Ditto

I never tried Ditto in DW mainly because I was almost always able to defeat Ditto myself and never saw the advantage of running one. As long as you see Ditto in team preview, you'll be wise not to start setting up, unless you are sub+dd Gyarados or something. Ditto's main advantage is countering heavy offense, as it does a swell job at that.
 
So some of you are willing to allow Ditto to stay OU at the expense of set-up sweepers' (and even the playstyle of Heavy Offense) viability?

When there are pokemon that with such offensive presence that they make walls, tanks, and/or revenge killers useless against them, we ban them do we not? Now comes a pokemon that makes setup sweeping useless, and even a liability for the user - we will keep it?

Setup sweepers are the win conditions for a variety of teams, what will happen to that?

Also I see that a lot of people are focusing on the choice scarfed variant. Ever think what happens when a ditto user just allows the enemy to set up, kill whatever he has out, and send his ditto in without a choice scarf to turn the whole thing into a crapshoot? that kills any and all the strategy and planning the setup sweeper user implemented to even setup in the first place, and at the decision of a speed tie, it's win or lose 50/50. Sure it maybe a "noob" reckless tactic to do that, but it's still possible. Same way spamming fissure is reckless but "cheap".

Basically, the essence of and philosophy behind using a setup sweeper is made obsolete with ditto around. the setup sweeper sets up so that it can overcome certain obstacles through sheer stats etc.

Ditto seems pretty uncompetitive to me...
 
GH[O]ST said:
So some of you are willing to allow Ditto to stay OU at the expense of set-up sweepers' (and even the playstyle of Heavy Offense) viability?

When there are pokemon that with such offensive presence that they make walls, tanks, and/or revenge killers useless against them, we ban them do we not? Now comes a pokemon that makes setup sweeping useless, and even a liability for the user - we will keep it?

Setup sweepers are the win conditions for a variety of teams, what will happen to that?

Also I see that a lot of people are focusing on the choice scarfed variant. Ever think what happens when a ditto user just allows the enemy to set up, kill whatever he has out, and send his ditto in without a choice scarf to turn the whole thing into a crapshoot? that kills any and all the strategy and planning the setup sweeper user implemented to even setup in the first place, and at the decision of a speed tie, it's win or lose 50/50. Sure it maybe a "noob" reckless tactic to do that, but it's still possible. Same way spamming fissure is reckless but "cheap".

Basically, the essence of and philosophy behind using a setup sweeper is made obsolete with ditto around. the setup sweeper sets up so that it can overcome certain obstacles through sheer stats etc.

Ditto seems pretty uncompetitive to me...
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And talking about banning things after they've been released for a single day seems premature to me.

Ditto is what your opponent allows it to be. If they set up a DD Mence knowing you have Ditto, they were foolish for using it. Ditto can be great or it can be deadweight; the fact that it depends entirely on the other person's actions makes it a special case in terms of (lol) brokenness.

That said, Ditto's presence on the metagame will be positive, particularly Scarf Ditto. Not all setup sweepers will be shut down by it - bulky Volcarona, for example, can simply Roost off damage until Ditto runs out of attacks. It really is a good way to keep many of these things in check, because now more than ever the options are just too vast to cover ALL of them by conventional means.
 
IcyMan28 said:
And talking about banning things after they've been released for a single day seems premature to me.

Ditto is what your opponent allows it to be. If they set up a DD Mence knowing you have Ditto, they were foolish for using it. Ditto can be great or it can be deadweight; the fact that it depends entirely on the other person's actions makes it a special case in terms of (lol) brokenness.

That said, Ditto's presence on the metagame will be positive, particularly Scarf Ditto. Not all setup sweepers will be shut down by it - bulky Volcarona, for example, can simply Roost off damage until Ditto runs out of attacks. It really is a good way to keep many of these things in check, because now more than ever the options are just too vast to cover ALL of them by conventional means.
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Well, I've had experience fighting DW Ditto before...

The thing with ditto is that it really can influence any metagame it is in, so it doesnt matter whether it's in this one or NU. The fact of the matter is that it makes using setup sweepers potentially devastating for you.

You just listed one very specific example lol. Also, what if the Ditto user is a gambler and runs non-choice scarf? it all comes down to a speed tie or crit, which is unfair since the setup=sweeper user did all the planning and implentation of setup. It's similar to spamming Fissure with a pokemon - sure it is unstrategic to spam such a low accuracy move - but it infuses a ton of luck into what should be a relatively luck-free strategy game.

