we get Diamond/Pearl netbattle/comp. allow 600 pokes in standard play have complete long process where we get rid pokes that are uber.Which what is going to happen anyway.

Arbitrary bans. Why not actually take trait, typing, stats, movepool, and other things into consideration instead of an arbitrary blanket ban based on prior generations?

If anything, blame D/P for introducing about 15 legendaries... Anyway, NO. I don't see ubers ever becoming the standard tier, and it should certainly not merge with standard. That's just ridiculous; most of that tier wouldn't be able to compete and would have to move down a tier... It defeats the purpose and throws everything off balance. Ubers are separated for a reason.

How is it ridiculous? The standard tier should be the highest balanced metagame. You're basically just giving a knee-jerk reaction to it. You essentially want to do things because they've always been done that way, even though the reasons for doing things originally no longer exist.

If we can all agree however that the ultimate goal is to have the greatest variety of usable pokes in every tier (diversity = good), and we agree that an uber is a force that overcentralizes the metagame, then IMO we seriously need to remove things like Salamence, who forces everyone to use standard walls just to not get completely owned. What if I don't want to use Blissey and Cresselia like everyone and their grandmother? Tough luck, as long as Mence is around.

Or allow those other Pokemon that can counter Salamence, increasing the potential counters list is another way to avoid overcentralization.

Arguably TTar is also overcentralizing as every team has to be ready to deal with sandstorm just because he exists; and a few others such as azelf and the infamous garchomp could prove difficult to deal with. (probably not rhyperior ;P)

The two single greatest counters in the game to Tyranitar are Groudon and Kyogre, in that order.

This topic is starting to piss me off because we have people coming in here arguing the STUPIDEST points. I've tried to be nice so far, but now I'm sick of it.

As far as I've seen, no, you haven't been trying to be nice. You've been dismissive from the start, hostile toward anyone who disagrees with you, and just generally domineering. This is not how you have a debate, it seems to me you're only interested in a shouting match.

What luck says is true: If you're arguing for an uber metagame, then shut up, because it will exist regardless.

I'm not arguing for an uber metagame. I'm arguing for standard to possibly include Pokemon that were once considered uber. Anything that truly destroys game balance would be tossed into the uber tier. I just don't think it should include 25 or whatever Pokemon; that is the true absurdity.

This is a discussion on what ubers are in definite. Standard play is play that has no ubers, but the term "uber" has always been loosely defined. This topic is to make sure the definition is tight enough so we can easily process a Pokemon as being uber.

Standard play is the game that is most commonly played, and this is important because it is what the Smogon Tour will be, for instance. Uber is anything that unbalances the game. Start with nothing banned, and ban anything that truly creates unbalance.

Let me try to say this in English, because apparently I've been writing in Japanese or something:

Perhaps the problem isn't in your writing abilities, but your reading abilities.

You're arguing for the supposed uber metagame to become standard. Hyra listed, CONVENIENTLY ENOUGH, an uber metagame for D/P. Why? Known ubers are on it (loosely defined) with known Pokemon that can live in ubers (Exeggutor can play with ubers? NO WAY! NEWS!!).

No, Hyra listed what could be the top tier Pokemon in a new standard. It includes Pokemon that were uber in ADV. That's like saying that in ADV, you can't put Misdreavus in UU because it was OU in GSC. Prior versions are irrelevant to the tier system in this version.

I've asked for a topic clean-up so expect one shortly. :D

The only thing I've seen that's even potentially worthy of cleaning is your constant insulting of everyone who doesn't agree with you, so I won't be expecting one.


"And when everyone is super, no one will be." ~Syndrome

 

[ekans dilos]

I'm sorry, I guess I didn't explain myself well enough. You are using RS tiers to judge DP. Some of those counters are RS uber, yes. However, if we allow them, they wouldn't be DP uber, thus avoiding the problem. Asking that all the counters for Groudon be ADV OU is like asking for all the counters to Tyranitar to be ADV UU. Some exist, yes, much like Groudon has counters in OU, but you can't expect all of them to be, and it's not an argument against it to include some counters that aren't ADV uber. So no, I'm not saying Tyranitar is uber.

