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Dragon Dance in BW2

I can tell that you guys are counting Latios out of the race because of its mediocre Attack stat, but you forget that Dragon Dance boosts Speed as well.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRyuqyN0SNGbkyn6q4ouI2xdl0LaYZ7HSb6uXlSfjrS0oEa9bp_

Latios @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Pulse
- Surf
- Hidden Power Fire

While Latios cannot abuse Dragon Dance to its full potential due to having a basically unusable Attack, its sky-high 130 Special Attack stat amazing. Dragon Dance is its only method outside of Choice Scarf that allows Latios to boost its Speed. After Latios has had its Speed boosted, it can no longer be revenge killed by almost every Scarfer due to outspeeding them and can outspeed most Chlorophyll sweepers after two boosts. Take note that this isn't just something I theorymonned up; this is similar to a set Ubers Latios proficiently runs.
 
If Multiscale is such a determining factor on Dragonite why would you run LO when that itself breaks Multiscale itself?

As for factors determining why Salamence is better it really isn't that hard to see: moxie. Last generation Salamence was the greatest ever simply because with one Dragon Dance underneath its belt it was almost unstoppable, and it was very easy to set up one Dragon Dance. While the opportunities are harder to set up in general this generation (for all Dragon Dancers, not just Salamence), it still follows the trend of one Dragon Dance rapes at least one Pokemon.

Now we get to talk about Moxie, which itself keeps the pain going while Salamence sweeps the opponents team.

Dragonite has... slightly better bulk (not including Multiscale), where as Salamence has slightly better Attack and Special Attack. Throwing out Fire Blasts on opponent's Ferrothorn, Skamory, Forretress, and Genesect and getting that +1 attack for each subsequent kill. Dragonite has Fire Punch, but as calcs done in this thread have shown it really isn't that cool.

Of course Salamence has hindering features that make it a bit worse in certain cases. The fact that in rain Fire Blast isn't going to be snagging those delicious KOes on Ferrothorn and Skamory, but then again you could be that super cool guy that runs Hydro Pump on your Salamence, but you'd still be cock-blocked by Ferrothorn.

I also find it really dumb that you guys assume Multiscale is always active. The situations where you need to have Multiscale active are: coming in after a KO (meaning that you have lost a pokemon) and Stealth Rock is not up (and if you're playing against someone competent it should be up). You tell me that "oh we can always Taunt the SR poke or use Magic Bounce (espeon or xatu? lol okay) or run rapid spin support!" Judging from stats Starmie is the most common Rapid Spin pokemon with Forretress two positions lower. Starmie is a frail pos that can't come in on any heavy hitter given that the common EV spread is 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe. Given that Starmie loses to a spinblocker as a whole (Hi Jellicent!!!) I'm going to assume we're talking about Forretress since it has the opportunity to set-up when not spinning. In the top ten alone there consists of eight pokemon which can not only set up on Forretress but beat it 1v1. In the top twenty about 17 of those pokemon destroy Forretress by themselves. I'm pretty sure spinners aren't the greatest asset in this metagame anyway.

Aside from that what if you're playing a sand team? Multiscale is broken if you switch in, now what do you do? The greatest boon of Dragonite is Multiscale right?
 
alright im gunna attempt to break it down.. my top 3.

salamence is probably the most THREATENING DDer, imo. the main reason being is because it outspeeds genesect, which is pretty much the DD killer. 100 speed means that you will be able to dispose of genesect quickly with a fire blast, and it can also net you a moxie boost. like others have mentioned above, once moxie gets going, it becomes pretty hard to stop. moxie + that ONE extra speed point over genesect is the reason it is the most deadly. i am fully aware that genesect is not the ONLY scarfer capable of revenge killing mence, but at the moment, it is the most common and the one scarfer dominating the metagame in terms of usage.

