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Dragon Dance in BW2

Dragonite in my opinion has quite a few advantages over Salamence as a Dragon Dancer. Salamence is indeed more powerful and scary at +1, with substantially better Speed, marginally better Attack and Moxie threatening a snowball effect. However, it is extremely easy to revenge kill; there is a plethora of common Scarfers with more than base 100 Speed and access to a random Ice move to cut Salamence's sweep short, not to even mention priority users (hi Mamoswine, hi Scizor) that usually need very marginal residual damage, if at all, to get rid of Mence. All those problems are relatively less important for Dragonite: first of all, your opponent must have broken Multiscale before even thinking about a revenge kill (well, except those +1 SpA Genesect, but Download should give an Atk boost in most cases while switching into Dragonite); even if Multiscale is not active, Dragonite has access to Extremespeed, which is literally invaluable in my experience, since you only need to weaken a bit most checks in order to sweep. To sum up, Dragonite has more reliable sweeping abilities after setting up, being more resilient to common checks and having access to strong priority. Of course, Salamence is better provided you remove every obstacle between it and a clean sweep, but in my opinion reliability is often better than raw power, thus my preference for Dragonite.

Also, this is not strictly related to the previous point, but Dragonite has access to a physical Fire move, which is quite a bit of an advantage over Mence, which is forced to use Fire Blast; the fact that it's not boosted by DD and its shaky accuracy are always a letdown, at least for my tastes.

But most things that Salamence want to hit with Fire Blast are weak on the special side, such as Skarmory. Acess to a physical Fire move is not really an advantage if you consider this.

252Atk Choice Band Dragonite (+Atk) Fire Punch vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Sturdy Skarmory (+Def): 47% - 55% (158 - 186 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 9% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.

4SpAtk Salamence (Neutral) Fire Blast vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Sturdy Skarmory (Neutral): 75% - 89% (252 - 298 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

There are a few Pokemon not mentioned that are OU viable and can run Dragon Dance as well.

Lapras gets Hydration DD+Rest, allowing it to prevent the bane of all sweepers - status. It also gets their primary STAB boosted in Rain, and is just a pain in the ass to play around. The problems lie in the fact that it can only run two attacking moves and has a horrible typing.

Scrafty has an amazing STAB combination, excellent bulk, and not two but THREE great abilities for a setup sweeper. Its problems are why it fell out of OU favor though - bad defensive typing, weakness to Mach Punch, and it's ridiculously weak.

Kingdra gets DD+Rain Dance and an excellent STAB combination, but is a bit on the weak side and gets hard walled by Ferrothorn.

Crawdaunt has Adaptability but is otherwise not a great user of the move.

Altaria and Tropius aren't OU viable, and Whiscash and Feraligatr don't have the tools to run their best DD set (Hydration/Sheer Force respectively) ...yet.

Lapras is horribly walled by most bulky Water-types and Ferrothorn and is initially weak and slow. Scrafty's bulk is not that excellent - try to hit it with strong Fighting-type, rain/sun-boosted Water/Fire-type attacks, or Hurricane. Crawdaunt is too slow and is a bit frail.
 
Dragon Dance Haxorus isn't anywhere NEAR top Dragon Dancer. I've used it extensively and i've determined that it really isn't that good in BW2. It was sweet trump card in BW1 since you could save it for mid lategame and drop it like its hot when given the opportunity. In BW2, Genesect is literally everywhere so there's no point to using a dedicated Dragon Dance Haxorus set without someone serious Magnezone support.

I'm afraid this also applies to Double Dancer, though that set isn't hit as hard. It can function as a wallbreaker for the most part, and dance when Gene isn't around which is nice. But yeah Genesect really hit this thing hard. Salamence is BW's top dancer because it (surprise!) outspeeds Genesect. Dragonite is nowhere is godlike as it used to be because Genesect is always there to stop it at +1.

Salamence > Dragonite > Haxorus > Gyarados > Kingdra > Scrafty > Latios > Tyranitar

First 2 are set in stone, rest is eh.
 
Salamence > Dragonite > Haxorus > Gyarados > Kingdra > Scrafty > Latios > Tyranitar

I would like to reorder this list:

Dragonite > Salamence > Gyarados > Haxorus > Scrafty > Latios > Tyranitar > Kingdra

Dragonite deserves more love than Mence because he's been the staple DDancer for about eight months now and he's not leaving anytime soon. With a plethora of options before him (Offensive DD, Bulky DD, SubDD), as well as an extremely varied attack pool (Outrage, Dragon Claw, Fire Punch, Earthquake, Waterfall, ExtremeSpeed), he is most definitely the premier DD user.