That the true standard (including ex-ubers) metagame is, in fact, not as invariable as you claim.

The purpose of the standard metagame is to have as many competitive Pokemon allowed as possible.

How is it ridiculous? The standard tier should be the highest balanced metagame. You're basically just giving a knee-jerk reaction to it. You essentially want to do things because they've always been done that way, even though the reasons for doing things originally no longer exist.

Why not?

Or allow those other Pokemon that can counter Salamence, increasing the potential counters list is another way to avoid overcentralization.

The two single greatest counters in the game to Tyranitar are Groudon and Kyogre, in that order.

I'm not arguing for an uber metagame. I'm arguing for standard to possibly include Pokemon that were once considered uber. Anything that truly destroys game balance would be tossed into the uber tier. I just don't think it should include 25 or whatever Pokemon; that is the true absurdity.

No, Hyra listed what could be the top tier Pokemon in a new standard. It includes Pokemon that were uber in ADV. That's like saying that in ADV, you can't put Misdreavus in UU because it was OU in GSC. Prior versions are irrelevant to the tier system in this version.
"And when everyone is super, no one will be." ~Syndrome

. . . I don't even know where to start. You don't want a standard uber metagame and yet you're talking about countering Ttar with Groudon/Kyogre and Mence with uber counters...?

I'm struggling to comprehend the points that some people are trying to make about ubers being the most variable metagame. ... ... ... First of all, someone made a list of 50 or so "usable" pokemon in Ubers (30 not including arceus). OK. Now look at our projected DP OU. Are ONLY the OU pokemon viable in this tier??? At least judging by the past, UU and BL pokemon are seen on OU teams all the time and can be quite effective if used correctly. So you end up with a list of easily 100+ usable pokes. In ubers, the only ones that would be able to stand up would be a) The VERY BEST of OU whose typings/defenses and whatnot are well suited for the ubers environment and b) weather abusers. WHY make just about EVERYTHING else unusable? You say Uber would have diversity? Have you stopped to think that Arceus would be on EVERY single team? Mewtwo, Scheme-passing Mew, Groudon, Kyogre, Palkia; you would never see a team without 1-2 of the above. Can the uber metagame exist and quite possibly be interesting? Absolutely. But should it be "Standard"? NO, as it simply does not allow the most diversity. Not by a longshot.

Anyway this is getting way too off topic... Some interesting points have been brought up in this thread and they should be explored further, but the discussion is straying too far from the original intention of "what is an uber" (and I maintain that it's anything that overcentralizes the metagame if included) and there's too much tension between people.

 

[obi]

. . . I don't even know where to start. You don't want a standard uber metagame and yet you're talking about countering Ttar with Groudon/Kyogre and Mence with uber counters...?

No, I'm not. I'm saying two potential counters are Pokemon that were once uber. You're using ADV tiers to determine what's uber in DP. If we were to allow everything, then Groudon and Kyogre wouldn't be ubers.

I'm struggling to comprehend the points that some people are trying to make about ubers being the most variable metagame. ... ... ... First of all, someone made a list of 50 or so "usable" pokemon in Ubers (30 not including arceus). OK. Now look at our projected DP OU. Are ONLY the OU pokemon viable in this tier??? At least judging by the past, UU and BL pokemon are seen on OU teams all the time and can be quite effective if used correctly. So you end up with a list of easily 100+ usable pokes.

You'll have a hard time convincing me of that large of a base.

In ubers, the only ones that would be able to stand up would be a) The VERY BEST of OU whose typings/defenses and whatnot are well suited for the ubers environment and b) weather abusers. WHY make just about EVERYTHING else unusable? You say Uber would have diversity? Have you stopped to think that Arceus would be on EVERY single team? Mewtwo, Scheme-passing Mew, Groudon, Kyogre, Palkia; you would never see a team without 1-2 of the above. Can the uber metagame exist and quite possibly be interesting? Absolutely. But should it be "Standard"? NO, as it simply does not allow the most diversity. Not by a longshot.