now, in order for salamence to sweep, there a few key things needed to be done. first off, removing steel types. this is easier said than done. back in the day, we had magnezone to stop ferrothorn and forry from running rampant. but in the current metagame magnezone is pretty ineffective. forretress can volt switch, scizor and genesect can u-turn, heatran will be trapped but can dispose of zone easily. this means that ferrothorn, skarmory, and jirachi are the main ones which zone will be trapping. however, ferrothorn and jirachi are usually teamed up with a politoed, to remove the 4x weakness for the former and usually to aid the subCMer in the latter. this becomes difficult for specs zone to kill these pokes off. another omnipresent threat is PRIORITY. being 4x weak to ice shard is one of the few reasons why salamence wont sweep outright. if your opponents team is lacking an ice sharder, well that just makes sweeping ten times easier. however, ice shard is not the only of salamences worries. although it resists mach punch and aqua jet, bullet punch is a big thorn in mences side. add in the fact that it is stripped of 25% of its health every time it switches in due to SR, and you will realize that killing off mence is not TOO difficult.

dragonite is the second most threatening. although it has more natural bulk than most of the other DDers, it also shares that nasty 4x weakness to ice with mence. although it has multiscale, we cannot always assume that SR will be off the field. this is actually one of the reasons that salamence is given the nod over dnite for most threatening. dragonite (especially bulky DD versions) not only needs its counters removed, it also requires a rapid spinner for dragonite to function at its fullest. now, its pretty obvious that every dragon dancer requires some kind of support, but the fact that dragonite needs its team mates to get rid of walls AND to keep SR off the field means it will have a harder time setting up. also, genesect exists, meaning even a +1 dragonite, assuming its not full health, will lose against the insect.

finally, i think gyarados is tied with dragonite in terms of being a threatening sweeper. first of all, with rain being the most used weather, gyarados can smack things around with rain boosted +1 waterfalls. that in itself is highly effective. as numerous people have mentioned above, it isn't weak to any priority move which makes it a lot harder to revenge kill. and to top it all off, it has two useful abilities in moxie and intimidate. intimidate makes it easier to set up on physical mons, but for a more offensive route people will find moxie to be the preferred choice. in the same vein as salamence, it only needs to kill off 1 or 2 pokemon in order to snowball and eventually wipe out the entire team. however, unlike salamence, the standard DD version is easily revenge killed by genesect. however, variants of gyara with bounce can dispose of gensect assuming it isnt carrying thunder.

just my 2 cents
 
That Dragonite can DD in Genesect's face while Multiscale is intact is huge.

I don't get why you would actually try to DD on Genesect - If it's got a Special Attack boost from something else and an Expert Belt or Life Orb, Ice Beam always OHKOes Dragonite through Multiscale. So, setting up on Genesect seems like a risk that just isn't worth it. The fact that Salamence can outspeed Genesect after a DD is huge.

Salamence can get quite a few set-up opportunities. Scarf Politoed locked into Surf (hell ScarfToed's rain Hydro Pump only does 50.75 - 59.81% to NaiveMence so...), with a Lum Berry you can set up on standard SpD Jirachi while it doesn't need to be weakened much to get OHKOed by +1 Earthquake, SpD Heatran (who never runs HP Ice, although you do need a Lum Berry), Choice-locked resists/immunities, non-Ice Beam Blissey (if you have Lum Berry, and do people even use Ice Beam Blissey anymore? lol), Breloom (except for those with Stone Edge, but I only ever really see Stone Edge on Choiced Breloom), Forretress (Gyro Ball still isn't 2HKOing when Mence gets +1), etc. I'll admit Salamence is harder to set up, but honestly I just see this as a cost of using a Dragon Dancer that's overall better. I view Dragonite as "easy to set up, easy to stop", while Salamence is much, much harder to stop, especially with Genesect pretty much being on every other team. Additionally, for Dragonite you 100% have to pull off a successful Rapid Spin, while Starmie being beaten by SpD Jellicent (the Jellicent you should be using) and Forretress just losing to spinblockers in general isn't helping. For Salamence, although Rapid Spin support helps, it's not required (in fact, I have made several teams using Salamence and no spinner).
 
