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Double Battle Metagame.

The problem with Teeter Dance is it'll hit Alakazam as well, and I don't think you want that. I like the idea of dual Trick/Torment, because it leaves half the team unable to act while you can set something up, but I'm not sure if Smeargle is the one to do it. If you want two Trick/Torment users that are immune to Fake Out, you can go with Alakazam, like you have already, and a Dusknoir. You could also replace Alakazam with Gengar, and lead with a Dual Ghost lead.

Dual Trick is, like many things, stopped by Follow Me. You could always Trick something onto the Follow Me user, but their main job is to keep using Follow Me anyway. You have a few options:

1) Lock your two pokemon into an attack in the hopes of Killing the Follow Me user.
2) Have one pokemon use Trick, while the other one uses Torment. Now the Follow Me user will struggle next turn, but one of your Pokemon is locked into Torment. He'll probably have to switch out.
3) Have one pokemon use Trick, while the other one is traded out for another pokemon without a Choice item.


Of course, another solution is to only have one pokemon use Trick, while the other one uses Torment without a Choice Item for a one-two punch on turn 1. You will have to make a decision about which pokemon needs to be stopped, because usually there will be one Support pokemon and one Offensive pokemon; if the Support Pokemon is the kind that only needs one turn to setup, you probably won't be able to stop it, so focus on the one that would get benefits from setup. If it's a many-turn setup, you can stop it cold by Trick/Tormenting the support Pokemon.

As for what is 'set up' after you pull this off, that would rely on the rest of the team.
 
Thx for the help False, unfourtunately i won't be able to use Gengar and Dusknoir with trick, as i don't have platinum as it isn't released in UK till next week or so? Although i do agree, two ghosts would be so much better, but i have no choice but to do it with smeargle and alakazam, i doubt i will be able to get to that point in platinum within 6 days of its release, to have a team ready, and able to use plat move tutors, in time for the UK round of the world championship.
Thing about smeargle and alakazam, is that they can pretty much out run other pokemon (smeargle with the scarf) and so avoid taunt, which dusknoir won't.

How do you think the dual trick/torment would work if the other two pokemon were part of a rain dance team for example? Such as ludicolo and kingdra maybe?

Follow me is a big threat, but in the world championship qualifier, i doubt i will encounter one, that is a risk i am willing to take. I am however feeling quite afraid of a combination of garchomp and zapdos, EQ, and discharge, for example, although this team might work against more strategic teams in theory, i have no idea how it will cope with more offensive double teams. What is the best way to stop someone just coming along with rly strong pokemon and blitzing me with powerful attacks? Tricking choice items will have no effect if they were just going to spam the same attack anyway.
 
Have you thought of using a pokemon with Encore instead? It essentially does the same thing considering how long Double Battles seem to last and it opens up your options a little more as you don't have Platinum. Also, you don't have to worry so much about Tricking a Choice item onto an offensive pokemon and having them use the bonus to their advantage. It still doesn't really take care of the Follow Me problem though.
 
I'm having a hard time figuring out main member number 4 for my Hail team. The team is being designed to respond to several different threats; not just Hail, but Rain teams as well. Here are the three current members. No Natures or EVs at the moment, as it's all still in the planning stage.

Abomasnow @ Focus Sash
-Ice Shard
-Blizzard
-Wood Hammer
-Protect

Lead number 1. Abomasnow's main job is to set up Hail, so just being out means he's done his job. Wood Hammer is there, among other things, to take care of Hippowdon, who is slower than Abomasnow and therefore gets Sandstorm set up before hail.

Infernape @ ?
-Fake Out
-Taunt
-Heat Wave
-Close Combat

Lead number 2. Infernape is there to stop as much setup as he can. I couldn't decide over Fake Out or Taunt, especially since in normal 2v2 you have no idea what the opponent is going to use as a lead, so I ditched Protect and went with both.

Kingdra @ White Herb
Swift Swim
-Hydro Pump
-Blizzard
-Draco Meteor
-Protect

Anti-rain pokemon. Kingdra is designed to work under both Rain and Hail, and stop other Kingdra if the need arises with Draco Meteor.


So as you can see, only one of the members of my Hail team is Ice type. This is partially to handle several threats, and partially to try and avoid a Fire, Rock, or Steel weakness that is prevalent on your average Hail team. Should team member number 4 be an Ice type, like Froslass or Mamoswine? My current pick for a non-ice type would be either Quagsire or Swampert, in order to combat Electrics.
 
If you feel that you can handle TR teams well already, you may want to go with Frosslass to take advantage of it's speed to sweep teams with. You may not want to have Abomasnow as your lead since more likely than not, your opponent is going to try to set up their Weather first turn anyway, so the hail will just be removed quickly and you will have to switch him out and in again to get it back, costing you two of your turns. You may be better off pairing him with An Anti-TR Lead that will attract attacks which Abomasnow can take.
 