If any one of those are found to truly be unable to exist in a balanced metagame, then they are banned. They become the real ubers of DP, not the legacy ubers of ADV.


The reason the reasons for banning many of these don't exist any more is because there are just so many of them. The whole point of banning the ubers in RBY and GSC were because there were so few and they were so powerful that the game became those few Pokemon. RBY would be Amnesia Mewtwo, with Explosion Mews and Thunder Wave Electrode and the like, everything just to block Mewtwo. GSC became even more stallish, and also reduced the Pokemon to "what can stall with Lugia".

In ADV, this became a bit more hazy. In DP, with even more ubers, and the increase in power of Pokemon like Salamence and Tyranitar, I'd say the reasons are gone entirely. If the reason for the ban is gone, then why keep the ban?


Treat DP as it's own game. If RBY, GSC, and ADV didn't exist, would you still immediately draw a line between banning Mew but not Celebi? Ban Ho-oh but not Salamence and Tyranitar? I think a lot of the obstruction to this is just that people are used to certain Pokemon being banned.

 

[Hyra]

Our point is that our current "ubers" do not overcentralize a metagame in which other current "ubers" are allowed. The onyl possible exception is Arceus, if you treat all 17 of them as one. We are not argueing for a seperate uber metagame, we are saying that nothing fits the uber description and that the uber list and metagame should be abolished. This leaves pokemon that can compete in this new enviroment for OU and those that cannot for UU. Sure, some pokemon like Gyarados and Electivire drop down to UU. But wasn't Celebi uber in GSC and OU in ADV? The standard tier is simply increasing in the amount of powerful Pokemon it can handle.

Secondly, every OU has 1-2 OU pokemon in it. It is required if you want even a shot at winning. When Mewtwo and co are the OU pokemon, you need at least 1-2 on each team to have a shot at winning.


Disclaimer: I believe that nothing fits the essential definition of uber, which is a Pokemon that overcentralizes the metagame because it is too variable or powerful to counter. We currently have enough Pokemon on the highest tier of power to all the highest tier into our standard metagame.

 

[ekans dilos]

OK, I see your point about legacy ubers, and that's fine. Definetly, things like Salamence and TTar need to be reevaluated, that's what i've been arguing for from the start. But I don't see Kyogre, Groudon, or even Mew with it's shiny new scheme-passing being balanced in OU. At all. I think you're trying to make OU less strict while I'm trying to make it more so. I can respect your opinion but I think including things like Kyogre would turn OU into Ubers lite, and greatly reduce variety.

100+ viable choices in OU? Naturally, some would be far less viable than others, and some are more or less inferior version of others with only slight differences to make them shine, but the point is that just about anything not NU can stand a chance in OU when in the right hands. There were 35 "standards" in Adv, and about the same number in BL. A good number of UUs were highly usable as well (e.g. Raichu, Ampharos, Meganium, Misdreavus, Khangaskhan, Hypno, etc.) and some others which had their niches (Shedinja, Octillery...)

Consider that in DP, while some of these may have been outclassed by newcomers (poor Fearow =( ), many others have recieved upgrades in the forms of new moves (Brave Bird, flare drive, scheme...), traits (hi machamp!) or evolutions. Some evolutions can even be considered separate from their previous forms, e.g. Electivire and Magmortar vs. Electabuzz and Magmar; Porygon Z vs. Porygon 2. There All in all, the list of usable pokes in OU is certainly close to 100, if not quite 100+. The fact is that most players will stick to the standard 40 or so 90% of the time. Especially at the beginning, but once the metagame is standardized you'll start seeing some interesting faces come up. While weaker than OUs, the underused/borderline pokemon are not outclassed to the point where they can't do ANYTHING as they would be with ubers allowed, and they have the element of surprise on their side. Of course, there are certain threats which IMO prevent a lot of these potentially usable pokes to be usable in actuality (I'm not a big fan of the base 600 crowd...) And, again, these are the ones whose status as an uber needs to be evaluated.

