DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

[Boingo]

Why did we EVER move Pinsir to BL?

IMO Pinsir still has no real opposition in UU. As far as physical tanks go, Claydol and Leafeon are taken out by X-Scissor, Steelix can take an Earthquake or Close Combat, but can't do much in return with Pinsir resisting its STAB attack. Weezing gets EQ'd with the help of Mold Breaker.

Other Pokémon who could switch into most of Pinsir's attacks and then outspeed and OHKO it, like Scyther or Swellow, can be predicted and taken out with Stone Edge.

 

[Linkrocks1972]

Alright then, if we are all in agreement...

Why is nothing being done?

 

[umbarsc]

Sandslash and Quagsire are workable counters to Pinsir, as is Intimidate Hitmontop (Pinsir will be forced to run Mold Breaker due to Weezing). Pinsir has decent speed, but not great, so it can be revenge-killed rather easily.

Really, if Pinsir is BL, so should Aerodactyl. Pinsir is just as easy to "wall with prediction", but its speed allows it for several Pokemon to revenge-kill it. Its defense is decent but its SpD is anything but. Its HP is also rather low, so it doesn't have an easy time switching in, and Stealth Rocks only further this.

 

[Salem1]

IMO Pinsir still has no real opposition in UU. As far as physical tanks go, Claydol and Leafeon are taken out by X-Scissor, Steelix can take an Earthquake or Close Combat, but can't do much in return with Pinsir resisting its STAB attack. Weezing gets EQ'd with the help of Mold Breaker.

Other Pokémon who could switch into most of Pinsir's attacks and then outspeed and OHKO it, like Scyther or Swellow, can be predicted and taken out with Stone Edge.

That's all assuming you don't simply have something faster. Some Pokes are designed to break walls, so you have to adapt yourself to them. Instead of using slow, heavy walls to defeat Pinsir, you need to use something faster that can OHKO it. You'd use walls for stuff that can't hit you with super-effective damage, and that you take very little damage from, which is obviously not the case with Pinsir. But Pinsir can't really take hits itself, unless you've made it bulky in which case it's going to need support, but will be way more effective at sweeping if it does get the support. Anything with 296 or more Speed that can also OHKO Pinsir, while resisting or being immune to the attack that Pinsir will likely use on your current poke, is a counter. Choice versions are harmless if you can predict right. As long as you have something that resists Rock and then also something immune to EQ which also resists Bug, you've got yourself a nice duo to counter Pinsir. Alternatively you can just try to get in something that can OHKO it as I've already said.

Pinsir is not better than the other sweepers. It just happens to have an ability which means that Weezing etc. are not no-brainers against it, and you'll simply have to use something with 296+ Speed and a super-effective attack (preferably a Special Attack). And let's not get too entangled into theorymon either, every battle varies. I'm just saying that Pinsir is not a flying death reaper with superpowers.

Improve its Defense, Speed, lowers its HP and lower its Attack and you have converted Rampardos into Pinsir. They're basically countered by the same kind of poke; fast revenge killers or if you're decent at prediction, stuff that resist what they're throwing at them while OHKO'ing back. Walls are exactly what these Pokes are supposed to be good against.

 

[RobertM]

Something that bothers me about the Rampardos debate is that one side has him set up and one side doesn't. For CB and Scarf versions you can come in on resisted hits. For SD and RP versions, um, Attack it as it sets up? I'm no UU expert but this seems similar to garchomp, Don't let it set up.

 

[Aldaron]

I agree that if Aerodactyl is dropped, Pinsir should be reconsidered.

Still, this should be a moot point as we should be unbanning them all anyway and building this uu tier right this time.

By right I mean with experience. I don't need objective reasoning to ban or unban something; subjective reasoning is fine for me coming from an experienced individual.

 

[evolutia]

Alright then, if we are all in agreement...

Why is nothing being done?

It could have something to do with the fact that UU isn't top priority right now.

