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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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I have one major problem with putting Regigigas and Entei into UU. Is there any actual reason?

Not quite being that powerful as opposed to benefitting UU in a certain way isn't exactly my idea of grounds for a downgrade.

Yes, there is a reason. That reason is simply because UU hasn't been fully developed yet, and we need to see what's broken and what's not. If Regigigas isn't broken in UU, as it seems like from everybody's test reply posts, why should it remain banned? There's no reason for it to be, and we'd obviously want UU to be as versatile as possible since it is the largest tier there. Same goes with Entei.

I'm a little iffy on Entei though, although testing may prove otherwise. It can pressure-stall things quite easily with its great defenses, and it can Calm Mind up in their faces to attempt a sweep. This is easily doable with 100 base speed. I will admit though, that I haven't looked into Entei as much as the other current BLs, so that god-awful movepool may end up demoting it, I'm still not sure though.
 
Wait, he doesn't get Earthquake?

Wow, he really, REALLY sucks then. >_>;. But even so a Sub / Calm Mind / Lava Plume / Hidden Power Ice can still wreak havoc, even for UU.

Still, with just the HP EVs, Quagsire can 2HKO Entei with STAB Earthquake... but if Entei gets one Calm Mind and unleashes one Fire Blast, it would do 35.28% - 41.37%. Lava Plume scores 23.60% - 27.66%.

Flash Fire is the closest thing, that I could think on the top of my head, is possible to actually switch in, and even so, the only ones are Rapidash and Ninetales. So either than absorbing the fire... they can't do much back. Ninetales can Nasty Plot, but if he has Energy Ball and Flamethrower, he's not doing much to an Entei Sub. If he has Dark Pulse, he has a chance though. Rapidash can't even do much else sadly with his limited movepool. The best he could muster is probably something like Return or Double Edge. Not saying Entei can do much back either though to these two.

There's still more. Extrasensory and Shadow Ball could be used in UU since there is no Heatran, so in that case he has a chance to win. He can PHaze decently, use Will-O-Wisp to cripple physical switch-ins... it's odd to say, but he has potential to do a little too much in UU.

I think now that I think about it more myself, it might be too good for UU, but I guess his limited movepool is what hurts him most.
 
Rapidash doesn't get EQ.

I'm opposed to allowing Entei in UU. Regigigas seems like UU-quality, but it only takes a quick glance at Entei's stat distribution and movepool to see that this isn't UU material. Even by OU standards, 115/85/75 is pretty damn bulky, especially with access to support options like Reflect, Will-o-Wisp and Calm Mind. Personally I'd run a variant on the usual Calm Mind set, going for more of a mixed attacker feel.

Entei @ Leftovers
Hasty Nature
116 HP/ 142 SpA/ 252 Spe

- Calm Mind
- Fire Blast/Flamethrower/Lave Plume
- Hidden Power Grass
- Stone Edge

400 HP for general bulkiness and perfect Leftovers recovery, 328 speed to outspeed most the UU metagame and a 251 SpA stat. As shown by Ninetales, Fire and Grass is particularly potent in UU, and is generally only walled by Fire types and Altaria, which is the main reason for Stone Edge's inclusion. Without any EV investment (note: 266 Atk), Stone Edge nails Rapidash for 80.81% - 95.20%, Ninetales takes 72.47% - 85.02% and even a 252/252+ nature Altaria is doomed if Stealth Rocks are down.

After a Calm Mind, standard Blastoise takes 43.09% - 50.83%, whereas his Surf barely scrapes a 3HKO on the volcanic dog.

Of course, you could go standard and use Sub>Stone Edge. You'll struggle with a few Flash Firers, but you'll laugh in Grumpig/Hypno's face even more than usual.

Unless I'm missing something, it seems apparent that Entei would destroy the UU metagame.
 
Lee summed up my feelings on Entei pretty well. It falls into the limbo of "Too strong for UU, but fairly weak in OU".

AKA BL. I don't see why Entei was even dragged up in the first place. It was BL in Advance, and with the addition of Stone Edge in D/P it got a good Physical move to abuse that works in synch with its usual CM set, allowing it to really have a decent shot. It also got WoW, allowing it to use its nice defensive Stats much better.
 
Updated summary ...

