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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

Is the BL ladder actually coming to fruition? I found several players yesterday on the Smogon server, and I was able to get about 10 matches in (all with different people...with a couple of new players and possibly a troll o_o;). There was a nice discussion about it in the main chat as well.

I outlined my thoughts on Marowak, Regigigas, and Tauros (I am opposed to Regigigas and Maro, neutral on Tauros). I think it got lost in all the new UU comments.
 
Are people against putting Ambipom in UU? Its BPing capabilities could prove to be annoying, but remember, with all that speed, its recipient would be taking the hit, so just smacking it with strong attacks is a good way to deal with it. We already have Baton Passers (with Lopunny passing Agility, Hypno passing Nasty Plot, etc).

The Choice Bander is strong but nothing exceptional really. Steelix walls everything except Focus Punch, and Rotom/Drifblim wall everything except Shadow Claw.
 
Is anyone against moving Crobat to UU? It's only really good stat is speed(Which is tied with Aerodactyl), while its other stats are average. A really fast hypnosis is definitely good, and so are its good resistances and immunities(4x resistant to fighting), but I don't think it's too overpowering. Nasty Plot could be a problem, but other than that it doesn't have any sweeping potential. It also doesn't have the greatest of coverage on any of its movesets, and he's weak to Rock, Ice, and Electric, very common attacks. Even the writer of Crobat's analysis says that, "it seems likely that Crobat will skate that line between OU and UU." So what do you guys think?
 
I think Crobat would be okay for UU.

It would be a good counter to Aerodactyl, at least starter-wise.

We would definitely see an increase in Sleep Talkers, but I don't find that a bad thing =P

Plus, he is in that group of BL Pokemon that seem condemned, because he isn't used much in OU, and there isn't a real BL ladder.
 
Linkrocks1972 said:
I think Crobat would be okay for UU.

It would be a good counter to Aerodactyl, at least starter-wise.

We would definitely see an increase in Sleep Talkers, but I don't find that a bad thing =P

Plus, he is in that group of BL Pokemon that seem condemned, because he isn't used much in OU, and there isn't a real BL ladder.
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What in the world made you think that Crobat could counter Aerodactyl in any way, shape, or form?
 
ambipom i think would fit just fine into UU. if i may make a comparison, i think it would share just about the same counters as persian, what with their common speed tier, use of fake out, low defenses, and normal typing. at least, i would be dealing with them in a similar manner. besides that, i don't have any real concern about its baton passing capabilities, because as umbarsc said, UU already has some common baton passers and we know how to deal with those as well.

crobat i'm a little on the fence about. yes, it's pretty "mediocre" in everything but speed, but i don't know what having it in UU will do to the viability of fighting types, especially with the new addition of weezing to the tier. again, to make a comparison, crobat would probably share some counters with aerodactyl, its fellow base 130 spe flying type, like choice scarfers attempting to exploit its rock, electric, and ice weaknesses; this is obviously a very skewed comparison, though, because besides weaknesses and speed they share nothing in common regarding their role on a team. i don't think adding crobat to UU would mean anything really overwhelming, but i am a little concerned that it might affect fighting usage too adversely.
 
A Reflect Tangela is able to wall Aero pretty effectively, so I don't think it will be a problem finding a way to stop Aerodactyl.

Weezing alone dies to special attacks, like from Rotom. Once people figure out how to use him better, then he will probably be a threat.

Since I don't have an SR user on my team, I noticed that EVERY SINGLE shedinja has Focus Sash. A better item would possibly be Lum Berry, because people expect it to have Focus Sash, so they try and status it. Just an idea, never tested if that would work.

Venusaur is just, well, UU. It's not like Weezing tough or anything.
 
A Reflect Tangela is able to wall Aero pretty effectively, so I don't think it will be a problem finding a way to stop Aerodactyl.
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Tangela is banned from UU, so that argument is thrown out of the window, not to mention that LO Aero commonly carries Fire Blast, which would murder Tangela anyway.

Aerodactyl is very much counterable, but that was a terrible example.

Venusaur is just, well, UU. It's not like Weezing tough or anything.
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What the hell is that supposed to mean? If you mean defensively then that's not completely true as Venusaur has higher overall defenses. I would say Venusaur is 'tougher' offensively too.
 
I removed Leafeon and Scyther from the under careful observation list as there have no real complaints about either in quite some time.
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Erm have we already forgotten about Zangoose? By the very least, you could insist Zangoose as been rejected or under careful observation. :pirate:

Banished to BL
- Feraligatr, Typhlosion, Crobat, Azumarill, Ursaring, Slowking, Mamoswine, Ambipom, Pinsir
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Nothing personal but is it necessary to mention Mamoswine since it's now OU? I'm assuming it got banished from BL/UU.
 
umbarsc said:
Are people against putting Ambipom in UU? Its BPing capabilities could prove to be annoying, but remember, with all that speed, its recipient would be taking the hit, so just smacking it with strong attacks is a good way to deal with it. We already have Baton Passers (with Lopunny passing Agility, Hypno passing Nasty Plot, etc).

