Resource Doubles Overview, Rules, and Q&A - Ask Questions Here! (Resource Index Inside)

DaWoblefet

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This isn't a question specific to DOU, but I'm not sure where else to ask doubles-specific cartridge mechanics questions:
When Frisk activates and you get two messages telling you your opponents' items, what determines the order of the messages? Sometimes they go too fast for me to catch the whole message, especially with foreign mon names, and I'm often left guessing "ok I saw a sash, a life orb, and a bunch of chinese text, but I didn't catch who had what and it isn't obvious from context either", so any other clues would be helpful. The ingame help button doesn't keep track of your opponents' items either.
Frisk reveals items from the opponent's left to right (so it looks like right to left from your perspective). It's not Speed-based.
 
Not sure if this is the place to ask this, but I was wondering why Snorlax was so low on the VR when it was banned last Gen. I know pinch berries got nerfed, but it still got a bunch of new coverage options.
 
Not sure if this is the place to ask this, but I was wondering why Snorlax was so low on the VR when it was banned last Gen. I know pinch berries got nerfed, but it still got a bunch of new coverage options.
The main reason is Return isn't in Gen 8, as a result, Snorlax has to resort for Facade or Body Slam. Additionally, Incineroar can check it which becomes prominent after its hidden ability is released (Snorlax was banned before that happen). Pulling off Belly Drum feels more difficult in Gen 8 compared to Gen 7 with that format being bulkier and no relevant Fighting-types outside of Scrafty.
 

Checkmater

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Why isnt there a nat dex doubles format?
My understanding is that

1) Doubles playerbase is probably too small to split it like that
2) There are interactions between past gen mechanics and SS which are unavailable in any cart game and thus untestable. This also includes move/ability access constraints

anyone can feel free to correct since I haven't played a single game of SS
 

MajorBowman

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That's pretty much correct, mostly part 1 though because a natdex OU format does exist for singles and I imagine a natdex DOU format would just use whatever mechanics they settled on. There just isn't much interest within the core DOU playerbase for a natdex format, and splitting an already smaller-on-average community isn't the best idea.
 
My understanding is that

1) Doubles playerbase is probably too small to split it like that
2) There are interactions between past gen mechanics and SS which are unavailable in any cart game and thus untestable. This also includes move/ability access constraints

anyone can feel free to correct since I haven't played a single game of SS

I've seen custom DOU games that are basically Nat Dex doubles so seems mechanics isn't much of an issue.
 

Stratos

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I know it's off-topic, but... can someone explain this to me? People say this all the time, but everyone just assumes people will take that for granted and no one ever elaborates on what they mean.
I'm not trying to challenge you, and I'm not at all asking for a Natdex Doubles OU myself - I'm honestly just wondering what people mean by this.

This is the mechanics thread, and while obviously some of the decisions they made surrounding Dynamax were just their own ideas (and note that they did not make the same kinds of decisions for Z-Moves), that only applies to AG; Dynamax isn't in OU in the first place. Of the ones applicable to OU, there is only a single interaction I can see on this list that isn't something that actually happens in gameplay - and it's just the Utility Umbrella stopping Castform from changing form, which will never matter to anyone.
Emphasizing that 5 is their way to avoid making up new interactions. They're not saying "if Game Freak were here, they probably wouldn't let these moves become Z-Moves" - they're saying "we aren't going to make 'educated guesses' about this."
Meanwhile, 4, 6, 7, 10, 12 and 14 are all completely irrelevant to OU.

In what way are any of these rules inconsistent or fan extrapolation or anything? And what interactions do you think had to be made up? The basic rule is as simple as it could possibly be, and like every other OM, it can be summed up in one sentence without requiring any further elaboration at all: "things that exist in Gen VIII are exactly as they are in Gen VIII, and things that do not exist in Gen VIII are exactly as they were in Gen VII."
Honestly, in the context of OU and not AG, most of the "rules" on that thread are either restating that or dismissing all of the things people would ask that don't fall under that rule anyway - stuff like "can we make Garchomp compatible with Dragon Dance?" is obviously outside of its scope in the first place, and that bullet point is basically telling people who want it to become a pet mod that that's not what it is.