Salamence is a close second. With most Mence being the Choice Scarf variant in the past few months, DDMence is both powerful and unexpected in this metagame. With a Jolly Nature, one DD lets it outspeed the feared Scarf Genesect, which most teams rely on to do all the revenge killing. Mence wrecks it with a Fire Blast. Not only that, Moxie access basically assures that once Mence gets its first KO, the second and third will follow quickly. Earthquake is nice coverage and smashes the omnipresent Jirachi. As an aside, Hydro Pump in the Rain wrecks Gliscor, a normally solid check to Mence.

Gyarados is third, because once Rotom-W and Ferrothorn are out of the way, this thing sweeps. Like Mence, it also has Moxie, which deters the opponent from saccing Pokes to it because of the Attack boost Gyarados gains from the sacrifice. In Rain, a +1 Waterfall beats most anything that doesn't resist it, even doing well over 50% to defensive Skarmory. Earthquake and Stone Edge make for great coverage, with Ice Fang as a secondary option to hit those Grass types hard. Options in Substitute and Bounce increase its versatility, allowing it to perform a variety of roles on a team, as well as set up easier.

Haxorus is a beast, no doubt about it, but it's relatively frail and easily revenge-killed. Its disappointing base 97 Speed means even at +1, it falls short of outspeeding its eternal rival, Genesect, as well as Scarf Mence, Hydreigon, and Keldeo, among others. However, it's the best DD user when it comes to raw power. Base Attack of 147 is absurdly strong, and BW2 was nice to Haxorus; not only does it have access to Outrage and Earthquake, but it has now received both Superpower and Aqua Tail to add to its destructive power. It can be tough to set up, but if you somehow manage to achieve +2 Haxorus, game over.

Scrafty is a boss who knows no limits. Unfortunately, Tornadus-T takes a dump on its life, as even at +1 it doesn't outspeed and is OHKO'd by Hurricane 100% of the time. However, it's a very strong Pokemon in terms of defense, and setting up a DD is generally pretty simple. Once that's done, excellent Fighting/Dark/Ice coverage lets it tear through teams with ease. Drain Punch keeps it alive for a long time, Crunch is great STAB, and Ice Punch beats Gliscor all day long. Not as good as the top 4 DDancers, but worth a shot.

Latios has exactly one use as a Dragon Dancer, and that is surprise factor. Nobody expects a DD Latios, they're all either Specs, Scarf, or LO these days. However, its surprise value isn't enough to make it a good DD user. Base 90 Attack is extremely underwhelming compared to the 130+ of Dnite, Mence, and Haxorus. Granted, it still has access to Outrage and Earthquake, but they're better used on one of the top 4 DDancers that I listed. Draco Meteor is interesting, as it demolishes some common physical walls like Gliscor and Slowbro, but it's easy to see coming and not really worth it in the long run.

Tyranitar is trash in this metagame. Scizor and Breloom are on literally every other team, and with both of their priority attacks (Bullet Punch and Mach Punch respectively) OHKOing DDTar, there's a reason it isn't used much. Tornadus-T outspeeds Jolly max Speed +1 DDTar and OHKOs with Focus Blast or Superpower, so it has that to contend with as well. EdgeQuake is underwhelming in a metagame which boasts so many great offensive threats, and Terrakion does it better anyways.

Kingdra really sucks for one reason, that reason being that Ferrothorn, its #1 hard counter, is #3 in the usage stats. That's a recipe for disaster. Despite the prevalence of Rain, which doubles Kingdra's Speed for free, DD Kingdra simply does not pack enough punch to break through most of the premier defensive walls, and with two-move coverage, it's often hung out to dry by things like Slowbro and Jellicent. Really not worth your time unless you're carrying Magnezone and Gothitelle alongside it.

Well, that was a long-winded post, but I hope most of you can understand now why I put the various Dragon Dancers where I put them.
 
I would like to reorder this list:

Dragonite > Salamence > Gyarados > Haxorus > Scrafty > Latios > Tyranitar > Kingdra

Dragonite deserves more love than Mence because he's been the staple DDancer for about eight months now and he's not leaving anytime soon. With a plethora of options before him (Offensive DD, Bulky DD, SubDD), as well as an extremely varied attack pool (Outrage, Dragon Claw, Fire Punch, Earthquake, Waterfall, ExtremeSpeed), he is most definitely the premier DD user.

