DPP Heatran (Trapper)*

[Philip7086]

So I posted a similar set to this in my Team Mighty Morphin Power Rangers RMT (I used a different spread, since I used it behind screens) and it has been very successful for me. When I told Aldaron about it, he requested that I submit it to C&C, so here it is! Again, trying to keep things concise, so please keep that in mind when editing :)

Status: Completed and uploaded.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/heatran

[SET]
name: HeaTrap
move 1: Magma Storm
move 2: Hidden Power Grass
move 3: Dragon Pulse / Taunt / Earth Power
move 4: Explosion / Taunt
item: Shuca Berry / Wide Lens / Passho Berry
nature: Modest
evs: 128 HP / 212 SpA / 168 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>The purpose of this Heatran is to trap your opponent’s switch-in with Magma Storm and deal with it accordingly. This set is designed to eliminate most of Heatran’s common counters, including Swampert, Blissey, Latias, and Salamence. Magma Storm does not only force opposing Pokemon to stay in, but it deals 6.25% of extra damage at the end of every turn, allowing Heatran to do just enough damage to score KOs that he otherwise would not be able to. Much like other baiting sets, the purpose of HeaTrap is to help clear the way for other Pokemon to sweep later on by eliminating common counters. What separates this set from the pack is that once Heatran lands a Magma Storm, his opponent cannot switch out to scout if it is indeed a bait set or not; the KO is essentially guaranteed.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>With a Modest nature and 212 EVs in Special Attack, Heatran can KO a 4 HP Latias with Dragon Pulse if it switches into Magma Storm and Stealth Rock, whereas Latias cannot OHKO Heatran with even a Timid Choice Specs Surf. Swampert and Blissey cannot survive Hidden Power Grass or Explosion, respectively, after Magma Storm and Stealth Rock damage. The Speed EVs allow Heatran to outpace neutral natured Scizor and those aiming to beat Scizor by one point, such as Magnezone. With Shuca Berry, Heatran also survives an Earthquake from the standard New MixMence with 16 Attack EVs and Life Orb, and KOes back with Dragon Pulse after Stealth Rock or Magma Storm damage. Alternatively, a spread of 128 HP / 164 Def / 216 SpA may be used to guarantee that a max Attack Salamence with Life Orb can never KO you with Earthquake even after Stealth Rock damage. This spread makes for a slower and slightly weaker Heatran, but still guarantees the same KOs previously listed.</p>

<p>If you are not concerned about Salamence, who takes a hefty amount of damage switching into Magma Storm anyway, then you may want to consider Wide Lens over Shuca Berry. The biggest drawback to this set is obviously Magma Storm’s poor accuracy, which can be somewhat alleviated with Wide Lens, giving it an effective accuracy of 77%. Passho Berry is also an effective item choice, as it allows Heatran to withstand blows from Starmie, Suicune, and other Water-type Pokemon, and KO back with Hidden Power Grass or Explosion.</p>

<p>If you pack a powerful Pursuit user on your team, then you may also want to consider Taunt over Explosion. With Taunt and Magma Storm, Heatran can prevent Blissey from healing, switching, or using a status move. You can then switch in your Pursuit user to seal Blissey’s fate without sacrificing Heatran. If eliminating Blissey is your main objective, then running Taunt with Explosion will guarantee a KO on Blissey, who can no longer Protect on your Explosion. Taunt also allows Heatran to beat some of its other counters, such as Vaporeon, who won't be able to heal anymore and takes a hefty hit from Hidden Power Grass. The biggest selling point of Taunt combined with Magma Storm, however, is that it allows you to switch in another sweeper and score a free boost as your Taunted opponent switches out, assuming they can't hurt your sweeper directly. Finally, if you do not pack a solid Heatran counter on your team, Earth Power is a great option for ensuring that enemy Heatrans cannot come in for free. However, if you choose to use Earth Power, it is highly recommended that Shuca Berry be your item of choice, as you do not want to lose to an opposing Heatran's Earth Power.</p>

<p>This Heatran should be used primarily as a support Pokemon; it works very well on teams who have Pokemon that share the same counters as Heatran. Teammates that benefit from this Heatran set include Tyranitar and Salamence, who enjoy the absence of Swampert. Offensive Suicune, Life Orb Latias, offensive Zapdos, and Sub Petaya Empoleon are also excellent team options because they have a much easier time sweeping once Blissey is gone. Finally, Infernape makes a great partner, because it can be very destructive once Latias has been eliminated. You should also consider teammates who can take advantage of Tyranitar, Gyarados and Vaporeon, who are the three most common Heatran counters that this set cannot reliably deal with. Gliscor serves as a great Tyranitar check who also has an easy time switching into Fighting- and Ground-type attacks aimed at Heatran, and Celebi and Vaporeon do an excellent job at covering Gyarados and Vaporeon. It is also recommended that you set Stealth Rock up before getting this Heatran out, as it nets a lot of kills with the extra damage that Stealth Rock provides. If you are looking for a purely offensive Heatran, then other sets might prove more effective. However, when it comes to taking out the threats mentioned, no Pokemon does a better job than HeaTrap.</p>

