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Tournaments DPPPL VI Format Discussion

TyCarter said:
Also I think if you were to include doubles, it should not just be one doubles slot and u probably want 2 because the doubles isolation thing is very much real.
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i would like to note that this was done fairly successfully in ADVPL with both orre colosseum (ADV VGC) and ADV DOU featured

DPP DOU & 2009 both have very significant playerbases and could absolutely field a very high-quality pool, definitely worth including
 
I vaguely remember planning Farc players was a bit annoying pre draft, we essentially were always going to spend big on friends we knew were good at the tier. If the ubers community thinks they can put up a solid 16 plays for both ubers and farc however, then it's worth keeping for sure.

10 slots worked just fine last year, and i really like the idea of dpp draft over the 2nd uu (or farc).
12 slots is cool if we think there's a sizable amount of vgc players that would join to play old vgc formats. I always like seeing communities mix in tours like this. similar thought process as adding dpp draft. maybe 1 dpp draft 1 vgc if we don't want to drop a uu slot / farc?
 
gephicka said:
i would like to note that this was done fairly successfully in ADVPL with both orre colosseum (ADV VGC) and ADV DOU featured

DPP DOU & 2009 both have very significant playerbases and could absolutely field a very high-quality pool, definitely worth including
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it absolutely was not, it was done in ADVLTPL. Very different.
personally, I pushed pretty hard to not just have one doubles slot - its a nightmare in teamtours for a billion reasons and I dont care to get into it for the nth time in this post. just want to say I think expanding to 12 to fit 2 doubles is the best way to have it.
i totally support draft being in - dpp draft was recently played in a major draft team tour(Draft Winter League) to a solid degree of success. the board was adapted for that tour so it shld be quote unquote up to date even if some people have their grumblings. it would be tuff. other than that - cut 2nd uu, cut farc if everyone hates it, add an extra ou - all seems good. if youre cutting 2nd uu and farc, and adding ou, and looking for a last slot - draft doesnt meaningfully detract from any of the other player pools, unless someone REALLY wanted to get me for ou. its easy to support, contribute to, draft for, sub into.
 
Im honestly in favor of dropping a UU slot (as much fun as the meta is) in favor of a ZU slot. DPP ZU has a pretty good fanbase and would fit very well here to give it more attention. I'd also want to make it so both managers can play. If the pricing needs to fit that structure, then that's fine. But a lot of times in these PLs, I'm seeing teams with 2 great managers that both are great players too. I'm sure I'm not the only one who agrees here. If we HAVE to do only 1 manager self-buy, then so be it.

Anyway, long story short: ZU > 2nd UU and 2 manager self-buys! Thank you =)
 
I do want to add that I don't think player draft headaches are an inherently bad thing. Scouting, finding of talent, nurturing of talent are all things that are built into being a successful manager, something that I have both personally done, and seen great success in LC team tours when they have looked at promising unpolished talent, especially in old gens. For that point alone I would say that any argument of Farceus / Doubles + VGC / Draft being hard to prep a player draft for is actually a good thing.

The vitriol for Farceus is clearly not indicative of its supporters and functions similarly to many unliked but important tiers which people who dislike it will clearly not touch.

In an additional note, while I don't have a stake in it. Bo3 is historically a draining slot for teams in general due to the prep work required, it should definitely only be one slot.

I would say that format wise, I think something like replacing last year's with Draft over UU2 is strong, as would be an increase to 11 or 12 slots with additions of Both doubles (DOU/2009) and no draft for 11, and both doubles disciplines and draft for 12. (All of these assume 1 UU slot.)

As I mentioned before you could also just keep 2 UU slots and either add a second LC slot, or makes Farc a second LC slot. Or take any of the above replacing draft with a second LC slot as that has more than enough players to function.
 
Saw Monotype brought up a few times in this thread, and while normally I'd support Monotype, DPP Monotype is unviable and should not be considered for DPP Premier League. It is not a standard tier in Monotype and is generally discarded as a meme because the tier is bring Steel or lose basically. Recently the only two people developing the tier unbanned evasion abilities to bring some life to the tier so, not a good sign. No one in the community talks / develops the tier and was recently moved to the Monotype OM category as a result.
 
I get that people want more representation but is it really the consensus around here that having at least 9 DPP metagames as tycarter suggests (or even more judging from some peoples posts) is the most desirable option for a team tournament? I've been around in DPP for a while and I would have to say that it would imply that for most games I have no clue what is going on (either as a player or spectator) and i'm not the only one here, I think this would be the case for the vast majority of people.

If I have a teammate who wins a game of doubles, sure I can congratulate them on their victory afterward but since i didn't understand the game that would be mostly empty politeness, since I can't tell whether my teammate just made an incredible play/is winning/is losing or made a great comeback. In other words the exciting aspects of a teammates game are not going to come from the game itself as you'd expect in a team tournament.