Salamence is a close second. With most Mence being the Choice Scarf variant in the past few months, DDMence is both powerful and unexpected in this metagame. With a Jolly Nature, one DD lets it outspeed the feared Scarf Genesect, which most teams rely on to do all the revenge killing. Mence wrecks it with a Fire Blast. Not only that, Moxie access basically assures that once Mence gets its first KO, the second and third will follow quickly. Earthquake is nice coverage and smashes the omnipresent Jirachi. As an aside, Hydro Pump in the Rain wrecks Gliscor, a normally solid check to Mence.

I completely agree with your order there, I too would put Dragonite as the number one DD user, but not by a lot. A lot of people have been saying that Dragonite isn't because he gets murdered by Ice attacks, if Dragonite gets murdered, Mence gets decimated. A standard DD Mence at 100% health will die to a Jolly LO Mamoswine's Ice Shard 100% of the time, so there is absolutely nothing Mence can do against it. Dragonite also takes quite a lot of damage, although it can do something against Mamo. If using a fairly standard DD Dragonite with a Jolly nature and 200 HP EVs, give or take a few depending on preference, with Multiscale Dragonite takes 48.25 - 57.9% from exactly the same attack. On that turn, Dragonite could set up a DD. The next turn Dragonite would be well within KO range for another Ice Shard, and Mamo would be on 90% HP at best, provided no rocks or prior damage/attacks. Dragonite could then deal 38.67 - 45.58% with a +1 Extremespeed with 56 ATK EVs, once again shift to suit. So while a 90% Mamo laughs at that and then KOs, a weakened Mamo would lose to Dragonite in that situation.

In regards to Mence having access to Fire Blast to deal with Skarmory, while it does mean that Mence can easily deal with Skarmory without the fear of having all his boosts lost due to a Whirlwind, if Dragonite is the last member of the team he can also adequately deal with Skarm. Or alternatively if he already has a few boosts up, he can also deal with it. A +1 Fire Punch from the same 56 ATK EV Dragonite deals 37.12 - 44.31% to 252/252 Impish Skarm, which is a guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers. Now if Dragonite had accumulated say 2 or 3 DDs, it could be doing 49.7 - 58.68% at +2 or even 61.67 - 73.05% at +3. Realistically getting to +3 isn't particularly easy, although once Dragonite gets going it is hard to stop, especially if your opponent doesn't have a Mamo, or if its already down. Once again though, no mon should be expcted to take on the entire opponents team by themselves, so give Dragonite the support it needs to comfortably take out Skarmory, and at least weaken any Mamoswines running around, and sweeping becomes very easy. The same goes for Mence, although I have found it a lot harder to stack up Multiple DDs using a Mence, which means that you are vulnerable to more Revenge kills by faster Scarfers and priority. Although the Moxie boosts to help you deal a lot of damage.
 
I agree with PK Gamings list.

Seriously, outspeeding scarf Genesect IS that big of a deal; also the reason Sally gets my #1. Just because Dragonite was the best DDer for all of gen 5 doesn't mean it's the best now.
 
Gyarados: Sub Gyardos is the best, why?

It has probably the best stabs for offense. With bounce and waterfall in the rain you have an outrage strength attack that doesn't lock you in and stab that is only resisted by Rotom Wash.

Defenses: Gyardos has access to intimidate, which already technically gives Gyardos 1.5 defense boost and it has a nice 100 base special defense. It's typing is really great too.

Here are some of the common Pokes that it can set up on:
Gastrodon
Politoad
Physical Jirachi
Gliscor
Amongus
Techniloom without Thunderpunch
Jellicent
etc..

Gyarados is the only Dragon Dancer that I can consistently get more than 2 Dragon Dances.

Dragonite: Second best Dancing all thanks to Multiscale.

I generally see Dragon Dance Dragonite as a lead or just a rampage. Dragon Dance and then Kill something and then get killed. It will always bring at least one pokemon down if it gets a dance, but sweeping with it is hard unless your opponent is a noob and let you dragon dance a bunch of times. Dragonite does have troubles after Rocks are up mid game and it loses it capabilities.



Haxorus: For Haxorus, the best Set in my opinion, includes both Dragon Dance and Swords Dance. Always run adament, since therre really nothing Jolly outspeeds. Superpower is rather pointless. Earthquake kill most things that Superpower kills without weakening Haxorus and Superpower also defeats the purpose of setting up. +2 Outrage with LO will always 2HKO Ferrothorn, skarmory, forretress (survives due to leftovers), and any defensive Jirachi so if you feel a steel is come your way, Swords Dance. Dragon dance is for non scarfed offensive teams.



