Deoxys E Discussion

[footballfanatic]

ATTN: footballfanatic, stop calling everything that goes against your ways of thinking "dumb". I agree Stark Mountain's average IQ is horrible but that doesn't mean you can insult anyone with a different perspective. Debate with reason or don't debate at all.

You're telling me to debate with reason?

I'm not calling people "dumb" because they disagree with me, I'm calling them "dumb", because they say "dumb" stuff.

"180>130"

You've got to be kidding me. If that's not dumb, then I don't know what is. If someone posts something as "dumb" as that, I'm going to call it "dumb", and if that gets me banned, then so be it.

 

[Deucalion2]

Hur hur hur. I want to see what the mods think of that post.

ON TOPIC: My team wasn't really affected, as I ran Spiritomb and Jirachi both before and after Dx-S, but I haven't encountered any major problems with the sweeper sets. However, the stall sets can be devastating if played right, and are tricky to counter.

 

[zxn666]

The first set on the Dusknoir analysis (Careful, 252 Hp, 180 Sd) vs. the first set on the Deoxys-S analysis, using Shadow Ball: 49.66% - 58.50% The Deoxys-E set might be taken "out of context", since it was meant for ubers, but I'm sure that it'll keep it's special attacking orientation in standard, because it's movepool is largely special. So, Dusknoir isn't really a counter. It has Shadow Sneak, yes, but if Deoxys switches out on it, you're out of your Deoxys-S counter, since it definitely can't switch in again and hope to live.

Standard Careful Spiritomb vs. the same Deoxys-S, this time using Ice Beam: 35.20% - 41.45% So Spiritomb does take less than Dusknoir, but this is still a 3HKO on a Pokemon without a reliable recovery move (and lower Hp). It does force Deoxys to make a tough decision (between getting Sucker Punched, or getting Pursuited). But Sucker/pursuit only have a very small chance of OHKO: 86.31% - 101.66%. That's with 144 attack EVs. Shadow Sneak isn't a good option for countering it, since it's power is half of Sucker Punch's power.

39.87% - 46.98%- That's the same Deoxys-S set using Grass Knot vs. Vaporeon, one of zxn666's recommended "bulky water" counters. This is assuming that Grass Knot is at 60 base power vs. Vaporeon, I forget what it is. :[ Vaporeon has Wish, but no "instant" recovery move (unless it wants to give up one of it's many useful options for Protect, which Deoxys-S can predict the second time 'round and switch out on), so this is sufficient to say that Vaporeon is not an awesome counter.
62.72% - 73.71%- A Deoxys with Tbolt > Grass Knot vs. the same Vaporeon.
54.36% - 63.90% - That's Vaporeon's best effort (Surf, with 68 Sa EVs) against Deoxys-S.
Damage calcs vs. Swampert (another bulky water "counter") would be a joke, it OHKOs even without an item. However, Here's standard Swampert vs. Deoxys-S.

Hydro Pump, 56 Sa EVs: 55.19% - 65.15%
Earthquake: 53.53% - 63.07%

So it's defenses aren't that bad. It's not like tanks are switching in and getting OHKOs, and it's not one of those, "Add SR, Spikes, and Sandstream damage" cases, DeoS can survie those, too, even coupled with attacks. These are not DeoA's paper defenses, they're similar to Azelf's (Azelf's defenses aren't great, but not too bad...).

So I did "bulky ghosts", and two "bulky waters". I'll do more if you want, this discussion needs some calcs.

It is limited with only four moveslots, but there's the risk it'll carry the move, so you can't switch your Dusknoir into DeoS with too much confidence, without testing a lot (making that "counter" Poke not as much of a counter any more). So, Blissey might counter some sets, but she can't be too careful, or Calm, since she needs her Def against this guy. :P Even when you're prepared, countering it would be pretty risky business.

Thank you for this data, now I have someting to work with.

I'll take back the bulky water thing, the only reliable bulky water I see is Milotic because it can recover off damage dealt and has a very good special defence, allowing it to maybe survive 2 thunderbolts.

Hovever, Spiritomb is the best counter mainly because you can employ the strategy known as pain split stalling. you get hit with a big attack which drops your hp down to tiny numbers, pain split to get some hp back and drop your opponents, then priority attack your opponent. It will almost always work against Deoxys.