What is so difficult about the concept of LO on DDnite? You use Dragon Dance, take a hit, and then attack, therefore LO does not waste MS. Easy to get, no?

Oh and Salamence practically does not have better Attack, they have the same Atk stats. I don't consider 2 more points, slightly better Attack. Slightlly better attack is what Dragonite has over Gyarados. And usually Dragonite has better Atk because he can use Adamant unlike Mence, who must use Naive to take advantage of his speed. I am talking strictly in terms of Attack, not including BP of moves or hold items.

And Milos when you say most threatening you mean the better or no? Because most threatening is not the same with better.
 
@alexwolf: not necessarily which is the "better" dragon dancer, just what i think is the one with the biggest chance to sweep a team. dragonite and gyarados don't have the same combination of power and speed that mence has, and because of that (and a few other things) is why i put mence as the most threatening dragon dance user.
 
I don't get why you would actually try to DD on Genesect - If it's got a Special Attack boost from something else and an Expert Belt or Life Orb, Ice Beam always OHKOes Dragonite through Multiscale. So, setting up on Genesect seems like a risk that just isn't worth it.

I'll admit Salamence is harder to set up, but honestly I just see this as a cost of using a Dragon Dancer that's overall better.

Why even consider the situation of Dragonite attempting to set up on a Genesect that already has +1? There are so many other factors in that situation, not the least of which being that Genesect may be locked into a move other than Ice Beam. Besides, I thought we were talking about Genesect countering Dragonite.

Of course setting up in a Genesect's face without knowing it's set is overly risky, but on Scarf Gene, even at +1, it can be done. If you already know it's Scarf Gene, there's no risk whatsoever (besides a crit but meh.)

Ease of setting up is a big part of how overall good a set up sweeper is, and there are plenty of testaments to this in the lower tiers. If a Pokemon is too hard to set up, or if another pulls off more or less the same job with an easier set up, the latter is better, at least in my view. I suspect this is the reason why many opt for Choice Scarf Salamence over DD Mence.
 
Milos is right, but that's not the only thing that defines a good Dragon Dancer. The fact that it is easier for Nite to set up is why I think they are pretty much equal as sweepers (yeah, forget Gyarados) Salamence is a lot harder to stop, you're right, when you only have a Genesect. But what about Terrakion? It still outspeeds Mence, and can OHKO. Dragonite, on the other hand, doesn't care about Terrakion. Multiscale cushions the Stone Edge, allowing you to get one more boost before sweeping. With Salamence, you'd die straight off the bat. This happens with Scarfed Latios and Scarfed Landorus-I /Thundurus-T as well.

Also remember that in the Genesect example, Dnite's SpDef is higher than its Def, so if uninvested Genesect will never get to +1.

I think that the only thing that would possibly make Nite worse than Sala would be the fact that Rocks have to be down and away. If SR isn't up and Dnite is at full health, I think it has an advantage over Salamence. If that can not be done, then Salamence is better. Because it really depends on playstyle, team members, and the player's prediction, you can't really say that either is better than the other.
 
Everyone seems to be saying that, just because it has Dragon Dance, DD Latios should be mostly physical. Something like...

Latios @ Life Orb
Hasty/Naive
4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
-Dragon Dance
-Dragon Pulse / Draco Meteor
-Hidden Power [Fire]
-Earthquake

...could work really well to avoid being revenge killed by Scarfers below base 110 Speed (a ton of them, but chief among them are Genesect and Garchomp) and at the same time get past SDef Heatran. It's hard to judge it as a user of Dragon Dance alongside the others, though, because it only uses the Attack boost for Heatran and weakened Jirachi, really. It's something to consider as an option, though.

EDIT: Why don't I refresh to see if people post similar things while I'm making my post? Well, this one has Earthquake, so at least it's kinda different. Sort of.
 