I agree that if Aerodactyl is dropped, Pinsir should be reconsidered.

Still, this should be a moot point as we should be unbanning them all anyway and building this uu tier right this time.

By right I mean with experience. I don't need objective reasoning to ban or unban something; subjective reasoning is fine for me coming from an experienced individual.

Aldaron are you still for this "building this uu tier right" idea on a separate ladder or do you support the take over of this uu tier in order for immediate testing of NFE's and BL's.

 

[gengod]

Sandslash and Quagsire are workable counters to Pinsir, as is Intimidate Hitmontop (Pinsir will be forced to run Mold Breaker due to Weezing). Pinsir has decent speed, but not great, so it can be revenge-killed rather easily.

Both Sandslash and Quagsire are not not good counters as both can be 2hkoed after a Swords Dance while neither can OHKO.

Really, if Pinsir is BL, so should Aerodactyl. Pinsir is just as easy to "wall with prediction", but its speed allows it for several Pokemon to revenge-kill it. Its defense is decent but its SpD is anything but. Its HP is also rather low, so it doesn't have an easy time switching in, and Stealth Rocks only further this.

Aerodactly and Pinsir have nothing in common aside from a Stealth Rock resistance and an occasional move or two. What does Aerodactly in UU have to do with Pinsir being in UU? Also, Pinsir isn't exactly slow and it has better defenses than Aerodactyl while retaining the ability to boost its base 125 Attack through Swords Dance or Bulk Up. When Pinsir was banned initially it was a pretty mutual agreement that it was too strong for the tier due to a number of factors and the Pokemon added to UU don't exactly change that in any way.

Anything with 296 or more Speed that can also OHKO Pinsir, while resisting or being immune to the attack that Pinsir will likely use on your current poke, is a counter. Choice versions are harmless if you can predict right.

I'm not going to bother picking down your whole post again so i'll just comment on a few things that really hurt your argument to bring down Pinsir.

The definition of a counter is a Pokemon that can switch into any move of the Pokemon that it is trying to counter while posing an immediate threat to that same attacking Pokemon. What you suggested is not a counter, and for what its worth there are not a lot of Pokemon in UU that fufill those requirements. Also remember you say the move Pinsir is likely to use, If Pinsir uses another move then you might have just cost yourself a Pokemon. Also, Choice versions of pretty much any Pokemon are worthless if you can always predict their move so that won't really convince anyone.

Improve its Defense, Speed, lowers its HP and lower its Attack and you have converted Rampardos into Pinsir. They're basically countered by the same kind of poke; fast revenge killers or if you're decent at prediction, stuff that resist what they're throwing at them while OHKO'ing back.

Lower Typlosions Special Attack, give it a bit more Attack, raise it's Speed a bit and alter its moves a little then you basically have Rapidash. C'mon you can do this for a bunch of Pokemon, it's not going to change anything. Rampardos and Pinsir aren't countered by the same Pokemon and and don't randomly throw around the term prediction as if every set will be a Choice set. If you review the previous thread for why Pinsir was actually banned it you would see it was mostly because of the Swords Dance variant.

I agree that if Aerodactyl is dropped, Pinsir should be reconsidered.

Still, this should be a moot point as we should be unbanning them all anyway and building this uu tier right this time.

By right I mean with experience. I don't need objective reasoning to ban or unban something; subjective reasoning is fine for me coming from an experienced individual.

As I stated above I don't see what Aerodactly dropping has to do with Pinsir returning or being reconsidered, they are completely different Pokemon.

Also what most people don't seem to understand with regards to dropping all of BL into UU and testing them is that it will be a Smogon wide project and not relegated to only the members of this thread and as it stands UU is very low on the list of things to be considered. And even if it's done it's more likely and probaly a better idea to have it implemented on a secondary ladder as this is a process that will take months to finish and this way we can go about it without actually upsetting the current UU metagame.