Salamence Not a very good dancer anymore. The scarf is the only menacing set now. Salamence is just too weak to take hits. With so much priority these days and fast scarfers, Salamence will need perfect health and multiples dances for sweep. Salamence just cannot Dance in this metagame.


Kingdra Kingdras alright, as a counter to rain. Its simply too weak for a rain team. Gyarados can switch into Ferrothorn sub on it and 2HKO with +2 waterfall while Kingdra can't even touch ferrothorn.


Scrapy Too slow and it has weakness to some of the most powerful attacks, Close Combat and Hurricane.

Tyranitar Not only is it super slow, but his stabs are shit





I think Moxie should never be used over intimidate in a dance set. If you want to set, you have two ways: one is to predict and suffer hard if it's a misprediction or to switch in on something that can't do much to you. Intimidate only helps. Chances are good players will have something to either revenge kill or some way to kill off Salamence so moxie doesn't do much there. Intimidate is just help more times than Moxie is.
 
I think Moxie should never be used over intimidate in a choice set. If you want to set, you have two ways: one is to predict and suffer hard if it's a misprediction or to switch in on something that can't do much to you. Intimidate only helps. Chances are good players will have something to either revenge kill or some way to kill off Salamence so moxie doesn't do much there. Intimidate is just help more times than Moxie is.

Excuse me if I'm being ignorant, but Choice Scarf + Moxie has become widely accepted as one of Salamence's best sets as far as I'm aware. If you remove its counters early on, it can be a very difficult threat to stop due to its usable speed and the offensive presence of Outrage. The snowballing effect of Moxie can make for a clean sweep late game. I'm not saying that Intimidate doesn't have its uses, but I have found that I highly prefer Moxie on the Choice Scarf set for the pressure it places on the opponent, especially late game.

I'm sorry that was a bit off topic. For what it's worth, I like Lavos' list; he provides some solid reasoning that I agree with for the most part. I think some of it is up for debate, and I'm glad that's being discussed in this thread.
 
When it comes to Dragon Dancers, personally I would go as far as to say Salamence is actually better than Dragonite. Whenever I used Dragonite, I simply found it to be too weak at +1, especially considering Multiscale completely discourages use of a Life Orb. Plus, let's face it, Dragonite is only sweeping if your opponent is a complete idiot and does something dumb like: Sacrifice Mamoswine/Genesect/etc, make it really easy for Dragonite to set up more than one Dragon Dance, or don't even pack a way of beating Dragonite in the first place. Let's face it, take Multiscale out of the equation by simply attacking Dragonite and its only niche over Salamence is gone. Don't forget about Genesect:

Dragonite: Revenge killed once Multiscale's gone, a very common reality.

Salamence: If any Genesect user is moronic enough to directly switch Genesect into Mence, +1 Mence outspeeds and OHKOes with Fire Blast. If Salamence has +2, it always OHKOes Genesect after SR with Life Orb and doesn't need a whole lot of prior damage to OHKO it with Lum Berry. +2 non-LO Outrage does 74.2 - 87.63% to 0/0 Naive Genesect, so it shouldn't be too hard to get Genesect into the killzone.

Which matchup sounds better? Especially considering Genesect is pretty much the metagame right now.

Oh yeah, did I mention that Salamence can afford to run Life Orb? It doesn't have Multiscale to worry about anyway, so don't bother with bulk. Plus, from my experience in this meta, Stealth Rock + Genesect/Mamoswine everywhere means Dragonite doesn't get much out of its bulk anyway (you have to pull off a successful Rapid Spin or else you're 100% screwed and pretty much using an inferior Salamence with less speed). Honestly, the best use I got out of Dragonite was a Choice Band set. Of course, I found that Dragonite basically just set up, lost Multiscale, killed something, then got killed, while I've pulled off far more Salamence sweeps just because it's faster than Genesect and overall harder to switch into than Dragonite. So I'm probably pretty biased here.

As for other Dragon Dancers, Gyarados is pretty kickass in rain, and additionally it resists Bullet Punch and isn't weak to Ice Shard, unlike Dragonite/Salamence. Scrafty is pretty mediocre in my opinion (and DD + Moxie Scrafty is outclassed by Gyarados and Salamence) and 90 base Attack is pretty bad, plus that Fighting weakness is pretty nasty. However, maybe a Shed Skin DD set has a small niche, but Scrafty still isn't that good. Scrafty + Everything else is pretty bad with a DD set in my opinion, especially Kingdra/T-tar (Kingdra is walled to death by Ferrothorn and is weak without boosts, T-tar is weak to Bullet Punch AND Mach Punch!). Haxorus isn't that good for reasons PK Gaming already explained. Latios is just.... no.

