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Definition of an uber
- Thread starter Azrael
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Wobbuffet has no counter and was alreayd covered as why it's uber.
Once again, stop talking about specific Pokemon and stick to the original topic, please.
Funny Battle Tower Story:
My Lonely Rampardos vs. a Wobbuffet. I figured the little punching bag would Counter so I used Screech. It still survived Rock Slide to Counter which was very bg. Damn you Wobbuffet.
In any event, an Uber seems to have these observable characteristics:
1. 600+ Base stats.
Other pokemon can be used in Ubers, these guys make up the staples.
2. Ridiculously powerful/broadly useful trait.
Weather Ubers break the game wide open for anything compatible in addition to being beasts themselves. Pressure stalling is easy when you're in the 600+ Club. Wobby doesn't have 600+ Stats, but then again its attack stats are utterly useless anyway.
3. Hyper-powerful item booster. (Read: Soul Dew/Plates)
4. Broad, unpredictable movepool and/or sheer overwhelming offensive or defensive ability.
Groudon and Kyogre are relatively predictable, but have so much raw power that an effective response is nearly impossible. Deoxys/Mewtwo/Mew can do a bajillion things and only have thier movepools relatively set because of the threat of other Ubers. Don't even get me started on Arceus.
Under these circumstances, you could consider anything with 670+ stats Uber because they easily fit at least 3 of the above conditions. Deoxys also fits this mold, with speed staying in because it can pressure stall everything, its like a Dusknoir with 180 base speed.
Mitigating factors:
Type:
A Bad Type can ruin what would otherwise be an Uber. I won't start the discussions up again, but basically 4x weaks are anathema to Uber status. The problem is, only three pokemon considered for Ubers even have such a problem, Rayquaza, Ho-oh and Tyranitar. Rayquaza is basically Deoxys with Dragon Dance and actual defensive stats, and I nearly guarentee Ho-oh and Stealth Rock use are perfect inverse related (e.g. as Stealth Rock slides down in use, Ho-oh slides up by the same amount.) I will not get into the TTar debate, but what I will say is TTar's trait boosts a stat it doesn't take hits on much and generates the weather most likely to backfire on your team.
Trait: Read: Shadow Tag(for considering), Truant and Slow Start(for dropping)
My Lonely Rampardos vs. a Wobbuffet. I figured the little punching bag would Counter so I used Screech. It still survived Rock Slide to Counter which was very bg. Damn you Wobbuffet.
In any event, an Uber seems to have these observable characteristics:
1. 600+ Base stats.
Other pokemon can be used in Ubers, these guys make up the staples.
2. Ridiculously powerful/broadly useful trait.
Weather Ubers break the game wide open for anything compatible in addition to being beasts themselves. Pressure stalling is easy when you're in the 600+ Club. Wobby doesn't have 600+ Stats, but then again its attack stats are utterly useless anyway.
3. Hyper-powerful item booster. (Read: Soul Dew/Plates)
4. Broad, unpredictable movepool and/or sheer overwhelming offensive or defensive ability.
Groudon and Kyogre are relatively predictable, but have so much raw power that an effective response is nearly impossible. Deoxys/Mewtwo/Mew can do a bajillion things and only have thier movepools relatively set because of the threat of other Ubers. Don't even get me started on Arceus.
Under these circumstances, you could consider anything with 670+ stats Uber because they easily fit at least 3 of the above conditions. Deoxys also fits this mold, with speed staying in because it can pressure stall everything, its like a Dusknoir with 180 base speed.
Mitigating factors:
Type:
A Bad Type can ruin what would otherwise be an Uber. I won't start the discussions up again, but basically 4x weaks are anathema to Uber status. The problem is, only three pokemon considered for Ubers even have such a problem, Rayquaza, Ho-oh and Tyranitar. Rayquaza is basically Deoxys with Dragon Dance and actual defensive stats, and I nearly guarentee Ho-oh and Stealth Rock use are perfect inverse related (e.g. as Stealth Rock slides down in use, Ho-oh slides up by the same amount.) I will not get into the TTar debate, but what I will say is TTar's trait boosts a stat it doesn't take hits on much and generates the weather most likely to backfire on your team.