So... like... again, I'm not at all trying to say you don't have a valid reason not to want a Doubles OU and I'm not at all trying to push for a Doubles OU, so please don't take it that way! I'm just responding to this one statement in isolation. But could you or someone please explain why you feel this way?
Without diving too deep into this—they bring back Megas and Z moves. This right off the bat makes me completely disinclined to take NatDex seriously, especially Z moves. There is no reason to believe they will ever be in gen 8. NatDex OU doesn't serve as a "future OU" meta like DW OU did in BW, it's a fantasy meta that will obviously never exist. The fact that a NatDex DOU format would probably be forced to work under the same rules is one reason I am very disinclined to support its existence (though not the main reason—that would be the lack of a playerbase to support a separate ladder).
 

DaWoblefet

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I know it's off-topic, but... can someone explain this to me? People say this all the time, but everyone just assumes people will take that for granted and no one ever elaborates on what they mean.
As a mechanics researcher myself who very strongly emphasizes cartridge accuracy, I feel like I can offer some insight on how National Dex mechanics work and their consistency with cartridge play. I'll just address the mechanics that would be relevant in Doubles OU.

1) All past Pokemon are returning. This does not mean unreleased Pokemon (like Floette-E, or unreleased Gigantamax forms like Toxtricity's), but any Pokemon that was playable in standard Smogon Gen 7 formats. This also only applies to Gen 7 Pokemon, not past gen Pokemon like Cosplay Pikachu forms.
The ultimate decision of this is fairly irrelevant to the metagame as pastgen exclusive Pokemon and unreleased formes would generally not be good anyways. I think it's fair enough to say that because Totem Pokemon cannot be placed into Pokemon Bank, Game Freak pretty well ruled out in advance the idea of Totem Pokemon continuing to exist in Generation 8. I'd prefer this rule be stated and enforced with respect to "what can be put in Pokemon Bank" but it's moot.
2) Mega Pokemon and Primals are returning and will be usable. The mega restriction still applies (only once per battle, same as Dynamax).
One unanswered question is with regards to the interaction of Mega Evolving and Dynamaxing on the same turn with a different Pokemon - is the order in which they Mega or Dynamax determined by Speed? Does one always happen before the other? We're also making the assumption here all Mega stones are released (which wasn't the case in early SM for example), but I think that's fine given you're assuming Mega Evolution is possible.
3) None of these additional Pokemon will receive updated movesets. Even if it's likely Garchomp would be compatible with the Dragon Dance TR, that's not happening.
This makes sense generally speaking. You really have no idea what new Egg moves or TM moves a Pokemon would receive, and rather than arbitrarily decide which Pokemon "should" receive Egg and TM moves you just ignore the lists altogether.
4) If you have a mega stone, z-crystal, or primal orb on a Pokemon on your team, that Pokemon will not be able to Dynamax or Gigantamax. This restriction, however, will not impact the rest of your team, so you can use one z-move, mega evolve one Pokemon, and dynamax or gigantamax one Pokemon per battle.
Awful wording, but this is just saying you can't Dynamax a Pokemon holding a Mega Stone or Z-crystal. The "precedence" here is Rayquaza in Generation 7 being unable to both Mega Evolve and use a Z-move; if it was holding a Z-crystal, it would could only Z-move, never Mega Evolve, even if another mon used the Z-crystal. So the most current generation's mechanics are prioritized in the move selection screen, so the interaction in National Dex is against precedence. Of course, since pretty much every Pokemon can Dynamax you have to break that rule or else nothing could Z-move or Mega. But then it seems to me that being unable to Dynamax a Mega, or being unable to Dynamax a Z-crystal user is just arbitrary. Why can't I Dynamax my Kartana, get +1 Speed from Max Aerial Ace and set Grassy Terrain with Max Leaf Blade, then Z-Leaf Blade after my Dynamax ends? The real reason is because of balance, not because of any precedent. If anything, precedent is to allow Z-moves after a transformation. Ultra Necrozma is our best Gen 7 example of this - first you Ultra Burst, then you can Z-move, which replaces the previous Ultra Burst option. Why wouldn't Dynamax and Z-moves be the same?