Overall, my list would probably be something like Salamence > Gyarados > Dragonite > Haxorus (I only put Gyarados before Dragonite because it's less priority weak, but that's personal preference I guess), and then everything else with DD is just not really worth mentioning in my opinion due to either being outclassed or bad.
 
@nygerman:just that i feel most of your points are invalid.Gyarados has inferior move coverage than Mence and Dnite.It is walled by Skarmory,Ferrothorn,Volt switch Forretress,and bulky waters.It's good defensive typing and protection from most priority attacks are perhaps it's only advantage.Dnite outclasses it as a defensive Dancer while mence outclasses it as more offensive powerhouse with the advantage of Moxie and the ability to outspeed genesect.

One thing I noticed is a most people(including me) are only posting about "who is the best dancer" which will (although being very exciting) never come to a satisfactory general conclusion and is missing this part.

How are they different? What role does each have to play in a team? Is there any particular partners or combinations you use with your Dragon Dancers? And most importantly, how do you set up your dancers?

The first two questions have already been answered.I'll start with the 3rd one.In my teams,I found SD double priority Lucario to be an excellent partner for DDmence as he can set up on most of mence's revenge killers.Since they'll likely be locked in resisted move for Lucario.Examples: CBScizor's bullet punch,Scarf terrakion's stone edge,scarf Latios's Draco meteor,Scarf Keldeo's HP Ice,scarf Landorus's stone edge/HP ice,scarf thundurus t's HP ice only missing out non choice locked Mamo and scarf thundurus-t's Thunder.We all know what kind of menace a +2 Lucario is,especially with hazard support from Deo-D.

As for Dragonite,I usually use it with a fast lead that can prevent SR from getting up like taunt users such as Deo-D,Infernape,Azelf etc.Then quickly send it out before opponent lays SR and start sweeping to gain offensive momentum early game to help other sweepers. I never really used it as a main sweeper,rather part of an offensive core with the likes of Keldeo,Rock Polish genesect and Terrakion with scarfmoxiemence for cleaning.

I rarely used Gyarados or Haxorus,but Double dance Haxorus worked really well under dual screen support,with it's advantage of not having the 4x ice weakness like Mence or Dnite.
 
SubDD Gyarados is actually pretty good at taking on Bulky Waters imo, although some people do run HP Electric which is troublesome for him.

As far as Best DD in the metagame, I don't think there really is one. It really depends on what fits best with the rest of your team, to be honest.
 
How are you guys forgetting DD HydraRest Whiscash!? Decent bulk, full recovery and status immunity in Rain, nice typing. I actually swept quite a few teams with this back in the day, just remove the Grass types and any ridiculously powerful attacker which resists Water and you win.

Seriously, the derpfish is pretty terribad, but if you really want to make people ragequit Whiscash is how you do it.

As to the main discussion, Dragonite either runs Extremespeed or it's outclassed in this meta by Mencey. ESpeed is a useful defensive tool and gives it a way around (weakened) Mamoswine and (extremely weakened; practically dead) Genesect. Gyarados is pretty great and needs more usage, although I prefer the DD RestTalk set.
 
Tyranitar Not only is it super slow, but his stabs are shit

Tyranitar may be the worst DDer, but it's STABs are pretty good and its coverage moves are even better, the problem is that its tipying is bad defensively. Speaking of its tipying it's the main reason why Tyranitar doesn't make a good DDer; weakness to common priority moves, Water attacks, U-Turn, etc. Its speed compounds the problem however.

About the Salamence x Dragonite question, I think that neither is better than other. Each have its advantages, so pick up what you prefer. Dragonite is harder to revenge kill because of Multiscale, but with the widespread use of Stealth Rock and Sandstorm, it may be not that hard to revenge kill. Salamence however can outspeed more things than Dragonite and due to Fire Blast it is not walled by Skarmory, although it needs sun support or a little prior damage to OHKO Skarmory.

Pick up what you prefer: more power and speed, or survivability.
 
But most things that Salamence want to hit with Fire Blast are weak on the special side, such as Skarmory. Acess to a physical Fire move is not really an advantage if you consider this.

252Atk Choice Band Dragonite (+Atk) Fire Punch vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Sturdy Skarmory (+Def): 47% - 55% (158 - 186 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 9% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.

