Wobbuffet has no counter and was alreayd covered as why it's uber.I meant pokemon types(like dark,ghost) don't counter what suppose to counter(psychic types) or Mewtwo versus anytype dark type not darkrai.
Wobby can be dealt with too many ways taunt,status attacks, roar/whirlwind, explosion,dark pokemon,Let pokemon die and have gardy or duggy kill it.You can use stat upper+sub/recover/rest which are fairly common set ups and pp waste wobby until it is basically useless, because you are going to hit wobby with 6 stat up move which going is leave it in bad shape maybe even faint it.Wobby is very counterable,but uber annoying because to do scenario above takes like an hour or two try pp waste it and beat the whole team. Wobby just on sheer annoyingness should have been banned but is not uber.You could make case for deoxy lg and lugia who don't fit my definition uber but when you leave pokemon alive give them chance to set up which most of the time leads to losses.
... I made the topic.Azrael, did you even read the topic? It's about what makes a pokemon Uber, not what the uber tier is.
Did you read my post? I suggested making standard play be in Ubers.There is an uber metagame that is seperate from standard play, which excludes ubers.
What's your point?
The point of that post was probably the point that was heavily debated in the pre-DP era; why don't be make the Uber metagame the "Standard" metagame? After all, there are plenty of those beastly pokemon now, about just as many as OU has.There is an uber metagame that is seperate from standard play, which excludes ubers.
What's your point?
Because they constrict the OU Metagame Way More than Gyarados/Garchomp/TTar.My question is: Why are Ubers banned? They obviously don't constrict the Uber metagame more than Gyarados/Garchomp/Tyranitar constricts the OU metagame, so why can't we use them?
Ubers simply have no reason to be banned~
Your post asked why Ubers are banned from standard play. I gave you a semi-lengthly response with just one example, and you tell me I'm repeating the obvious.OUs are also better than UUs.
Now that we're done repeating obvious things (Groudon is better than Garchomp!!!!!), you might want to read my post. Groudonis less dominating IN UBERS than Garchomp is IN OU. You don't need to devote a pokemon or two to countering Groudon which gives you more creativity with team building which is good.
Hey! Don't be a fucking douchebag, thanks.Did you read my post? I suggested making standard play be in Ubers.
Reading comprehension: it's occasionally useful.
He's being a troll. There is a separate metagame for ubers, period.Your post asked why Ubers are banned from standard play. I gave you a semi-lengthly response with just one example, and you tell me I'm repeating the obvious.
So, did you actually want to know why Ubers are banned in standard or are you just trying to make the point that Groudon doesn't destroy everything in Ubers as quickly as it does in standard. What Groudon does or does not destroy in Ubers is utterly irrelevant to its banning in standard play.
Ok? Is the point that because of the randomness of movesets on Mew, it's an uber?1.Mew is Banned,Jirachi and Celebi are not,Manaphy and Shaymin probaly won't be.All have the same stats,their best sets are similar ,you could probaly make an arguement for mew not being be banned but recover+good movepool+good type make people call it an uber.
The thing is with both of these Pokemon is that they are better than their lower-stat equivalents, which would further lower the amount of useable Pokemon in standard play.2.If rayquazza was allowed in standard play would you have to change your teams?The same thing for ho-oh?
Are you asking that if a few more ubers are let in, will high-stat nonubers be better?3.With TTar,Metagross,Garachomp,Salamence,Jirachi,Manaphy and others in standard play if darkrai,lati@s with out souldew,deoxy lg and E are allowed do these pokemon dominate or do they fit nicely in ?
Depends on the moveset Mew is using because it's so damn unpredictable. Salamence only has 3 real ways of assembling moves while Mew has 4++.My point is it how the metagame handles poke determines if it is uber.The counters for Jirachi, Celebi, are big part of the game,The counters for Mew are big part of the game too but Mew seems to handle those counters better.
That isn't the point; being uber isn't limited to what counters it possibly has, but whether or not it'd replace a majority of other Pokemon in standard play. Why use Dragonite or Salamence when you can use Rayquaza instead? Etc.The Second point was some pokemon that called are uber if they were allowed play would not be that big of deal.Because the current standards help keep them in check.
Um.If you make Ubers part of standard metagame though, there is no REASON to use Garchomp or Rhyperior or whoever.
Everyone will have the same team because there is no reason not to have Groudon/Arceus/Mewtwo, etc, etc, etc on the same team. It constricts the metagame because people will all use the same thing, not because they have to COUNTER certain things, but because those pokemon are the best that the game has to offer.
No, you said that Groudon would constrict the OU metagame more than Garchomp does, completely dodging the question. Garchomp constricts the UU metagame more than Kangaskahn, lets not have OU be standard anymore. I already know that Groudon is better than many OUs, so yes, you are repeating the obvious.Your post asked why Ubers are banned from standard play. I gave you a semi-lengthly response with just one example, and you tell me I'm repeating the obvious.
Iunno if you were being sarcastic, but that is my point. Why are Ubers banned? Because the presence of Ubers in a metagame considerably narrows your options in that metagame. At this point, banning Groudon/Mewtwo/Rayquaza/Lugia/Mew is hypocritical since they don't limit your options in Ubers any more than Garchomp does in OU.So, did you actually want to know why Ubers are banned in standard or are you just trying to make the point that Groudon doesn't destroy everything in Ubers as quickly as it does in standard. What Groudon does or does not destroy in Ubers is utterly irrelevant to its banning in standard play.
There's also no point in making OU the standard metagame then, since OU pokes already have their own tier all to themselves :/. Also, your definition of "standard" is incorrect. Standard is whatever tier is deemed to be standard :/The point is, there's no reason to making ubers be in the standard metagame, because ubers themselves already have a separate metagame all to themselves that you can play in already. "Standard" means anything that isn't uber playing in a metagame.