Trait: Read: Shadow Tag(for considering), Truant and Slow Start(for dropping)
Why are Ubers banned? I would say that they're banned in standard play because they constrict the metagame too much (correct me if I'm wrong here). This works well for RBY and GSC, and even RS to a certain extent, but I don't see that argument holding much water in D/P.
Looking at the list of pokemon that would be viable in D/P Ubers:
Arceus
Blissey
Darkrai
Deoxys (All forms; yes, even Speed)
Dialga
Exeggutor
Garchomp
Giratina
Groudon
Ho-oh
Jirachi
Kyogre
Latias
Latios
Lugia
Metagross
Mew
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Regice
Snorlax
Wobbufett
Tyranitar
And maybe a few I'm forgetting. That's about twenty pokemon right there, which is just as many viable ones as in top-tier RS. Why can't the Uber metagame become standard play for competitive D/P? It looks like a blast to play, and a fairly even distribution of power (except for a couple . . . ugh). Just like in early twentieth century Europe, each of these are kept in check by another pokemon, and you could even argue that there are fewer "must counter" threats in Ubers than in OU (which lets you be more creative with team building which is a good thing).
Looking at the list of pokemon that would be viable in D/P Ubers:
Arceus
Blissey
Darkrai
Deoxys (All forms; yes, even Speed)
Dialga
Exeggutor
Garchomp
Giratina
Groudon
Ho-oh
Jirachi
Kyogre
Latias
Latios
Lugia
Metagross
Mew
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Regice
Snorlax
Wobbufett
Tyranitar
And maybe a few I'm forgetting. That's about twenty pokemon right there, which is just as many viable ones as in top-tier RS. Why can't the Uber metagame become standard play for competitive D/P? It looks like a blast to play, and a fairly even distribution of power (except for a couple . . . ugh). Just like in early twentieth century Europe, each of these are kept in check by another pokemon, and you could even argue that there are fewer "must counter" threats in Ubers than in OU (which lets you be more creative with team building which is a good thing).
... I made the topic.
EDIT: Agh I hit the reply button but my computer is a piece of trash and was going so slowly I decided to hit the reply button again but it already posted agh
good thing people posted before me so I can use this post to reply to them.
Did you read my post? I suggested making standard play be in Ubers.
Reading comprehension: it's occasionally useful.
good thing people posted before me so I can use this post to reply to them.
Did you read my post? I suggested making standard play be in Ubers.
Reading comprehension: it's occasionally useful.
The point of that post was probably the point that was heavily debated in the pre-DP era; why don't be make the Uber metagame the "Standard" metagame? After all, there are plenty of those beastly pokemon now, about just as many as OU has.
I still disagree with that though, as I always thought of the Uber tier as a "banned" list. Basically, they were too powerful for the majority of Pokemon to handle and had very few counters. If a Pokemon could make the metagame center around itself, then it would be uber.
I'm wondering if Arceus will get it's own tier, GOD, though. No THREE Pokemon can counter every different form/movesets Arceus can take on. It's that powerful.
Because they constrict the OU Metagame Way More than Gyarados/Garchomp/TTar.
Put simply: You have a choice between Garchomp, Rhyperior, or Groudon.
Groudon has the highest attack.
Groudon has the highest defense.
Groudon has the highest special defense.
Groudon's speed is only marginally smaller than Garchomp's and can still exceed 300 with a Jolly nature.
Groudon's HP is only marginally smaller than either Rhyperior or Garchomp
Groudon doesn't have any 4x weaks and has generally fewer 2x weaks (esp. compared to Rhyperior).
In addition to being immune to Sandstorm if TTar or Hippowdon idiotically comes in, it also clears the field of Sandstorm and boosts every single fire and Chrolophyll Grass type on your team, and reduces Groudon's damage from water types more than Rhyperior's Hard Rock.
In short, Groudon is so game-breakingly powerful that it beats the stuffing out of other pokemon deemed to be game-breakingly powerful.
OUs are also better than UUs.