4SpAtk Salamence (Neutral) Fire Blast vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Sturdy Skarmory (Neutral): 75% - 89% (252 - 298 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.


You're perfectly right on that; however, Fire Punch has a little advantage over Fire Blast in reliability. Skarmory can't come in two times while DNite DDances and Whirlwind, tanking two Fire Punches, while it can do so 15% of the times with Mence. Sure, this is a minor point, but still.

I completely agree with Lavos' considerations. He explained his reasoning between that list very carefully and in-depth, so I don't think I have anything to add.
 
While the title of the best user of Dragon Dance is very subjective, I think there are some Dragon Dancers that are very underrated. While people think Salamence and Dragonite are the best users of Dragon Dance, my favourite is probably Gyarados. Dragon Dance Gyarados is probably the most potent sweeper when utilizing a Dragon Dance, it's incredibly hard to stop once it gets a free Substitute or Dragon Dance and you can't even send in something to fodder for a free switch, as Gyarados can easily capitalize on it with another Dragon Dance and use your fodder as an extra Attack boost from Moxie. Given how common Rain is, Gyarados benefits from this amazingly, being able to actually break through it's counters such as Skarmory and Ferrothorn. It's also surprising how little some teams have for Gyarados. At most, they might have one of either Rotom-W, Ferrothorn or Skarmory to deal with it, which under Rain, none of which are 100% reliable. Ferrothorn and Skarmory have to compete with flinches, while the best they can do is hope to phase out Gyarados, which isn't stopping it from coming back in and setting up. Even Taunt would be viable on DD Gyarados in this metagame, to shut down Skarmory and such hoping to wall Gyarados as it boosts up. Rotom-W cannot compete either, it's very unlikely it'll switch in at the same time as Gyarados as Gyara baits an easy Rotom-W switch. This means Gyarados gets a free Substitute as it switches in. If Rotom-W doesn't have Thunderbolt, it is no longer a reliable answer to Gyarados. Sure, it can Volt Switch out but that's only breaking Gyarados's Substitute, and isn't stopping it from setting up. From there, Rotom-W has to fear switching into a faster +1 / +2 / +3 attack Gyarados, who is going to be able to break through Rotom-W. Even when Gyarados is at +1 or +2, it's still incredibly hard to revenge. I've found that Genesect with Thunderbolt isn't the norm from using Gyarados on the PS ladder, and a lot of well-built teams had such a difficult time playing against Sub DD Gyara. A combination of good typing and good bulk means it has no trouble setting up against some of the threats people have already mentioned before me, such as Politoed, Jellicent, Chansey and more. Unlike Dragonite and Salamence, Gyarados isn't weak to priority and can shrug off Ice Shard and Bullet Punch with ease. If you're running a set with Intimidate, you have an even easier time setting up.

As for the Hydration Dragon Dancers (Whiscash, Lapras, etc) they're certainly hard to play around if you lack a Grass type or something hitting hard enough to get past continuous Rests. I'd definitely agree Whiscash is the better of the two, Lapras lacks power even after multiple boosts and is still pretty easily shut down. There's no doubt it can work, but the team support needed to make that happen isn't worth it, as often you'll set up for a sweep and you'll find yourself unable to break through certain 'mons. I also think Kingdra needs more love. It's pretty similar to Gyarados, but without the extra HP or Intimidate it has a harder time setting up successfully. This is kind of compensated by Swift Swim, as in Rain you outspeed pretty much everything after a Dragon Dance. The main problem here is that Kingdra has a much harder time breaking through it's counters. Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Skarmory are still beating Kingdra after a couple Dragon Dances, which means you will need some team support to make Kingdra work successfully. Kingdra also has that nice Dragon STAB that Gyarados doesn't meaning Kingdra does not have to rely on a weak Ice Fang or Bounce to hit Dragons for some damage.

tl;dr Gyara needs more love >:(
 
I agree that Dragonite is the best Dragon Dancer.

Genesect is a poor argument against Dragonite being #1. Genesect does not get a SpAtk boost upon switching in to D-Nite, and even at +1 SpAtk, it doesn't even come close to guaranteeing a OHKO on Dragonite with Ice Beam. +1 Gene has only an 44% chance for a OHKO on 0/0 Dragonite. 96 HP EVs is all Dragonite needs to avoid any chance of an OHKO. Nite can just DD in Genesect's face if it switches in. If you are relying on Genesect to counter/revenge Dragonite, you'd better keep Stealth Rock up.