 

[undisputed]

this is a quality set. i am in highschool, but i hope i make some good edits.

bold=add
red=delete
blue=comments

So I posted a similar set to this in my Team Mighty Morphin Power Rangers RMT (I used a different spread, since I used it behind screens) and it has been very successful for me. When I told Aldaron about it, he requested that I submit it to C&C, so here it is! Again, trying to keep things concise, so please keep that in mind when editing :)

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/heatran

[SET]
name: HeaTrap
move 1: Magma Storm
move 2: Hidden Power Grass
move 3: Dragon Pulse
move 4: Explosion / Taunt
item: Shuca Berry / Wide Lens
ability: Flash Fire
nature: Modest
evs: 252 SpA / 128 Spe / 128 HP

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>The purpose of this Heatran is to trap its opponent’s switch-in with Magma Storm, and deal with it accordingly. This set is designed to even eliminate most of Heatran’s common counters, including Swampert, Blissey, Latias, and Salamence. With Modest and 252 EVs in Special Attack, Heatran can KO a 4 HP Latias after Magma Storm, + Dragon Pulse, after and Stealth Rock damage, whereas Latias cannot even OHKO Heatran with a Timid Choice Specs Surf (I think this helps the flow, although I could be wrong). With Shuca Berry, Heatran also survives an Earthquake from the standard New MixMence, and KOs back with Dragon Pulse. Swampert cannot survive a Hidden Power Grass after Magma Storm, and Blissey is always KOed by Explosion after Stealth Rock and Magma Storm, despite the negative Attack nature. The Speed EVs allow Heatran to outpace neutral natured Tyranitars, in case you need to finish one off with Hidden Power Grass.</p>

<p>If you are not concerned about Salamence, who takes a considerable amount of damage switching into Magma Storm anyways, then you may want to consider Wide Lens over Shuca Berry. The biggest drawback to this set is obviously Magma Storm’s poor accuracy, which can be somewhat alleviated with Wide Lens, giving it an effective accuracy of 77%. If you pack a powerful Pursuit Pokemon on your team, then you may also want to consider Taunt over Explosion. With Taunt and Magma Storm, you can prevent Blissey from healing, switching, and using a status move. You can then switch in your Pursuit Pokemon to seal Blissey’s fate, without sacrificing Heatran. Taunt also allows you to beat even more of Heatran’s counters, such as Vaporeon, who cannot heal, and takes a hefty hit from Hidden Power Grass. The biggest selling point for Taunt combined with Magma Storm, however, is its ability to allow you to set up a sweeper safely, by preventing your opponent from phasing it or hitting it with a status move.</p>

<p>It should be mentioned that This Heatran should be used primarily as a support Pokemon, and it works very well on teams who have Pokemon that share the same counters as Heatran does. These include Pokemon like Tyranitar, Salamence, Infernape, and offensive Suicune, among others. Once Heatran baits and KOs its common counters, its teammates will have a much easier time sweeping later in the match. If you are looking for a purely offensive Heatran, then other sets might prove more effective. However, when it comes to taking out the threats mentioned, no Pokemon does a better job than HeaTrap.</p>

 

[SJCrew]

This sounds like a great idea. I look forward to testing it and discussing the results tomorrow.

 

[jc104]

[SET]
name: HeaTrap
move 1: Magma Storm
move 2: Hidden Power Grass
move 3: Dragon Pulse
move 4: Explosion / Taunt
item: Shuca Berry / Wide Lens
ability: Flash Fire
nature: Modest
evs: 252 SpA / 128 Spe / 128 HP

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>The purpose of this Heatran is to trap your opponent’s switch-in with Magma Storm, (remove comma) and deal with it accordingly. This set is designed even to eliminate (split infinitive) most of Heatran’s common counters, including Swampert, Blissey, Latias, and Salamence. With Modest and 252 EVs in Special Attack, Heatran can KO a 4 HP Latias after Magma Storm + Dragon Pulse after Stealth Rock damage, whereas Latias cannot even OHKO Heatran with a Timid Choice Specs Surf. With Shuca Berry, Heatran also survives an Earthquake from the standard New MixMence, (remove comma) and KOs back with Dragon Pulse. Swampert cannot survive a Hidden Power Grass after Magma Storm, (remove comma) and Blissey is always KOed by Explosion after Stealth Rock and Magma Storm, despite the negative Attack nature. The Speed EVs allow Heatran to outpace neutral natured Tyranitar, in case you need to finish one off with Hidden Power Grass.</p>