I don't know of many attacks that Abomasnow can actually take. Haha.
However, seeing as how most of your team isn't an ice-type already, it could be to your advantage to surprise the opponent with an inconspicuous Pokemon (ice-type or not) that sets up Hail, either replacing Abomasnow or as a back up Hail setter.

I would think that since most teams do not run multiple weather effects, the Taunt on Infernape is a suitable Anti-Trick Room.
 
Maybe I could lead with Infernape and Kingdra/Frosslass/Another pokemon, and switch in Abomasnow when it's most convenient in order to start the Hail. If it's Infernape and Kingdra, that will discourage Eruption/Heat Wave attacks, since neither pokemon takes Neutral damage from fire attacks. If it's Infernape and Frosslass, Infernape can Fake Out while Frosslass taunts, hopefully stopping any sort of setup barring the old Follow Me/Trick Room startup, which Infernape/Abomasnow could hopefully handle by just using Heat Wave and Blizzard.
 
Sneasal @ focus sash
brick break
ice shard
ice punch
protect

Gengar @ ???
shadow ball
t-bolt
taunt
protect

I was thinking of a sneasal/gengar move set instead of weavile.
You may think I'm crazy but sneasal has something weavile lacks that is great for doubles. That is the ability inner focus. Though weaker in every aspect, he won't get flinched against weaviles and brick break for the kill and ice shard when needed. Gengar will wreck dusknoir with taunt while sneasal uses fake out on smeargle and ice shards for the kill. I was thinking of maybe subbing sneasal for weavile of course, as he doesn't hit as hard, infernape who can do the same thing without inner focus, or something that uses inner focus better. thanks in advance.
 
i like the trick torment but just remember torment isnt like taunt and wont stop the move from happening 2nd turn

i feel like this team wants to be a encore disable team which i find much more better seeing as you wont always have trick working 100% of the time
 
A to the Z said:
Sneasal @ focus sash
brick break
ice shard
ice punch
protect
Click to expand...
Not a bad idea in theory but it's a case of a counter to a counter being countered by what the counter was built to counter.
By trading off Weavile's advantages against common pokémon for ability to defeat Weavile, you've ended up with a Pokémon that plainly sucks against anything not named Weavile, which isn't that common anyway. You'd be better off having something as simple as Lucario with Mach Punch. Fake Out does nothing to it and you can OHKO right back with Mach Punch or even Close Combat. Pretty much.
 
All right, after some testing on Netbattle, I'd say a hail team is a lot of fun to use, even though mine is still a bit flawed. Here's the current main 4.

395.png

Infernape @ Lum Berry
-Fake Out
-Protect
-Heat Wave
-Close Combat

Infernape hasn't changed much, although I gave up Taunt on him for Protect. That's just because his new parter takes up the slack.

483.png

Froslass @ Focus Sash
-Blizzard
-Thunderbolt
-Protect
-Taunt

Although she might betray the true purpose of the team right away, it works a lot better having her out front instead of Abomasnow. The only thing I'm still debating on with her is if Protect should be replaced with Shadow Ball; I usually don't bother with Protect on my ghosts, but Froslass is incredibly fragile, even with the Focus Sash.

465.png

Abomasnow @ Occa Berry
-Ice Shard
-Blizzard
-Wood Hammer
-Protect

Abomasnow is a fun guy to use because, barring Cloud Nine Golduck (Golduck usually has Damp in Doubles anyhow), I can get Hail set up whenever I want. Feargle leads can usually be stopped before a single Endeavor just by using Heat Wave or Blizzard, and switching Abomasnow with the non-attacking lead.

260.png

Swampert @ Leftovers
-Muddy Water
-Blizzard
-Earthquake
-Protect

Swampert replaces Kingdra from the old idea for the team; he might not get the speed boost in Rain Kingdra gets, but I've found Abomasnow is usually pretty good about stopping that.

Muddy Water has been an interesting move to use so far; it's basically Surf, except it only hits two targets, has a lower accuracy, and a chance to lower the opponents accuracy one level. The Accuracy drop rarely kicks in, but when it does it's always welcome, especially with Froslass' ability.

Earthquake might seem strange on a team of non-levitators, but it's actually invaluable; with everyone else on the team made of Glass, Swampert is usually the last one alive. Earthquake is a failsafe move, with 100 accuracy that doesn't rely on it Hailing.

Of course, I could always just trade it out for Earth Power, who knows.
 