The Choice Bander is strong but nothing exceptional really. Steelix walls everything except Focus Punch, and Rotom/Drifblim wall everything except Shadow Claw.
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In my opinion, it would seem that adding it into UU gives even more incentive to using Steelix on a team. The latter two steels(Aggron and Bastodion) cannot take a Brick Break. There is a reason for why Steelix's usage is so high and I think it may have to do with the pokemon that it's walling. But if people are okay with having Steelix as the only "viable" physical wall (normal/flying) resistance then I guess Ambipom could fit right in.
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Speaking of Tangela, what, if any is the decisive stance on NFEs of OU/BL pokemon in UU?

I ask this because so far all I've seen are arguments on the topic that seem to have lead on to nothing and I feel that it would be better to settle this issue once and for all, rather than considering even more pokemon from BL as candidates for UU at the moment.
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I'm still waiting for an answer regarding the NFE's of BL pokemon. I can understand why people would have a negative look on OU NFE's but being against pokemon who aren't commonly used in a tier for those who cannot compete/aren't commonly used is very very strange to me. One could argue that they aren't "distinct" enough but I don't see people rallying for Flygon and Blaziken's banning because they are generally outclassed by Infernape and Garchomp. Of course you could bring up their unique niches but the NFE's of BL pokemon also have those...
 
Is the reduced viability of a specific playstyle adequate reason to consider a Pokemon overpowered? Because from my experience, all-out offensive teams find it very difficult to counter Aerodactyl. Atm I'm using Intimidate CB Hitmontop, which can't really come in more than once or maybe twice safely.
 
Evil Hamster said:
Is the reduced viability of a specific playstyle adequate reason to consider a Pokemon overpowered? Because from my experience, all-out offensive teams find it very difficult to counter Aerodactyl. Atm I'm using Intimidate CB Hitmontop, which can't really come in more than once or maybe twice safely.
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It certainly is a start to an argument against that said pokemon. However I really haven't seen effective all-out offensive teams unless they were rain or sun ones. The ones that you speak of that, I have faced my Glaceon ripped a hole in them because they had a very hard time defending against it.
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Regarding the Steelix issue are there any pokemon they could thrive enough for consideration into BL if not for it?
 
evolutia said:
It certainly is a start to an argument against that said pokemon. However I really haven't seen effective all-out offensive teams unless they were rain or sun ones. The ones that you speak of that, I have faced my Glaceon ripped a hole in them because they had a very hard time defending against it.
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Regarding the Steelix issue are there any pokemon they could thrive enough for consideration into BL if not for it?
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They are certainly workable; I run an all-out offensive team and I'm a reasonable way up the ladder (~20, not sure exactly where) and I've run into a few other decent ones. I'll admit that offensive teams are few and far between though, and most teams seem to be predominantly balanced or stall based.

I'm not liking the idea of Crobat in UU. Quick sleep + Taunt are pretty broken, screwing over any ReSTalkers that try to absorb it. It would make the numerous Fighters in UU even harder to utilise well than they are now after the introduction of Weezing. Nasty Plot + 130 base speed is scary, and the ability to go either physical or special very viably makes it much more difficult to counter without potentially losing something or giving it a free Nasty Plot. Obviously, it's offenses aren't right up there, but base 90 Attack isn't that bad in UU.

Ambipom seems slightly more reasonable. The double-threat of CB or Baton Pass (with Taunt to screw over Steelix+other phazers) is the only reason I'd really be worried about facing one. All the sets seem relatively counterable, so I wouldn't mind testing it.

EDIT: As for Steelix, Swellow comes to mind. Aerodactyl maybe.
 
Well I can safely say I was right about what was going to happen to UU.

After playing against the umpteenth team of Steelix, Weezing, Clefable, Aerodactyl, Venusaur and filler (usually miltank, swellow or poliwrath) I got fed up and quit. So much for UU.
 
Man a Steelix, Weezing, Clefable, Aerodactyl, Venusaur team is pretty terrible, lol.

I'd like to propose adding some special attackers to UU. Even with the addition of Weezing, I'm still noticing an emphasis on physical attackers. I know all I did to compensate for Weezing was add Substitute to a few of my physical guys, lol.
 
Or instead of adding more things to UU we could admit we made a mistake and get rid of the problem pokemon.




Hell, why not add Alakazam, it has paper defenses. I don't think it'd overcentralize UU. Aerodactyl could kill it with Pursuit, and Alakazam can't switch into anything. /sarcasm
 
You realize that banning should only be done as a last resort, right?

Honestly, all of you have the wrong attitude / philosophy when it comes to tiering.

A ban is much more significant than an "unban."

We really should be unbanning all the BL, and then banning according to experience as opposed to the arbitrary theorymon that was used in the beginning.

Note I say arbitrary theorymon, as that is what theorymon without experience is. I have no issue with experienced theorymon, however.
 
