Definition of an uber

[Mekkah]

Guys, I'm all for well-thought out debates, but please don't do this:

This is just plain ignorance.

Uhh...

Are you out of your mind?

Um, what?

please read my post before you reply to it :/ :/ :/

Posting and arguing is fun and all, but you don't have to insult or sass people who don't agree with you. We're all sort of grown-ups here. For the record I just skimmed this thread and picked some things that stuck out, but this goes for all of you.

 

[Phi]

I'd like to point out that the OMGscary uber teams posted, Arceus/Kyogre/Groudon/Palkia/Dialga/Mewtwo and Mewtwo/Kyogre/Groudon/Lugia/Tyranitar/Blissey, both, while not 6-0, have some glaring weaknesses to both Uber and non-uber pokeymans.
Notably, I'm thinking the second one has huge Tangrowth/Exeggutor, Weavile, Darkrai, Shedinja, and Gengar weaknesses. The first one I haven't thought about as much, but it seems that, at the very least, Ho-oh tears through a bunch of those Pokeymans. It's pretty stupid to have both weather Ubers on the same team, though.

 

[COalex]

The same reason we didn't see every team with Salamence/Skarmory/Blissey/Zapdos/Jirachi/Gyarados in RS OU; I don't know why, but people aren't always going to use the best team.

By the way, the first team has a gaping Mewtwo, Groudon, Darkrai, Shedinja (depending on the Arceus type, of course), Jumpluff etc weakness.

Gallade is good because he has a physical Night Slash or whatever it's called coming from a 125 base attack and 115 base Special Defense.

 

[Phiphler]

Sure there are pokemon currently not considered uber, that are usable in uber.
Their use is there is either circumstancial (weather or similar), or because they are the best at one specific job (Jumpluff is damn fast and can sleep).

This is also the case with OU, there are BL and even UU that perform one job well, due to Sandstorm cover, countering something specifically, or being capable of advanced stratagems (Ingrain+baton pass Smeargle).

The difference in these two cases are that there are WAY more that can fall under the latter definition then the former.
Now, uber can be fun and varied, but it will always be less varied then the OU metagame, due to the focal characters, the true ubers such as Arceus or Giratina.

Now, its fun that uber is more varied then before, but that simply makes uber tier more fun, it does not mean that it should replace the current standard metagame. Let these tiers co-exist like they have since Adv.

Now, to define an uber. An uber is something that is either:
Increadibly difficult to counter before it deals extreme damage (like Attack Deoxys),
something that outclasses everything in its category (Groudon makes all other ground obsolete),
or something that in other ways would seriously reduce your strategic options (Arceus)
or be so random or uncounterable that no strategy could be used, removing the strategy aspect of the game (Mew, also Wobba).

Salamence could definitly be considered uber with these conditions, as it does in fact constrict the metagame to a select few tanks, while Dragonite does not, as it doesnt have the choicspecs jumping or Intimidate.

Other borderline cases are things such as Azelf, its nigh-impossible to counter, and will sweep alot before its stopped (although not with the extreme power of Attack Deoxys).

Strategy in the game should be based on what the standard things are, and that you from there are creative with things such as Special Tank Cradily in Sandstorm, pass Aqua Ring to a special sweeping Spiritomb etc.
The options for making odd strategies like this are much more limited in an uber environment, a pokemon needs to do its job perfectly there to have a chance, surprise element is overpowered by sheer stats.

I guess what Im trying to say is: The uber tier and OU tier are 2 different games, let them stay separated and interesting, and not make uber the standard, which would reduce the diversity of the game as whole.

 

[Azrael]

I like Phipler's post.

For once. <3 :D

 

[Phiphler]

Much appreciated <3

 

[Pokézoni]

It used to be easy to define an uber... something so strong, that you either had to have it on your team, or else risk losing to it, regardless of skill.

Today, that doesn't exist... it's no longer about unbalancing, and unfairness, but simply about maximizing the number of potential candidates for a team member.

I think a good rule of thumb should be how well its stats compare vs. others in its typing/grouping, and how much it restricts a possible opponent.

There should be a dozen or so viable special walls... when it's ONLY either Blissey, Cresselia, or Mesprit, I think something should be done to determine the power of pokemon that require them, and perhaps removing them both from standard.

I honestly think that if we have standards defined as having at least 4-5 plausible counters, we'd see much more variation, and a lot more of the game would revolve around skill and prediction.