If you really want to stop Follow Me + Trick Room leads, a Ghost with Imprison is probably the only guaranteed way to stop it; Immunity to Fake Out and not caring about Follow Me mean it'll stop Smeargle dead, along with any other Follow Me user. You probably don't need to worry about having a Choice Scarf, as the fastest Follow Me user that also has Taunt is Electivire at 95 speed; Mismagius sits above that speed level comfortably. Of course, the fastest pokemon you're probably going to be running into on a Trick Room team is Smeargle, so you could probably even get away with using a Dusknoir.

If you aren't concerned about Fake Out, you could go for extra durabilty with Uxie, or totally block them from using Trick Room AND Explosion with Azelf.
 
2 vs 2 Shuckle and Slaking combo!

213.png

Bold @ Leftovers
252 HP/208 Def/48 SpD
-Rest
-Encore
-Toxic
-Gastro Acid

289.png

Jolly @ Life Orb
6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
-Return
-Substitute
-Focus Punch
-Fire Punch

The point is to unleash Slaking's HUGE power on the foe. Once Shuckle hits Slaking with Gastro Acid, his ability Truant is nullified, letting him hit every single turn. Slaking causes massive damage and can hit anything very...VERY hard.
 
False said:
If you really want to stop Follow Me + Trick Room leads, a Ghost with Imprison is probably the only guaranteed way to stop it
Click to expand...
well if they are going to use follow me on that set then another way to counter it is to use a move that hits both of their pokemon hard enough to KO both...something like a helping hand boosted Eruption

btw could anyone give me a list of all the common pokemon used at the VGC that have follow me and a list of all the pokemon that have fake out. it would be greatly appreciated.
 
I'm not 100% on this, but wouldn't using Fake Out on their follow me pokemon, mean that it couldn't use follow me that turn. Since Imprison would go before Trick Room regardless, then would it mean that Trick is blocked?
 
latios315 said:
imprison and trick room of course, also preferably a ghost so it can't be faked out. iirc the only ghost w/ imprison+ trick room is dusknoir
Click to expand...

The other two are Banette, which is kind of a silly choice, and Mismagius, who is probably the best choice, in order to avoid Taunt.

One of the VGS winning teams, designed by zerowing, shows an example of using Dusknoir as the Imprionser, with just enough Speed EVs to outspeed other Dusknoir.
 
It's nice to see so many people expressing an interest in double battles. I'll share an idea that I used to great sucess before Platinum came out.

This is a combo I have used a couple of times. Rather than focus on any actual strategy, I picked out two Pokemon that handled the threats posed to one another. Sadly the lack of taunt leaves me somewhat vulnerable to Trick Room teams, which is why I no longer use it.

Yanmega @ Life orb
Modest
Speed-boost
EVs: 252 Satk, 252 Speed, 4 HP

-Hypnosis
-Air-slash
-Bug-buzz
-Detect


Hariyama @ Lum berry
Brave
Thick-fat
EVs: 252 HP, 252 atk, 4 def

-Fake out
-Helping hand
-Cross Chop
-Stone Edge

So, it starts out pretty simple. Hariyama uses fake out on whatever is going to threaten Yanmega, and I follow up with hypnosis. Now that one of the opponents Pokemon has been put out of commision with sleep status, Yanmega can safely fire off helping hand boosted Bug Buzz/Air Slash, killing the opponents before they get a chance to hit Yanmega back.

Of course, there are some things that Yanmega isn't going to be able to shoot down in one hit. That's where Hariyama comes in- it can take down the Pokemon that threaten Yanmega (Snorlax, Zapdos, Heatran, etc) with either cross chop or stone edge. Conversely, things that threaten Hariyama don't like being slapped around by Yanmega's STAB attacks (looking at you, psychics).

EVs are pretty obvious (there's most likely a more efficient spread for Hariyama though). Hariyama is brave as opposed to adamant just so I can handle trick room better. Yanmega is using detect over protect, just so I can bypass the occasional explosion/imprison combo.

The reason I don't use this now is because everyone has cottoned on to lum berry leads, and hypnosis having its accuracy dropped to 60% sure as hell did me no favours. Using this in VGS would be suicide. I just think it's a neat opening all the same, because it focuses on synergy between Pokemon and attacking types as opposed to one definitive strategy (rain dance, trick room, etc).

Oh, and this is my first post, so hi lol
 
Anyone considered two Inner Focus Pokemon? Fake Out is so common it isn't funny and so many strategies seem to be relying on it quite a bit.
 
I've seen Slaking + *insert Skill Swap here* Combos,but why isn't anyone using Worry seed instead?Is it because Skill Swap can screw over the next Pokemon it's applied to?
And Inner Focus...Notable Pokemon include:Dragonite,Crobat,Lucario,Alakazam
 
Worry Seed doesn't work with Traunt, and it might be a bit excessive using Inner Focus just to avoid one move, which is only a pain if you have to set up something.
 
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