The order of things to be done is listed below and as you can see UU really isn't a top priority at the moment. Little changes here and there can be made to the tier but something as big as merging BL and UU will most likely have to wait until the other things in the list below have been sorted out and dealt with.

1. Garchomp (75)
2. Lati@s (116)
3. Evasion Clause (126)
4. Manaphy (127)
5. Species Clause (136)
6. OHKO Clause (150)
7. UU Tiers (158)
8. Mew (159)
9. Arceus (172)
10. Darkrai (176)

 

[Aldaron]

Maniac obviously they are different pokemon, I really don't know what you are trying to preach here.

What I didn't say because I assumed you knew what I was talking about was that if your standards for what the uu metagame can handle are as high as aerodactyl, then Pinsir should definitely be reconsidered.

It wasn't a comment on either Pokemon but a comment on the standards.

 

[Salem1]

Once again Maniac, the reason for why you'll apparently have trouble with Rampardos and Pinsir is because you don't seem to know how to counter them... Of course you're also mistaken, Ninetales can counter them both just as an example. These things have good but not great (Pinsir) and crappy Speed (Rampardos) for a reason, if you just throw a Weezing in front of them then of course you're going to have problems. And no, that's not my point. My point is that you should be able to switch in something with resistances to the attack Pinsir is likely to use on your current Poke, how did you manage to twist this into what he's ''likely to use''? would you use Earthquake on a Dodrio in order to see if he switches to an Aggron? And what will said Dodrio do to you? that's right, it'll OHKO you. All you need is a poke with 296 or more Speed and a super-effective attack, there you have yourself a Pinsir counter for non-choice versions. Basically, as long as you have something weak to EQ/Fighting but resistant to Rock on your team, and then something weak to Rock but immune to EQ and resistant to Fighting and with 296 or more Speed + a super-effective attack, you'll do all right if you play it smart.

And surprise surprise, setting up a Pinsir isn't the easiest thing ever. He'll need an Agility and a Swords Dance, and it should be obvious that it's a BP going on as soon as you see the Agility. You can then use T-Wave/Will-o-Wisp on the BP switch, or use a super-effective attack against Pinsir, so that if it actually BPs it'll get OHKO'ed. It really isn't as hard as you're trying to make it sound...

 

[ODDish]

Also what most people don't seem to understand with regards to dropping all of BL into UU and testing them is that it will be a Smogon wide project and not relegated to only the members of this thread ... Little changes here and there can be made to the tier

I'm beginning to wonder whether any of the changes that have been made should really have gone ahead, given that they were all essentially made on the basis of arguments of the relatively small group of players who participate in this thread.

Whilst the changes have been gradual, one or two pokemon here and there, I wouldn't like to consider any of them "little" given the impact they have had upon the UU metagame, most quite significantly "upsetting" the status quo at each and every stage.

 

[yoshi!]

Aerodactyl is weak to Stealth Rock - Rock does not resist rock, for some abnormal reason.

 

[gengod]

.What I didn't say because I assumed you knew what I was talking about was that if your standards for what the uu metagame can handle are as high as aerodactyl, then Pinsir should definitely be reconsidered.

It wasn't a comment on either Pokemon but a comment on the standards.

Either way it doesn't matter. UU being able to handle Aerodactyl doesn't mean it will be able to handle Pinsir. I could understand if you said something like If UU can handle Heracross then it can handle Scizor or Pinsir since they're pretty similar but either way its still a comparsion of sorts between Aerodactyl and Pinsir, two completely different pokemon. Saying it was a comment based on the standards of UU doesn't make much difference.

Once again Maniac, the reason for why you'll apparently have trouble with Rampardos and Pinsir is because you don't seem to know how to counter them... Of course you're also mistaken, Ninetales can counter them both just as an example.

