DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

[Chou Toshio]

Evolutia, I think you're forgetting one thing about Espeon, and that EspyJump is the standard predominantly because Espeon is outclassed in special sweeping by Alakazam/Azelf. If they did not exist, and if the OU environment was potentially hit hard enough by its movepool, it would be OU. After all, it's got almost identical offensive stats to gengar.

The scene I just described though is EXACTLY what espeon in UU would be. Sure it could pull off EspyJump, but why bother when it can simply attack? Psychic/Shadow Ball/Grass Knot/Hidden Power seems plenty deep enough to me, especially with those offensive stats. Come to think of it, its movepool isn't really is not that crappy when you consider that Azelf and Zam also run Psychic/hidden power/grassknot (energy ball) as their primary attacks. >.> Back on the subject of UU, Shadow Ball and Grass Knot are great moves to have for a special sweeper. Grass is a fantastic attacking type, hitting gassy, golem and a bunch of other ground/water types. Even things like Steelix and Aggron are really not going to appreciate getting their fat asses tossed by it. Ghost of course means that grumping and hypno are not going to enjoy trying to repeatedly switch into espy either. >.>

 

[celestial_okami]

I think that Clefable is not as devastating as people think. Its power lies in surprise but it isn't fast. If it comes in and boosts itself with Calm Mind when you switch in your Fighting type (fairly common in UU) it doesn't gain anything because you outspeed it. The moment it uses an attack or boost move its focus is revealed and you know what to do. It gets in one surpise. I'll try to see if I can to see if I find Clefable to be overly strong in my UU games, but I'd really like to hear some people talk about their experiences rather than theorymon-ing on this one. It works to add new members for testing because a case of 'too strong' is easy to spot, but when you are removing them you better have some real backing as 'wasn't too strong' is a lot harder to notice.

 

[Pneuma]

Clefable is like a UU Blissey that can attack. It never fucking dies ever and runs from every predictable fighter switch-in. Use with Drifblim and away you go.
There's my experience using and fighting her in a nutshell.

 

[Akayfortyseven]

Clefable is like a UU Blissey that can attack. It never fucking dies ever and runs from every predictable fighter switch-in. Use with Drifblim and away you go.
There's my experience using and fighting her in a nutshell.

Agreed, and whilst it may be slow and 'predictable', until you find out what set its running, your likely to either loose something, or let it get a wish etc off.

 

[astrohawke]

It's true lol. Clefable never dies.

 

[Buckles]

If Porygon2 isn't UU (which, after much deliberation, I suppose it shouldn't be), then we seriously have to consider moving Clefable up a tier. Imagine P2, taking no damage from status, entry hazards, etc., with CM, almost every usable special attack in the game, the potential to go physical instead. Couple that with Softboiled, Wish, T-Wave and a plethora of other support options that it can use with it's solid defenses. I really think Cleffy should be moved up.

 

[evolutia]

Do you know how strong the eeveelutions are? With the exception of maybe flareon, I seriously think none of them really belong in UU. I've used an eeveelution team against OUs and you'd be surprised at how good it is. You'd also be surprised to know that it's not the OU eevees like jolteon and vaporeon that do the most damage, it's the UU ones. Leafeon SD BP to flareon (possibly agilipass from jolteon too) sweeps many pokemon. This is a very good combo as any incoming fire and bug attacks directed at leafeon is easily absorbed by flareon. Then there's espeon CM BP to glaceon or just sub cm sweep by itself.

I think it is a bit much to generalize the eeveelutions like that. Also in regards to your use of eeveelutions against OU's you'll find that people who play OU will likely have a tougher time dealing with pokemon they're not familiar with. As far as I know nothing has come up regarding Leafeon or Glaceon for their banning...yet.

I'm also sure you realize that some UU/BL pokemon do hold a slight advantage in OU because their common UU counters may not be there; setting them up for a surprising sweep.

Lately, I feel that Dusclops deserves to be mentioned either in UU or BL (preferabbly BL) and I'll explain why.

It's just like Dusknoir except slightly weaker attacks and slower. By having Dusclops slower than Dusknoir, it has a slight advantage under a Trick Room scenario.

Despite if Dusclops's popularity has been nearly overwritten by Dusknoir, wouldn't you guys think it's still a force for BL/UU to deal with?