I actually believe Steelix is a lot more dangerous than Weezing, simply because he can Roar physical stat uppers out/

I think it's kinda funny how people instantly want to add more pokemon now. Of course that was bound to happen, to "balance" the new pokemon who were already added. Might as well just save your time and drop the entire BL in, because this chain isn't going to stop.
 
Yes, we should unban all of BL, as that is what should have been done in the first place.

In the beginning of DP we actually had a BL list...do you realize how much of a JOKE that is?

BL is by definition Pokemon too powerful for the UU tier. How did we know that certain Pokemon were too powerful for the tier that had all Pokemon not in the 75% mosed used (OU)?

We didn't. We arbitrarily theorymonned, some faux metagame rose up and now people defend this faux metagame. People actually refer to BL as a faux tier, but the only "joke" is UU, with a ban list that began and was maintained with purely arbitrary beginnings.

Again, to satisfy people like maniac who riding me in regards to this fact, I am NOT lamenting against theorymon for determining tiers. I am lamenting against baseless, inexperienced theorymon.

If we want to use theorymon to ban X Y and Z from UU after all BLs are unbanned and we have general experience with that metagame, I have no issue.
 
Yes, we should unban all of BL, as that is what should have been done in the first place.

In the beginning of DP we actually had a BL list...do you realize how much of a JOKE that is?
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No just no. The new BL has already accepted controversial OU Pokemon like Abomasnow and Porygon Z. Frankly, I can see in the future that OU Pokemon that are used rarely will be dropped to BL. I've heard Breloom is already losing popularity in the July statistics.

The weaker BL like Venusaur, Articuno, Steelix, etc are indeed top tier UU Pokemon. Until now, I finally get Smogon's stragety about tiers and how they move certain Pokemon into tiers. I finally get why S-Deoxys was accepted into OU, why Pinsir is BL, etc.

As far as I'm concerned I'm already predicting that all the pokemon UU will be split into three tiers: UU, RU/FU (Rarely used/Fairly used/Borderline UU... perhaps allow spikes movesets but still banning SR?), NU (banning stealth and maybe the spikes movesets)

That's my observation of how the current tier system is like....having as few OU and BL as possible...

So to some extent, Obi's proposal of testing all BL into UU is good, but too extreme for all BL pokemon to be tested in UU again. It's like saying it was a waste of everyone's time discussing and banishisng some UUs to BL permenantly. I support keeping Crobat BL.
 
skiddle said:
Well I can safely say I was right about what was going to happen to UU.

After playing against the umpteenth team of Steelix, Weezing, Clefable, Aerodactyl, Venusaur and filler (usually miltank, swellow or poliwrath) I got fed up and quit. So much for UU.
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It's only natural that the pokemon who just got dropped down would be popularly used...I'm sorry that you decided to quit before an opinion based on more experience with these pokemon were brought forth.

rkatzam said:
I actually believe Steelix is a lot more dangerous than Weezing, simply because he can Roar physical stat uppers out/

I think it's kinda funny how people instantly want to add more pokemon now. Of course that was bound to happen, to "balance" the new pokemon who were already added. Might as well just save your time and drop the entire BL in, because this chain isn't going to stop.
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I'm sure you remember the argument against that proposal? I have doubts that people on the opposing side are going to change there minds but if you feel that it's worth it to bring up the argument; go ahead.

I just think that idea should be postponed until it's able to be tested on a ladder then later on people can decide what they want the NEW uu to be or just stick with the current one.
 
What do you mean no just no? Instead of making a condescendingly derogatory remark, you should realize the history of DP UU.

BL Pokemon were initially banned not on experience, but on "prediction."

If you cannot admit that this is a complete joke, there is nothing to say to you.

Spare me your patronization, however.
 
Aldaron said:
What do you mean no just no? Instead of making a condescendingly derogatory remark, you should realize the history of DP UU.

BL Pokemon were initially banned not on experience, but on "prediction."

If you cannot admit that this is a complete joke, there is nothing to say to you.

Spare me your patronization, however.
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If you can explain to me how BL pokemon were originally used for "predictitions", other than trial and error, then I may understand your point a little more.

When I said no just no, I'm saying that your idea is dismissing previous efforts of people discussing BL Pokemon based on both prediction and experience. Regardless of the BL's imbalanced metagame, do you not find even one BL Pokemon to hold its recognition as BL instead of OU or UU?
 
At the beginning of competitive DP in the US (I'm not aware of the tiers in the Japanese game), before any testing of UU metagame was done...

We had a BL list.

Yes, we actually banned Pokemon from a tier...without any extensive experiment with it.

Instead of fixing that mistake, with a dependable simulator and great statistics collection abilities, we are running around trying to improve an inherently flawed tier in the first place.

I even proposed (along with Maniaclyrasist) a temporary solution to appease both sides; just run a separate ladder with all BL unbanned, keep the current UU ladder and work from there.

But it seems the community more enjoys bickering about problem than working on a solution.
 
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