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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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I personally think crobat is alittle powerful for UU, and Magneton isn't strong enough for BL in this gen. I mean he's not trapping anything in UU, besides aggron and probopass, and even then, it's not amazing, since he lacks a recovery move, and calm mind only does so much, that I don't think it's going to sweep a team.

It's actually got a pretty sad movepool.

Crobat... while I admit one-on-one he's not very threatening, but the support he offers for a team is really scary to me. I don't know how I would handle him, especially with the option of a nastyplot build.

I think just for that, he should be BL, because like in TCG card games, specific cards are banned due to broken combos, even if in every other scenario they aren't overpowered. He's got some really nice moves and stats for a UU team, sure, he's walled by steels, but sleeping a pokemon and switching out can scare alot of teams who only have one clear counter.
 
Thunderpup said:
I personally think crobat is alittle powerful for BL
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There is no such thing as too powerful for BL. Well there is, but it would require it going into the uber tier.

The way the tier list is done here is that the only thing that separates OU and BL is usage. The discussion would be whether Crobat is too strong for UU (which I think he is) and nothing else.
 
Sir Spanky said:
There is no such thing as too powerful for BL. Well there is, but it would require it going into the uber tier.

The way the tier list is done here is that the only thing that separates OU and BL is usage. The discussion would be whether Crobat is too strong for UU (which I think he is) and nothing else.
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Sorry, I meant UU.
 
Fishin said:
The only variant that is worth discussing as being overpowered for UU is the special sweeping one, and IMO that one is worth considering for BL
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My only problem with this is that movesets are never banned: Pokemon are. If the moveset makes the Pokemon too powerful for a tier, the Pokemon is too powerful for the tier. (See: Manaphy)
 
My only problem with this is that movesets are never banned: Pokemon are.
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That's obvious. I meant the only reason it would be too overpowered for UU is the special sweeping moveset (well...some others can be used effectively, but that's the main one), as the physical ones are walled really easily (An Adamant, CB Steel Wing does about 16% max to Aggron).
 
wayff13 said:
I think Crobat should be Ou, it can Hypnosis Plot by breeding with Noctowl.
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First off, the discussion is about BL/UU, not about being moved to OU. I personally don't care where Crobat goes, but it definitely does need testing though, because even though Nasty Plot off of 70 base special attack may seem like too much...after all the changes to the tiers and after it's nice and settled, UU may be perfectly sturdy enough to handle that just fine. I personally think physical variants are very tough with that super-fast U-Turn, but not enough to warrant BL status.

Second off, no it can't learn Hypnosis/Nasty Plot by Noctowl because Noctowl cannot get Nasty Plot and therefore cannot pass them to Crobat.
 
Bologo said:
I personally don't care where Crobat goes, but it definitely does need testing though, because even though Nasty Plot off of 70 base special attack may seem like too much...after all the changes to the tiers and after it's nice and settled, UU may be perfectly sturdy enough to handle that just fine. I personally think physical variants are very tough with that super-fast U-Turn, but not enough to warrant BL status.
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Well, most of the special walls in UU are bulky grass pokemon, or psychics.

Crobat possesses a STAB air slash and a nice shadow ball to hit both for super effective, and with the ability to be the fastest UU pokemon, bar electrode and scarf users, he can be a massive threat that keeps leaving and returning.
 
Probopass=BL. Sure it has incredible Defenses and Magnet Rise, but Starmie and Close Combat just say hi to it. Probopass has no reilable form of recover except for Rest.

Azumarill=BL
Pros:
Base 100 HP
436 Attack (from it's Ability)
Has Ice Punch/STAB Aqua Jet/STAB Waterfall
Has Brick Break
Has Defense Curl/Ammsia
Has Belly Drum
Makes great Sub Puncher/Sub Salac/Belly Drum Salac
Great Choice Bander

Cons:
Slow
Base 80 Def/ Sp Def
Ice Punch+Aqua Jet is illegal
Belly Drum+Aqua Jet is illegal
Weakness to the ever common Thunderbolt/Energy Ball
No reliable recovery move aside from Rest
 
I'm not seeing how Starmie is a threat to probo. but it should be UU imo because it has two horrible 4x weakness, 2 of the most common in the game, and generally has a poor movepool. Defenses are pretty good but its just not hard to counter and would get destroyed in standard or BL play
 
i_am_here said:
Probopass=BL. Sure it has incredible Defenses and Magnet Rise, but Starmie and Close Combat just say hi to it. Probopass has no reilable form of recover except for Rest.
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I don't see why Magnet Rise is always cited for a pokemon belonging in OU or BL. Probopass, even if he does get off a Magnet Rise, is still 4x weak to fighting. I'd say its UU at best, and his little brother Bastiodon is NU.
 