Also, just saying, Dragonite has access to Fire Blast as well, and 100 SpAtk to use it with. Guaranteed 2HKO on Skarm and Ferro too. I assume the reason it's not used is due to the accuracy.

Gyarados is pretty scary too, with or without Moxie.
 
I've never been a fan of Dragon Dance this gen - it's users are crippled by all forms of status, are outsped and revenged by all of the common Scarfers (sans Genesect vs Mence) and potentially Chloropyhll-users and there's too much priority out there. Plus there's just so many ways to hit hard-as-hell this gen without wasting a turn by boosting (I'm thinking stuff like Moxie, weather-boosts and Elemental Gems) that I can usually think of better ways to utilise a Dragon.

Dragonite is the best user in my eyes though if only for the general utility that Multiscale brings to a team, the ease of setting up, and Extremespeed alleviates some of the priority problems that other users suffer. If you're scared of Gene and Mamo then just use Yache Berry (Ice Beam does around 65% and LO Ice Shard does even less).
 
It scares me that SubDD Gyarados is the DD set I've had the most success with in this metagame.
It just goes around and wrecks shit. So few seem prepared for it.
 
I think that the usage stats and the moveset stats prove that Dragonite is the best DDer. Dragonite is used on 17.4% of all teams, while Salamence on 11.45% of all teams. Also Dragonite uses DD on 53% of its sets, while Salamence uses DD on 43% of its sets. This means that DD Dragonite is used on 9.2% of the teams, and DD Salamence is used on 5% of the teams. So DDnite has almost double the usage of DDMence.

I know that usage alone is not everything, but in this situation i think they mean a lot. If you give Dragonite the support he needs, Rapid Spin, he will almost guaranteed get one Dragon Dance. Salamence cannot do this. Dragonite can also be useful as a last minute check against powerful threats that could otherwise sweep through your team, such as Volcarona, Venusaur, Tornadus-T and more. DDMence cannot do this. And finally we have Extremespeed, which coupled with LO, at +1, destroys many common checks to DD dragons, such as Scarf Latios, Weavile and Mamoswine, which wreck Salamence if they come in safely. I saw someone saying that DD Dragonite cannot use Life Orb effectively because then he cannot abuse Multiscale, and i cannot stress enough how wrong this is. Life Orb is a perfectly viable option on DDnite because Dragonite is supposed to take a hit, set-up and then wreck. Most status users are afraid to status Dragonite anyway, because most DDnite carry Lum Berry, so attacking him straight away is your best option. And a +1 LO Dnite is indeed scary.

Sure DDMence is stronger and faster, BUT he sets up wayyyy harder, which is pretty damn important, does not have priority, and cannot act as a check to faster offensive threats, which is why i think that DD Dragonite is the best Dragon Dancer in OU.
 
I don't think stats have ever been a good way to determine if something is better. Electrive shouldn't have been OU last gen because it isn't good, but it was. Dragonite isn't a better DDer than Mence but it's used more. Also I hate when people bring up Multiscale, are you people not setting down SR or something? Jesus
 
LO Dragonite might be viable, but it's stupid. Once you attack, it removes Dragonite's sole niche (Multiscale), only making it easier for things like Genesect to revenge kill you. Would you rather be able to potentially keep Multiscale for multiple turns, or, on average, never keep it for more than one turn? Peronsally, I'd rather use something that outspeeds and beats Scarf Genesect instead of something that merely gets revenge killed by it once Multiscale is gone.

Anyway, I'd just like to say that even +1 ExtremeSpeed is pretty damn weak:

vs Latios: 58.6 - 69.2%
vs Mamoswine: 48.89 - 57.73%
vs Weavile: 71.82 - 84.53%
vs Naive Salamence: 53.47 - 63.14%
vs Hasty Salamence: 59.51 - 70.09%

(These calcs are not with Life Orb because I'm not going to recognize LO Dragonite as a thing)

Alright, hold on a minute. ExtremeSpeed never KOs Hasty Salamence at +1 after Stealth Rock. And if Stealth Rock is not on the field, Weavile avoids the OHKO from +1 ExtremeSpeed! Yep, something as frail as Weavile dodges the OHKO. Pretty sad if you ask me.

So, the way I see it, Dragonite still loses to Mamoswine and Scarf Latios, and potentially loses to Weavile too. As for Salamence, outspeeding Genesect at +1 is just too big to pass up.