<p>If you are not concerned about Salamence, who takes a considerable amount of damage switching into Magma Storm anyway, then you may want to consider Wide Lens over Shuca Berry. The biggest drawback to this set is obviously Magma Storm’s poor accuracy, which can be somewhat alleviated with Wide Lens, giving it an effective accuracy of 77%. If you pack a powerful Pursuit Pokemon on your team, then you may also want to consider Taunt over Explosion. With Taunt and Magma Storm, you can prevent Blissey from healing, switching, or using a status move. You can then switch in your Pursuit Pokemon to seal Blissey’s fate, without sacrificing Heatran. Taunt also allows you to beat some of Heatran’s other counters, such as Vaporeon, who cannot heal and takes a hefty hit from Hidden Power Grass. The biggest selling point of Taunt combined with Magma Storm, however, is that it allows you to set up a sweeper safely, by preventing your opponent from phasing it or hitting it with a status move.</p>

<p>(It should be mentioned that) this Heatran should be used primarily as a support Pokemon. It works very well on teams who have Pokemon that share the same counters as Heatran. These include (Pokemon like) Tyranitar, Salamence, Infernape, and offensive Suicune, among others. Once Heatran baits and KOs the common counters, these teammates will have a much easier time sweeping (later in the match.) If you are looking for a purely offensive Heatran, then other sets might prove more effective. However, when it comes to taking out the threats mentioned, no Pokemon does a better job than HeaTrap.</p>

Great set. Changes are in bold, obviously. Some superfluous stuff I suggest you remove has been put in brackets. I would've called it TrapTran myself, but hey, I didn't invent the set!

 

[Fuzznip]

Just a nitpick, but your EV section should be this: evs: 128 HP / 252 SpA / 128 Spe (HP should be first).

I'll post some more comments later if I have any!

 

[Senzairu]

Having used this set before after seeing your RMT (which was awesome btw). There are two things that make me question this set's effectiveness.

1. Magma Storm's accuracy. 70% accuracy is not a lot to go on, especially when you consider the fact that Magma Storm is the crux of this set. One miss could potentially make this Heatran useless (since the surprise factor will be gone now that this set is more well known).

2. The Pokemon this set aims to take down. Swampert, Blissey, Latias, and Salamence.

Swampert - Probably the only one of the four that will reliably go down since Heatran outspeeds him.

Blissey - First of all, Heatran can't really be called a Blissey "counter" since it has to sacrifice itself just to KO the pink nurse. Plus, you may not be able to trap Blissey because of Magma Storm's accuracy and the fact that it has Protect to save itself from Explosion.

Latias - With her high special defense and access to Calm Mind and Surf, Heatran will either become potential set up bait for Latias, or lose a LOT of it's HP in trying to take down Latias.

Salamence - Similar to Latias but Heatran will have a slightly easier time with it. However, since Salamence outspeeds and can hit Heatran with a 4 times SE Earthquake, even with Shuca, Heatran will still take a lot of damage just to take down one Pokemon (which still isn't a guarantee thanks for Magma Storm's shaky accuracy.)

I admire the sets attempt at originality and its use of Magma Storm, but there is a reason why the move hasn't been used before. The point I'm trying to make is that this set is still incomplete somehow. It may be better as a lead with it's ability to take down things like Metagross, Azelf, and Swampert. But the fact that Heatran has to sacrifice most of its HP to KO the opposing Pokemon in question and Magma Storm's 70% accuracy make this set very unreliable and not as effective as others.

 

[Philip7086]

Having used this set before after seeing your RMT (which was awesome btw). There are two things that make me question this set's effectiveness.

1. Magma Storm's accuracy. 70% accuracy is not a lot to go on, especially when you consider the fact that Magma Storm is the crux of this set. One miss could potentially make this Heatran useless (since the surprise factor will be gone now that this set is more well known).

2. The Pokemon this set aims to take down. Swampert, Blissey, Latias, and Salamence.

Swampert - Probably the only one of the four that will reliably go down since Heatran outspeeds him.

Blissey - First of all, Heatran can't really be called a Blissey "counter" since it has to sacrifice itself just to KO the pink nurse. Plus, you may not be able to trap Blissey because of Magma Storm's accuracy and the fact that it has Protect to save itself from Explosion.

Latias - With her high special defense and access to Calm Mind and Surf, Heatran will either become potential set up bait for Latias, or lose a LOT of it's HP in trying to take down Latias.