I think merely listing pro's and cons simply is not enough. To warrant BL status, you have to overcentralize UU. If you cannot explain that, you simply don't have a case in my opinion. That's just a general pointer.
 
Tsurukawa said:
What should be BL is Azumarril. Pure Power gives it 436 Attack (stat). It has STAB Aqua Jet, Waterfall, 101 Subs, and Focus Punch. It may be slow, but it can use Choice Band effectively, and decent HP lets it take a hit. Too broken in UU since about the only reliable counter is Quagsire.
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Wait, wait wait. Azumarril's movepool is ridiculously shallow. What, it gets Waterfall? maybe Body Slam? Some type coverage...

I don't see why you peole think slapping a choice band on something makes it dangerous. All you have to do is switch to something that resist water, and laugh at it. Or, on the substitute set, switch to a grass poison type and laugh at it. (resists FP and waterfall)

It should still be UU.

I have NEVER EVER been hurt by this poke.
 
Uh huh, what if your Grass/Poison poke dies? Azumarill has 654 attack plus a priority move. Once I remove your Water resist, your team will cry. BTW, what did Jumpluff have last gen that it lost this gen that shoved it down to UU? It has 350 speed, Sleep Powder, Subseed and can annoy stuff to hell and back with Encore, forcing switches, and if it wants, it can be paralysing stuff that comes in.
 
Yeah, Jumpluff's way too good for UU. If it wasn't so fast I might reconsider, but it beats pretty much everything, can put it to sleep, and set up subseed. Plus it isn't hampered by weather.
 
Ok, I just recently made a new team that has Shedinja, and to anyone doubting its BL status, don't. It's really deadly with the addition of Focus Sash now. Ok, sure, you should have a spinner on your team, but chances are, Shedinja's not the only one weak to Stealth Rock on your team, so you'll be helping them too.

With Focus Sash, it essentially gets an extra life, like in most video games. It can come in and force something out very easily in UU by the opponent having nothing to hit it with, and then it can Swords Dance while they're swtiching. Then the new opponent can come in and hit it to knock off the Focus Sash. Ok, Swords Dance again while they do that.

Now it can destroy things with a double swords danced Shadow Sneak. I've ripped apart a lot of teams with this. There's a lot of psychic pokemon in UU that will get destroyed by a ghost priority move. This guy can make things have to carry Toxic or Will-O-Wisp to get rid of him, because once it swords dances up, it can be really hard to kill unless you have your own priority move that can hit Shedinja.

The only big reason it was UU last generation was that it couldn't utilize swords dance very well, and also didn't have Shadow Sneak or Focus Sash. Now it does and it has become really deadly. There's also no Abomasnow in UU, so there's not very many surefire counters for it besides the Rock/Steels. Even then, the only one of them that will actually do anything to Shedinja is Aggron.

Shedinja is also very hard to switch in to unless you're Normal. Even then, you can predict and use X-Scissor if you can predict a Normal type coming in.

Seriously, ghost isn't even resisted by much, so swords danced shadow sneak can really hurt everything in UU.
 
skiddle said:
Wait, wait wait. Azumarril's movepool is ridiculously shallow. What, it gets Waterfall? maybe Body Slam? Some type coverage...