Now that we're done repeating obvious things (Groudon is better than Garchomp!!!!!), you might want to read my post. Groudonis less dominating IN UBERS than Garchomp is IN OU. You don't need to devote a pokemon or two to countering Groudon which gives you more creativity with team building which is good.
Now that we're done repeating obvious things (Groudon is better than Garchomp!!!!!), you might want to read my post. Groudonis less dominating IN UBERS than Garchomp is IN OU. You don't need to devote a pokemon or two to countering Groudon which gives you more creativity with team building which is good.
If you make Ubers part of standard metagame though, there is no REASON to use Garchomp or Rhyperior or whoever.
Everyone will have the same team because there is no reason not to have Groudon/Arceus/Mewtwo, etc, etc, etc on the same team. It constricts the metagame because people will all use the same thing, not because they have to COUNTER certain things, but because those pokemon are the best that the game has to offer.
Everyone will have the same team because there is no reason not to have Groudon/Arceus/Mewtwo, etc, etc, etc on the same team. It constricts the metagame because people will all use the same thing, not because they have to COUNTER certain things, but because those pokemon are the best that the game has to offer.
Your post asked why Ubers are banned from standard play. I gave you a semi-lengthly response with just one example, and you tell me I'm repeating the obvious.
So, did you actually want to know why Ubers are banned in standard or are you just trying to make the point that Groudon doesn't destroy everything in Ubers as quickly as it does in standard. What Groudon does or does not destroy in Ubers is utterly irrelevant to its banning in standard play.
Hey! Don't be a fucking douchebag, thanks.
The point is, there's no reason to making ubers be in the standard metagame, because ubers themselves already have a separate metagame all to themselves that you can play in already. "Standard" means anything that isn't uber playing in a metagame.
Plus that was totally off-topic. Don't mock my intelligence when you can't even stick to the OT. :(
He's being a troll. There is a separate metagame for ubers, period.
Once again: THIS THREAD IS TO DISCUSS THE DEFINITION OF AN UBER, SO WE CAN SEE WHICH POKEMON ARE BANNED FROM STANDARD PLAY.
Read: Standard play: The metagame in which ubers are banned from.
Back onto topic: We need something to first base off what an uber is. Cromat suggested using base stats. I think that's a good start. Why? Because most ubers do indeed have a total base stat of 600+. My suggestion was that if the majority or nearly the majority of counters for these Pokemon are ones with 600+ base stats themselves, we can assume that makes them uber.
Of course this excludes Wobba, but it's already covered as to why he's uber.
I still think pokemon that can't attack unless attacked,and they are several measure to deal with it is not an uber but that is beside the point it need to banned anyway,It is going to be interesting to see if still banned with uturn and other measures in place in d/p.
Back on topic,It is kind of subjective thing it is not stats,power level,or sweeping ability.A couple of things
1.Mew is Banned,Jirachi and Celebi are not,Manaphy and Shaymin probaly won't be.All have the same stats,their best sets are similar ,you could probaly make an arguement for mew not being be banned but recover+good movepool+good type make people call it an uber.
2.If rayquazza was allowed in standard play would you have to change your teams?The same thing for ho-oh?
3.With TTar,Metagross,Garachomp,Salamence,Jirachi,Manaphy and others in standard play if darkrai,lati@s with out souldew,deoxy lg and E are allowed do these pokemon dominate or do they fit nicely in ?
Back on topic,It is kind of subjective thing it is not stats,power level,or sweeping ability.A couple of things
1.Mew is Banned,Jirachi and Celebi are not,Manaphy and Shaymin probaly won't be.All have the same stats,their best sets are similar ,you could probaly make an arguement for mew not being be banned but recover+good movepool+good type make people call it an uber.
2.If rayquazza was allowed in standard play would you have to change your teams?The same thing for ho-oh?
3.With TTar,Metagross,Garachomp,Salamence,Jirachi,Manaphy and others in standard play if darkrai,lati@s with out souldew,deoxy lg and E are allowed do these pokemon dominate or do they fit nicely in ?
Ok? Is the point that because of the randomness of movesets on Mew, it's an uber?
The thing is with both of these Pokemon is that they are better than their lower-stat equivalents, which would further lower the amount of useable Pokemon in standard play.