And of course a person using DD mence with the enemy having a ditto woudl be foolish - the problem is that many teams use setupsweepers such as DD mence as win condition....are you saying it's fine to making using entire types of offensive teams foolish?

Setup pokemon are enemies to stall teams and hyper offense. It is hard to find the opportunity to set up against teams that exert immense offensive or defensive pressure (ie - hyper offense and stall). Having the ultimate revenge killer/potential counter sweeper really kills the whole concept of setup sweeping if used properly
 
GH[O]ST said:
Also I see that a lot of people are focusing on the choice scarfed variant. Ever think what happens when a ditto user just allows the enemy to set up, kill whatever he has out, and send his ditto in without a choice scarf to turn the whole thing into a crapshoot? that kills any and all the strategy and planning the setup sweeper user implemented to even setup in the first place, and at the decision of a speed tie, it's win or lose 50/50. Sure it maybe a "noob" reckless tactic to do that, but it's still possible. Same way spamming fissure is reckless but "cheap".

Basically, the essence of and philosophy behind using a setup sweeper is made obsolete with ditto around. the setup sweeper sets up so that it can overcome certain obstacles through sheer stats etc.

Ditto seems pretty uncompetitive to me...
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I think you're forgetting how shitty Ditto's HP is, meaning that the 50/50 kind of scenario you describe will usually end up in the pokemon that Ditto transformed into's favor. There's a reason 99% of all Ditto wear choice scarf, and it's that Choice Scarf gives the most consistent concrete advantage for Ditto switching into any random offensive pokemon.

Anyways, while I disagree with the sentiment of your post, I do have to say I want to hear a bit more about non-choice scarf variants of Ditto, since it seems like DW has shown by and large that Choice Scarf Ditto is fairly threatening, but fairly predictable. Additionally, I feel like Choice Scarf gets rid of Ditto's most threatening possibility against non-offensive forms of play - unlimited PP and up to 24 different moveslots possible in battle. I feel like with Choice Scarf, the only guaranteed kill is revenging Dragons locked into Outrage, but I've had trouble trying to find a non gimmicky item. Some things I've thought of and tested just a little bit in DW at one point or another:

Focus Sash - needs to be a lead unless you can keep rocks off, though does a great job of bluffing scarf if played right. Remember, most people will switch their boosted pokemon out of Ditto to a wall to absorb the brunt of whatever move you're unleashing and forcing you to switch out. An intact Focus Sash can achieve the same effect as Choice Scarf (revenging a boosted sweeper) while making Ditto a bit more a long term threat. Priority is a bit of problem for this but scarf can't really handle it too well either. This seems like it probably has the most competition with Choice Scarf as a viable item.

Macho Brace - Essentially Choice Scarf under trick room without the lockdown effect. The big problem is once Trick Room is over you're up shit creek without a paddle.

Red Card - Depends on Ditto surviving the opponent's attack, which especially in the case of boosting pokemon can be an iffy proposition, but this has probably had the most impressive results when used successfully. Still seems like a bit too much of a gimmick.

Leftovers - Most reliable item in the game kinda gives away everything about Ditto right off the bat and usually leaves him at a disadvantage to whatever he's copying@Leftovers because of the lower HP stat.

Salac/Custap Berry - Haven't gotten a lot enough use out of these, but used right these take advantage of Ditto's low HP to give basically the same effect as Choice Scarf.

There's probably some more interesting examples, but I just wanted to get what I had so far to get across the point - Ditto@Choice Scarf is reliable in that unless the opponent is holding Choice Scarf, he will always be faster than what he's copying, but the fact that people are always expecting choice scarf has made him a way too predictable threat. All the items above except for Leftovers can easily bluff scarf (and scarf could bluff them in turn if they became popular) to use your opponent's gaffe of trying to lock Ditto into a not very effective attack against them. Also, strategies like Tailwind, Trick Room, Paralysis/Burn Support and Dual Screens aren't copied by imposter either way and I've found are pretty effective at giving ditto an advantage even without copying boosts.

I mean seriously, this pokemon is more versatile in terms of what he can do in a single battle than Smeargle and Arceus combined if you give him the right support.
 
You have used ditto a lot right? Is there a way you can get imposter ditto on the battle field as a normal ditto under some weird circumstances? Me and harsha tested a while back and if you switch it right after something dies (kill something with volt turn for example) regular ditto comes out but the second they switch it changes into what they switch (effectively your opponent controls what it turns into). Anything else like that maybe with red card or something.
 