In my view, easy to set up but easy to stop is not good at all. Harder to set up but even harder to stop is good. Really, Moxie alone makes Salamence harder to stop than Dragonite, because the more boosts you get the less likely you are to wall it, while Dragonite at +1 is just weak as fuck, as shown by my ExtremeSpeed calcs.

If setting up on Genesect is overly risky, why are you even suggesting attempting it?

Also, seriously, people need to quit assuming Multiscale is always intact because it's not. This is why I say Dragonite still loses to Mamoswine (and if Dragonite is unboosted, Mamoswine actually OHKOes with Icicle Crash through Multiscale), ScarfLatios, Weavile (Weavile needs to be healthy though), and it also still loses to Scarf Terrakion because as I already said multiple times, no one is going to be stupid enough to try to revenge kill a Dragonite when Multiscale is intact. Also, as we all know the wrath of ScarfMoxieMence, DDMence can tie with ScarfMence while once Multiscale's gone, Dragonite loses 100% of the time. A 50% chance to win is greater than a 0% chance to win. The way I see it, Multiscale is better on paper than it is in practice.
 
In my view, easy to set up but easy to stop is not good at all. Harder to set up but even harder to stop is good. Really, Moxie alone makes Salamence harder to stop than Dragonite, because the more boosts you get the less likely you are to wall it, while Dragonite at +1 is just weak as fuck, as shown by my ExtremeSpeed calcs.

If setting up on Genesect is overly risky, why are you even suggesting attempting it?

Also, seriously, people need to quit assuming Multiscale is always intact because it's not. This is why I say Dragonite still loses to Mamoswine (and if Dragonite is unboosted, Mamoswine actually OHKOes with Icicle Crash through Multiscale), ScarfLatios, Weavile (Weavile needs to be healthy though), and it also still loses to Scarf Terrakion because as I already said multiple times, no one is going to be stupid enough to try to revenge kill a Dragonite when Multiscale is intact. Also, as we all know the wrath of ScarfMoxieMence, DDMence can tie with ScarfMence while once Multiscale's gone, Dragonite loses 100% of the time. A 50% chance to win is greater than a 0% chance to win. The way I see it, Multiscale is better on paper than it is in practice.

As I said, there is no risk in setting up an additional DD (getting to +2 Atk and Speed) on a Scarf Genesect (by this I mean that you know for a fact that it is scarfed; this isn't hard to find out) that switches in on Dragonite at full HP. Make of it what you will. Keeping Multiscale intact isn't as hard as you make it seem. I think keeping Multiscale intact is a priority for Dragonite users.

You say that "no one is going to try to revenge Dragonite without breaking Multiscale". If your opponent prevents you from doing so, you have no choice. Again, keeping Multiscale intact is not as impossible as you make it seem.

Dragonite isn't easy to stop. Salamence at +1 is equally as 'weak' if he forgoes Life Orb, and easier to revenge either way. Dragonite can actually take an Ice Shard with from full HP and OHKO Mamoswine, something Mence can't boast. Mence is much easier to stop due to residual damage and his vulnerability to most types of priority with the exception of Mach Punch. At least Dragonite can defend against weakened priority users with Extremespeed.

On top of all this, there are practically no Pokemon in OU that Salamence can set up on. Does it matter what +1 Salamence can do if it can't set up? If a DD user can't use DD safely, how can it possibly be 'the best'?

Moxie is indeed a great ability but it is often, as you say, better on paper than in practice. If Multiscale was better on paper than in practice, I doubt Dragonite would see the usage that it does.
 
Again, if any Mamoswine user is moronic enough to actually try to revenge Dragonite while Multiscale is intact, then the Mamoswine user is an idiot. They're not good examples to use in this thread.

I already told you what Salamence could set up on, and you completely ignored it. The things I mentioned are actually pretty common.

Multiscale is better on paper than in practice because, on average, it's only intact for one turn (and sometimes even zero turns if you're facing a sand team or hail team) unless you're running a Multiscale abusing set. Also, Moxie is just about as good, if not better, in practice than it is on paper. Free attack boosts for killing stuff? Yes please!