Well due to the fact that the current UU meta-game is still developing perhaps the discussion of NFE's will have to wait.

Evolutia, I think you're forgetting one thing about Espeon, and that EspyJump is the standard predominantly because Espeon is outclassed in special sweeping by Alakazam/Azelf. If they did not exist, and if the OU environment was potentially hit hard enough by its movepool, it would be OU. After all, it's got almost identical offensive stats to gengar.

I certainly did not forget that detail of Espeon. I know for a fact that is why Espeon's only listed set and the one regarded as the most successful one is EspyJump. If I did not think that I wouldn't have brought up the notion that it's most dangerous set might not be CM Passing?

In OU its not its movepool as much as its inferiority to zam/azelf that holds it back, and it would certainly be over-powering in UU.

Well thank you also for your respectful tone. I just thought I'd bring up the subject of Espeon and see what responses I got. I agree that it's a very powerful force. =/ Oh well Espeon looks like your in Mewdome.

 

[Buckles]

Sorry evolutia, but I think Espeon is just a little too strong for UU. If we brought it down, I shudder to think how many big ol' stall walls would have to follow just to slow it down a little. I would just like toi bring up the idea of moving Clefable up to BL. It is extremely difficult to stop and really takes away from the potential variety of UU teams when you need, on average, one or two pokemon specifically to find it's moveset and shut it down. Just a thought.

 

[kd24]

If Porygon2 isn't UU (which, after much deliberation, I suppose it shouldn't be), then we seriously have to consider moving Clefable up a tier. Imagine P2, taking no damage from status, entry hazards, etc., with CM, almost every usable special attack in the game, the potential to go physical instead. Couple that with Softboiled, Wish, T-Wave and a plethora of other support options that it can use with it's solid defenses. I really think Cleffy should be moved up.

You forget Clefables most dangerous support move "Encore". Seriously she can come in on anything fairly slow in UU and encore them. That forces a switch most likely and allows you to gain control of the match. Sometimes I have seen Hitmonchan paralyzed and Clefable easily comes in while it uses some attack like ice punch and she simply encores him. So instead of being able to counter clefable with that fighting attack hitmonchan has to switch out, while Clefable gets a stat boost or just hurts whatever comes in next.

 

[ODDish]

I would just like toi bring up the idea of moving Clefable up to BL. It is extremely difficult to stop and really takes away from the potential variety of UU teams when you need, on average, one or two pokemon specifically to find it's moveset and shut it down. Just a thought.

You wouldn't really be bringing it up ...

Clefable has remained one of the most disputed pokemon in this thread since it started, its status as UU constantly questionned.

Unfortunately agreement has never been reached about its placement.

 

[Luphrous]

Personally, I feel some people might be a little too worried about Clefable ...I mean yea, it's ability and having access to Wish/Softboiled as well as other support options can make it a pain to kill off, but it's not like it'll sweep you if it's playing a supporter role(Unless you've lost a few hard hitters and can no longer take it down, but that's another scenario). Against Calm Minders, Fighting types shine, but so do strong physical attacks really, and Physical sweepers are more common than Special anyways. The Toxic Orb abuse set isn't that threatening guys... the final slot is between Softboiled and F-Blast, w/o Softboiled it has no recovery at all, and w/o F-Blast Steels wall it(hi Steelix). The Belly Drum set takes a turn to set up, and while it can get that turn when you make a switch because you were predicting another set, this set runs max Attack and Speed, so this set's not really that bulky anymore..It'll also have to spend another turn healing, allowing the switch to a hard hitter to happen. Also this set, like Toxic Orb abuse, has only two Physical moves, Meteor Mash and Return/Facade(again, hi Steelix).
Basically, I'm saying that I can understand that some people find it very strong, but while it is definitely a threat, and a good one at that, I'm just not convinced it's too much for UU. I run a stall team and still manage to take the thing down...

 

[Buckles]

I see your point Luphrous, but again I'm noticing the lack of variety. As of right now, there are ~150 UU pokes, and without Steelix, Clefable kills your team. Steelix was only brought down recently, mostly for Clefable anyway. Maybe I'm overreacting about this, but I do find this thing to be a huge threat and a major bummer to potential UU team builders.

 

[Syberia]

I'm most annoyed by Clefable's Cosmic Power stall set. I had one used against me, and unless you're packing a Drapion with Roar or something like that, it's going to mess you up.

