Deoxys-D Discussion - It's not all about speed.

[Darkmalice]

I voted no. First off, many of your calculations assume the attacker has its attack boosted by SD, DD etc, and without those boosts, many of the 2HKOS are lost e.g. LO Scizor with Bullet Punch, LO Gyarados with Waterfall.

But more importantly, it is a terrific team support pokemon. It has Spikes, SR, DS and even Taunt. Great defences both physically and defensively, Recover, and it cannot be trapped by Magnezone, whilst it can stall out Dugtrio with Recover and Pressure. In my opinion, its Uber more for the Support characteristic than the Defensive (and it's physical defence capibility is about equal to Skarmory's, excluding typing) - its very hard to kill, and it can easily set up Spikes.

Sure, it gets owned by Taunt, but the turn wasted swapping in that Taunt user is a turn used to set up a Spikes. If need be, it even has Agility to avoid such a situation.

It will give stall teams a major boost in power. Spikes (and SR) can be removed by Rapid Spin, but this is incredibly difficult in Platinum thanks to Rotom-a, and Brick Break is rarely seen on teams to eliminate DS. On the topic of DS, it's speed is high for a wall, beating even Cresselia's. It can easily be EVed to outspeed Scizor and Tyranitar, and use Reflect before being hit by X-Scissor or Crunch. In the case of Ttar, this means it can use Reflect on a CB Ttar, and escape without being OHKOed by Crunch or Pursuit.

 

[Relictivity]

About Garchomp weaknesses...

Are you forcing everyone to run mamoswine and weavile on their team? No, that definately will not due. In fact, Ice Shard may be a bit too exclusive.

Also, Deoxys can come in and setup on stallers, so rather than make them stronger, I think it makes them weaker. See previous posts for examples of how the setup works.

 

[IcyMan28]

Damage Calculation and Base stats are not everything, you have to look deeper into the situation. Do you have any idea how easy it is to lay down these entry hazards? PP Stall you? Toxic Stall you? to top it off if it ever got hurt access to Recovery makes you forget about its base 50 HP.

If nothing else, its 50 base HP means that it will have to recover more often, giving the opponent a free turn. Laying down entry hazards is easy in pretty much all situations as well; just wait for a switch. Furthermore, you act like Deoxys-L is going to be carrying all of those moves at once. Without Taunt, it is itself shut down and prone to setup. With Taunt, it only gets one entry hazard.

Deoxys-L isn't the only pokemon that can Toxic Stall / PP Stall, either. As far as Toxic Stalling is concerned, who's to say that it won't be poisoned itself? What's worse is that it has no way to deal with the plethora of steel types that could care less about Toxic (Spikes).

To me, test it or not, getting it to OU should never be a discussion, actions speak louder than words and a simple test will show how easily this guy will be a staples to a team whenever you need a versatile wall.

A simple test will show how easily it becomes a staple? Let's do it then.

This is actually the main reason why I feel Deoxys-D is NOT a suspect. I mean, unlike Cresselia or Uxie, Deoxys has a very reliable recovery move in...well...recover. If you can't more than 50% to it (with boosted attacks, I must add), it is more than able to put down spikes, recover when needed and pressure pp stall the hell out of you.

Point taken. Regardless, Deoxys-L needs to carry Taunt to prevent itself from becoming setup fodder. So it has, again, only 1 extra support slot, is very prone to Toxic, still has lefties recovery negated by the ever-present Sandstorm, and will be set up on / Tricked once the Taunt wears off. All of the strategies are common, too, so its not like it requires novel options.

Hell, if you want to really wall everything, you can always add Cosmic Power and see how magically you are even able to stall CB Tyranitar out of its pursuits. And that is even easier if you consider that Deoxys is actually faster than T-tar (with measily 24 EVs on Spd you will outspeed all Adamant versions).

This is equally applicable to Uxie or Cresselia, give or take a few EVs.

CB T-Tar Pursuit vs +1 Deoxys-D: 604 Atk vs 594 Def & 304 HP (40 Base Power): 90 - 108 (29.61% - 35.53%)

Nice, isn't it?

I'll admit that it is quite effective (and allows you to stay in to maybe get in another layer of spikes), but losing a third of your health on average (plus 6% more from Sand) is still significant.

I'm neutral on this one right now, but I know there is always more than meets the eye for any Deoxys. His moveset is huge, and he has Recover unlike Dusknoir...