Also, Dragonite is easy to stop. Slow, weak (Salamence is stronger in the long run thanks to Moxie), and Multiscale is unreliable. Both lose to Mamoswine 100% of the time anyway because no Mamoswine user with a brain is going to try to revenge a +1 Dragonite with Multiscale intact, they will always break Multiscale first. That is a guarantee.
 
Sorry about that lucaroark, I missed that part of your quote. But honestly, all of those Pokemon can cripple Salamence. Jirachi can easily paralyze Mence as Jirachi tends to do, Heatran can burn him with Lava Plume/Wiill-O-Wisp, and Forretress commonly carries either Gyroball or HP Ice, both of which can cripple Salamence, not to mention Sturdy.

Moxie only helps you when things are going in your favor. Multiscale is much better, overall, especially since Dragonite has Roost.

You must be kidding calling 134 Attack 'weak' by any standard. I understand you prefer Salamence, but that statement is objectively false. Moxie is not guaranteed to activate, so saying mence is stronger in the long run due to Moxie is assuming that Mence actually KOes anything.

How can one guarantee that Multiscale will be broken? Stealth Rock can be spun away, and even if you manage to damage Dragonite, it has recovery. There is no such guarantee.

Edit: Ok, so sand can reliably prevent Multiscale, but that's part of the reason Dragonite is seen in tandem with Politoed/Ninetales. It isn't easy to revenge Dragonite regardless. The only advantage Mence has when it comes to avoiding revenge killers is outspeeding and KOing Genesect, which I agree is significant, while Dragonite would have to tank an Ice Beam using Multiscale.
 
Everyone seems to be saying that, just because it has Dragon Dance, DD Latios should be mostly physical. Something like...

Latios @ Life Orb
Hasty/Naive
4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
-Dragon Dance
-Dragon Pulse / Draco Meteor
-Hidden Power [Fire]
-Earthquake

...could work really well to avoid being revenge killed by Scarfers below base 110 Speed (a ton of them, but chief among them are Genesect and Garchomp) and at the same time get past SDef Heatran. It's hard to judge it as a user of Dragon Dance alongside the others, though, because it only uses the Attack boost for Heatran and weakened Jirachi, really. It's something to consider as an option, though.

EDIT: Why don't I refresh to see if people post similar things while I'm making my post? Well, this one has Earthquake, so at least it's kinda different. Sort of.
Hmmm, that looks interesting. I wonder how much a DD-boosted Earthquake does to Tyranitar?
 
4 +1 Atk Latios Earthquake vs 0 HP/0 Def Tyranitar: 53.37% - 63.34%

4 +1 Atk Latios Earthquake vs 252 HP/0 Def Tyranitar: 45.05% - 53.47%

how about no
 
android, did you miss the parts of the quote where I specified use of Lum Berry? It's the better item on both Dragonite AND Salamence anyway. Forretress usually isn't at full health and gets its shit fucked by Fire Blast anyway.

You have a small point with Roost, but everyone just attacks Dragonite anyway so it still doesn't guarantee keeping Multiscale intact. Rapid Spin? Say hello to Jellicent, and Starmie is retardedly easy to kill (and beaten by SpD Jellicent). So, Multiscale is indeed only intact for one turn on average, potentially even zero (against Sand, Hail, or if you can't get SR off the field).

If you're so paranoid with Salamence not being able to set up due to it being less bulky than Dragonite, try pairing it with Dual Screens Espeon. Think of it as a temporary Multiscale that still works when Salamence isn't at full HP. This combo is simply godly and far more effective than Dragonite any day of the week.
 
android, did you miss the parts of the quote where I specified use of Lum Berry? It's the better item on both Dragonite AND Salamence anyway. Forretress usually isn't at full health and gets its shit fucked by Fire Blast anyway.