I don't want to sound like a "troll" again, but please read my post before you reply to it :/ :/ :/He's being a troll. There is a separate metagame for ubers, period.
Once again: WHY SHOULD ANY POKEMON BE BANNED FROM STANDARDOnce again: THIS THREAD IS TO DISCUSS THE DEFINITION OF AN UBER, SO WE CAN SEE WHICH POKEMON ARE BANNED FROM STANDARD PLAY.
Skarmory makes Solrock useless let's ban Skarmory etc etcThat isn't the point; being uber isn't limited to what counters it possibly has, but whether or not it'd replace a majority of other Pokemon in standard play. Why use Dragonite or Salamence when you can use Rayquaza instead? Etc.
With ubers the standard game has like 30 to 40 pokes in use,Without ubers the standard game has about 50 to 100 usable pokes.Simple as thatI know that there's a seperate metagame for Ubers. What I'm proposing is that the seperate metagame for ubers is made the "standard" metagame (which you'd know if you took the time to read what I'm typing ^_^!).
Once again: WHY SHOULD ANY POKEMON BE BANNED FROM STANDARD
We are talking about standard play?Why use Blissey over Miltank?Why use Swampert over Quag,Whishcash?Hell why use Inferape over Blaziken?Why because they are better.In fact you brought up the best point why use Dragonite when their is Salamence.The better poke is always used more lesser pokeThat isn't the point; being uber isn't limited to what counters it possibly has, but whether or not it'd replace a majority of other Pokemon in standard play. Why use Dragonite or Salamence when you can use Rayquaza instead? Etc.
Well, this perfectly answers my question.If the skill of the two players is equal, it's irrelevant. Then all that matters is the team, which is what this discussion is about. That's like saying "You guys are doing good discussing the damage formula in this thread about the damage formula, but you're forgetting about bracket making for tournaments."
Imagine, for a moment, that everything considered OU were suddenly uber, and the current UUs were the regular metagame. How many of your arguments against making ubers the "real" metagame and banning anything that still proves completely unbalancing would hold? If your argument doesn't still work, then you must either advocate banning all OUs as uber, or agree that "ubers" should be allowed.
Yes, why use Garchomp with Groudon allowed? I mean, this is why we've banned Salamence and Dragonite, because they make Altaria useless. And why Fearow, Swellow, Dodrio, and Staraptor have been banned, because we should be able to use Pidgeot. That's also why we've banned Swampert, it outclasses Whiscash. This argument can regress until we're down to Ditto, Unown, and Beldum, and then we decide that Beldum's typing is uber, and Ditto has the advantage over Unown because of Metal Powder. Unless you can say why the reasoning stops at the current definition of ubers, this reduction to absurdity holds and is, essentially, the position some of you support if taken to its logical conclusions.
What, you mean you don't support that? Why not? It seems to me like the arguments for starting with a tier of banned Pokemon and then trying to add more to that list seem to follow a lot of those assumptions.
Rather than defining uber, how about we define "standard"? In fact, I'd rather define "standard metagame". The standard (OU) metagame is the rule set that will be considered standard, obviously. I say it should allow as much as possible without becoming unbalanced.
Suicune and Milotic have always taken on Ho-oh easily, and Sacred Fire being physical might make that even easier, as the possibility of Thunderbolt or Solarbeam is reduced, and if it is present, will be weaker. Most Rocks with Rest (talk), Aromatherapy, or Heal Bell also stop it. Add in the omni-present threat of Stealth Rock and Ho-oh has to Recover every time it switches in (loses 50%), so no CB / CS / etc. for you, and your counter basically gets a free switch, unless Ho-oh wants to go Kamikaze, meaning suddenly your list of counters can increase to restless things that can OHKO and are faster, like an Aerodactyl. It's walled even better by Kyogre, and Lugia does a good job at stopping it.
How about Kyogre? Latias can stop almost all, unless it's unlucky. Lapras always wins if Kyogre doesn't have Thunder. Quagsire always wins if Kyogre doesn't have Ice Beam. Blissey beats those without Substitute / Rest, so how many moves does that mean? Without Surf, the list of counters suddenly increases a bit (only has Thunderbeam, really). So it needs Thunder, Ice Beam, Surf, Substitute / Rest to counter Quagsire, Lapras, and Blissey, but without Calm Mind, suddenly it's not a threat to Blissey anyway. There's the threat of Choice Specs Water Spout, but if Kyogre takes 25% damage (3 layers of Spikes, maybe? Switch into most any damaging attack?), Blissey is 3HKOed with 252 SDef and Calm (4 HP). Add in Water Spout's low PP (8), and Kyogre's going to have a bit of trouble. There's still, as I said, Latias.
A lot of the problem comes from people assuming OU and questioning ubers. They say "If we ban all current ubers but this one, will anything change? If so, keep it banned!" and then go down the list. The problem is, you're eliminating a lot of the counters by arbitrarily removing a bunch of Pokemon from the list of potential counters as you are considering those same Pokemon for unbanning. Whenever you think of an argument against this position, first replace OU with UU and uber with OU. If "only ubers can counter ubers" is your reason to keep them banned, try countering Tyranitar, Salamence, and Metagross with UUs.
My Question said:But the problem is, what separates the OU and the uber metagame? Is it just because the ubers are powerful legendaries, and then Wobba being thrown in there? How is this tier thing set up? What causes the line? Isn't a Rayquaza in ubers equivalent to Dragonite in standard? What's a "standard"? Is the OU metagame created just so that Kyogre won't run wild? Or is it that ubers are near uncounterable?