Current discussion
Entei

Banished to BL. (bye bye)
- Feraligatr, Typhlosion, Crobat, Azumarill, Ursaring, Slowking, Mamoswine, Ambipom

UU's to be tested.
-Walrein, Glaceon, Pinsir, Cacturne, Lapras, Ninetales, Poliwrath, Hitmonlee
Clefable


BL's moved down to UU.
- Claydol and Cloyster

BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
(now presented in terms of levels of opposition)
-Steelix (Very low)
-Drapion (Low)
-Regigigas (Low)
-Leafeon (Average)
-Torterra (High)
-Entei (Very High)

BL's considered for testing/movedown but lacking support.
-Empoleon, Houndoom, Milktank, Flygon

Widely Acceptable NFE's. (Debatable ones are in the other thread)
-Scyther, Magmar, Electabuzz, Trapinch, Poliwhirl, Clamperl, Vigoroth, Pikachu

Non-obvious Banned NFEs (AKA, BL)
Snover, Hippopatas
 
Entei is an absolute no. Often Arcanine is used in favour of it but it in no way detracts from the fact Entei is extremely powerful and more versatile than people give credit for.

No it doesn't. That's precisely why Rapidash gets walled by Magcargo.
On the other hand it can Sunnybeam the slug. That was until it got reliable physical options...

EDIT: SOddish you might want to knock down Entei a notch....
 
I believe it was suggested that every other NFE was classed as being in the same tier as its fully evolved form ... in which case Numel and Nosepass would be allowed but to be perfectly honest I don't see much advantage to using them over thier evolved forms?
 
^ Since Probopass and Camerupt are UU anyway there's no real reason to ban Numel and Camerupt. Do they have any significant differences from their evolved counterparts other than type?

Anyway I agree with the consensus of Entei staying BL.

Now onto some of the UU's being considered to move up that I;ve been testing the past few days. :

Walrein is bulky, but Ice being a poor defensive type hurts his wallish capabilities. If you can't find something to smack a cursing Walrein around around, your team is not particularly well designed, as that would include a lack of steel,rock,fighting,electric, or grass attacks.

Lapras is more of an issue, as it relies less on its bulkiness and can DD to outspeed stuff, not to mention its a very effective bulky water. I think a moveup is in order.

Glaceon's special attack is massive for UU, but its movepool and speed are rather lackluster. Ice Beam/Shadow Ball/ HP whatever gives decent coverage for a Specs set, but requires prediction to effectively beat any ice resists. Glaceon can be besten pretty easily with prediction though, it can stay where it's at.

Pinsir is a nearly unstoppable force in UU, consider it an unevolved Heracross. Dusknoir,Weezing (who Pinsir kills better than Hera), and Gliscor are gone, the only real OU counters to hera, so unless you are packing a Gligar, or perhaps a Dusclops, things aren't looking good. I think it needs to be moved up.

Cacturne's defensive typing and statistics are laughable, it's fairly slow and relies on the counterable Sucker Punch for priority, SR, proroty moves, or using status before Sucker Punch counters sash varinats, really the only kind oif Cacturne. Shouldn't even be on the list.

Ninetales is good, but the common Hypnoplot variant with Fire/Energy Ball gets walled by Fire types and Altaria rather easily. And some of the most common speical walls in UU deal very well with Ninetales, Hypno has Insomnia, Grumpig Thick Fat, it can stay UU.

Poliwrath is tough. Big defenses, high attack, can hypnosis stuff, and both STABs hit most things in UU for neutral except for things like Altaria, Mantine/Qwilfish, and some grass types. Ice Punch hits the grass types and Altaris supereffective, leaving Poliwrath with virually no safe switch-ins. Not to mention if it gets passed an Agility it can Belly Drum and sweep like crazy. I'd move it up.

With the move down of Claydol, Hitmonlee now has an acceptable counter. While Hitmonlee is a very useful pokemon its defenses and speed stop it from being overwheling, keep it UU.

Clefable is a versatile pokemon, but its statistical defects keep it from being too much of a powerhouse, especially with strong attackers and fighting types running around on most teams. I would keep it where it is.

So thorugh my playtesting I vote to move Lapras, Poliwrath, and Pinsir up.
 