So are you saying that you would rather keep Deoxys-L Uber even though you aren't 100% sure of that status, BEFORE the suspect test?

I voted no. First off, many of your calculations assume the attacker has its attack boosted by SD, DD etc, and without those boosts, many of the 2HKOS are lost e.g. LO Scizor with Bullet Punch, LO Gyarados with Waterfall.

This may be so, but I used the most common sets, items, and EVs listed in the statistics. Taunt will only last for so long, meaning that LO Gyara will get that DD, Scizor will be able to throw in a SD after attacking multiple times with X-Scissor, etc. And Taunt doesn't even affect the choice users that will start at +1.

But more importantly, it is a terrific team support pokemon. It has Spikes, SR, DS and even Taunt. Great defences both physically and defensively, Recover, and it cannot be trapped by Magnezone, whilst it can stall out Dugtrio with Recover and Pressure. In my opinion, its Uber more for the Support characteristic than the Defensive (and it's physical defence capibility is about equal to Skarmory's, excluding typing) - its very hard to kill, and it can easily set up Spikes.

If the support options do it for you, I can respect that.

Sure, it gets owned by Taunt, but the turn wasted swapping in that Taunt user is a turn used to set up a Spikes. If need be, it even has Agility to avoid such a situation.

If you must resort to using Agility on a wall to avoid an issue, then that is an indication of a major problem for it. In Deoxys-L's case, it takes up an already crucial moveslot. You've got Agility + Recover + Taunt + Support. If that last slot isn't Toxic, you've pretty much got to rely entirely on other support to take out a counter. If you opt for an attacking move over Taunt, you still get Taunted and lose.

It will give stall teams a major boost in power. Spikes (and SR) can be removed by Rapid Spin, but this is incredibly difficult in Platinum thanks to Rotom-a, and Brick Break is rarely seen on teams to eliminate DS. On the topic of DS, it's speed is high for a wall, beating even Cresselia's. It can easily be EVed to outspeed Scizor and Tyranitar, and use Reflect before being hit by X-Scissor or Crunch. In the case of Ttar, this means it can use Reflect on a CB Ttar, and escape without being OHKOed by Crunch or Pursuit.

Spinblocking, as I've mentioned, is a viable strategy regarding all pokemon that set up entry hazards - this doesn't really prove anything about Deoxys-L. Further, what is the problem with stall getting a major power boost? I could just as easily argue that stall teams NEED a power boost to be able to compete with the hyperoffensive style of the metagame today.

Thoughts in bold.

 

[Relictivity]

Damage Calculation and Base stats are not everything, you have to look deeper into the situation. Do you have any idea how easy it is to lay down these entry hazards? PP Stall you? Toxic Stall you? to top it off if it ever got hurt access to Recovery makes you forget about its base 50 HP.

To me, test it or not, getting it to OU should never be a discussion, actions speak louder than words and a simple test will show how easily this guy will be a staples to a team whenever you need a versatile wall.

I agree with Icy Man here, the spikes will actually help the enviroment as it will force all out offense teams to do something about it.

However, renember, Deoxys is also going to centralize the metagame because it can set up easily if you lost/don't have T-Tar or the other pokemon discussed.

Oh yeah, Icy Man, although not many teams have it, if you ran a combo of two normals, you could force Deoxys out by switching (it would be boring though).

 

[RaikouLover]

My personal opinion is that this thing doesn't deserve to be in OU, nor would I ever want to fight it. I hate taking out Cresselia as it is, and Tyranitar isn't one of my favorite pokemon. But seeing something like this able to stack Spikes is just ewww. It will have 3 layers up before you know it... and with all the Rotom rage you really can't bother spinning. I'll pass...

 

[Relictivity]

My personal opinion is that this thing doesn't deserve to be in OU, nor would I ever want to fight it. I hate taking out Cresselia as it is, and Tyranitar isn't one of my favorite pokemon. But seeing something like this able to stack Spikes is just ewww. It will have 3 layers up before you know it... and with all the Rotom rage you really can't bother spinning. I'll pass...

Icy Man, is there any other pokemon that can 2HKO Deoxys? Because from what we have discussed, Deoxys has problems with Scizor, nightmares because of Tyranitar, and is shivering with fear because of all the choicers in OU. No, it won't be able to get down 3 layers of spikes unless you let it. And spinning is alot easier than taking down a Salamence with 2 dragon dances.

