I don't think I've seen you on the Dream World ladder or posting in the Dream World forums, so where exactly is your experience with Chandelure aside from theorymon?
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Ditto
- Thread starter Emperor
- Start date
I don't think I've seen you on the Dream World ladder or posting in the Dream World forums, so where exactly is your experience with Chandelure aside from theorymon?
Well I don't, although I do lurk a lot, and as a defensive player this would absolutely ruin me, sure a few stall teams have withstood its wrath (my current team is actually molded after a DW stall team), I really don't want to deal with it at all. Ive seen the DW articles and I refuse to use shed shell on all my defensive pokemon.
So excuse me in my fear, and try not to call me out in the future ok ;).
So excuse me in my fear, and try not to call me out in the future ok ;).
You only have to run Shed Shell on Blissey, who can't touch Chandelure any other way. Everything else on a stall teams (Ferrothorn can Bulldoze even) has a way to hurt Chandelure. I said it once before, but Chandelure didn't kill stall. It was Keldeo and Breloom.
0/0 Ferro using Bulldoze against 0/0 Chandelure deals: 34.5% - 41.4%, which is an unlikely 2HKO but still a good amount of damage with an uninvested move.
It is sad that Ferrothorn can't survive a Timid Overheat in the rain unless it invests 100% into Special Defense with a boosting nature.
Chandelure is essentially a one trick pony. Unless you're coming in on a move that it resists or is immune to, something that players with team preview are very vigilant at avoiding, Chandelure is used for one thing; coming in on a mon' after it's killed one of yours and seeking revenge. There is NO Pokemon that does this better than Chandelure. However, this has some problems associated with it. For one, you are always playing behind the opponents momentum. Chandy will always be choiced, and anytime you come in and revenge kill, you're locked in to a move (especially bad if Overheat) that the opponent can just come in after said revenge and force a free switch. This can be very dangerous with so many powerful set-up threats around. Even if they do not set up on you, often times you're either losing Chandy for fear of your switch in being OHKO'd, losing your switch due to an OHKO, losing your switch due to a 2HKO'd after being hit on the switch then outsped, or you lose Chandy anyway thanks to a Pursuit.
Even though Chandy seems like it grants you free kills, often times it means you're just making up for your losses your opponent has given you but never really pulling ahead of them. Chandy is also dead weight very often as a last mon since Energy Ball/Shadow Ball are easily resisted and the Special Attack drop on Overheat is very easily exploited. It is also very easy to be put in to a bad situation when your opponent swaps to a set up threat that resists your choiced move because it was carrying Shed Shell and you had no way to verify (Ferrothorn is bad for this).
It also doesn't help that this is always the situation whenever Tyranitar is on the opposite team, which is already a heavily OU mon without the need to check Chandy.
Chandelures biggest merit is that it will usually get to choose what dies and when, and ensure that happens. So the player needs to make it count.
It's been a while since I played the DW tier, but that was my experience with using and facing Chandy anyhow.
Even though Chandy seems like it grants you free kills, often times it means you're just making up for your losses your opponent has given you but never really pulling ahead of them. Chandy is also dead weight very often as a last mon since Energy Ball/Shadow Ball are easily resisted and the Special Attack drop on Overheat is very easily exploited. It is also very easy to be put in to a bad situation when your opponent swaps to a set up threat that resists your choiced move because it was carrying Shed Shell and you had no way to verify (Ferrothorn is bad for this).
It also doesn't help that this is always the situation whenever Tyranitar is on the opposite team, which is already a heavily OU mon without the need to check Chandy.
Chandelures biggest merit is that it will usually get to choose what dies and when, and ensure that happens. So the player needs to make it count.
It's been a while since I played the DW tier, but that was my experience with using and facing Chandy anyhow.
I would argue that it doesn't matter what Hidden Power Ditto uses. Coming in on most special sweepers ends poorly for Ditto. Aside from Thundurus-T or Landlorus-I using their own STAB against them is probably your best option. Assuming they boosted it up to a reasonable point (which I hope they haven't).
HP Ice is the best way to go, but as Matthew said special attackers aren't Ditto's forte. Just use their STAB, because that way you can also hit whatever they switch to hard ie Latios' Draco Meteor, Tornadus' Hurricane, etc.
Once all their steel type are gone and outraging dragons can cause your team to lose up against dittos in most situations. Atleast that was the case for me in dw. Ho ice seems to work the best and for ppl saying he is useless once they switch in their scarf..the user of ditto can simply switch out. Not a big deal at all. If this guy was in the top 40 for dw ou, he will easily make top 30 for standard ou.
Ditto, besides being able to revenge kill can also make an excellent scout and lead. On versatile pokemon such as mew you never know what set it's going to run, but ditto can instantly transform and let you know. It provides pivotal information and lets you know what on your team can check/counter a certain threat. IMO ditto is more suited for gathering information than revenging. As tiering goes, I think it will stay ou for a while then it will possibly whither down to uu. But with how HO is in the current meta it's more likely it will be firmly placed in OU.