You have a small point with Roost, but everyone just attacks Dragonite anyway so it still doesn't guarantee keeping Multiscale intact. Rapid Spin? Say hello to Jellicent, and Starmie is retardedly easy to kill (and beaten by SpD Jellicent). So, Multiscale is indeed only intact for one turn on average, potentially even zero (against Sand, Hail, or if you can't get SR off the field).

If you're so paranoid with Salamence not being able to set up due to it being less bulky than Dragonite, try pairing it with Dual Screens Espeon. Think of it as a temporary Multiscale that still works when Salamence isn't at full HP. This combo is simply godly and far more effective than Dragonite any day of the week.
A few points:

I did, sorry. I thought you were championing LO Salamence.

But just saying, +Speed Lum Berry Salamence can't OHKO 252/0 Jirachi at +1, so he can't exactly set up on it, either. Also, if you Fire Blast Forretress, you didn't get to set up. The Forretress user would be stupid to switch out and let you DD.

Spinblocking isn't so common outside of stall. Most teams lack a spinblocker. Besides, there are plenty of ways of dealing with Jellicent (trapping).

Dual Screens is great for any offensive Pokemon, so that's not exactly a point in Salamence's favor. A few more points of speed (which is negligible at +2 or higher) for less bulk and the cost of the necessity of a specific teammate: I don't see how that is any more effective than using Dragonite.

Edit: My last point on this subject is that Salamence is a high risk DD user. The magnitude of the reward is a YMMV thing. Being able to outspeed and KO Genesect without relying on being at full HP is great, and a Moxie snowball is scary if you don't have priority. But most people, including myself, obviously prefer Dragonite, likely for the wide range of things it can set up on and the combination of power, speed, and durability it has at +1.
 
A few points:

I did, sorry. I thought you were championing LO Salamence.

But just saying, +Speed Lum Berry Salamence can't OHKO 252/0 Jirachi at +1, so he can't exactly set up on it, either. Also, if you Fire Blast Forretress, you didn't get to set up. The Forretress user would be stupid to switch out and let you DD.

Spinblocking isn't so common outside of stall. Most teams lack a spinblocker. Besides, there are plenty of ways of dealing with Jellicent (trapping).

Dual Screens is great for any offensive Pokemon, so that's not exactly a point in Salamence's favor. A few more points of speed (which is negligible at +2 or higher) for less bulk and the cost of the necessity of a specific teammate: I don't see how that is any more effective than using Dragonite.

Edit: My last point on this subject is that Salamence is a high risk DD user. The magnitude of the reward is a YMMV thing. Being able to outspeed and KO Genesect without relying on being at full HP is great, and a Moxie snowball is scary if you don't have priority. But most people, including myself, obviously prefer Dragonite, likely for the wide range of things it can set up on and the combination of power, speed, and durability it has at +1.

Well, generally people don't bring in dd mence till late game, and by that time jirachi is usually worn down a bit especially if you have hazards and other dragons for it to wall. I've found that dual screens is not that efficient for mence, as many a times ice beam still OHKO's mence (even with Hasty). On forretress, you just have to make sure it doesn't have sturdy intact, and then you can easily set up on it.

When using dual screens it's more effective to use dnite as it is MUCH easier to set up with Multiscale, and superior bulk. Also at +2 mence doesnt have the speed advantage as both of them outspeed everything.
 
Well, generally people don't bring in dd mence till late game, and by that time jirachi is usually worn down a bit especially if you have hazards and other dragons for it to wall. I've found that dual screens is not that efficient for mence, as many a times ice beam still OHKO's mence (even with Hasty). On forretress, you just have to make sure it doesn't have sturdy intact, and then you can easily set up on it.

When using dual screens it's more effective to use dnite as it is MUCH easier to set up with Multiscale, and superior bulk. Also at +2 mence doesnt have the speed advantage as both of them outspeed everything.

Using dual screens with Dragonite is completely redundant, as it's already bulky. So, Mence values the support far more.