 

[COalex]

Of course Mew, Kyogre, and Groudon wouldn't be balanced in OU; they'll probably be balanced in Uber-standard. The only pokemon I can really think that would unbalance Uber-standard would be Arceus, which is saying something for its variety.

I still don't believe that there would be 100 used pokes in D/P OU. In fact, judging from all the warstories I've seen, most of the teams are Blissey/Cresselia/Salamence and a few others. That does not seem to be ~100 pokemon at all.

 

[Azrael]

I'm not arguing for an uber metagame. I'm arguing for standard to possibly include Pokemon that were once considered uber. Anything that truly destroys game balance would be tossed into the uber tier. I just don't think it should include 25 or whatever Pokemon; that is the true absurdity.

This is just plain ignorance.

What makes you think something like Gallade will be able to compete with Pokemon like Mewtwo and Groudon? It won't. It can't.

All I see is you guys taking all of the 600+ BST Pokemon, telling us that, surprisingly enough I know, other 600+ BST Pokemon can effectively counter them, plus one or two UU Pokemon IDEALISTICALLY, and say it's fine as a seperate metagame.

Yeah no kiddding, and last Gen it was called the uber metagame. I sincerely doubt a team like Mewtwo/Kyogre/Groudon/Lugia/Ttar/Blissey won't be seen all the time in a metagame like that.

Meanwhile, anything under 60+ BST MAY have a chance to compete.

And then in the assumed OU metagame, something like Machamp can thrive, or Ninjask, or Gallade, or Weavile, etc. I really do think it'll be over 100+ (unless something like Specsmence is really that bad, then I think we should put him out too).

This is why I want to start with Cromat's list, to start with Pokemon that have 600+ BST, because they will overcentralize the Standard Metagame relative to one without them.

Obv not all ubers will be 600+ BST (coughwobbacough), but it's a good starting place, and it's not arbitrary since those Pokemon would fit the other definitions anyway, of which you're overlooking in your arguments. /rolleyes

 

[Glen ^^]

Yeah no kiddding, and last Gen it was called the uber metagame. I sincerely doubt a team like Mewtwo/Kyogre/Groudon/Lugia/Ttar/Blissey won't be seen all the time in a metagame like that.

J
ust limit the use of them. One each team, and problem solved, why not?

 

[COalex]

This is just plain ignorance.

What makes you think something like Gallade will be able to compete with Pokemon like Mewtwo and Groudon? It won't. It can't.

I think that you're undermining yourself here; Gallade is usable in Ubers wheras it's completely useless in OU :/ Unless you were implying that it would be good to play in Ubers because there's more viable pokemon, but somehow I think that wasn't your point.

 

[Azrael]

Glen-That's even more complicated than just banning a tier.

I think that you're undermining yourself here; Gallade is usable in Ubers wheras it's completely useless in OU :/ Unless you were implying that it would be good to play in Ubers because there's more viable pokemon, but somehow I think that wasn't your point.

No, Gallade wouldn't be able to compete in ubers.

 

[Luck]

Arcues,Groudon,Kyorge,Palika,Digala,Mewtwo-If you can explain why you won't be seeing this team over and over you win the prize.The worst part about is Last spot Mewtwo can easily be filled a lugia,rayquaaza,or what ever support poke needed and Arcues to can fill any role it wants.This team can't be counter without team looks similar and even if you manage to counter it one small change arcues and last spot and the team is back in business.

Who does Gallade beat in Ubers?T-tar,Darkrai,Regice,Blissey

 

[Azrael]

Who does Gallade beat in Ubers?T-tar,Darkrai,Regice,Blissey

None of which contain the stats that Groudon/Kyogre+ have. ._.