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Ditto

king_wallace said:
I know tiers are determined by usage. What I was trying to get at was that if ditto is deemed OU (given its usage) that would effectively ban it from being used in lower tiers, correct? However, it would seem it shouldn't be banned from other tiers because it wouldn't be overpowered in lower tiers: you can't transform into Garchomp in UU, just whatever UU pokes your opponent is using, Since ditto's prowess is directly related to those pokemon, it wouldn't be overpowered in UU or NU if it wasn't in OU. Let me know if there's something I'm missing about that.

So basically, would it make sense not to determine Ditto's tier by usage (assuming it isn't put into Ubers), and instead make it effectively tier-less? It would be the opposite of putting it on a banlist.
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When Umbreon became OU, it became banned from lower tiers, despite it obviously not being broken in lower tiers. What you propose is not how the tiering system works. Aside from the banlists Uber and BL, we do not base tiers on power, we base them on usage.

Now stop talking about tiers, that's not what this thread is here for.
 
One point of tier lists is to provide people with a rough idea what the most used Pokemon in each metagame is, so Ditto should be placed in the tier its usage correlates with, no matter how good it is in each tier.
 
I don't think Ditto can sweep unless it is not carrying a choice item and fools the opponent. They can at least force Ditto to switch by bringing in a pokemon that resists the move you are trying to use (for example, bring Skarm in on an Outrage). Plus any faster scarf pokemon can revenge kill it, or a even a focus sash magic guard user like Alakazam could work. But being locked into a move does not seem like a good way to sweep, and you also lose the opponent's item power.
 
Zeburaika said:
I don't think Ditto can sweep unless it is not carrying a choice item and fools the opponent. They can at least force Ditto to switch by bringing in a pokemon that resists the move you are trying to use (for example, bring Skarm in on an Outrage). Plus any faster scarf pokemon can revenge kill it, or a even a focus sash magic guard user like Alakazam could work. But being locked into a move does not seem like a good way to sweep, and you also lose the opponent's item power.
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I think you're forgetting the fact that Ditto would be revenging a pokemon that was using stat boosts (ex Dragon Dance) and would ultimately be faster that any Choice Scarf user you have (unless YOU had a Ditto as you revenge killer, then it would be 50/50). But the main point of Ditto is to revenge kill, not steal an opponent's sweep.
 
Crystic said:
I think you're forgetting the fact that Ditto would be revenging a pokemon that was using stat boosts (ex Dragon Dance) and would ultimately be faster that any Choice Scarf user you have (unless YOU had a Ditto as you revenge killer, then it would be 50/50). But the main point of Ditto is to revenge kill, not steal an opponent's sweep.
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Actually, I mean that unless your pokemon is utterly helpless against the opponent and can't switch, either, then the opponent probably won't get more than 2 or maybe 3 boosts. A pokemon that resists the move Ditto is locked into would probably survive, especially since Ditto would have no Life Orb or Choice Specs/Band boost.
 
Zeburaika said:
Actually, I mean that unless your pokemon is utterly helpless against the opponent and can't switch, either, then the opponent probably won't get more than 2 or maybe 3 boosts. A pokemon that resists the move Ditto is locked into would probably survive, especially since Ditto would have no Life Orb or Choice Specs/Band boost.
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You have to consider that 2 or 3 boosts is still a lot though. It's going to hurt
 
Hey guys.

I have another set.

Ditto @ Focus Sash
Ability: Eccentric
Nature: Does This Really Matter
EVs: 252 HP/13 ATK/37 DEF/90 Sp. Atk/0 Sp. Def/1 Speed
-Transform

Imagine this scenario.

You sent out Onokusu/Urgamoth/Salamence/Cloyster/Someone else who has Shell Break/Dragon Dance/Butterfly Dance!

*whatever*

You used a move that boosted your attacking stat and speed!
Opponent thinks: Ah, he's going to go set up. This will be perfect Ditto food once he gets up to +6. Better act like an idiot for a few turns.

*more dancing/breaking and idiotry*

Stat-boosting mon got to +6!

Opponent sent out Ditto!

Ditto massacred you!

You sent out Ditto!

The opponent's Ditto did the same thing!

You survived the attack with your Focus Sash!

You did the same thing again!

Opponent's Ditto fainted!

You now have a +6 sweeper who can actually switch between his moves!

Opponent forfeited.
 
Actually... a ditto cant transform into another ditto if the second ditto is already transformed.

in other words.

+2 attack lucario is on the field.
ditto "A" comes in and revenge kills lucario and has all the stat boosts.
ditto "B" comes in to try and revenge kill the ditto "A" who is transformed into a lucario. But realizes he can't because he isn't transforming into lucario... he is transforming into a "ditto" still because the opponent is still technically a ditto.
ditto "A" rapes ditto "B" with all his lucario glory.


I tried to revenge kill a ditto that revenge killed my gengar... didnt understand why he didnt change for a minute.