 

[IcyMan28]

Icy Man, is there any other pokemon that can 2HKO Deoxys? Because from what we have discussed, Deoxys has problems with Scizor, nightmares because of Tyranitar, and is shivering with fear because of all the choicers in OU. No, it won't be able to get down 3 layers of spikes unless you let it. And spinning is alot easier than taking down a Salamence with 2 dragon dances.

Not sure whether you were adressing me intentionally or just made a mistake, but I think there are a few more that do significant damage. Deoxys-L will have max HP and a stat of 460 in the appropriate defense:

-252 Modest Specsmence manages: 525 Atk vs 460 Def & 304 HP (140 Base Power): 172 - 204 (56.58% - 67.11%) with Draco Meteor on the first hit, and does 262 Atk vs 460 Def & 304 HP (140 Base Power): 85 - 102 (27.96% - 33.55%) on the second. A very slim chance of 2HKO, but it does 84% minimum combined.

-252 Modest Latias (with Specs) does the same, by extension (and it now has enough votes; its OU).

-Gengar also causes issues for Deoxys-L, obviously.

-LO Mamoswine 2HKOs 21% of the time with Stealth Rock, and CBMamo 2HKOs 100% with SR, 35% without. Both using EQ and Adamant btw.

-252 Modest SpecsTran 2HKOs 100% of the time with Fire Blast regardless.

-252 Modest Rotom-A 2HKOs 19.79% of the time with SR; LO boosts that up to 100% 2HKO (78.96 with Lefties); Specs (which is probably even more used than LO for Trick) grants a 100% 2HKO as well obviously. 2HKOing with SE moves isn't that impressive, but it does the job.

-252 +Sp.A LO Kingdra 2HKOs with Hydro Pump in Rain.

-252 Modest SpecsZone has a 98.62% chance of 2HKO using Thunderbolt with SR; a 2.43% to 2HKO without.

-252 Jolly Expert Belt Weavile has an 81.66% chance to 2HKO with Night Slash; obviously Heracross can destroy it with Megahorn - it can also use a CB Pursuit to catch it, I guess.

-252 Timid SpecsJolt has a 28.21% chance to 2HKO with Shadow Ball.

 

[Relictivity]

Thanks Icy Man, I was mostly adressing Raikou Lover, but for that single statement, was adressing you. I just wanted to give Raikou Lover some examples of pokemon that could adress the problem other than Tyranitar.

 

[Setrack]

About Garchomp weaknesses...

Are you forcing everyone to run mamoswine and weavile on their team? No, that definately will not due. In fact, Ice Shard may be a bit too exclusive.

Also, Deoxys can come in and setup on stallers, so rather than make them stronger, I think it makes them weaker. See previous posts for examples of how the setup works.

its not like mamoswine/weavile are pointless. you dont complain about people being forced to carry heatran/gyarados/zapdos or whatever for scizor do you?

 

[Colonel M]

Cresselia? Pursuit-bait.

I think Deoxys-D would be a bit overcentralizing... in the fact of it can lay down entry hazards with little troubles. Granted, the Taunt / Cosmic Power / Seismic Toss / Recover set may seem threatening on paper... but a simple Tentacruel nerfs it's potential. In fact, any spinner would force this set out for one reason: blocking Rapid Spin. It's a first instinct and such.

But to get to the point, it's not Deoxys-D's offensive movepool that scares me. It is a combination of its defensive and support strategies. Hated Bronzong laying double Screens? How about this thing? It has Recover to top it off. And Taunt too! It can lay both Spikes and Stealth Rock; most of the time with little problems.

Pokemon like Tyranitar and Scizor could handle it alright... but it's massive defensive stats would suggest these two to use their harder STAB options (Crunch and U-Turn / X-Scissor) than to attempt to Pursuit it out. IMO, Deoxys-D would just cause grief in the metagame.

I'm not 100% against testing it, but I feel that if it was, it wouldn't last very long in OU.

 

[Relictivity]

Cresselia? Pursuit-bait.

I think Deoxys-D would be a bit overcentralizing... in the fact of it can lay down entry hazards with little troubles. Granted, the Taunt / Cosmic Power / Seismic Toss / Recover set may seem threatening on paper... but a simple Tentacruel nerfs it's potential. In fact, any spinner would force this set out for one reason: blocking Rapid Spin. It's a first instinct and such.

We discussed this set, but with night shade, it works better. And it cannot lay down entry hazards without trouble, as the first thing people will do will go to their wallbreakers. Good Deoxys-E breakers are shown in Icy Man's previous post.