Pinsir is a nearly unstoppable force in UU, consider it an unevolved Heracross. Dusknoir,Weezing (who Pinsir kills better than Hera), and Gliscor are gone, the only real OU counters to hera, so unless you are packing a Gligar, or perhaps a Dusclops, things aren't looking good. I think it needs to be moved up.

If we are going by the NFE's are in the same tier as their parents both Gligar and Dusclops are OU ... I have no objections to losing Pinsir, or Polowrath (but that's sheer indifference.)

Lapras on the other hand I'm still not convinced about, while it can DD I believe it can have a difficult time finding the opportunity to do this ... Add to that there are a number of more recognisable counters prior to DDing, and a weakness to Stealth Rock, it can sometimes struggle.


No you got it the wrong way round its the opposite of what the list stood for. High originally represented high recommendation for moving down with low being low recommendation.

I switched formats as a number of opinions had changed, and personally I found this format easier to work in ... I suppose I can change it back if people really hate it, but in my defence I did note that I had changed it, but for now I'll make it clearer.
 
With the move down of Claydol, Hitmonlee now has an acceptable counter. While Hitmonlee is a very useful pokemon its defenses and speed stop it from being overwheling, keep it UU.

But even Claydol cannot avoid a possible 2HKO if the opponent decides to be Reckless, which is legal with Double-edge as Tyrogue gets it via Emerald Tutor. Of course there are downsides to this, such as sacrificing para-immunity and the huge recoil, but if it allows Hitmonlee to 2HKO the only decent counter it has, people may well be tempted to try it.

This is not an argument for immediately moving it up to BL, but what I am saying is is that perhaps it needs testing for a bit longer, given that Claydol has only just recently moved down and people are still getting used to having to deal with it as a physical wall on a regular basis.

After all, the Reckless/Double-edge combo may turn out like the Double-edge Medicham debate a while back with the consensus being that it isn't worth it to deal with one Pokemon, but only with testing will we know for sure.
 
I am neutral on Pinsir and Poliwrath.

Lapras on the other hand appears to be walled by Quagsire. Immune to Waterfall, Surf, T-Bolt, the best Lapras can do is Ice Beam. A DD Lapras can't do much to Quagsire. Lapras's best bet is Return or Avalanche, but if Quagsire yawns then it ain't good.

Special Lapras is totally countered by Lanturn. And Lanturn isn't a bad bet either for DD Lapras.
 
Yeah, but don't they both fail against Perish Songing Laprases? After all, neither of them can stay in if they're about to die in a couple of turns, and then in that time that they're using to switch, Lapras can get a DD off, and have Waterfall/Return for type coverage.

EDIT: Instead of Perish Song, it can still Roar as well.
 
Neither can Lapras stay in after a few turns, unless you trap them they'll just wait until the last turn, still keeping you walled until you're forced to switch out too.
 
i guess im weird, i have always gone with curse lapras over dd lapras.

and i vote pinsir and poliwrath move up as well based on cynthia's post.
 
I think a temporary unofficial pact was reached that non-unique NFEs were to remain in the same tier as their evolutions in order to stop UU degenerating into OU-lite. With access to NFE's, one could concievably make a team that looks and plays very similar to the standard OU team, which isn't fair on players who play UU with the hope of experiencing a completely different metagame.

Having said that, anybody who played ADV UU knows that Gligar plays very differently to Gliscor, so I guess a case could be made for him...
 
Having said that, anybody who played ADV UU knows that Gligar plays very differently to Gliscor, so I guess a case could be made for him...

Although wouldn't Gligar now be played differently than it was in advance given the changes to its movepool?
 
Possibly. The main upgrade would be Roost and the elemental fangs. The standard Gligar last gen was:

Gligar @ Leftovers/Salac Berry
Hyper Cutter
Jolly
4 HP 252 Atk 252 Speed

Earthquake
HP Flying
Iron Tail/Rock Slide
Swords Dance

Compare this to the standard Gliscor:

Gliscor @ Leftovers
Sand Veil
Impish
252 HP 4 Atk 252 Def

Earthquake
Roost
Ice Fang/Aerial Ace
Stealth Rock/Knock Off

It just seems a bit odd to ban Gligar on the grounds that he is used too similarly to Gliscor.

But then we'd be opening Pandora's Box.

It might be better to make a list of NFE's that are NOT allowed in UU because they'll encourage OU lite/unbalance, rather than listing those that are allowed based on their unique qualities.
 
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