Holding onto a sash is extremely difficult without the right typing or ability.
Anyway a lot of people run substitute on their set up sweepers so if ditto is becoming that much of a problem then people will favour DD gyarados/ Dragonite over DD mence. There are also a lot of notable SubCM users like latias and Jirachi even volcarona ca nrun it so i think that the few paranoid people will just use substitute however it is not that difficult to counter simple entry hazards and quick thinking can quickly dispatch of it. I play a lot in DW OU so i like to think that i am not talking without experience.
QFT. If hyper offense wants to survive it's gonna have to adapt, Sub is a good way for sweepers to avoid Ditto.
Honestly, Ditto strikes me as being extremely overhyped. Sure, if you go against HO or someone willing to mindlessly SD/DD against you, it's good. However, looking at the top 50, the setup sweepers I see are SD Scizor (lock yourself into Superpower, please), DDNite, Terra (just play it like CB vs Ditto, or sub if you have it), Lucario, Conkeldurr, Virizion and Cloyster. There's maybe two mons there I'd be bothered about having Ditto against, and more often than not, it's going to do no better than any other random scarfer. Not to mention that almost all of these have a move capable of hitting Ditto hard on the switch, so you've got to be extremely careful about switching in in the first place.
So, what does it offer outside of revenge killing? Not a lot. If you try to use it vs stall, bearing in mind that you're only really going to be using Ditto on more offensive teams, you're just asking to lose. I'd quite happily let people use Ditto to try and Spike/Spin vs me, as any full stall team is going to carry either a spin blocker, or something like a Tyranitar. Either they Spike, and you get an easy Spin/switch to whatever to take advantage of choice locked Spikes, or they Spin, and you block/Pursuit it.
Basically, I'd much rather use a normal Scarfer that will be consistently useful outside of revenge killing (i.e. Landorus, Rotom, Jirachi, whatever) 95% of the time. I really wouldn't be surprised to see Ditto drop to UU once the hype dies down.
So, what does it offer outside of revenge killing? Not a lot. If you try to use it vs stall, bearing in mind that you're only really going to be using Ditto on more offensive teams, you're just asking to lose. I'd quite happily let people use Ditto to try and Spike/Spin vs me, as any full stall team is going to carry either a spin blocker, or something like a Tyranitar. Either they Spike, and you get an easy Spin/switch to whatever to take advantage of choice locked Spikes, or they Spin, and you block/Pursuit it.
Basically, I'd much rather use a normal Scarfer that will be consistently useful outside of revenge killing (i.e. Landorus, Rotom, Jirachi, whatever) 95% of the time. I really wouldn't be surprised to see Ditto drop to UU once the hype dies down.
If you have Fiery Dance on your set then no. Fiery Dance raises your SpA so eventually it will outpace your roost stalling.
I imagine Ditto will work much like Espeon does with hazards. It's presence alone makes someone wary of set up, but it will find a way to get smacked at one point. The utility of it isn't worth giving up a team slot. I woulda be interested if Ditto had role outside of revenge killling. Lol metalpowder anyone? Make yourself bulkier than your foe?
The powders don't work after Ditto transforms; otherwise Ditto would always use Quick Powder.
Unless the mechanics changed in BW2, metal powder stops being effective the minute you transform.
It would actually be nice if they gave Ditto some real moves now. Things that still fit the theme:
Transform
Minimize
Acid Armor
Mimic
Camouflage
Copycat
Entrainment
Me First
Psych Up
Reflect Type
Teeter Dance
Snatch
Substitute
Metronome
Encore
Undecided:
Protect
Wide Guard
Not really, unless you plan on switching into Substitutes.
I've been playing with this guy in ou and he's pretty damn awesome. I don't make the mistake of running scarf as it effectively risks making ditto deadweight and easily played around. His main and most useful purpose is scouting movesets and allowing the player to know the perfect switchin. Just by looking at a moveset you can usually tell if something is choiced or not. I put quick claw on the sucker for the occassional countersweep measures and it has saved me a few times. It makes sense though as in the case of a setup sweeper, you're looking at a 50/50 chance of striking first. Quick Claw further tips the odds in your favor. He's definitely not the messiah of the metagame or anything too formidable, but he fills a nice niche and I think going forward will help keep certain threats from being too dominant in the future. We won't have to ban as much!
....The definition on serebii is
When this item is held, the user has an 18.75% chance of attacking first if the moves all Pokémon use are within the same Speed Priority level.
Yea. He's saying that regularly, it's a 50:50 chance of wining because they are at a speed tie. But quick claw will make it like 60:40 or something
Using Ditto as a scout is brilliant. Just now in a battle my opponent was running a special landorus (oddly enough) and ditto was able to scout his moves...no stone edge...so later on i knew my volcarona could quiver dance in the landorus' face without fear of a OHKO. Since often a battle is a battle of information, just knowing the moves of one pokemon can give you a free switch-in...and when the switch-in is something lethal like volcarona, it's worth the team slot.