ALSO, he wont transform if the enemy is a zoroark who is disguised as another pokemon. He just sits there and looks silly as the zoroark makes you feel dumb for being tricked at what it actually is.


Maybe this is a glitch on PO, but that seems to be how it works.
 
RaRaRabbit said:
Actually... a ditto cant transform into another ditto if the second ditto is already transformed.

in other words.

+2 attack lucario is on the field.
ditto "A" comes in and revenge kills lucario and has all the stat boosts.
ditto "B" comes in to try and revenge kill the ditto "A" who is transformed into a lucario. But realizes he can't because he isn't transforming into lucario... he is transforming into a "ditto" still because the opponent is still technically a ditto.
ditto "A" rapes ditto "B" with all his lucario glory.


I tried to revenge kill a ditto that revenge killed my gengar... didnt understand why he didnt change for a minute.

ALSO, he wont transform if the enemy is a zoroark who is disguised as another pokemon. He just sits there and looks silly as the zoroark makes you feel dumb for being tricked at what it actually is.


Maybe this is a glitch on PO, but that seems to be how it works.
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After generation 1, you can't use Transform (the move) on a transformed pokemon, so I assume it is not a glitch and eccentric works that way, too.
 
RaRaRabbit said:
Actually... a ditto cant transform into another ditto if the second ditto is already transformed.

in other words.

+2 attack lucario is on the field.
ditto "A" comes in and revenge kills lucario and has all the stat boosts.
ditto "B" comes in to try and revenge kill the ditto "A" who is transformed into a lucario. But realizes he can't because he isn't transforming into lucario... he is transforming into a "ditto" still because the opponent is still technically a ditto.
ditto "A" rapes ditto "B" with all his lucario glory.


I tried to revenge kill a ditto that revenge killed my gengar... didnt understand why he didnt change for a minute.

ALSO, he wont transform if the enemy is a zoroark who is disguised as another pokemon. He just sits there and looks silly as the zoroark makes you feel dumb for being tricked at what it actually is.


Maybe this is a glitch on PO, but that seems to be how it works.
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The Ditto thing is accurate in-game wise.

The Zoroark thing isn't though I'm quite sure that Ditto then transforms into Zoroark in-game (even when hes disguised). Only played one wifi battle where i had this scenario come up so someone needs to test.
 
Transform fails on Sub. Thus making Sub incredibly important. And making defensive boosts more important. Dragon Dance is less good whiel Bulk up and the like are better(although still having that annoying crit thingy.)
 
Unless you have some form of recovery allong with Bulk Up, Ditto will still get the Def boosts you do, so it can still XHKO you before you can XHKO it. Of course, if you have a recovery move or significantly more HP than Ditto, you could end up winning.

@ Ditto can't revenge kill Ditto: This is pretty situational, but Ditto can revenge kill other Ditto, as long as that Ditto is locked into a Ghost attack. Ditto is immune to Ghost attacks and even though Transform will still keep failing against the opponent, Transform as 16 PP while the Ghost attack will only have a maximum of 4 PP due to Eccentric only giving it 5 PP per move and using one for the kill.

This means that the second Ditto can easily PP stall the first Ditto and force it to Struggle. If the first Ditto switches out, the second Ditto will Transform into whatever comes in, and could proceed to KO it with its own move, or atleast find out its moveset.
 
doomvendingmachine said:
Still too much of a gimmick imo for any serious battler. Who wants to rely on a 50/50 speed tie to see who wins a game? This will be used by a lot of newbs at the bottom of the ladder though i think.
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ditto with scarf would outspeed anything, as it should copy the boost from scarf before factoring in its own.
 
VentusVictory said:
Ditto's gonna be great in BW, even if he's just a gimmick. Won't people be so frustrated when Ditto sweeps their team?
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Ditto is way more than a gimmick it is in fact one of the most dangerous/useful things in Gen 5 for now, being able to revenge lots of sweepers or even sweep itself if your opponent is not careful.

I would say its usable on every team regardless of the teams play style and will almost certainly be a valuable and useful member of it.
 
The main problem I'm seeing now with ditto sweeping is the opponent seeing your team beforehand. Ditto sweeping works better with an element of surprise. Nobody is going to get a +6 when the opponent knows you have a ditto. They're going to take precautions. :/

Still, that doesn't mean you shouldn't use ditto. The ability to make an opponent second guess themselves, see movesets, and revenge kill is awesome :D
 
Emperor said:
The main problem I'm seeing now with ditto sweeping is the opponent seeing your team beforehand. Ditto sweeping works better with an element of surprise. Nobody is going to get a +6 when the opponent knows you have a ditto. They're going to take precautions. :/

Still, that doesn't mean you shouldn't use ditto. The ability to make an opponent second guess themselves, see movesets, and revenge kill is awesome :D
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Last I heard, we don't know whether that will be incorporated into the new system, since it only happens for certain types of battles.
 
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