If you are playing a game of Farceus chances are that there is going to be more discussion about your game in the DPP Ubers discord then there will be in your team discord. Exciting for the DPP ubers discord I'm sure but for the team itself their experience of you is mostly going to be your results on the spreadsheet.

In the official SPL when we see extended posts about how teams performed like this one, they exclusively talk about the spreadsheet performance of players. To me it seems only natural that this is the end result of having so many metagames being played in one tournament, unless you somehow happen to know all these metagames at the top level, you can only observe of what is going on at a surface level by looking at spreadsheets.

For managers this means that they are less incentivized to build teams on how well players synergize or can support each other but rather on how well they have performed based on past spreadsheet results. I'd argue that the more metagames are added the less it becomes about building a cohesive team but just filling slots with the best individual performances.

I think the more teammates you have that know the metagame you're playing the more potential there is for them to support you and turn your victory into a team effort rather than an individual effort. I think when deciding a format for a team tournament the first and foremost goal should be that as many games as possible were a team effort or that as many players as possible felt that they were playing for a team and not for personal spreadsheet glory and adding multiple obscure metagames is directly contradictory to that
 
mien said:
I get that people want more representation but is it really the consensus around here that having at least 9 DPP metagames as tycarter suggests (or even more judging from some peoples posts) is the most desirable option for a team tournament? I've been around in DPP for a while and I would have to say that it would imply that for most games I have no clue what is going on (either as a player or spectator) and i'm not the only one here, I think this would be the case for the vast majority of people.

If I have a teammate who wins a game of doubles, sure I can congratulate them on their victory afterward but since i didn't understand the game that would be mostly empty politeness, since I can't tell whether my teammate just made an incredible play/is winning/is losing or made a great comeback. In other words the exciting aspects of a teammates game are not going to come from the game itself as you'd expect in a team tournament.

If you are playing a game of Farceus chances are that there is going to be more discussion about your game in the DPP Ubers discord then there will be in your team discord. Exciting for the DPP ubers discord I'm sure but for the team itself their experience of you is mostly going to be your results on the spreadsheet.

In the official SPL when we see extended posts about how teams performed like this one, they exclusively talk about the spreadsheet performance of players. To me it seems only natural that this is the end result of having so many metagames being played in one tournament, unless you somehow happen to know all these metagames at the top level, you can only observe of what is going on at a surface level by looking at spreadsheets.

For managers this means that they are less incentivized to build teams on how well players synergize or can support each other but rather on how well they have performed based on past spreadsheet results. I'd argue that the more metagames are added the less it becomes about building a cohesive team but just filling slots with the best individual performances.

I think the more teammates you have that know the metagame you're playing the more potential there is for them to support you and turn your victory into a team effort rather than an individual effort. I think when deciding a format for a team tournament the first and foremost goal should be that as many games as possible were a team effort or that as many players as possible felt that they were playing for a team and not for personal spreadsheet glory and adding multiple obscure metagames is directly contradictory to that
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This is an excellent point and it's why I think the draft format is quite literally the only exception to this rule. It's very conducive to getting teammate/manager feedback because you don't need anything except the general ability to look at a scout(which you should be doing if you're drafted to play for your own tier, whether PU or OU or Ubers or whatever) and help someone pitch some ideas for trying to cteam the opponent's strategy/put yourself in the best position to win.

I said before I don't really think doubles is a good choice just because it leaves those players generally locked to their own channel and players will either write "nice win" or "damn unlucky"; plus, without having at least two slots(tough ask imo and unrealistic) then doubles players generally wouldn't be able to support each other.

Draft is about working to make the best team out of the resources you have to beat the opponent's, so it exists in its own realm and is very easy for someone to help assist with, regardless of what format they're in.
 
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excellent post from mien , the best argument anyone could have made without even talking about the competitiveness of certain tiers.

When I think about how I want a monogen ttour to be structured, I believe there should be a heavy emphasis on OU. If you draft a shit OU you should immediately lose the ttour (so dont draft me) and the supporting tiers should somewhat resemble another tier in the format, either by having mons overlap, general strategy overlap or playerbase overlap.

I believe doubles has absolutely no place in the format for reasons above and as others have highlighted it's very difficult to implement without creating a Doubles island in your teamcord.

I believe all of the DPP Slam tiers automatically have a (limited) place in the format.

Draft can be added, because it somewhat resembles other tiers in the format.
Blitz BoX can be added for the tiktokbrained among you.

I strongly believe in adding tiers (most) of your team can somewhat relate to and would therefore like to watch/keep tabs on what's going on in those tiers.
With this in mind I propose the following format:

Ubers
OU
OU
OU Bo3
OU Blitz Bo5
Draft
UU
NU
PU
LC

If we go for 8 slots just keep the previous format -farc -UU
I don't subscribe to the idea that DPP needs mickey tiers to keep DPP PL 'fresh'.
 
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