I honestly can't see any item other than Choice Scarf being viable on Ditto, since that 48 HP (and everything else, not like that matters though) really holds it back from doing much. In addition, Substitute and Illusion both block Imposter, making Ditto's life even worse. Basically, "the essence of and philosophy behind using a setup sweeper is made obsolete with Ditto around" is not true. People just have to play more carefully when they see a Ditto on the other team. Maybe carry a counter to your own sweepers. Example: You carry a DD Salamence. If you're really that worried about Ditto ruining your day, run a Mamoswine or a Banded Scizor to take it out in one shot.

For those who are curious, here is a list of the Pokemon usable (not necessarily viable, and heck, I'm being generous) in OU with lower HP:
Shedinja (1)
Shuckle (20)
Clamperl (35) [I've seen it used before, this thing slays with Shell Smash but is next to impossible to set up]
Dugtrio (35)
Dusclops (40)
Riolu (40) [If Prankster Riolu is legal, I believe it is now but I'm not sure]
Mr. Mime (40)
Luvdisc (43) [FUCK YEAH]
Dusknoir (45)
Trapinch (45) [Trick Room Dugtrio, anyone? ...that's what I thought.]
Delibird (45) [ALSO FUCK YEAH]
Ditto's HP stat ties with Croagunk and the mighty Unown, and is beaten by such powerhouses as Glameow and Finneon, as well as Deoxys.
 
KurashiDragon said:
Yes finally, my favorite lead is finally here. :D Imposter Ditto makes any lead into NOTHING!
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How does that work? What are you going to do? Lock yourself into SR? Take on Politoed with its own Hydro Pump? Volt Switch/U-turn on something like Scizor or Thunderus-T?
 
Pippy said:
How does that work? What are you going to do? Lock yourself into SR? Take on Politoed with its own Hydro Pump? Volt Switch/U-turn on something like Scizor or Thunderus-T?
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Choice Scarf Ditto is excellent for scouting leads. It really puts alot of priority in your hands when you lead with a ditto and know what your opponent's lead is inside and out.

edit: my 700th post :D
 
Arcticblast said:
I honestly can't see any item other than Choice Scarf being viable on Ditto, since that 48 HP (and everything else, not like that matters though) really holds it back from doing much.
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fully invested 48 base is aboooout equal to uninvested base 80. Pokemon like Haxorus have base 76. Its HP is not crippling if you use it to revenge things.

Interesting what Ditto will do to the meta. Haxorus has something to fear now :(.
 
...never thought about Ditto's new DW ability but now I do know, I think I'll use one when released...
I aggree with KurashiDragon that Ditto could and will be exellent for scouting, if not even be THE best scouter ever... :)))
 
except act as a revenge killer, ditto can switch in to whatever pokemon then inspect their moveset (from that, held item can be predicted as well), then send out any pokemon that resist it
 
Scarfwynaut said:
You have used ditto a lot right? Is there a way you can get imposter ditto on the battle field as a normal ditto under some weird circumstances? Me and harsha tested a while back and if you switch it right after something dies (kill something with volt turn for example) regular ditto comes out but the second they switch it changes into what they switch (effectively your opponent controls what it turns into). Anything else like that maybe with red card or something.
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It's really tricky, but it's no harder than sending in any other frail Pokemon. Being able to switch in is in general the trickiest proposition with Ditto, but you're gonna have that problem scarf or not. Slow volturn or baton pass (or fast baton pass with a lucky sub), suicide setups from almost any support pokemon out there with almost any move asides from memento. Also just regular old revenge kills, since I have never fought an opponent who didn't assume scarf making it really easy to throw out the obvious revenge kill move against a boosted sweeper and worst case scenario with Focus Sash Ditto come out at 1% on the wrong side of the speed tie.

Certainly, I don't think any other items that choice scarf are as consistent as choice scarf is. Where as choice scarf is really easy to throw out on any revenge kill against something not behing a sub, other items require rapid spin, status, or some other kind of similar support to function effectively. I can not stress though how effective these sets have been in the past for me, though it's been more than a year (what!) since black and white came out and I made some serious "ditto teams". Now that he's legal in regular OU, I'm gonna try out a couple of new teams with scarf and non scarf ditto and see if especially sash, leftovers and salac/custap berry are worth it.
 
breh said:
fully invested 48 base is aboooout equal to uninvested base 80. Pokemon like Haxorus have base 76. Its HP is not crippling if you use it to revenge things.
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Yeah, people always forget that Ditto can fully invest in its HP stat and will actually be just as bulky as most sweepers with uninvested HP stats and sometimes even a little bulkier. If you switch Ditto in on Keldeo/Terrakion you just have a mere 22 HP less assuming they are at full health.