But to get to the point, it's not Deoxys-D's offensive movepool that scares me. It is a combination of its defensive and support strategies. Hated Bronzong laying double Screens? How about this thing? It has Recover to top it off. And Taunt too! It can lay both Spikes and Stealth Rock; most of the time with little problems.

Yes it is scary. But isn't +2 Attack, +2 Speed Mixed Mence even more scary?

Pokemon like Tyranitar and Scizor could handle it alright... but it's massive defensive stats would suggest these two to use their harder STAB options (Crunch and U-Turn / X-Scissor) than to attempt to Pursuit it out. IMO, Deoxys-D would just cause grief in the metagame.

Yes, Tyranitar has a 50% chance to destroy Deoxys forever. And again, less grief than Mence (in my opinion).

I'm not 100% against testing it, but I feel that if it was, it wouldn't last very long in OU.

Responses in Bold

For Setrack: I just downloaded shoddy, but have teambuilt for some time. Scizor, Mence, and others are the reason I would rather not play OU. Stallers cannot keep up with the offensive threats. In order for that to happen, Attackers, Special Attackers, and Mixes must have better walls. I currently only see Blissey (Special Attackers) who is quite prone to getting set up on.

 

[blasphemy1]

If any of you have played the Pokemon card game, Deoxys-L is extremely comparable to Claydol. Although it is a fantastic support pokemon, it isn't doing much damage other than indirect(in the case of Claydol this is like drawing power). He isn't much of an offensive threat, yet can attack if necessary. To me, banning a support pokemon for support characteristics alone is ridiculous. I have been here(smogon) for quite some time now, and I understand most of the rules and policies, but I don't understand banning a pokemon for its supporting characteristics. Think of Spikes / Stealth Rock simply as a boosting item, that take several turns to set up. Would we ban Choice Band simply because it provides an immediate boost? Of course not, and we are talking about 1-4 turns, depending on how many layers of Spikes and/or Stealth Rock, not to mention there are a couple of other worthwhile pokemon that learn both(Forretress, Skarmory).

I know these aren't the only reasons Deoxys-L would be declared Uber, however I think the issue of Reflect / Light Screen is about as negotiable as Stealth Rock, although DS provides much better support if you can't get rid of it. DS can be removed in one turn, by Brick Break, unless a ghost type switches in, thus not breaking the screens because of their immunity to it. Stealth Rock also takes a single turn to set up, and can be removed under the same conditions as DS, except with Rapid Spin > Brick Break. This is actually countering my argument as it is pretty centralizing, but any Scrappy pokemon with Brick Break removes DS, unlike Rapid Spin, so is Deoxys-L really broken?

Its supporting sets are unpredictable, and I would argue that Azelf is easily as hard to kill because it just Explodes after doing these things. Prediction would ruin Deoxys-L, as if it decides to Reflect your DD Tyranitar can Dragon Dance, or if it Taunts your Ttar can Crunch. If you can say Deoxys-L is unpredictable, then I can make my claim that offensive threats are far more unpredictable, and thus can beat Deoxys-L.

EDIT: What I am trying to get across here is that players don't want to deal with defensive pokemon in comparison to offensive. You don't hear people screaming GyaraJolt/Vire!, yet there are complaints about SkarmBliss all of the time. I think the biased towards offensive play is preventing our metagame from evolving, and I think one could argue that it needs to be more balanced, and the only way to make it balanced is adding the definition of a support/stall pokemon, Deoxys-L.

 

[Darkmalice]

Let's not forget that many possible 2HKOs on Deoxys-L are likely to fail. Deoxys-L can stall with Recover and Pressure till their PP runs out - SpecsMence Draco Meteor, SpecsTran Fire Blast, even CB Flygon Outrage. Many Choiced moves with 15 PP or less can be outstalled by spamming Recover, barring a crit or side effect like Paralysis or Defence drop. Admittely, non-choiced Pokemon are harder to PP stall, but there are few Pokemon that can 2HKO Deoxys-L without that massive boost or a super-effective hit.

Cresselia? Pursuit-bait.

I think Deoxys-D would be a bit overcentralizing... in the fact of it can lay down entry hazards with little troubles. Granted, the Taunt / Cosmic Power / Seismic Toss / Recover set may seem threatening on paper... but a simple Tentacruel nerfs it's potential. In fact, any spinner would force this set out for one reason: blocking Rapid Spin. It's a first instinct and such.