 

[Bologo]

I've faced quite a few Deoxys-S' over the past few days, and without even trying, I walled it to death with my Lanturn.

My Lanturn has 4 HP/252 Def/252 SDef with a Calm Nature, which was like that before Deoxys became legal.

Let's look at the calculations for some of the popular attacks against Lanturn.

All of these calculations are being done with a 252 EV & +Nature holding a Life Orb against 252def/252sdef calm Lanturn:

Grass Knot (neutrally 40 BP against Lanturn/80 BP SE) = 22.96% - 27.04% (5HKO with Leftovers)

Thunderbolt absorbed

Ice Beam = 13.27% - 15.56%

Extremespeed = 28.57% - 33.42% (4HKO)

Zen Headbutt =42.86% - 50.26% (very rare on Deoxys-S) (3HKO w/Leftovers)

Psycho Boost (full power) = 57.91% - 68.11%
(watered down) = 29.34% - 34.69%
(3HKO)

Superpower (full power) = 42.35% - 50.00%
(watered down) = 28.57% - 33.42%
(most likely 4HKO w/leftovers)

Energy Ball = 44.64% - 52.55% (3HKO with Leftovers)

Shadow Ball = 22.19% - 26.28% (5HKO with Leftovers)

See, now those are with 252 EVs, +Nature and Life Orb. Now, it's very very unlikely that Deoxys-S would run ALL of those things at once for an attacking stat, since it does have to spend a lot on speed as well, so a lot of those would most likely be getting turned into 4HKOs and 5HKOs.

Lanturn can easily just Thunder Wave Deoxys-S, and then Rest those off right after. It can also use Confuse Ray to really screw over Deoxys who'd be taking possible confusion damage coupled with less than stellar defenses (especially after a superpower).

Lanturn can easily 3HKO with Thunderbolt to a 0/0 Deoxys-S, which are the common ones. If need be, it can also carry Signal Beam, which is a guaranteed 3HKO. But Surf/Thunderbolt should be enough.

Really, Lanturn messes up Life Orb Deoxys-S really badly, resisting boltbeam, not getting 2HKOed by anything that Life Orb Deoxys-S can throw at it, and Thunder Waving Deoxys in return to potentially mess it up for the rest of the match. The only things that can really threaten Lanturn are Energy Ball/HP Ground, and maybe Zen Headbutt. But all in all, if Lanturn Thunder Waves Deoxys without getting 2HKOed, it's done its job.

CSpecs Deoxys-S can pose a bit more of a problem with Psycho Boost being a 2HKO - 3HKO on consecutive hits, with Energy Ball being the same, and Choice Band gives it a much bigger problem, but the fact that it can come in easily on 2 of Deoxys most popular attacks (Thunderbolt/Ice Beam), and that it seems that the Life Orb set is the most popular one right now, and Lanturn walls it quite nicely and fends off Deoxys-S well in my experience.

 

[Orwell]

Why are we still debating this? Can't we give a few more weeks on Shoddybattle before we say for certain? I mean really, It's being tested for a reason. Like it or not, Smogon only has as much experience with OU DX-E as Shoddybattle players do, and it's only been in widespread use there for LESS THAN A WEEK. C'mon people. Remember Garchomp or Electrivire? Most Pokemon that were hyped for months before D/P, turned out differently than we expected. We were disappointed by some Pokemon, pleasantly surprised by others, and many Pokemon, like Garchomp and Tentracruel took months of standard play to reach their full potential. Theorymon can be effective, when tempered by experience. Without experience, none of us, not even the more experienced battlers among us can make a concrete opinion. Let's just be a little more patient so we can ALL learn more about the game.

 

[Bologo]

Obviously. Now in this thread we're just trying to say some possible counters for the thing.

That, and it's not OU on smogon yet, it's still listed as uber, so there's still debating for that. Plus people are just stating their experiences with the thing, nothing wrong with that.

 

[Orwell]

All very true, sorry if I came off as aggressive. I merely said OU Deoxys because it was being discussed in the context of OU. It's just that these kinds of threads tend to turn sour very quickly.