Salamence - Similar to Latias but Heatran will have a slightly easier time with it. However, since Salamence outspeeds and can hit Heatran with a 4 times SE Earthquake, even with Shuca, Heatran will still take a lot of damage just to take down one Pokemon (which still isn't a guarantee thanks for Magma Storm's shaky accuracy.)

I admire the sets attempt at originality and its use of Magma Storm, but there is a reason why the move hasn't been used before. The point I'm trying to make is that this set is still incomplete somehow. It may be better as a lead with it's ability to take down things like Metagross, Azelf, and Swampert. But the fact that Heatran has to sacrifice most of its HP to KO the opposing Pokemon in question and Magma Storm's 70% accuracy make this set very unreliable and not as effective as others.

Please read the analysis before posting.

Thanks for the edits. I have fixed the OP.

 

[Snorlaxe]

Hide

<p>The purpose of this Heatran set is to trap your opponent’s switch-in with Magma Storm and deal with it accordingly. This set is designed to even eliminate most of Heatran’s common counters, including Swampert, Blissey, Latias, and Salamence. With Modest nature and 252 EVs in Special Attack, Heatran can KO a 4 HP Latias after Magma Storm, Dragon Pulse, and Stealth Rock damage, whereas Latias cannot even OHKO Heatran with a Timid Choice Specs Surf. With Shuca Berry, Heatran also survives an Earthquake from the standard New MixMence and KOes back with Dragon Pulse. Swampert cannot survive a Hidden Power Grass after Magma Storm, and Blissey is always KOed by Explosion after Stealth Rock and Magma Storm, despite the Attack-lowering nature. The Speed EVs allow Heatran to outpace neutral natured Tyranitar, in case you need Heatran to finish one off with Hidden Power Grass.</p>

<p>If you are not concerned about Salamence, who takes a considerable amount of damage switching into Magma Storm anyway, then you may want to consider Wide Lens over Shuca Berry. The biggest drawback to this set is obviously Magma Storm’s poor accuracy, which can be somewhat alleviated with Wide Lens, giving it an effective accuracy of 77%. If you pack a powerful Pursuit user on your team, then you may also want to consider Taunt over Explosion. With Taunt and Magma Storm, Heatran can prevent Blissey from healing, switching, or using a status move. You can then switch in your Pursuit user to seal Blissey’s fate, without sacrificing Heatran. Taunt also allows Heatran to beat some of its other counters, such as Vaporeon, who cannot heal and takes a hefty hit from Hidden Power Grass. The biggest selling point of Taunt combined with Magma Storm, however, is that it allows you to set up a sweeper safely, by preventing your opponent from phazing it or hitting it with a status move.</p>

<p>This Heatran should be used primarily as a support Pokemon; it works very well on teams who have Pokemon that share the same counters as Heatran. These include Tyranitar, Salamence, Infernape, and offensive Suicune, among others. Once Heatran baits and KOs its common counters, these teammates will have a much easier time sweeping. If you are looking for a purely offensive Heatran, then other sets might prove more effective. However, when it comes to taking out the threats mentioned, no Pokemon does a better job than HeaTrap.</p>

Changes in black, removals in red!

Nice job Phillip :]

 

[Senzairu]

Please read the analysis before posting.

Um... I did. I'm aware that you mentioned Magma Storm's accuracy but that still doesn't change anything I said, especially about the Pokemon it is meant to KO. Do you have any logs with this set? I'm sure it was more effective before it was revealed but I feel like this is one of those sets that will lose a lot of its effectiveness now that the surprise factor is gone.

For example, now that this set is publicized (which eventually happens to all movesets) if I switched in my Swampert into your Heatran and Magma Storm were to miss, I would get Swampert out of there since I know this set.

I think you should make a variant of this set so it would be more effective. Magma Storm would probably be more effective on a Lead Heatran set with it's ability to get rid of Focus Sash Azelf and Roserade. Plus HP Grass can still hit Swampert and Hippowdon for Super Effective damage. Shuca Berry, Lum Berry, and possibly Wide Lens would be the options in that case.

 

[Philip7086]

Um... I did. I'm aware that you mentioned Magma Storm's accuracy but that still doesn't change anything I said, especially about the Pokemon it is meant to KO. Do you have any logs with this set? I'm sure it was more effective before it was revealed but I feel like this is one of those sets that will lose a lot of its effectiveness now that the surprise factor is gone.

For example, now that this set is publicized (which eventually happens to all movesets) if I switched in my Swampert into your Heatran and Magma Storm were to miss, I would get Swampert out of there since I know this set.