Are you asking that if a few more ubers are let in, will high-stat nonubers be better?
My point is it how the metagame handles poke determines if it is uber.The counters for Jirachi, Celebi, are big part of the game,The counters for Mew are big part of the game too but Mew seems to handle those counters better.
The Second point was some pokemon that called are uber if they were allowed play would not be that big of deal.Because the current standards help keep them in check.
The Second point was some pokemon that called are uber if they were allowed play would not be that big of deal.Because the current standards help keep them in check.
Depends on the moveset Mew is using because it's so damn unpredictable. Salamence only has 3 real ways of assembling moves while Mew has 4++.
That isn't the point; being uber isn't limited to what counters it possibly has, but whether or not it'd replace a majority of other Pokemon in standard play. Why use Dragonite or Salamence when you can use Rayquaza instead? Etc.
Um.
In OU, there's no reason not to use Blissey/Salamence/Heracross/Garchomp/Cresselia etc etc on every team. They constrict OU more than Groudon and Mewtwo constrict Ubers, but you don't see people whining about not making OU be standard.
No, you said that Groudon would constrict the OU metagame more than Garchomp does, completely dodging the question. Garchomp constricts the UU metagame more than Kangaskahn, lets not have OU be standard anymore. I already know that Groudon is better than many OUs, so yes, you are repeating the obvious.
Remember, post length =/= correctness.
Iunno if you were being sarcastic, but that is my point. Why are Ubers banned? Because the presence of Ubers in a metagame considerably narrows your options in that metagame. At this point, banning Groudon/Mewtwo/Rayquaza/Lugia/Mew is hypocritical since they don't limit your options in Ubers any more than Garchomp does in OU.
There's also no point in making OU the standard metagame then, since OU pokes already have their own tier all to themselves :/. Also, your definition of "standard" is incorrect. Standard is whatever tier is deemed to be standard :/
I don't want to sound like a "troll" again, but please read my post before you reply to it :/ :/ :/
I know that there's a seperate metagame for Ubers. What I'm proposing is that the seperate metagame for ubers is made the "standard" metagame (which you'd know if you took the time to read what I'm typing ^_^!).
Once again: WHY SHOULD ANY POKEMON BE BANNED FROM STANDARD
I don't think you guys are getting the point I'm trying to make. Stop thinking in terms of RS tiers and just imagine that everything was legal. Why should fifteen or so pokemon be singled out and banned? They don't constrict the metagame and there's plenty of viable pokemon around with them legal, so why does everybody have this urge to ban them?
EDIT:
Skarmory makes Solrock useless let's ban Skarmory etc etc
you guys are doing the right things here, calculating stats and comparing them. strength/weakness analysis with pokes 600+ stat total. but i think you are missing a key piece, the actual skill of the player. talk it out. thanks
With ubers the standard game has like 30 to 40 pokes in use,Without ubers the standard game has about 50 to 100 usable pokes.Simple as that
We are talking about standard play?Why use Blissey over Miltank?Why use Swampert over Quag,Whishcash?Hell why use Inferape over Blaziken?Why because they are better.In fact you brought up the best point why use Dragonite when their is Salamence.The better poke is always used more lesser poke
The question should be can common pokes game consistantly stop the poke and does and does poke eliminate a large majority of other pokes from standard game.
If the skill of the two players is equal, it's irrelevant. Then all that matters is the team, which is what this discussion is about. That's like saying "You guys are doing good discussing the damage formula in this thread about the damage formula, but you're forgetting about bracket making for tournaments."
Imagine, for a moment, that everything considered OU were suddenly uber, and the current UUs were the regular metagame. How many of your arguments against making ubers the "real" metagame and banning anything that still proves completely unbalancing would hold? If your argument doesn't still work, then you must either advocate banning all OUs as uber, or agree that "ubers" should be allowed.