But to get to the point, it's not Deoxys-D's offensive movepool that scares me. It is a combination of its defensive and support strategies. Hated Bronzong laying double Screens? How about this thing? It has Recover to top it off. And Taunt too! It can lay both Spikes and Stealth Rock; most of the time with little problems.

Pokemon like Tyranitar and Scizor could handle it alright... but it's massive defensive stats would suggest these two to use their harder STAB options (Crunch and U-Turn / X-Scissor) than to attempt to Pursuit it out. IMO, Deoxys-D would just cause grief in the metagame.

I'm not 100% against testing it, but I feel that if it was, it wouldn't last very long in OU.

I agree. Deoxys-L can carry out its supportive strategies very easily. Imagine how many Spinners, Rotoms, Tyranitars, Scizors and Brick Breakers (even more Scizors) would be used just for dealing Deoxys-L.

 

[Relictivity]

In this case, I agre with Blasphemy. What makes you willing to deal with Salamence, who can 2HKO everything in the metagame if you've Dragon Danced and have Stealth ROck. What makes you willing to deal with Gyarados, who Dragon Dances, arguably much safer. What makes you willing to deal with offensive teams with 6 straight wallbreakers so that nothing can get in the way. OU needs better walls - stall is very difficult in the current metagame.

Let's not forget that many possible 2HKOs on Deoxys-L are likely to fail. Deoxys-L can stall with Recover and Pressure till their PP runs out - SpecsMence Draco Meteor, SpecsTran Fire Blast, even CB Flygon Outrage. Many Choiced moves with 15 PP or less can be outstalled by spamming Recover, barring a crit or side effect like Paralysis or Defence drop. Admittely, non-choiced Pokemon are harder to PP stall, but there are few Pokemon that can 2HKO Deoxys-L without that massive boost or a super-effective hit.

Look at Icy Man's post below to see things that can 2HKO Deoxys without boosts. And notice that Deoxys should always run Taunt, therefore providing the balance with those stat boosters (Salamence, Gyarados, Lucario, maybe even Scizor.

I agree. Deoxys-L can carry out its supportive strategies very easily. Imagine how many Spinners, Rotoms, Tyranitars, Scizors and Brick Breakers (even more Scizors) would be used just for dealing Deoxys-L.

Sure, seeing yet more Scizors and Tyranitars would not be pretty but at least we have pokemon to deal with Tyranitar (maybe not Scizor). On the other hand, the metagame does not have a pokemon to deal with Mixed DD Mence. That needs to be fixed.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

What I am trying to get across here is that players don't want to deal with defensive pokemon in comparison to offensive. You don't hear people screaming GyaraJolt/Vire!, yet there are complaints about SkarmBliss all of the time. I think the biased towards offensive play is preventing our metagame from evolving, and I think one could argue that it needs to be more balanced, and the only way to make it balanced is adding the definition of a support/stall pokemon, Deoxys-L.

Gyaravire isn't a good offensive option anyway as Electric moves aren't the only viable option against Gyarados.

In the current metagame there should be no complaints about Skarmbliss.

Well, adding Deoxys-L would make the metagame more offensive because it's very hard to deal with Deoxys-L by using stall. However, teams would be more balanced because Deoxys-L is an excellent choice for most teams anyway.

I believe Deoxys-L wouldn't change the metagame too much. Unlike Garchomp, this doesn't directly threaten most teams. Stall looks interesting on paper, but things like Stealth Rock stop its potential.

 

[Crafty Veteran]

Skarmbliss could still be a big threat. It's still a force to be reckoned with. It's being used a lot now with the vast amount of Stall Teams and it's still tough to take down.

 

[blasphemy1]

With the right aid/prediction, SkarmBliss is as viable as ever. MixApe is the best wall breaker for this combo, but it gets destroyed if the other team has Tentacruel or the new OU Latias on the team(which WILL be on just about every stall team), while the new MixMence blows dick against the combo, unless you have godly prediction. Most Blissey have Protect, so the second they see an Outrage being thrown at them, they can just switch to Skarmory and set up some Spikes/Phaze. The next time Mence comes in it will probably have ~52.5% health, due to atleast two rounds of Life Orb + Stealth Rock + Sandstorm. That is incredibly easy to take down, and MixApe is even easier with Toxic Spikes/Spike support.