I can assure you Salem I know how to play Pokemon just fine. I can probaly go as far as to say that you have no idea what you're talking about. What you're saying is the same thing as if someone had said that Weavile or Scarf Glaceon is a Garchomp counter, which obviously isn't the case.

And no, that's not my point. My point is that you should be able to switch in something with resistances to the attack Pinsir is likely to use on your current Poke, how did you manage to twist this into what he's ''likely to use''? would you use Earthquake on a Dodrio in order to see if he switches to an Aggron? And what will said Dodrio do to you? that's right, it'll OHKO you.

I haven't twisted anything, the only difference between what i said and what you've said are the few words

your current Poke

. What I said still applies. And as for your scenario, if a Pinsir comes in on Dodrio then its obviously Scarfed or he knows my Dodrio lacks Flying attacks for stupid reason. The person using Dodrio is most likely going to switch out, the Pinsir user realises this is the most likely scenario and uses EQ or rather, Close Combat to hit the Pokemon coming in which is most likely a Rock/Steel type. I don't find it too hard to see something like that happening.

And surprise surprise, setting up a Pinsir isn't the easiest thing ever. He'll need an Agility and a Swords Dance

Why does it need both? Its obvious we're not going to sweep a whole team with just one Pokemon.

 

[Salem1]

I can assure you Salem I know how to play Pokemon just fine. I can probaly go as far as to say that you have no idea what you're talking about. What you're saying is the same thing as if someone had said that Weavile or Scarf Glaceon is a Garchomp counter, which obviously isn't the case.

You don't seem to know how to counter Pinsir or Rampardos, I didn't say you couldn't play the game. And no, now you're comparing apples to oranges. Garchomp and Pinsir are in no way similar, which I think you know.

I haven't twisted anything, the only difference between what i said and what you've said are the few words

Indeed, and those few words made all the difference. Like you said, if it comes in on Dodrio then it's obviously scarfed, so put a Focus Sash on your own Dodrio and give it Quick Attack, if it doesn't OHKO with Drill Peck then it takes it out with QA. Or use some shady, ''a scarf on that?!'' choice for a counter-scarfer. Arguing over how a battle is going to turn out is rather useless though, I think you can agree with me on that.

Why does it need both? Its obvious we're not going to sweep a whole team with just one Pokemon.

Because otherwise, you're arguing against every sweeper in UU, since you can put a CB/CS or pass an Agility/Swords Dance to them too. And passing is harder than it sounds.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Salem1: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44201

I don't really have an opinion on Pinsir. I played maybe a few UU matches at most back when it was unbanned (though it didn't give me any problems at all in those matches!).

I definitely agree with Aldaron though. The current method is ridiculously horrible. Let's start from scratch and do it right.

 

[Age of Kings]

I will delay a little bit more since I've been having internet problems the last couple of days. >_<

Once again, I will posit the question will this BL ladder be temporary for testing purposes, or permanent?

 

[Salem1]

Salem1: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44201

You might want to point out the faults so I know what I'm supposed to improve? I also noticed two guidelines in that thread which are going to be very fun to use against religious people :P. I'd also recommend Maniac himself to read that thread, so don't point me out as the scapegoat...

 

[gengod]

Once again, I will posit the question will this BL ladder be temporary for testing purposes, or permanent?

We won't know until Smogon has actually reached UU in its list in the Order of Operations Policy Review thread.

You don't seem to know how to counter Pinsir or Rampardos, I didn't say you couldn't play the game. And no, now you're comparing apples to oranges. Garchomp and Pinsir are in no way similar, which I think you know.

I don't seem to know how to counter "Pokemon" are you kidding me... I'm not even going to bother commenting any further on that. As for Garchomp and Pinsir I never compared them directly I compared them in terms of what you are trying to argue and how ridiculous the arguments actually are.

Indeed, and those few words made all the difference.

They make no difference as far as i'm concerned, as I posted what I did while keeping that entire sentence in mind.

Arguing over how a battle is going to turn out is rather useless though, I think you can agree with me on that.