Why are you trying to take Ice Beams with something that's 4x weak anyway? I find that even with a Dragonite with Multiscale intact, you should never be setting up on Ice moves, ever. Even with Multiscale, most Ice attacks still 2HKO (and can potentially come close to OHKOing), while some straight up OHKO Dragonite through Multiscale (LO Mamoswine's Icicle Crash, Kyurem's Ice Beam, +2 LO Lucario's Ice Punch, and there's probably quite a few more), so realistically even with Multiscale, Dragonite still has serious trouble taking Ice-type attacks. Really, neither Dragonite nor Salamence should be attempting to set up on anything that carries Ice moves.

Also, against a half-competent player, neither Dragonite nor Salamence are getting to +2. If someone lets either get to +2, they deserve to get swept. Also, fun fact: Choice Scarf Terrakion outspeeds +2 Adamant Dragonite! (nobody uses JollyNite lol) So, since neither are getting to +2 against competent players, I value the snowball effect of Moxie far more than something that'll realistically only get one use per battle.
 
Scrafty has an amazing STAB combination, excellent bulk, and not two but THREE great abilities for a setup sweeper. Its problems are why it fell out of OU favor though - bad defensive typing, weakness to Mach Punch, and it's ridiculously weak.

Yeah I have to agree with you that Scrafty can be an absolute menace after two DD, and as long as nothing is carrying Mach Punch it can easily wreck shop with Hi Jump Kick, Crunch, and Ice Punch. However, Breloom takes a shit on it, and Scarfed Mamoswine carrying Superpower isn't good for the little gangster. However, it's pretty amazing how well he shines in UU compared to OU, and I think sending him to UU was a great decision. The only thing I can think of that is an immense priority threat to Scrafty in UU is a Mach Punching TechniTop, although it's not nearly as common as the defensive variant.
 
Personally I find Gyarados with DD to be a big problem for most people, especially when its slapped on a rain team. I've been useing it on my current rain team for about 3 weeks or so now and this is my current set:


Gyarados- RAGE QUIT
Jolly- Moxie @ Lum Berry
252 Attack/ 252 Speed/ 6 HP
Dragon Dance
Waterfall
Bounce
Earthquake

I pair it with my Baton Passing Gliscore:


Gliscore- StallBat
Impish- Poison Heal @ Toxic Orb
200HP/ 228Def/ 80 Speed
Substitute
Baton Pass
Ice Fang
Earthquake

The cool thing is even since the start of this gen most people don't see Gliscore use Baton Pass anymore so it catch alot of people off guard. Gliscore and Gyarados also have some pretty strong synergy in the sence that they pretty much cover each others weaknesses. Anyways how they work; Bring in Gliscore and set up a Sub and then Baton Pass out to Gyarados. If they bring in a water type to counter Gliscore then Gyarados is a pretty safe switch with BAton Pass. If the opponets poke is faster though then they break the sub and I can bring in something apporpirate. It works really well and after 1 DD Gyarados can pretty much out pace eventhing in the metagame baring a few scarfed varient., And since he's chillen' behind a sub theres no need to worry about getting hit with a move if someone brings in something to check him or they have say something like Politoed on the feild and they think that Politoed can widdle Gyarados down with Scalds and maybe a burn .If they can't break the sub when Gyarados is brought in you get a free DD up and just go to town w/ Moxie boosts. This also give Gyarados and extra move slot free for another move to help it sweep more effectively. And if someone thinks after they broke Gyarados' sub that they can status it, NOPE! The lum berry allows Gyarados to be able to become and even bigger threat. It also helps with those random Scald burns and when people try to Toxic stall it out.
 
Sub DD MoxieDos had been very effective for me til the release of genesect. Steels make it harder for it to keep the sweep going. I have been trying to get a team together with MoxieMence that proves successful in BW2 to no avail (if anyone can help me PM me), and SubDD Kingdra proves useful on Sand and Hail Teams to counter Rain Teams.
 
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