Most Pokemon also resist their stab attacks so its really not that hard to switch-in, however i think people overestimate its sweeping potential. Sure if you boost your Dragonite to +6/6 you will be swept by Ditto, but since its always locked into one attack you will likely have something that resists that attack.
 
Well, with Imposter Ditto now legal, one of two things should happen:7

1: Imposter Ditto kills set-up in the metagame, making it reolve even more around weather boosts.

2: Ditto gets banned because it make set-up unviable.

The way I see it, Imposter Ditto is arguably broken, because you can send it in on something that sets up, and it literally hurls all the momentum back at the person who set-up. That ruins offenseive teams so badly it's not funny.
 
Raikaria said:
Well, with Imposter Ditto now legal, one of two things should happen:7

1: Imposter Ditto kills set-up in the metagame, making it reolve even more around weather boosts.

2: Ditto gets banned because it make set-up unviable.

The way I see it, Imposter Ditto is arguably broken, because you can send it in on something that sets up, and it literally hurls all the momentum back at the person who set-up. That ruins offenseive teams so badly it's not funny.
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Neither one happened in DW OU, so there's no reason to expect either one to happen here.
 
Choice Scarf is the only way to go for a 99% guarantee of successful Ditto. And if you don't have coverage on your own team for a +1/+1 Dnite locked into (most likely) Outrage or ES, you're probably not ranking high on the ladder.

I'd understand if you had to carry one specific counter/check for Ditto on every team to deem it broken. But he has the same counters/checks as whatever he turns into. So it creates diversity in choosing how to counter/check Ditto because it all revolves around what YOUR team is. It encourages the use of not simply one Pokemon for anti-Ditto work, but a range of Pokemon that vary based on each team. As far as I can tell, that's pretty healthy for a metagame. It's just a new mindset since this sort of mechanic has never been in play before.
 
Raikaria said:
Well, with Imposter Ditto now legal, one of two things should happen:7

1: Imposter Ditto kills set-up in the metagame, making it reolve even more around weather boosts.

2: Ditto gets banned because it make set-up unviable.

The way I see it, Imposter Ditto is arguably broken, because you can send it in on something that sets up, and it literally hurls all the momentum back at the person who set-up. That ruins offenseive teams so badly it's not funny.
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http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3468646
Don't talk about banning or unbanning things. A thread by Tobus....
You SHOULD read it ;)
 
One must be careful.

Ditto has potential to be a revenge killer, but after the initial shock to the opponent about having your sweeper KO'd by a blob of silly putty in disguise, I think it would be easy to adapt your tactics to avoid getting Revenge Killed again.
Ditto adds another threat to the game, but will not completely revolutionize the meta-game itself.
If any of you would like to use Ditto in OU, that is your right. But I believe that the fact that Ditto is not in OU shows that he is not quite up to the caliber and destructive power of a true OU Pokemon.
 
Ditto will probabily be fanstastic when you are low in the ladder, but as you climb the ladder and start facing tough opponents, it'll probabily become almost a dead weight. Pretty much like a certain electric pokémon back in DP.
In order to get versatility, Ditto loses mometum, as you are unable to copy a pokémon until it comes out of its pokeball. And in order to permorm "multiple roles", Ditto has to switch out (and lose mometum). It can steal your cleric, it can steal you hazard or your spinner, but not at the same time.
Ditto surely puts set up sweepers in check, but getting +2 on anything is already difficult in a tough battle. If you really let an opposing Ditto steal +6 / +6 boost, sorry, but you deserve to lose. And +1/+1, +2/+2 sweepers are tough to beat but not impossible, specially if they can't switch moves.
So, Ditto is really something to watch out, but it doesn't come without flaws (he is not Arceus)
 
Scarfwynaut said:
Dream world is cool an all, but its not a perfect model for the OU metagame to follow, I mean look how long they put up with Chandelure.
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Chandelure is usually a one-for-one revenge killer as it is easily revenge killed itself by Tyranitar. It also can't switch in on anything; switching into Breloom sounds like a good idea, but doing so means eating Bullet Seed (54.19 - 64.12% if hit by 5) or worse, Spore, which allows Breloom to hack away at it.

The Scarf set was all we have to "put up" with because Sub+CM was so hard to pull off unless you're sending it in on a choiced Fighting move.
 
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