Clefable @Toxic Orb/Leftovers
Flamethrower
Toxic
Wish/Softboiled
Cosmic Power

That thing really never dies.

 

[celestial_okami]

So instead of being able to counter clefable with that fighting attack hitmonchan has to switch out, while Clefable gets a stat boost or just hurts whatever comes in next.

Yes, but isn't that true for any battle, where disabling your counters is important? Not to mention that in a normal situation whatever they switch in after Clefable leaves gets hits too, and Clefable likely gets hit when it comes in. If it isn't trying to be Bulky that hit to Clefable isn't irrelevant. That shouldn't be an issue as you have something called prediction. Assuming Clefable doesn't get hit on any of its switchins, the only difference in this aspect is that Clefable can't be killed by coming into SR eight times. Every other time it has to worry about what its facing when it comes in. If your Fighting-type comes in for free on its softboiled because you threaten a 3KO with whatever you had out (Come-in hit, trade hits, kill'd) or better, then you're back to neutral and you hit whatever it switches to. If it wants to survive more it won't be as offensive, and if its offensive it won't survive as long.

Unless someone tests and decides that Double Edge + Life orb and Calm Mind is viable a la Chain Chomp I don't think we are going to have an issue because it isn't fast enough nor does it have the massive attack it needs to be really threatening.

I've not heard that needing to go in with enough Ice to menace the two Dragons in OU is causing issues or Fighting for Blissey, so might this just be the same way with Fighting moves for Clefable? Not taking some form of Fighting offense in UU would be akin to going in without their counterparts in OU, which is something you can do but you take the risks. We could assume Clefable takes on an Offensive Dragon-Esq role (Salamence can even learn Roost) or a defensive Blissey-natured role. Actually I suppose since Clefable has the offensive capabilities with STAB double edge, its more akin to something like Donphan with a recovery move.

Bleh, rambling done for now.

 

[Syberia]

From my experience, Clefable has been most effective when used as a stall pokemon. The thing just doesn't die, and after a few Cosmic Powers, it can soak up even Fighting-type attacks like a champ. It gets its real power from the fact that you can't take it out with indirect damage such as poison, SR, or spikes, like you can other stall pokemon.

Ironically all of what you have said also applies to Glaceon who is in fact UU and has access to a better STAB attacking type in Ice.

Glaceon does not also have base 110 speed to go along with its massive special attack.

 

[stvn]

to stop Clefable, just use an Encorer. Quagsire, Jumpluff, SHuckle and even another Clefable does an awesome job at that.

Cosmic Power Clefable is outstalled SOOO easily by ANY resttalker... I personally haven't had any problems with Clefable. It is a top UU for shure, but didnt every Tier from every generation had a poke like that too?

 

[Luphrous]

Buckles: Alright, we firstly, I just used Steelix as an example as he's the most common Steel in UU right now, but Clefables that are walled by Steelix are walled by all the Steel types. Sturdy walls with recovery can also stand up to those sets. Also, nah, you probably aren't really overreacting that much, if you've had trouble with Clefable it's only natural that you're more inclined to think of it as over powering. Basically I'm just trying to outline that each set has its counters, sure unpredictability is dangerous, but there are several unpredictable pokes in OU(there are of course some more in UU too), finding out the set is key, and all that takes is one move. Another thing is that Clefable won't really punish you for a mistake as badly as something like, Ttar or Mence.
Syberia: Yea, the Cosmic Power sets are annoying and frustrating, I'll give you that. Sets that use Toxic are walled by RestTalkers, sets that use two attacking moves will also be walled, just depends on the moves. Sets with two attacking moves are probably weaker though, Clefable's going to have trouble sweeping without boosts. Again, the safest counters for Toxic+<insert attack move here> are RestTalkers, and of course if you carry a Roar/WW user not weak to that one attack, you can just get rid of it that way. Perish Song and Encore are actually the best counter, it's just that they aren't the most common moves.


Again, Clefable is a Top UU, one that has unpredictability on its side, but I just don't think it's too much for UU to handle.

 

[ODDish]

So thats an Encorer/Rest Talker for the Cosmic power set, a Fighting type to smack it around, and a Steelix to wall any physical sets.

Well thats half my team sorted, now lets see what I can do about the remaining 149 pokemon with 3 team slots left.