On topic, I've only dealt with Offensive DX-E. Spirtomb counters him all the time, and he gets Toxistalled quite easily IMO.

 

[Kingdrom]

Deoxys S is not that much of a threat. What does it have besides high speed?
Pursuit Metagross completely destroys it (which I use), not to mention weavile and heracross, who also carry pursuit. On shoddy, its not that hard to defeat due to mediocre stats except speed, and terrible hp.

 

[Vampy34]

Deoxys S is not that much of a threat. What does it have besides high speed?
Pursuit Metagross completely destroys it (which I use), not to mention weavile and heracross, who also carry pursuit. On shoddy, its not that hard to defeat due to mediocre stats except speed, and terrible hp.

It's only stat which is below average is its HP

 

[sanjay120]

Deoxys S is not that much of a threat. What does it have besides high speed?

Fucking huge movepool.

 

[Instinctive]

Why has nobody mentioned its walling capabilities?


Deoxys-e @ Leftovers
Jolly
Pressure
252 Spd/128 SDed/128 Def

Night Shade or SToss (i run Night Shade)
Substitute
Cosmic Power
Recover

This set works very well, and you can even go into a PP stall mode with Sub and Pressure, and a reliable recovery move in...recover.
When you send it out, people expect SPower/Ice Beam/TBolt/filler and switch out the poke that that set would hit x4, letting you set up a Sub or Cosmic Power. And with 180 speed, and the set i put in, you outspeed Scarfchomp and are able to setup some Subs and CPs.

Unfortunately, you get walled pretty easily by anything else with SToss, Celebi, and either normal or ghost types...

 

[Bourbon]

The problem with the huge movepool is the fact that it only gets four moves. If it has four offensive moves, Dugtrio owns it. If it has already used Superpower, dark types own it.

It's really just a fast mixed sweeper, but 306 max attack stats aren't too good even with Life Orb support. It's like a faster Mixape that doesn't hit nearly as hard.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I walled it to death with my Lanturn.

Thank you. When I saw you've posted in this thread, I was already expecting some random crazy UU counter (sort of) to Deoxys-S, but the fact that you came with the real men's pokémon just made everything more awesome.

That and the fact I noticed it was the pokémon that fits better in the sixth slot of my new team... Good to know I have something reliable against Deoxys-S now.

skiddle: 317 max (Sp.) Attack, actually.

 

[Bass]

Well, Metagross counters Deoxys-E with relative ease through my experience, especially the CB Pursuit variants. In fact, many steels fare well against him. Being a big fan of steels, I haven't had any problems with him yet, but Deoxys-E does have the potential to sweep teams that lack any defense from what I know. I think we should give it more time.

 

[eden]

If you have to start using stuff that isn't good for stuff other than countering Deoxys-E all of a sudden like Milotic(isn't used because it Def is to low to contend with other bulky Water like Vaporeon.),Lanturn which is a decent Sp.Wall,but seriuosly who's gonna use that when they have stuff like Blissey. If you find yourself suddenly haveing to use niche Pokemon just to counter another it obvious that its uber. Deoxys is like THE ultimate wall breaker. If you don't want to use any speed be my guest. 396 > ALL base 130 with out a scarf. Want to outstrip Scarf-Cross? Use 36 speed Evs to beat people that try to beat Scarf cross by 1 point. Go with 200 Speed EVs to outspeed Choice-Chomp the possibilities are endless with this thing. If you NEED a Priority Attack(none of wehich will OHKO except for CB Sucker Punch from Spiritomb and CB Shadow Sneak from Dusknoiry mind You)/Pursuit to beat it than its overcentralizing the meatgame and IMO should be banned :/

 

[superman]

Just would like to come in and note that Stallling Deoxus-E does NOT work. I just had over 20 matches, all attempts failed. You sub and start cosmic powering, when they find out what you're doing, they send in something, and anything supereffective screws you over. It's defenses are too papery to get 6 cosmic powers up.

All it can do now is revenge kill random gyrados's and garchomps, pretty much if it doesn't hit for x4 damage or the 2x damaged poke is somewhat bulky (im looking at you magnezone >_>) it can take the speed demons hit and OHKO back. And don't even bother leaving it in against something it doesn't hit SE damage against.