Yes, why use Garchomp with Groudon allowed? I mean, this is why we've banned Salamence and Dragonite, because they make Altaria useless. And why Fearow, Swellow, Dodrio, and Staraptor have been banned, because we should be able to use Pidgeot. That's also why we've banned Swampert, it outclasses Whiscash. This argument can regress until we're down to Ditto, Unown, and Beldum, and then we decide that Beldum's typing is uber, and Ditto has the advantage over Unown because of Metal Powder. Unless you can say why the reasoning stops at the current definition of ubers, this reduction to absurdity holds and is, essentially, the position some of you support if taken to its logical conclusions.
What, you mean you don't support that? Why not? It seems to me like the arguments for starting with a tier of banned Pokemon and then trying to add more to that list seem to follow a lot of those assumptions.
Rather than defining uber, how about we define "standard"? In fact, I'd rather define "standard metagame". The standard (OU) metagame is the rule set that will be considered standard, obviously. I say it should allow as much as possible without becoming unbalanced.
Suicune and Milotic have always taken on Ho-oh easily, and Sacred Fire being physical might make that even easier, as the possibility of Thunderbolt or Solarbeam is reduced, and if it is present, will be weaker. Most Rocks with Rest (talk), Aromatherapy, or Heal Bell also stop it. Add in the omni-present threat of Stealth Rock and Ho-oh has to Recover every time it switches in (loses 50%), so no CB / CS / etc. for you, and your counter basically gets a free switch, unless Ho-oh wants to go Kamikaze, meaning suddenly your list of counters can increase to restless things that can OHKO and are faster, like an Aerodactyl. It's walled even better by Kyogre, and Lugia does a good job at stopping it.
How about Kyogre? Latias can stop almost all, unless it's unlucky. Lapras always wins if Kyogre doesn't have Thunder. Quagsire always wins if Kyogre doesn't have Ice Beam. Blissey beats those without Substitute / Rest, so how many moves does that mean? Without Surf, the list of counters suddenly increases a bit (only has Thunderbeam, really). So it needs Thunder, Ice Beam, Surf, Substitute / Rest to counter Quagsire, Lapras, and Blissey, but without Calm Mind, suddenly it's not a threat to Blissey anyway. There's the threat of Choice Specs Water Spout, but if Kyogre takes 25% damage (3 layers of Spikes, maybe? Switch into most any damaging attack?), Blissey is 3HKOed with 252 SDef and Calm (4 HP). Add in Water Spout's low PP (8), and Kyogre's going to have a bit of trouble. There's still, as I said, Latias.
A lot of the problem comes from people assuming OU and questioning ubers. They say "If we ban all current ubers but this one, will anything change? If so, keep it banned!" and then go down the list. The problem is, you're eliminating a lot of the counters by arbitrarily removing a bunch of Pokemon from the list of potential counters as you are considering those same Pokemon for unbanning. Whenever you think of an argument against this position, first replace OU with UU and uber with OU. If "only ubers can counter ubers" is your reason to keep them banned, try countering Tyranitar, Salamence, and Metagross with UUs.
Imagine, for a moment, that everything considered OU were suddenly uber, and the current UUs were the regular metagame. How many of your arguments against making ubers the "real" metagame and banning anything that still proves completely unbalancing would hold? If your argument doesn't still work, then you must either advocate banning all OUs as uber, or agree that "ubers" should be allowed.
Yes, why use Garchomp with Groudon allowed? I mean, this is why we've banned Salamence and Dragonite, because they make Altaria useless. And why Fearow, Swellow, Dodrio, and Staraptor have been banned, because we should be able to use Pidgeot. That's also why we've banned Swampert, it outclasses Whiscash. This argument can regress until we're down to Ditto, Unown, and Beldum, and then we decide that Beldum's typing is uber, and Ditto has the advantage over Unown because of Metal Powder. Unless you can say why the reasoning stops at the current definition of ubers, this reduction to absurdity holds and is, essentially, the position some of you support if taken to its logical conclusions.
What, you mean you don't support that? Why not? It seems to me like the arguments for starting with a tier of banned Pokemon and then trying to add more to that list seem to follow a lot of those assumptions.
Rather than defining uber, how about we define "standard"? In fact, I'd rather define "standard metagame". The standard (OU) metagame is the rule set that will be considered standard, obviously. I say it should allow as much as possible without becoming unbalanced.