I think you should make a variant of this set so it would be more effective. Magma Storm would probably be more effective on a Lead Heatran set with it's ability to get rid of Focus Sash Azelf and Roserade. Plus HP Grass can still hit Swampert and Hippowdon for Super Effective damage. Shuca Berry, Lum Berry, and possibly Wide Lens would be the options in that case.

I think you missed the part about what type of role this Heatran is meant to play on teams, then. Also, I addressed Magma Storm's accuracy issue and added Wide Lens as an option over it. There are currently other sets on site which utilize 70% acc moves and even lower (Hypnosis). With Wide Lens, you will have more accuracy than moves like WoW and Sleep Powder, which are both used quite frequently, so I don't understand your issue here. Finally, if you do not want to use Explosion on Blissey, there is another very viable method used here that can eliminate Blissey and save your own Heatran.

Edit: Also, good players don't leave Swampert in on Heatran anyways, just because it attacked them with Fire Blast on the switch. They always scout for HP Grass on a bait set, which is exactly WHY this set is so useful. 77% of the time, you will force your opponent to not be able to even scout your moves. They are stuck. The point is to not care about the surprise factor, because they can't do anything about it once they're trapped. Again, the accuracy is obviously the downside to the set (as I've mentioned in the analysis itself), but it's risk versus reward, and IMO, the reward far outweighs the risks on certain teams.

Update: I added Taunt + Explosion as an option, for those who are primarily looking to KO Blissey. I also expanded on the teammate options.

 

[Fuzznip]

[SET]
name: HeaTrap
move 1: Magma Storm
move 2: Hidden Power Grass
move 3: Dragon Pulse / Explosion
move 4: Explosion / Taunt
item: Shuca Berry / Wide Lens
nature: Modest
evs: 128 HP / 252 SpA / 128 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>The purpose of this Heatran is to trap your opponent’s switch-in with Magma Storm and deal with it accordingly. This set is designed to even eliminate most of Heatran’s common counters, including Swampert, Blissey, Latias, and Salamence. With a Modest nature and 252 EVs in Special Attack, Heatran can KO a 4 HP Latias after switching into Magma Storm and Stealth Rock with Dragon Pulse, whereas Latias cannot even OHKO Heatran with a Timid Choice Specs Surf. With Shuca Berry, Heatran also survives an Earthquake from the standard New MixMence and KOes back with Dragon Pulse. Swampert cannot survive Hidden Power Grass after Magma Storm, and Blissey is always KOed by Explosion after Stealth Rock and Magma Storm, despite the Attack-lowering nature. The Speed EVs allow Heatran to outpace neutral natured Tyranitar, in case you need Heatran to finish one off with Hidden Power Grass.</p>

<p>If you are not concerned about Salamence, who takes a considerable amount of damage switching into Magma Storm anyway, then you may want to consider Wide Lens over Shuca Berry. The biggest drawback to this set is obviously Magma Storm’s poor accuracy, which can be somewhat alleviated with Wide Lens, giving it an effective accuracy of 77%. If you pack a powerful Pursuit user on your team, then you may also want to consider Taunt over Explosion. With Taunt and Magma Storm, Heatran can prevent Blissey from healing, switching, or using a status move. You can then switch in your Pursuit user to seal Blissey’s fate without sacrificing Heatran. If eliminating Blissey is your main objective, then running Taunt and Explosion will guarantee a KO on Blissey, who can no longer Protect on your Explosion. Taunt also allows Heatran to beat some of its other counters, such as Vaporeon, who won't be able to heal anymore and takes a hefty hit from Hidden Power Grass. The biggest selling point of Taunt combined with Magma Storm, however, is that it allows you to set up a sweeper safely, by preventing your opponent from phazing it or hitting it with a status move. (This sentence makes it seem as if Magma Storm keeps the opponent locked in even if you switch out Heatran, which is not true. Perhaps you should reword it?)</p>

<p>This Heatran should be used primarily as a support Pokemon; it works very well on teams who have Pokemon that share the same counters as Heatran. Teammates that benefit from this Heatran set include Tyranitar and Salamence, who enjoy the absence of Swampert. Offensive Suicune, Life Orb Latias, offensive Zapdos, and Sub Petaya Empoleon are also excellent team options because they have a much easier time sweeping once Blissey is gone. Finally, Infernape makes a great partner, because it can be very destructive once Latias has been eliminated. You should also consider teammates who can take advantage of Tyranitar, Gyarados and Vaporeon, who are the three most common Heatran counters that this set cannot reliably deal with. Gliscor serves as a great Tyranitar check who also has an easy time switching into Fighting- and Ground-type attacks aimed at Heatran, and Celebi and Vaporeon do an excellent job at covering Gyarados and Vaporeon. If you are looking for a purely offensive Heatran, then its other sets might prove more effective. However, when it comes to taking out the threats mentioned, no Pokemon does a better job than HeaTrap.</p>

Nice work Phil, I like the idea of this set. My only concern is the actual name of this set. HeaTrap looks a bit weird to me, perhaps change it to Traptran or something? That's just my opinion though, it's up to you.