 

[stvn]

you know, an Encorer, STalker etc all have other purposes besides countering Clefabe, helping you cover that remaing 149 pokemon.

just to give an example, It looks like you are saying "OH NO I HAVE TO USE AN FIGHTING ATTACK JUST FOR CLEFABLE ))):" but that's not true because Fighting attacks are arguably the best attacking type besides Ice/Rock so you will be using it to cover other threats too.

 

[ODDish]

you know, an Encorer, STalker etc all have other purposes besides countering Clefabe, helping you cover that remaing 149 pokemon.

Well personally I find Sleep Talking a little too niche and unreliable to serve any real purpose ... particularly in UU where there are many more reliable ways of dealing with status/healing.

Encore remains a situational strategy, useful at times but not necessarily worthy of a dedicated team slot.

It looks like you are saying "OH NO I HAVE TO USE AN FIGHTING ATTACK JUST FOR CLEFABLE ))):" but that's not true because Fighting attacks are arguably the best attacking type besides Ice/Rock so you will be using it to cover other threats too.

Actually I said Fighting type ... but yes I'm afraid I'm not entirely convinced as to Fighting being the "best attacking type".

At the moment Clefable (and at a push Kanga) are the only things that make me think I should be running a fighting attack - I currently don't however have few problems besides Clefable.

Interestingly more and more teams seem to be running a significant number of fighting resists ...

However I feel that I shouldn't have to cover all of those roles in order to "deal" with Clefable, its incredibly restrictive as regards team building.

Not of course that this situation is necessarily limited to Clefable, it seems that an increasing number of my UU teams are being dedicated to a particular subset within the tier, rather than pokemon/strategies I actually want to use.

Perhaps that's one of the reasons why I'm playing less and less UU and exploring other areas of play ...

 

[Khelvaster]

Clefable seems to be warping the metagame--why isn't it out of UU? And why isn't steelix out of UU as well? They are both too strong. Pokemon shouldn't be brought down to UU to counter others; the others should be brought up out of UU.

 

[Pneuma]

to stop Clefable, just use an Encorer.

Unless of course the 'Fable is an encorer herself, and many are. I know mine is.

Clefable seems to be warping the metagame--why isn't it out of UU?

Warping has bad connotation. She doesn't 6-0 like Garchomp does nor is she deadweight like Shedinja in the sand. Somewhere in between. Personally I think she fits fine, a high-tier UU.

 

[Luphrous]

ODDish: I know that you know that a RestTalker, Encorer, and the rest are not just there to counter Clefable...

In my post above yours, I stated I was only using Steelix as an example, all Steel types work, as do sturdy walls not weak to MM/Facade(Not hard, Facade hits nothing SE, and Steel is a poor attacking type). I use Leafeon for physical sets and it does just fine.

Most people carry a strong Fighting attack anyways, it's not just for Clefable, ya'know? Actually, a strong Physical attacks works fine, I use a CB Sharpedo for cleaning up, it still takes a large chunk out of Clefable.

You said you find RestTalking a little too niche and unreliable, and to be honest, I actually don't find them that effective either, but plenty of other people use them, just because you aren't a fan of a set doesn't mean others don't use it. It can definitely be effective too, just look at the popularity of Heatran in OU.

Khelvaster: Warping doesn't really fit, that makes it sound like Clefable regularly sweeps entire teams or something...

Guys, I know unpredictability can make it hard to counter, but we have pokes just like that in OU(Mence, Ttar, etc.) and everyone deals with them. Also, you don't need to act like you need a counter too every set, look at all the Offensive teams that don't carry many specific counters.
Once more, I feel Clefable's a Top UU, but a UU nonetheless.

 

[Kira]

Clefable seems to be warping the metagame--why isn't it out of UU? And why isn't steelix out of UU as well? They are both too strong. Pokemon shouldn't be brought down to UU to counter others; the others should be brought up out of UU.

While I realize Clefable should be BL seeing as my own Clefable set has literally won me matches by itself, I cannot see why Steelix should be BL. It is weak to two of the common attacking types in UU and has no recovery moves.

 

[Luphrous]

Kira: Could we by chance see the set? I believe Clefable is UU because I've never run into a set that was simply too good, but by all means if someone posted a set that really could bump Clefable up to BL, then I would support the move.

And yea, I forgot to address it, but Steelix is definitely UU. For the reasons Kira stated, he's not BL.