Suicune and Milotic have always taken on Ho-oh easily, and Sacred Fire being physical might make that even easier, as the possibility of Thunderbolt or Solarbeam is reduced, and if it is present, will be weaker. Most Rocks with Rest (talk), Aromatherapy, or Heal Bell also stop it. Add in the omni-present threat of Stealth Rock and Ho-oh has to Recover every time it switches in (loses 50%), so no CB / CS / etc. for you, and your counter basically gets a free switch, unless Ho-oh wants to go Kamikaze, meaning suddenly your list of counters can increase to restless things that can OHKO and are faster, like an Aerodactyl. It's walled even better by Kyogre, and Lugia does a good job at stopping it.
How about Kyogre? Latias can stop almost all, unless it's unlucky. Lapras always wins if Kyogre doesn't have Thunder. Quagsire always wins if Kyogre doesn't have Ice Beam. Blissey beats those without Substitute / Rest, so how many moves does that mean? Without Surf, the list of counters suddenly increases a bit (only has Thunderbeam, really). So it needs Thunder, Ice Beam, Surf, Substitute / Rest to counter Quagsire, Lapras, and Blissey, but without Calm Mind, suddenly it's not a threat to Blissey anyway. There's the threat of Choice Specs Water Spout, but if Kyogre takes 25% damage (3 layers of Spikes, maybe? Switch into most any damaging attack?), Blissey is 3HKOed with 252 SDef and Calm (4 HP). Add in Water Spout's low PP (8), and Kyogre's going to have a bit of trouble. There's still, as I said, Latias.
A lot of the problem comes from people assuming OU and questioning ubers. They say "If we ban all current ubers but this one, will anything change? If so, keep it banned!" and then go down the list. The problem is, you're eliminating a lot of the counters by arbitrarily removing a bunch of Pokemon from the list of potential counters as you are considering those same Pokemon for unbanning. Whenever you think of an argument against this position, first replace OU with UU and uber with OU. If "only ubers can counter ubers" is your reason to keep them banned, try countering Tyranitar, Salamence, and Metagross with UUs.
Ubers is a mindset left over from RBYGSC. In RBY, only Mew and Mewtwo were ubers, making banning them easy, since Amnesia Mewtwo was impossible to counter. In GSC, there were five ubers, not all of which had very good counters. What Pokemon could 2HKO Lugia if it always had Max HP, Def, and SDef? Mewtwo with Shadow Ball might have been able to, but couldn't Lugia run Shadow Ball to counter Mewtwo? So basically, the metagame was still too small for ubers.
In ADV, we have a list of what, 16-17 Ubers. Today, the ADV Uber metagame has stablilized to were every uber has a counter. See Obi's example of Kyogre having three counters, two of those being non-Uber. Sure, stuff like SD Groudon takes a Lugia to counter, but doesn't CG Mence practically require every team to have Blissey, Cresselia, or Empoleon? You give me an Uber that cannot be countered at all, and then I'll say ban it. The only one I can think of is Arceus, simply because it can be 17 pokemon at once. But wait, doesn't Arceus tell you what type it is? So wouldn't you counter a Ground Arceus like you would Groudon? Look, Arceus already makes there be 17 usable pokemon in the "uber" metagame.
Also, isn't Uber Metagame an oxymoron? An Uber is something that overcentralizes the metagame, yet a metagame exists with Ubers?
In ADV, we have a list of what, 16-17 Ubers. Today, the ADV Uber metagame has stablilized to were every uber has a counter. See Obi's example of Kyogre having three counters, two of those being non-Uber. Sure, stuff like SD Groudon takes a Lugia to counter, but doesn't CG Mence practically require every team to have Blissey, Cresselia, or Empoleon? You give me an Uber that cannot be countered at all, and then I'll say ban it. The only one I can think of is Arceus, simply because it can be 17 pokemon at once. But wait, doesn't Arceus tell you what type it is? So wouldn't you counter a Ground Arceus like you would Groudon? Look, Arceus already makes there be 17 usable pokemon in the "uber" metagame.
Also, isn't Uber Metagame an oxymoron? An Uber is something that overcentralizes the metagame, yet a metagame exists with Ubers?
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