On a side note:

Personally, I'm looking forward to finding a good community for the casual UU metagame, as it seems to have the widest selection of pokemon without the restrictions of such a small selection of viable counters for the extremely popular ones tearing through the OU metagame at the moment.

 

[Footnote]

This topic is near and dear to my heart. I really should have posted earlier.

I think the qualities that define an Über were very well laid out at the beginning of this thread. The problem is that none of those qualities is measurable. It's all subject to opinion. Hence, it is overwhelmingly unlikely that an agreement will ever be reached on the subject.

There are a lot of people here that are arguing what should and should not be allowed in the 'standard' game. I'm going to try to look past these arguments to base motivations (I could be way off-base here, so yell at me if you don't fit into one of these categories).

1. People who want specific (favorite) Pokémon to be viable in the 'standard' tier so that they can have battles against many opponents and still use said Pokémon. This goes both ways. There are people who want 'UU' Pokémon to be more viable, but there are also those who feel the same way about Pokémon like Salamence, Tyranitar and Garchomp, even though a good argument can be made that they severely centralize the metagame.

2. People who want to have the most viable options in the standard metagame. These people want to have a set of banned Pokémon that will maximize the number of Pokémon that can be used effectively in standard play. I'm mostly in this camp, but I recognize that finding this 'maximal' set of Pokémon may not be possible.

3. Traditionalists who like the current metagame and see no reason to jump to a new one before the current ban list from RSE is adequately tested first.

I don't think any of these positions is better or worse than any other, but it's entirely possible that they cannot all be met in the same play environment. I think I have a possible solution.

I propose two basic play environments. The first environment would allow all Pokémon, including those that are considered Übers with respect to the standard game (with the possible exception of Arceus). When all of the D/P Pokémon were first revealed, I was infuriated that there were so many new legendaries. But then I realized that with all these powerful new Pokémon, GameFreak has created the possiblility of an "Über" tier that is actually varied and interesting.

The second environment would be like the one that I have been proposing (shameless, I know, but bear with me). It includes no legendaries or Pokémon with base-600 stats. Many of these Pokémon have been allowed for a long time, but that doesn't mean that they don't severely restrict the number of viable Pokémon in a tier that includes them. As long as both of these environments have enough supporters, they can co-exist. People who love their CSMence and their Tyranitar, I believe that these Pokémon are viable in the first environment, but they will no longer rule the roost. Those that want to use some 'UU' Pokémon, most will be viable in the second environment. Neither has to be considered 'standard'.

I believe this solves the main Über problems, but it still leaves out many Pokémon that are 'outclassed' by other, non-Über Pokémon. I reference Swampert (which outclasses Gastrodon and Quagsire) and Staraptor (which outclasses Pidgeot, Fearow, Dodrio, etc.) as two examples. I am against banning Pokémon for this reason. For one thing, it opens up more subjectivity about what does and does not outclass what. More importantly, there is an environment that is perfect for these Pokémon, and that environment is 2v2.

Pidgeot gets Tailwind: a practically useless move in 1v1, it's power is incredible in 2v2 with the right Pokémon on your team. Dodrio gets Acupressure: you can target your ally with this. Mixed sweepers that aren't quite fast enough (like Blaziken) love being hit with Acupressure because they can greatly benefit from having any of their seven stats raised. Fearow gets Assurance: a useless move in 1v1, but powerful in 2v2 with the right ally.

Likewise, Quagsire gets Water Absorb (great for when your ally has Surf) and Gastrodon gets Storm Drain along with Counter and Mirror Coat (draw targeted water attacks and KO the attacker).

It's clear to me that GameFreak worked hard to make 2v2 an incredibly varied and interesting environment, and I strongly recommend taking advantage of it. Trust me, Double Battles are a ton of fun.

Anyway, sorry if I appear to be a little off-topic, but I strongly believe that 'what makes an Über' can only be discussed in the context of a tier system. The two really can't be separated.

 

[Surgo]

I'm going to lock this because this has been really circular and having tiering discussions on public boards has, as shown in the past, been pretty useless.

That said, I'm glad Footnote got to post before I locked and I'd like to point out that tiers in 1v1 or 2v2 can and should be different; the reason we don't list 2v2 on this site is because nobody here really plays 2v2 very much. This may change in DP as it seems better -- we'll see.

He's right, though -- in the end, an arbitrary line gets drawn somewhere.