I don't see why you peole think slapping a choice band on something makes it dangerous. All you have to do is switch to something that resist water, and laugh at it. Or, on the substitute set, switch to a grass poison type and laugh at it. (resists FP and waterfall)
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Remember that Water/Normal is unresisted by everything in UU except Shedinja (lol), so Azumarill's lack of movepool doesn't hurt it that much. It has Focus Punch as well, which is actually it's strongest move even after STAB (Belly Drum is an option as well, but since it doesn't work with Aqua Jet it's a pretty mediocore option. Azumarill does have really high HP, so Double-Edge might have some merit, though I haven't figured out exactly what it's legal with). I meant to do some damage calculations with it, but Metalkid's calc doesn't seem to be working right with Huge Power (Adamant, CB Azumarill did about 44.61% - 52.40% to fully defensive Tangela/Meganium with Ice/Focus Punch). If it wasn't giving Huge Power as much of a boost to damage as it should've, then the damage would probably be enough for a guarenteed 2HKO on both. I'd need to do the damage calcs on Quagsire and the like again, too.

Also, your choices of Grass/Poison are a bit limited. Venusaur is BL, so you can go for Vileplume (75 hp, 85 def), Victreebell (80 hp, 65 def), and...uh...Roselia? (50 hp, 45 def). There aren't many good options in the grass-poison department. And they still take neutral damage from return, and are weak to Ice Punch should Azumarill be using it.

It should still be UU.

I have NEVER EVER been hurt by this poke.
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And...are you incredibly experienced in the realm of D/P UU? (which hasn't even been completely defined yet) Or are we talking OU, where it's obviously not overpowered?


Also, can I ask a question regarding tiers? The difference between BL and OU is nothing but usage, this has been stated many times. But where does the data on the OU and BL tiers here at Smogon come from? Is it from Smogon-held tournaments (where play is most definitely going to be competitive), from the RMT forum, from Pokemon simulators like Shoddy...I'm just curious as to where the numbers are coming from.
 
Yes, if your counter to something dies, you can have difficulties.

It's not so much that Jumpluff lost anything as much as that it didn't gain anything, and everything else did.
 
Has anyone ever considered calling Chansey BL? It's really not much worse than Blissey, it's the second best special wall in the game. I would be scared to see that thing in UU.
 
Mr_Goodbar4321 said:
Has anyone ever considered calling Chansey BL? It's really not much worse than Blissey, it's the second best special wall in the game. I would be scared to see that thing in UU.
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It seems to be the general consensus at the moment that NFEs are banned from UU unless they 'serve a completely different purpose'. However this seems strange to me as everybody still seems to keep bringing up Tangela as a decent UU physical wall, and I can't for the life of me understand what different purpose it serves compared to Tangrowth.

If it were up to me, I'd judge every Pokemon completely on their own merits regardless of evolutionary line, but it isn't. As for Chansey, I think even if it were allowed consideration for UU, it would end up BL as it shrugs off the strongest special attacks in UU with even greater ease than Blissey in OU, not to mention the scarcity of Ghosts and 101 HP Substitute Pokemon to absorb Seismic Toss. Seems to powerful a wall in that environment to me.
 
If it were up to me, I'd judge every Pokemon completely on their own merits regardless of evolutionary line, but it isn't. As for Chansey, I think even if it were allowed consideration for UU, it would end up BL as it shrugs off the strongest special attacks in UU with even greater ease than Blissey in OU, not to mention the scarcity of Ghosts and 101 HP Substitute Pokemon to absorb Seismic Toss. Seems to powerful a wall in that environment to me.
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As for 101 Subs...

Walrein, Relecanth, Swalot, Honchcrow (if allowed in UU), Dunsparce, Azumaril (if allowed in UU), Noctowl, Skuntank, Exploud, Muk, Wiscash, Lanturn, Lapras, Driftblim, Wailord.

Just scanning the list here: http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-dp/stat/hp.shtml

Seems like plenty. Azumaril seems particularly dangerous boasting pure power, focus punch, and 101 subs.
 
gmax said:
Uh huh, what if your Grass/Poison poke dies? Azumarill has 654 attack plus a priority move. Once I remove your Water resist, your team will cry. BTW, what did Jumpluff have last gen that it lost this gen that shoved it down to UU? It has 350 speed, Sleep Powder, Subseed and can annoy stuff to hell and back with Encore, forcing switches, and if it wants, it can be paralysing stuff that comes in.
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My team always has SEVERAL water resists. Also, aqua jet has 60 BP. Not much, really.
 
Another point I want to bring up on Mamoswine: Curse + 100 HP Substitute + Avalanche + Earthquake might be a bit too much for UU don't you all think?
 
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