 

[eastamazonantidote]

Nice work Phil, I like the idea of this set. My only concern is the actual name of this set. HeaTrap looks a bit weird to me, perhaps change it to Traptran or something? That's just my opinion though, it's up to you.

This set is really quite good, and I love how you noted the issues with accuracy, which is so often overlooked. I think just "Magma Storm" is good enough, as that is the point of the set. Trying to make a fancy name will get you nowhere, though TrapTran is fine.

 

[Philip7086]

Thanks Fuzznip, I made the changes. I also fixed the sentence that you thought was misleading, so please check it out and let me know if that makes more sense.

As for the name, I held a vote on #stark to see which one people liked better between Trap Tran, and Heatrap, and HeaTrap won. If enough people oppose this set name, I am not against changing it, though.

 

[Fuzznip]

The biggest selling point of Taunt combined with Magma Storm, however, is that it allows you to set up the first boost on another sweeper safely by preventing your opponent from phazing it or hitting it with a status move, and forcing them to stay in while you switch Heatran out.

I looked at the rewrite of the misleading sentence, but it could be reworded and shortened to make more sense. I tried to rewrite it myself and came up with this:

The biggest selling point of Taunt combined with Magma Storm, however, is that it allows you to switch in your sweeper and score a free boost as your Taunted opponent switches out, assuming they can't hurt your sweeper directly.

It might be worth it to add an example, maybe with Swampert and Gyarados? Can't think of anything better right now, sorry.

 

[Phantom_IV]

Instead of saying New MixMence, perhaps say "16 Atk LO Salamence" or "special offensive Salamence." This serves the dual purpose of saving someone an edit later on should MixMence's spread change and emphasizing that you cannot survive EQ from a Salamence with significant Atk investment.

Also, did that calculation assume SR damage?

Personally, I would be hesitant to try a Dragon Pulse on a Salamence switch-in, as most Salamence have a good chance to OHKO. The point was probably moot during your use of this set, as you were behind Reflect.

 

[Philip7086]

Thanks Fuzznip, I fixed that.

Instead of saying New MixMence, perhaps say "16 Atk LO Salamence" or "special offensive Salamence." This serves the dual purpose of saving someone an edit later on should MixMence's spread change and emphasizing that you cannot survive EQ from a Salamence with significant Atk investment.

Also, did that calculation assume SR damage?

Personally, I would be hesitant to try a Dragon Pulse on a Salamence switch-in, as most Salamence have a good chance to OHKO. The point was probably moot during your use of this set, as you were behind Reflect.

The calculation assumed that Salamence has taken 2.4% damage beforehand, but I added either Stealth Rock or Magma Storm damage just to put it on the safe side. Also, Salamence with a positive nature and max Attack and Life Orb isn't even guaranteed to kill this Heatran after Stealth Rocks, so it's usually a decently safe bet to keep Heatran in. In fact, Salamence needs a Life Orb and max attack to even have a shot at OHKOing this Heatran with Earthquake. This means that Heatran will beat all non-Life Orb Mences all of the time, +Speed natured max Attack Life Orb Salamences most of the time, and +Attack natured max Attack Life Orb Salamences some of the time.

 

[joshe]

This is just a tiny tiny nitpick but you can't you just slash Taunt with Dragon Pulse? It'll get rid of the superfluous Explosion currently slashed with Dragon Pulse and you can just add another sentence if you want explaining Taunt with Explosion and how they should be used together to prevent Bliss from Protecting, Wishing or whatever. It looks better with one Explosion slashed in my opinion.

Oh and there should be a space separating the 3rd to last sentence and the 4th to last sentence in the last paragraph.

 

[Phantom_IV]

Thanks Fuzznip, I fixed that.



The calculation assumed that Salamence has taken 2.4% damage beforehand, but I added either Stealth Rock or Magma Storm damage just to put it on the safe side. Also, Salamence with a positive nature and max Attack and Life Orb isn't even guaranteed to kill this Heatran after Stealth Rocks, so it's usually a decently safe bet to keep Heatran in. In fact, Salamence needs a Life Orb and max attack to even have a shot at OHKOing this Heatran with Earthquake. This means that Heatran will beat all non-Life Orb Mences all of the time, +Speed natured max Attack Life Orb Salamences most of the time, and +Attack natured max Attack Life Orb Salamences some of the time.