BTW, it is a good thing you took note of GyaraJolt/Vire, since I put Jolteon in the front, I though someone could assume that it is far more common than GyaraVire. Also, Electivire is actually pretty good offensively. Its resistance to Scizor's Bullet Punch means it isn't revenge killed as easily as MixMence, and it has a STAB electric move to fend off bulky waters, unlike Infernape, who needs Nasty Plot to KO them, thus cutting off its coverage against Salamence or Blissey.

 

[Crafty Veteran]

MixSalamence is it's "best" counter after Infernape but other than that, the fact that it gets locked into Outrage is pretty easy to get around, Thunder Wave, Toxic Stall it, Roar it, Brave Bird it. It still gets around nicely.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

Skarmbliss could still be a big threat. It's still a force to be reckoned with. It's being used a lot now with the vast amount of Stall Teams and it's still tough to take down.

Irrelevant. The core of my post has nothing to do with this. "Stall teams" have stall Pokemon anyways, so it's not like SkarmBliss makes or breaks the team.

 

[Crafty Veteran]

Irrelevant. The core of my post has nothing to do with this. "Stall teams" have stall Pokemon anyways, so it's not like SkarmBliss makes or breaks the team.

I was talking about this particular line

there should be no complaints about Skarmbliss.

That bold statement "no complaint" is odd because SkarmBliss is still a force to be reckoned with. It is still a complainable matter and with Stall Teams around SkarmBliss + 4 other bulky pokemon it is a tough assignment to take down. To say there is no complaints is just odd.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

I was talking about this particular line



That bold statement "no complaint" is odd because SkarmBliss is still a force to be reckoned with. It is still a complainable matter and with Stall Teams around SkarmBliss + 4 other bulky pokemon it is a tough assignment to take down. To say there is no complaints is just odd.

I said "should be". Anyway, stop responding to bullshit, it doesn't contribute to this discussion.

 

[Caelum]

Why are you guys talking about Skarmbliss, this is a discussion about Deoxys-l?

On another note, I don't understand how people can be threatened by it offensively. It has to get nearly +6 before it can be mildly a threat and that's true of any Pokemon. The offensive move pool is great but it honestly doesn't have the stats to back it up.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

I completely agree. The only thing it is, is a defensive threat. And with SR it's 2HKO'd by a lot of Pokemon. It's got the worst typing possible for a defensive Pokemon in this metagame.

 

[Darkerkrai]

Deoxys-L seems like more of something that everyone would be tossing Toxic at, only to be met with another Pokemon or *gasp* Taunt from a base 90 Speed.

I decided to look at some of the damage calculations and I saw that most of them are a bit situational and just common sense:

- (+2) Adamant 252 Atk LO Scizor using Bullet Punch: 788 Atk vs 396 Def & 304 HP (60 Base Power): 168 - 198 (55.26% - 65.13%) SD Scizor 2HKOs with Bullet Punch.

So, Scizor can 2HKO a wall that doesn't resist Bullet Punch? That doesn't seem too amazing at all >_>. Besides, if Deoxys-L is smart enough to stay in on Scizor, wouldn't it have something to retaliate? Perhaps, maybe it could just Taunt Scizor, heal up damage from the unboosted Bullet Punches and Night Shade its health down? Besides, why isn't Scizor using X-Scissor instead? I mean, obivously, the Deoxys-L user is going to OHKO Scizor with something, anyway or... just setup a Reflect or something of that sort :s.

- Timid 252 Sp.A Heatran using Fire Blast: 359 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 111 - 132 (36.51% - 43.42%) Timid ScarfTran just misses a possible 2HKO with Stealth Rock.

Again, it's not really amazaing that something with a very nice offense (with a STAB base 120 attack) can beat something with a very nice defense considering that it doesn't resist any of its moves.

Oh and by the way, it's a 0% chance of a 2HKO after Stealth Rock when factoring in Leftovers (on average without Leftovers, it's still a 0% chance >_>). With Pressure and Recover, Deoxys-L will just force Heatran out, giving it the advantage on something else.

- (+1)Jolly 252 Atk LO Salamence using Outrage: 553 Atk vs 396 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 234 - 276 (76.97% - 90.79%) This is Jolly Salamence.

Um... Jolly Salamence 2HKO's a 252/252 Impish Groudon with a +1 Life Orb Dragon Dance, I don't get your point here :(.

- Adamant 252 Atk Tyranitar using Stone Edge: 403 Atk vs 396 Def & 304 HP (100 Base Power): 109 - 130 (35.86% - 42.76%) No CB, no LO. This is pre-Dragon Dance. Tyranitar Crunches / Pursuits it anyway.