5) No new moves added in gen 8 can be used for Z-moves. Behemoth Blade or Drum beating simply won't be compatible with Z-moves.
Sure, why not. This is the same logic as TRs and Egg moves; there's simply no data of what "Z-Behemoth Blade" means.
6) All moves are returning as well, meaning you'll have access to the moves cut out of Sword and Shield. They also do have max moves based on the regular max move formula (i.e. Pursuit turns into 90 BP Max Darkness).
This might come as a surprise to players, but Max Move BP of snapped moves exists. Return and Frustration, for example, are coded to have 130 base power as max moves, and Hidden Power follows the normal scale and will become 110 BP despite being potentially Fighting-type. So the second half of this actually isn't a National Dex mechanic.
8) Old items are being brought up to complete these mechanics changes (mega stones, etc.), as well as unique held items for Pokemon that were not included in Sword and Shield. The full list is: All Z-Crystals, Mega Stones, Arceus Plates (except Pixie Plate which is already in the game), and Genesect Drives, Blue Orb, Red Orb, Deep Sea Scale, Deep Sea Tooth, Lucky Punch, Soul Dew, Thick Club, Lustrous Orb, Adamant Orb, Griseous Orb.
This seems ok to me if you assume a Pokemon Bank-style restriction as I outlined in 1). You can't transfer items, so you can't transfer Rowap Berry when it's unable in SwSh. But then I see absolutely no reason why items like Soul Dew, Thick Club, or Deep Sea Scale are allowed; these aren't transformation items, and they don't relate to Mega Evolution or Z-crystals at all. It's just arbitrary that these items happen to be allowed and things like Custap Berry or Razor Claw aren't.
9) Generation 8 Pokemon can't learn moves that were removed in Sword and Shield since they aren't in their natural movesets. That includes formerly universal TMs like Hidden Power.
This makes complete sense.
12) If Ditto transforms into a Pokemon that cannot Dynamax, it will not be able to Dynamax. That includes Mega and Primal Pokemon, Ultra Necrozma, Zacian, Zamazenta, and Eternatus.
Can Ditto not Dynamax if it Transforms into a Pokemon holding a Z-crystal? Surely not, right? Can Ditto Dynamax if it Transforms into a Pokemon pre-Mega? I get the precedence here with Zacian and co. but this is very poorly worded.
13) Forecast will not transform Castform into its Sunny or Rainy forms if it's holding a Utility Umbrella, and if a Utility Umbrella is tricked onto Castform's Sunny or Rainy form, it will transform back to its base form. Since Utility Umbrella does not protect from Hail damage or effects, this does not apply to Castform's Snowy form.
An arbitrary distinction that as Hematite says, is largely irrelevant.
14) The max moves of Hidden Power and Judgment change type to be the type their non-max move variants have been set to be. For example, Arceus-Normal's Judgment becomes Max Strike, but its Hidden Power Fire would be Max Flare. This is because Multi Attack, which is actually in Sword and Shield, changes max move type in this manner.
I think from a mechanic perspective this makes perfect sense, as stated with Multi-Attack. However, from a competitive perspective, I think it's a nightmare. Giving nearly every Pokemon in the game access to Hidden Power is too strong for Dynamax I think, because it means every Pokemon gets Max Airstream. Imagine a Xurkitree, which sets up Tail Glow and proceeds to Max Flying and Max Electric, gaining Beast Boosts along the way. You can think of any number of absurd comboes in having access to an arbitrary max move of your choice.