For the most part i'll agree with you.

I'd also recommend Maniac himself to read that thread, so don't point me out as the scapegoat...

Salem1 i'm more than capable of forming a good argument, I'm not going to say they are perfect but in comparison to your arguments they might as well be considered so. It is my suggestion that everytime you go to post an argument or counter-argument that you take a long look at Tangerine's thread before you actually post to see where you are going wrong.

 

[Tangerine]

I'd also recommend Maniac himself to read that thread, so don't point me out as the scapegoat...

You don't seem to know how to counter Pinsir or Rampardos, I didn't say you couldn't play the game.

Can you really tell Maniac out of all people that after this post of yours

Once again Maniac, the reason for why you'll apparently have trouble with Rampardos and Pinsir is because you don't seem to know how to counter them... Of course you're also mistaken, Ninetales can counter them both just as an example

Of course this implies that Ninetales counters Pinsir and Rampardos, who both carry Super Effective hits against Ninetales. Consider the definition of a "counter" which is...

A counter must be able to both switch into the pokémon it's supposed to counter, with little to no risk to itself, and also pose an immediate threat to said pokémon.

Yes, "with prediction" maybe Ninetales can switch in (To like...X Scissor or something but I don't see Ninetales safely coming in on ramparados at all), but considering

1) You are assuming Maniac does not know how to "counter" Pokemon based on a few statements.
2) Your definition of a Counter is wrong
3) CB max attack jolly Pinsir vs Standard 0 def ninetales using XScissor = Damage: 120-142 (2hko with SR)
CS max attack adamant Pinsir vs Standard 0 def ninetales using XScissor = Damage: 89-105 (3hko, meaning that Ninetales loses the second time it switches in because of Scarf)

1) is obviously a logical fallacy since it is clear that you just assumed maniac doesn't know how to play the game by implying that he doesn't know how to counter Pokemon, which is the same thing as you are telling him that you think he has no idea what he is doing.What you SHOULD have done was look over the flaws of your argument, which stems from 2). Ninetales gets to switch in ONCE against Pinsir using X Scissor (hi Stealth Rock) and then will promply get KO'd by Scarf OR the CB variants the second time it shows up. I'm pretty sure you see why Ninetales cannot switch into Pinsir and obviously not ramparados considering everytime it switches in it is racking up SR damage and taking a 30~50% hit.

Yeah, go try to use your prediction to counter pinsir with ninetales, you'll find that you're going to pull it off maybe once.

And no, now you're comparing apples to oranges. Garchomp and Pinsir are in no way similar, which I think you know.

Lastly, this is a giant strawman. You are putting words into his mouth. Enjoy burning it.

 

[Salem1]

I don't seem to know how to counter "Pokemon" are you kidding me... I'm not even going to bother commenting any further on that. As for Garchomp and Pinsir I never compared them directly I compared them in terms of what you are trying to argue and how ridiculous the arguments actually are.

Me neither, since you've misunderstood what I meant. And that's called making an analogy which has no relevance to the other guy's argument and then saying your argument wins out because of something that arbitrarily must be true because you said so.

As for my actual argument, what I'm going to refer to as a ''counter'' in this paragraph is not something that can switch into any of the Poke's attacks (as this is the point of Mold Breaker, that you can't switch into its attacks), but rather something that can outspeed and OHKO it, while relying on your own ability to think like your opponent. When's a good situation to switch in Pinsir? when is not? and then you act accordingly. Or you could revenge kill it, prevent it from switching in because you're hurling strong, neutral attacks and SR all over the place and so on.