Point taken, however I might argue for a slightly different spread to reduce the chance that Sala OHKOs. From the usage statistics, 60% of Sala run LO, about a third of Salamence run an attack boosting nature, and 1/2 run over 200 attack EVs.

I'd say it's a safe assumption that a large portion of the Sala running attack boosting natures are also running LO and nearly max attack. With 252, + natured, and LO, it's a 91% chance to OHKO. With 232, + natured, and LO, it's an 84% chance to OHKO. Even with 232 neutral natured and LO, it's a 27% chance to OHKO.

It's not an exact science, but I'd say you're running maybe a 1/3 chance of being OHKO'ed by your random Salamence switch-in. Not a terribly high chance, but I'm not sure if I'd risk that chance of being OHKO'ed, given that this Heatran is designed to beat that Sala.

If you put those HP EVs into defense, 232+ has a 70% chance to OHKO and 232 neutral has a 12% chance to OHKO.

Not sure what recommendation I'd make on spread, but that's the data.

 

[Philip7086]

Point taken, however I might argue for a slightly different spread to reduce the chance that Sala OHKOs. From the usage statistics, 60% of Sala run LO, about a third of Salamence run an attack boosting nature, and 1/2 run over 200 attack EVs.

I'd say it's a safe assumption that a large portion of the Sala running attack boosting natures are also running LO and nearly max attack. With 252, + natured, and LO, it's a 91% chance to OHKO. With 232, + natured, and LO, it's an 84% chance to OHKO. Even with 232 neutral natured and LO, it's a 27% chance to OHKO.

It's not an exact science, but I'd say you're running maybe a 1/3 chance of being OHKO'ed by your random Salamence switch-in. Not a terribly high chance, but I'm not sure if I'd risk that chance of being OHKO'ed, given that this Heatran is designed to beat that Sala.

If you put those HP EVs into defense, 232+ has a 70% chance to OHKO and 232 neutral has a 12% chance to OHKO.

Not sure what recommendation I'd make on spread, but that's the data.

You're forgetting that most LO Mences are Mix Mences, at least in my experience. But anyways, moving the HP EVs into Defense means you now look at getting OHKOed by Specs Surf from Latias (which is what I tailored the set to survive). But because you are pushing this, I went ahead and created an alternate spread. I would like everybody to weigh in on this new spread, and let me know what they think.

128 HP / 164 Def / 216 SpA

This will always survive a 252 +Atk LO EQ from Salamence, and still has enough power to KO Latias and Blissey with Magma Storm + Dragon Pulse / Explosion after SR. You end up with no speed, but that's the necessary sacrifice if you want to guarantee that Salamence cannot kill you (after SR). If enough people think this spread is better than the first, I will replace it. Also, if you think this should be an alternate spread, please say so. Thanks.

 

[TAY]

Bro is there some reason you don't mention Passho berry? Shuca is pretty cool but a lot of times Heatran will be OHKO'd anyway (especially against STAB or CB users). You're not running Earth Power, so the utility against opposing Heatran is lost. You know I used this set and bro let me tell you Starmie and Suicune switched in all the damn time. It's not like every Gyarados carries EQ, either (and often players will use Waterfall against Heatran anyway as a "safe prediction"). I am well aware that none of these moves will OHKO Heatran regardless, but this allows Heatran to switch into damage and still be useful. A 65% or whatever Heatran is not taking Earthquake from Salamence or Gyarados whether it holds Shuca Berry or not; however, that same Heatran will still survive Hydro Pump or Waterfall.

Additionally, I do not think Wide Lens should be an item option. A 7% boost in the accuracy of only one of your moves is hardly worth your item slot; type resist berries or Lefties or Life Orb (which incidentally allows you to run a Timid nature to outrun Gyarados and Heatran) are far superior.

I've told you before that I think Fire Blast is really just as good as Magma Storm here (even Protect Swampert will probably assume you're Choice Scarf), but that would seem to go against the spirit of the set.

So to sum up:

1. Add Passho Berry
2. Drop Wide Lens
3. Mention Life Orb and Timid somewhere
4. Use "Bro" and "Chill" more (in fact regarding the name it should probably be changed to ChillBroTran)

 

[Philip7086]

Bro is there some reason you don't mention Passho berry? Shuca is pretty cool but a lot of times Heatran will be OHKO'd anyway (especially against STAB or CB users). You're not running Earth Power, so the utility against opposing Heatran is lost. You know I used this set and bro let me tell you Starmie and Suicune switched in all the damn time. It's not like every Gyarados carries EQ, either (and often players will use Waterfall against Heatran anyway as a "safe prediction"). I am well aware that none of these moves will OHKO Heatran regardless, but this allows Heatran to switch into damage and still be useful. A 65% or whatever Heatran is not taking Earthquake from Salamence or Gyarados whether it holds Shuca Berry or not; however, that same Heatran will still survive Hydro Pump or Waterfall.