Here's just a short list of questions I thought of very quickly, being familiar with the mechanics research scene, unanswered by this thread:
  • How do mechanics which are incomplete or have regressed behavior work? For example, Zoroark's Illusion, if hacked into SwSh, can easily crash the game; if you break Illusion and then Dynamax, both Switch consoles crash. Do you just ban Zorua/Zoroark, revert to Gen 7 behavior, or do you just emulate all the new non-game-crashing mechanics, picking and choosing which ones to use?
  • If a Pokemon switches out due to an Eject Pack stat drop from another effect, will Pursuit immediately move and damage the Pokemon switching out?
  • How does Mirror Move, Snatch, Me First, etc. work with Max Moves? Do they interact like Copycat, reproducing the base move, or do they just fail?
  • If a Pokemon is in the middle of Sky Drop, can it Dynamax?
  • Are Dynamaxed Pokemon immune to Sky Drop?
  • Phantom Force is blocked by Max Guard. Is Shadow Force supposed to do the same?
  • Is Return's maximum base power still 102, or are we assuming Game Freak didn't reduce max happiness value to 160? (as a result making Return at most 64 BP and Frustration always better)
You can generate questions like these forever. Don't be fooled by that thread only having 14 items in its list. All of these questions I laid out, and others like them, can be answered reasonably, in my opinion. There are very few mechanics where you say "well there's just literally no precedent anywhere for this" and have to arbitrarily assign function. Still, it is nevertheless the case that lots of National Dex mechanics are just chosen for the sake of balance or community preference rather than for how they would behave.

The real problem is that all of these cases are just made up - while their underlying principles might be reasonable or not, the point remains that none of these interactions are possible to research and evaluate in SwSh even with hacking. The behavior is simply asserted and assigned by the community. It's like asking "what if you could Mega Evolve in Gen 5"? You could say it'd work the exact same way, but there is no Gen 5 game with Mega Evolution so it's inherently a question that can have no answer, and a format replicating that will be just a fan mod. It's not official, and it doesn't follow how the games would really behave, because the fact of the matter is that there are no Mega Evolutions or Z-moves in Sword and Shield and that isn't going to change.
 
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Is Imprison TR Chandelure viable? I've seen it used successfully in VGC, so I was wondering whether or not it would be an option here. I don't see it ranked on the VR though...
 

xzern

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Is Imprison TR Chandelure viable? I've seen it used successfully in VGC, so I was wondering whether or not it would be an option here. I don't see it ranked on the VR though...
The most successful and heinous use of imprison here so far is limited to jail mew, which uses imprison + transform to make the transformed enemy forced to struggle. imprison's most notable use outside of that is to prevent opponents from using protect. as for chandelure, i dont think trick room is relevant or threatening enough at the moment to warrant that set, i have mostly seen it use scarf. a more traditional stop to trick room setters is use of taunt, which chandelure does also get, along with whimsicott, gothitelle, and a couple more. but of course you are free to try new strategies and see what works for your teams, your idea for a set could be sleeper.
 
I have another question. Do Flying-Types ignore the boost of damage from Electric Terrain? For example, if I gave a Mandibuzz an Electric Seed and also sent out a Pincurchin with Electric Surge, would that mean I'm inviting trouble for Mandibuzz? I'm currently unsure and would appreciate an answer. Thanks in advance.
 
I have another question. Do Flying-Types ignore the boost of damage from Electric Terrain? For example, if I gave a Mandibuzz an Electric Seed and also sent out a Pincurchin with Electric Surge, would that mean I'm inviting trouble for Mandibuzz? I'm currently unsure and would appreciate an answer. Thanks in advance.
In this scenario, if your mandibuzz had an electric type move (say, thunderbolt) its damage would not get boosted by electric terrain. However, you would still get the electric seed defense boost. Flying types/levitate mons dont get the bonus effects of terrains, but do get terrain seed defense boosts
 
I have another question. Do Flying-Types ignore the boost of damage from Electric Terrain? For example, if I gave a Mandibuzz an Electric Seed and also sent out a Pincurchin with Electric Surge, would that mean I'm inviting trouble for Mandibuzz? I'm currently unsure and would appreciate an answer. Thanks in advance.
I know you were just answered, but I think the person above and I interpreted this question in two different ways, so hopefully this is still some help in answering your question!
Generally speaking, the benefits of the terrain are applied to grounded Pokémon only. In cases of boosting damage, the user (the boosted Pokémon) is the one that needs to be grounded; in cases of reducing damage or preventing effects, the target (the protected Pokémon) is the one that needs to be grounded.
For example, that means:

- Non-grounded Pokémon may still be affected by status conditions in Misty Terrain, sleep in Electric Terrain and priority moves in Psychic Terrain. Meanwhile, grounded Pokémon are always protected from these during the appropriate terrain, even if they're used by non-grounded Pokémon.
- An Outrage used in Misty Terrain will have its damage reduced when it targets a Dragapult, but not a Salamence. It doesn't matter which Pokémon uses the move.
- And the one I think you were asking... a Mandibuzz using an Electric move in Electric Terrain will not receive the boost, but an Electric move used on Mandibuzz in Electric Terrain will receive the boost as long as the user is on the ground. You're safe from Rotom, though!

(Seeds, Surge Surfer and Grass Pelt don't care whether the holder is grounded or not; I think those are the only cases.)
But yeah, you might want to watch out for Electric moves if you're using a Mandibuzz in Electric Terrain! They will indeed get the boost as long as the user is on the ground.
 

Checkmater

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I was wondering what Doubles would be like if Protect always had 100% to work, and 8 PP. It seems like it could produce an interesting metagame, with more setup and pivoting and so on. On the other hand speed control moves like Tailwind and Trick room would be significantly worse. What are people's thoughts?

(For those who don't know, Protect has a 1/3 chance to work after using Protect, which multiplies with each successful protect. In gen 5 and prior this is instead 1/2. To illustrate with an illuminating example, this is an extremely important facet of the ADV Doubles metagame because having a higher chance to Protect can let you prevent yourself from being rolled over by Explosion)
 

DaWoblefet

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I was wondering what Doubles would be like if Protect always had 100% to work, and 8 PP. It seems like it could produce an interesting metagame, with more setup and pivoting and so on. On the other hand speed control moves like Tailwind and Trick room would be significantly worse. What are people's thoughts?

(For those who don't know, Protect has a 1/3 chance to work after using Protect, which multiplies with each successful protect. In gen 5 and prior this is instead 1/2. To illustrate with an illuminating example, this is an extremely important facet of the ADV Doubles metagame because having a higher chance to Protect can let you prevent yourself from being rolled over by Explosion)
I think it would be very bad for the metagame. Something like Toxic Spikes + 8 Protects just utterly trolls grounded Pokemon; chip damage stalling would increase drastically. Moreover, it'd just frankly lead to games of "Protect chicken"; oh, my opponent didn't Protect the 6th time in a row and I got caught off guard because of it. You can certainly develop counterplay for Protect stalling, but I don't really see that initial mechanic as fun or competitive. To me, it seems to be a fun part of doubles to bait out your opponent's Protects to give yourself a more reliable offensive target on the following turn; if anything, I think the better metagame is one where successive Protects always fail, not be buffed to allow 8 guaranteed successive uses.
 

MajorBowman

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It also doesn't make TR and Tailwind significantly worse, it just makes them useless. Guaranteed consecutive protects would be pretty silly, games would just turn into who can waste the other player's protects first before anyone started doing any real attacking.
 
If a Pokemon uses Decorates on a target, and another Pokemon uses Burning Jealousy on the same target and turn, will the targeted Pokemon be burned?
 
I know there is a DOU tournament coming up on the 23rd August, but I wondered if there were any draft tournaments of any tier, as I have historicly thrived on undeveloped metas. Just curious, because I saw the last signup on the draft tournament forum thread is almost a year old.
 
I know there is a DOU tournament coming up on the 23rd August, but I wondered if there were any draft tournaments of any tier, as I have historicly thrived on undeveloped metas. Just curious, because I saw the last signup on the draft tournament forum thread is almost a year old.
That one lasted about three weeks until everyone lost interest and games just stopped. I don't think we have the playerbase for such a tour
(This is also very off topic)

tree edit: moved both posts to the appropriate thread
 
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