Once again, this isn't surprising (CB Crunch doesn't OHKO >_> anyway) seeing as how Lugia, Cresselia, Mewtwo, Mew, Deoxys-A... a lot of Ubers take massive damage from a CB Tyranitar's Crunch, should we move them down to OU, too since a 403 Attack + a Choice Band + a base 80 STAB, SE move kills or nearly kills them >_<.

- (+1) Adamant 252 Atk LO Gyarados using Waterfall: 574 Atk vs 396 Def & 304 HP (80 Base Power): 162 - 192 (53.29% - 63.16%) LO Gyarados, guaranteed 2HKO.

And... Deoxys-L can't Thunder Wave or Thunderbolt it?

- Timid 252 Sp.A LO Zapdos using Thunderbolt: 349 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (95 Base Power): 111 - 132 (36.51% - 43.42%) Pretty solid damage. Switching in is risky.

What? Risky? Healing off a 3HKO is risky? ToxiStalling is risky? Switching in, spreading paralysis is risky? Using Ice Beam is risky?

- Naïve 252 Sp.A LO Infernape using Flamethrower: 307 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (95 Base Power): 99 – 117 (32.57% - 38.49%) This is good – try Nasty Plot.

Once again, Deoxys-L can do something back in the time it takes to switch in on a Nasty Plot or a Flamethrower. Toxic and Thunder Wave actually do their job at crippling Infernape. Hell, even Light Screen has some type of viability.

- (+2) Adamant 252 Atk LO Lucario using Close Combat: 700 Atk vs 396 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 148 - 175 (48.68% - 57.57%) Note that this includes CC.

The same thing that applies for Pokemon who need to setup to 2HKO Deoxys-L applies to Lucario, too. Who's to say that Deoxys-L isn't planning to do something as it switches in? Who's also to say that Close Combat will even 2HKO? There's a really low chance of that happening, anyway.

- Adamant 252 Atk LO Metagross using Meteor Mash: 405 Atk vs 396 Def & 304 HP (100 Base Power): 144 - 169 (47.37% - 55.59%) LO and Leftovers are used about the same. Adamant Agiligross wins this one.

This is probabally the only thing that can win against Deoxys-L (considering that it doesn't run Thunder Wave) if Deoxys-L switches in on it. Remember that that base 90 Speed isn't anything to overlook, Metagross tends to not always run max Speed and Meteor Mash's accuracy is shakey to begin with.

- Naïve 252 Sp.A LO Azelf using Fire Blast: 349 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 94 - 111 (30.92% - 36.51%) Not too impressive…but then this is without NP. Too bad those have declined.

Exactly >_>. Without some type of setup, not much is getting past Deoxys-L's defenses.

- Timid 252 Sp.A LO Starmie using Surf: 299 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (95 Base Power): 96 - 114 (31.58% - 37.50%) Not bad at all.

Ummmm... Deoxys-L can switch in, Recover off the 4HKO, Night Shade and repeat, or, it can just force a switch with Toxic.

- (+1) Timid 252 Sp.A LO Suicune using Surf: 418 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (95 Base Power): 133 - 157 (43.75% - 51.64%) Deoxys-L is setup fodder for this.

Ummmm... Setup fodder? Toxic much? Night Shade and a Life Orb are also withering down Suicune's health >_>. Not only that, but, it's not even a 2HKO after the first Calm Mind.

- Timid 252 Sp.A Magnezone using Thunderbolt: 359 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (95 Base Power): 88 - 105 (28.95% - 34.54%) Scarfzone. Not too impressive.

Why is this even up here?

- Modest 252 Sp.A Magnezone using Thunderbolt: 394 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (95 Base Power): 97 - 115 (31.91% - 37.83%) Same here. Remember though that Magnezone can run Specs just as effectively.

So... every Modest Magenezone needs Choice Specs to beat this thing?

- Adamant 252 Atk Flygon using Outrage: 328 Atk vs 396 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 108 - 127 (35.53% - 41.78%) Choice Scarf Flygon.

Going back to Jolly DD LO Salamence, it's not that surprising if a Jolly, CB Flygon can 2HKO with Outrage (30% chance with Leftovers). Choice Scarf Flygon obviously wanted to be trapped while 3HKOing with Outrage... right?