Additionally, I do not think Wide Lens should be an item option. A 7% boost in the accuracy of only one of your moves is hardly worth your item slot; type resist berries or Lefties or Life Orb (which incidentally allows you to run a Timid nature to outrun Gyarados and Heatran) are far superior.

I've told you before that I think Fire Blast is really just as good as Magma Storm here (even Protect Swampert will probably assume you're Choice Scarf), but that would seem to go against the spirit of the set.

So to sum up:

1. Add Passho Berry
2. Drop Wide Lens
3. Mention Life Orb and Timid somewhere
4. Use "Bro" and "Chill" more (in fact regarding the name it should probably be changed to ChillBroTran)

Thanks for the suggestions bro. My problem with Life Orb is that Specs Latias can OHKO you with Surf after the HP drop. Also, Fire Blast loses the guaranteed KO on 4HP Latias that you gain with the extra 6.25% damage from Magma Storm. Passho Berry is interesting, and would be cool to be able to kill Starmies who think they can beat you. I can definitely add that as another option. I don't think I want to take Wide Lens off, because from personal experience, the extra 7% actually was pretty big. You go from Focus Blast accuracy, to higher than Sleep Powder accuracy, which I felt more comfortable with. If anything, I'll just list all three items as options.

If anyone wants to add their thoughts on putting Passho as an option, and the new EV spread I made, please speak up!

 

[Phantom_IV]

Think of it not as a 7% accuracy boost, but 23% of the time that you would have missed, you'll hit anyway. =)

I would be in favor of listing your first spread as the primary spread and mentioning the second one as an alternate spread. The added speed seems more useful than handling a Salamence switch-in. However, the second spread definitely deserves a mention, as some players will want a guarantee that you can eliminate a Salamence switch-in. Additionally, the defense will give Heatran a chance to survive an EQ from New Mixmence even after taking some minor damage (such as from an iron head, U Turn, or bullet punch).

 

[Sei]

128 HP / 164 Def / 216 SpA

This will always survive a 252 +Atk LO EQ from Salamence, and still has enough power to KO Latias and Blissey with Magma Storm + Dragon Pulse / Explosion after SR. You end up with no speed, but that's the necessary sacrifice if you want to guarantee that Salamence cannot kill you (after SR). If enough people think this spread is better than the first, I will replace it. Also, if you think this should be an alternate spread, please say so. Thanks.

The benefit of running 128 Spe in the first EV spread was only so Heatran would outrun the neutral speed Tyranitar, which I believe is something worth sacrificing for greater survivability from the new EV spread. The 220 Spe was also given to Heatran in your RMT for it to outrun Celebi that aimed to outrun max positive speed Tyranitar, which mean that any speed lower than that would pretty much become less essential.

In respond to the new EV spread, I believe 128 HP / 164 Def / 216 SpA may indeed serve as a better alternative to 128 HP / 252 SpA / 128 Spe. As mentioned, 128 Spe serves to outrun anything with equal speed to neutral speed Tyranitar, while 220 Spe serves to outrun anything with equal speed to neutral speed Celebi that aimed to outrun positive speed Tyranitar. If going with the 128 HP / 164 Def / 216 SpA spread, you are only sacrificing the ability to outrun neutral speed Tyranitar, which I believe is really a small trade-off for a greater survivability while still maintaining the ability to knock out the aforementioned Blissey and Latias. Besides that, most neutral speed Tyranitar rarely runs max speed anyway, as most of the max speed Tyranitar I have observed were either Hasty ExpertTar or Jolly DDTar, so perhaps the Spe EV could have been lowered to outrun just the standard CBTar. But then the Spe EV spent into outrunning the CBTyranitar could really have gone into making Heatran bulkier and most CBTar would be damn bulkier thanks to the investment in HP EV anyway.

I still need a second opinion on my part though. It's probably best not to make the immediate changes, but it's entirely your decision in what to make of your thread.

 

[Zach]

You might want to mention IVs for this set since default HP Grass on Shoddy is not legal with Modest Heatran and the suggested IVs in the IVs section of the analysis weaken Explosion a lot. 26 Atk / 30 SpA is the highest Attack value that still allows Hidden Power Grass 70.

 

[DawnBringer]

31/31/30/30/31/31 for Modest HP Grass 70

The Timids force you to drop more than one of your stats, the "best" one I could find was 31/31/26/26/31/31

EDIT: or 30/30/31/30/27/31 which is slightly better for Timid