I've tried the three attacking variants as well. Mixed doesn't pack enough power to OHKO. Band is beaten by prediction. And specs is beaten by prediction and/or Blissey.

I've been testing it on Shoddy ever since it was allowed in ladder play, and Deoxus-E is NOT UBER.

And no, I'm not just some random noob who didn't use it to it's full potential. I've studied which EV's to use and where to put them, and which moves to use to make for the best one out there, but it isn't good enough.

 

[Mastadi]

Deoxys S is not that much of a threat. What does it have besides high speed?
Pursuit Metagross completely destroys it (which I use), not to mention weavile and heracross, who also carry pursuit. On shoddy, its not that hard to defeat due to mediocre stats except speed, and terrible hp.

With +Speed nature Deoxys-E needs just 28 EVs in speed in order to outspeed Jolly ScarfCross with max speed (lol). When was the last time when you've seen Scarf Weavile? I doubt you ever did, and +Speed Deoxys-E outspeeds max speed jolly weavile without any EV's in speed. It KOs Weavile easily with superpower without any attack EVs and heracross with 80 EV's in sp. attack with Psycho Boost. I don't really see how these pokemon (And other frail sweepers) are a problem (unless they carry focus sash)

Also, a good counter to extreme speed less Deoxys-e is swords dance+sucker punch+focus sash Absol. Swords Dance the first round, then sucker punch the second.

 

[Bologo]

If you have to start using stuff that isn't good for stuff other than countering Deoxys-E all of a sudden like Milotic(isn't used because it Def is to low to contend with other bulky Water like Vaporeon.)

Milotic can use Hypnosis and has instant recovery while also having much much more defense than Vaporeon when statused. Milotic is listed as OU already, so it's incorrect to say it's not used.

Lanturn which is a decent Sp.Wall,but seriuosly who's gonna use that when they have stuff like Blissey.

Unique resistances to things such as the Ice Beam/Thunderbolt combo, while actually being able to absorb Electric attacks. Also the fact that it counters every bulky water out there allow it to be one of the UU pokemon that is actually seen in OU on many occasions.

If you find yourself suddenly haveing to use niche Pokemon just to counter another it obvious that its uber.

In ADV, Magneton was considered a niche pokemon when it was used to counter Skarmory. I don't believe that Skarmory was uber though, so no, it's not obvious that having to use a niche pokemon to counter another pokemon make the target pokemon uber.

Deoxys is like THE ultimate wall breaker.

How is it the ultimate wall-breaker if it won't be able to OHKO, or even 2HKO any of the major walls? Most of them can 2HKO or 3HKO Deoxys-S as well. Most of the major walls have a recovery move, and if Deoxys-S can't 2HKO, they can just recover their health and stall out Deoxys-S incredibly easily.

If you don't want to use any speed be my guest. 396 > ALL base 130 with out a scarf. Want to outstrip Scarf-Cross? Use 36 speed Evs to beat people that try to beat Scarf cross by 1 point.
Go with 200 Speed EVs to outspeed Choice-Chomp the possibilities are endless with this thing.

Ok, so it can revenge-kill them, but that's all it can do against them, because there's no way in hell that it's going to be able to switch into anything that either Heracross or Garchomp can do.

If you NEED a Priority Attack(none of wehich will OHKO except for CB Sucker Punch from Spiritomb and CB Shadow Sneak from Dusknoiry mind You)/Pursuit to beat it than its overcentralizing the meatgame and IMO should be banned :/

I don't believe so. I believe that a lot of people carry Ice attacks specifically to beat the 600 BST dragons, and some carry Fighting attacks for Blissey, or even Fire attacks for Skarmory, but you don't see them in ubers or overcentralizing the metagame. Nobody needs a priority attack to beat this thing, they just need a wall. I don't believe that needing a wall on a team is anything new. Pursuit is a common attack on every physically based pokemon that has it, so Deoxys isn't really changing anything from that perspective.