- (+1) Adamant 252 Atk Flygon using Outrage: 492 Atk vs 396 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 160 - 190 (52.63% - 62.50%) Choice Band Flygon pretty much gets a 100% 2HKO.

Again, a STAB, base 120 Attack coming off of a very nice offense doesn't surprise me at all >_>.

- Adamant 252 Atk LO Mamoswine using Earthquake: 394 Atk vs 396 Def & 304 HP (100 Base Power): 139 - 165 (45.72% - 54.28%) This is LO.

Like Metagross, CB Mamoswine can beat Deoxys-L one on one, but, once again, it's not really surprising >_>. Unless LO Mamo is guarenteed the 2HKO, I don't see this as a reason to push someone's vote towards Deoxys-L being tested for OU.

- (+1) Adamant 252 Atk Snorlax using Return: 525 Atk vs 396 Def & 304 HP (105 Base Power): 150 - 177 (49.34% - 58.22%) Not too common, but still hurts.

Actually, with Latias now in OU, it's pretty much the most common Snorlax set. But the fact remains that Deoxys-L would stay in, not fearing a Crunch >_>.

- (+1) Jolly 252 Atk Weavile using Ice Punch: 508 Atk vs 396 Def & 304 HP (75 Base Power): 103 - 123 (33.88% - 40.46%) Losing a third of your HP on an Ice Punch.

Weavile isn't using Night Slash because...? Ice Punch just gets healed off like anything else and Deoxys-L is still alive.

- (+1) Timid 252 Sp.A Jolteon using Thunderbolt: 478 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (95 Base Power): 118 - 139 (38.82% - 45.72%) SpecsJolt is even more threatening, since Deoxys-L can’t really do anything back.

Let's see, avoid a 3HKO with Recover, Night Shade, Light Screen, Toxic, Seismic Toss, setup some Spikes and Recover off the HP or, just setup some Calm Minds.

- Modest 252 Atk Adaptability Porygon-Z using Tri Attack: 405 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (80 Base Power): 112 - 134 (36.84% - 44.08%) Scarf P-Z can KO this if you’ve taken about 20% damage (which is nothing)

On average, Deoxys-L isn't 2HKO'd very easily by a Porygon-Z's Tri Attack with 20% of its HP gone. Actually, with Leftovers, it's really not much of a problem, considering that Deoxys-L actually has a reason to switch in >_>.

- Modest 252 Sp.A Empoleon using Surf: 353 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (95 Base Power): 87 - 103 (28.62% - 33.88%) Pre-setup.

- (+1) Modest 252 Sp.A Torrential Empoleon using Surf: 529 Atk vs 418 Def & 304 HP (142 Base Power): 193 - 228 (63.49% - 75.00%) Setup accomplished. Also, this is only Surf.

Okay, so, the last time I checked, Empoleon isn't really safe from Deoxys-L, even behind a Substitute. Taunt/Night Shade/Recover/Toxic (or Thunder Wave) is enough to beat it one on one. Deoxys-L already outspeeds Empoleon without any investment whatsoever and can just Taunt it, Night Shade, Recover and just juggle back and forth between Night Shade and Recover. In fact, with Pressure, Deoxys-L has no problem getting past Hydro Pump and Surf variants.
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Okay, most of those situations you mentoned weren't really viable at all. Tyranitar and Metagross are mentioned as counters already, so, I see no point in having to mention them. Deoxys-L is also a Psychic type, of course dark and ghost moves are going to hurt it and it's not like it's going to be taking like 10% from a strong boosted attack. Then, you count in the possibility of Calm Mind with much more Defense and Speed investment and its array of moves to choose from like Grass Knot, Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, Psychic, Focus Blast, Hidden Power, Thunderbolt, Thunder and Psycho Boost, coming off a base 70 Special Attack... it really isn't weak or bad at all. Anyway, offensively, Deoxys-L is like Blissey without Serene Grace, so, I doubt Calm Mind would see much light >_>.

Deoxys-L also has a knack for supporting so much easier than most of OU. Stealth Rock, Spikes, Light Screen and Reflect are so much easier to setup from a base 90 Speed and with Taunt hindering the slower Toxic users and Breloom, Deoxys-L's supporting side would just be a lot for the OU metagame. Stall Teams also get a huge boost from Deoxys-L as it can prevent a lot of setup and provide excellent support as well.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

I don't think you get the point of his post. He made damage calcs with all populair pokemon to show that Deoxys-L is viable for OU. Those are all theoretical situations.