This goes way further than having a simple wall to take out something. How is Pinsir going to switch in when a Rotom is there with Reflect, for example? it can outspeed it, Will-o-Wisp it to cripple it and even if it misses, it still has Reflect. This isn't hard to set up at all and prevents Pinsir from being too much of a pain. What I'm trying to say is that soft counters are, in a game like Pokemon, generally preferable. You also have to take into account preventing Pinsir from having much of an effect rather than countering Pinsir. You're essentially trying to ram a cube through a circle when you're arguing that to be moved down into UU, there needs to be an effective wall for Pinsir. Would you switch in your Pinsir when SR is active, Reflect is up and your opponent has a Poke out that will hit Pinsir for decent damage? neither would I. And that's the point you need to strive for with Pinsir and Rampardos. Don't try to wall them, because that's exactly what they're supposed to be good against. Instead make them insignificant and cripple them.

Salem1 i'm more than capable of forming a good argument, I'm not going to say they are perfect but in comparison to your arguments they might as well be considered so. It is my suggestion that everytime you go to post an argument or counter-argument that you take a long look at Tangerine's thread before you actually post to see where you are going wrong.

I'll keep that in mind.

EDIT: Tangerine, I don't have time to respond to your post nor am I interested in arguing over semantics. I'll explain what I meant by a counter when I get home again. You've simply misinterpreted what I meant by a counter, so perhaps I should have said ''preventative action'' or something. I have no time now though, so bye. I'd like to see you face me with your UU teams against one of mine that would include Pinsir though, although you'll probably ignore this part of the post as it has a chance of directly countering what you've said.

 

[gengod]

*Snip* One more post containing a bunch or irrelavent facts *Snip*

It is pretty clear to me that you don't understand what a counter is by the actual definition, what a good counter is even by your definition or how to formulate a decent argument so I'm simply not going to bother responding/arguing your posts from here on.

 

[Tangerine]

I'd like to see you face me with your UU teams against one of mine that would include Pinsir though, although you'll probably ignore this part of the post as it has a chance of directly countering what you've said.

This reminds me of the time when I played in Rangarok Online Private servers, when I was telling someone his arguments was pretty terrible.

What happened was he challenged me to a PvP duel with his level 95 Assassin Cross (I was a level 54 swordie) and when I just laughed, he told me I was a wimp and thus, he was correct.

Note that I'm not arguing for either side, I don't know UU well enough to do that considering I don't even play UU. I only responded to your argument because it was a very silly one that isn't true.

Like I said, know the definition of the word before you try to argue, or it will lead to "misinterpretations" as such. You used the word counter, then everyone will think of Jumpman's definition over yours, perhaps for a good reason. I still don't think Ninetales is a good "preventative action" against Pinsir or Ramparados though.

Anyway you really should know better than beating someone in a UU match doesn't prove anything. Or are you still trying to prove by examples? Maybe you should go read the sticky :)

 

[Salem1]

Oh, I'm so totally surprised you ignored the last part of that post, and you could conveniently fit in that excuse to keep you from having to read it as well. Skillfully done.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Hey you're thinking of a revenge killer. Not a counter. They're different so stop pretending they're the same. And stop pulling ridiculous theorymon out of your ass. "Are you going to switch your Rayquaza into my Cresselia when I have a Reflect, 3 CMs and was passed +2 speed?" This kind of theorymon means absolutely nothing.

Now can we steer the discussion away from useless bickering with someone who clearly has no clue what they're talking about and onto the bigger points (merging BL and UU and whatnot). I don't see a separate ladder happening unless we wait until all the OU/Uber stuff is sorted out. So the options are to start the process now, or just wait until it's UU's turn. I'm personally for waiting. The Tour is underway and there are 2 more weeks of UU. I don't think we should fuck with the tier list as much as is being proposed until that's done with at least.

 

[evolutia]

I would much rather wait until those tasks on the priority list are finished before proceeding with the testing of all NFE's and BL's. It allows for the entirety of the community to focus on creating a balanced UU tier rather than just those in this thread. People have voiced their discontent with how things are now and I wonder what would happen if the BL's were dropped in and they became discontent again. The task should be postponed until everything else of higher priority is finished.