 

[footballfanatic]

With +Speed nature Deoxys-E needs just 28 EVs in speed in order to outspeed Jolly ScarfCross with max speed (lol). When was the last time when you've seen Scarf Weavile? I doubt you ever did, and +Speed Deoxys-E outspeeds max speed jolly weavile without any EV's in speed. It KOs Weavile easily with superpower without any attack EVs and heracross with 80 EV's in sp. attack with Psycho Boost. I don't really see how these pokemon (And other frail sweepers) are a problem (unless they carry focus sash)

Also, a good counter to extreme speed less Deoxys-e is swords dance+sucker punch+focus sash Absol. Swords Dance the first round, then sucker punch the second.

Umm.. no. Jolly Scarfchomp reaches 499 speed. In order to outspeed that, Deoxys needs a +speed nature and 236 EVs to beat it.

That leaves him with a whopping 274 EVs to put into attack. If you go for the 2HKO on Blissey, that leaves you with 122 EVs to put into Sp. Attack(meaning you reach a whopping 256 Sp. Attack).

So you'll outspeed Scarfchomp, and get the beastly attacking stats of 256/264...sexy.

 

[Fenikkusu]

Scarfcross not chomp. ; )

 

[footballfanatic]

Scarfcross not chomp. ; )

Whoops haha.

 

[IggyBot]

Deoxys-E also outspeeds Scarfchomp with just 72 speed EV's with a +speed nature. This gives you attacking stats of 272/289, 455 speed plus a Life Orb. Not bad imo, considering Starmie, one of the most common pokemon used, gets at max 299 SpAtk (328 with a +SpAtk nature, but nobody runs that) and seems to have no problem seriously hurting stuff.

 

[Blln]

I've been running into a whole bunch of Deoxys-E's on Shoddy, and really unless that pack HP Fire, which very few do, they aren't ever getting by Metagross, Jirachi, or Bronzong. Dusknoir and Cresselia are pretty much perfect counters to anything but Specs Shadow Ball, which then gives you a free switch in to Tar / Weavile to kill it. Deoxys-E is pretty much like any unpredictable pokemon - it's only dangerous until you know its set. As long as you pack a relatively safe switch like a Steel / Psychich, Dusk / Cress, or whatever, you should have no problem.

The set I've been running the most is Substitute / Focus Punch / Thunderbolt / (Ice Beam / Psychic) @ Petaya. It was a pretty fun set - Substitute on switches, hit shit with focus punch until you hit Petaya and have hopefully maimed their Blissey, and then just go crazy. It was decently effective set, and fun to use.

So yeah from what I have encountered, Deoxys-E is definitely not too much for standards. He's alot easier to counter than most OU mixed sweepers like Infernape or Salamence, because he lacks the high attacking stats and overkill STABs. Sure he's very good, but I mean if Ou teams can handle shit like Salamence and Ttar, then Deoxys-E shouldnt really be too big of a problem

 

[COalex]

I would just like to disillusion everybody as to Deoxys-Es potential as a wall breaker; using my stall team today on the ladder, almost none of the Deoxys got past my Cresselia. One of the ones who came in after Cresselia fainted failed to OHKO my RestTalk Cross with Psychic and promptly died.

For the record, Iggy's SpecsApe (It was a SpecsApe, right?) gave me far more trouble than any Deoxys I encountered today.

 

[Bologo]

I would just like to disillusion everybody as to Deoxys-Es potential as a wall breaker; using my stall team today on the ladder, almost none of the Deoxys got past my Cresselia. One of the ones who came in after Cresselia fainted failed to OHKO my RestTalk Cross with Psychic and promptly died.

Exactly, I agree. Shadow Ball is a 3HKO against a friggin 0/0 defensive Cresselia from a Life Orb 252 spatk EV +Nature Shadow Ball. 0/0 is never the case with Cresselia, so it's most likely a 4HKO - 5HKO.

Deoxys-S really is not nearly as good of a wall breaker as something such as Salamence, Lucario or Infernape because, while faster, it completely lacks the ability to 2HKO many of the major walls in the game, even with absolute max attacking EVs and a +Nature.

Just like I said earlier, there's no need to pack anything special to beat Deoxys, all you need is a wall that doesn't get 2HKOed by its attacks, and then you're pretty much set. Plus, like I said as well, a lot of walls have recovery moves, which means that they'll just shrug off those hits and Deoxys-S will either kill itself due to Life Orb recoil, or it'll get killed by the wall, or just get plain stalled out if it can't 2HKO.