Genesect is a poor argument against Dragonite being #1

I cannot stress enough how much I disagree with this statement. First, Genesect is absolutely everywhere, so in my eyes, Genesect alone is a good argument against anything being "the best". Also, you would have to be pretty damn stupid to actually try to revenge kill Dragonite without breaking Multiscale first. Genesect is perfectly fine at revenge killing Dragonite, but not Salamence. Also, as I already stated, on average, Dragonite still loses to pretty much everything that Salamence loses to, while, hey, Salamence beats Genesect!

Also, I saw someone else say something like "if you're that scared of Genesect and Mamo then just run Yache Berry" for Dragonite, but you do know that you can make that argument for Salamence too, right? And yes, I've seen YacheMence used before, it's actually pretty good for stopping Mamoswine from revenge killing you.
 
I'd have to say: Dragonite and Mence are definetly the top two; it's hard to pick between the two but, it can be done.
I'd say that on rain teams if you need a dd'r you certainly should go with Dragonite; it can viably run a set with waterfall > fire punch (or aqua tail), has the recovery that rain stall teams base themselves around, and with a few reliable rain spinners like tentacruel floating around the metagame it can preserve multiscale and efficiently sweep through unprepared opponents with ease!
On the other hand, they both work well on sun teams because fire blast/fire punch (or the rare fire fang mence) have their coverage moves boosted enabeling them to ohko: ferrothorn, foretress, skarmory (with f-blast), magnezone, metagross(f-blast), and other steels that resist their dragon (and flying lol) stabs.
Being that this meagame revolves around weather I couldn't leave out the likely most common weather, sand.
On sand teams, I preffer mence because it is a bit more offensive, as Dragonite has more bulk so it can keep the momentum on volturn teams high and it has a bigger damage output with the possibility of running life orb (if not lum berry which is more common) and it has a higher attack stat (by a whole one point, 135 > 134.)

If you're looking at this subject from a less specific viewpoint, then I believe that on more bulky/stallish teams (weatherless balanced, weatherless stall, balanced weather teams, weather (likely rain/sand) stall teams) dragonite is overall a better fit because it can use roost more effectively. On the other hand, mence is a better choice on offensive teams (deo-d teams, drag/mags, HO weatherless, offensive weather teams, etc.) due to it's ability to use both attacking stats and its higher speed stat.

In conclusion, the two best dragon dancers are Dragonite and Salemence; the choice for the better one is yours. Choose wisely.
Following those two I'd say it goes: G-dos > Haxorus (cb haxorus is god) > Kingdra (specs kingdra is godly) > Scrafty > Tyranitar (stick to specially defensive) > Latio(a)s (stick to being special attackers) > Charizard (STEALTH ROCKS) > Smeargle (lol)


note: GARCHOMP NEEDS DRAGON DANCE, PLEASE GAME FREAK!!!!!!!
 
Also, you would have to be pretty damn stupid to actually try to revenge kill Dragonite without breaking Multiscale first. Genesect is perfectly fine at revenge killing Dragonite, but not Salamence. Also, as I already stated, on average, Dragonite still loses to pretty much everything that Salamence loses to, while, hey, Salamence beats Genesect!

That argument works both ways. Dragonite is commonly run with a spinner for the purpose of keeping Multiscale intact. Genesect can't revenge Dragonite if your rocks get spun away. To break Multiscale in that case, you have to sack something faster, which is in my view a big plus for Dragonite.

Dragonite has many more set up opportunities than Salamence, and as shown by other posters, Dragonite survives many things that Salamence can't because of superior bulk and Multiscale. That Dragonite can DD in Genesect's face while Multiscale is intact is huge.

I would prefer to use Salamence on a sand team, but otherwise, Dragonite would be my choice.

Edit: But then again I'd use Scarf Mence, not DD Mence. Who is Salamence going to set up on? Practically every Pokemon in the metagame can at least cripple him. That is what really makes Dragonite the superior DD user.
 
I don't think stats have ever been a good way to determine if something is better. Electrive shouldn't have been OU last gen because it isn't good, but it was. Dragonite isn't a better DDer than Mence but it's used more. Also I hate when people bring up Multiscale, are you people not setting down SR or something? Jesus
Stats alone are not a good enough to determine if something is better than something else, but they are a sure a strong indicator.

You say that Mence is a better DDer without giving a single reason.

Finally you say that SR can be put to remove MS, and i say that good players use Dnite with Rapid Spin support, or ways to prevent SR, such as Taunt suicide leads, Magic Bounce pokes, etc.

@Lucaroark Z

I can't follow you with your reasoning of LO being bad on Dnite at all... When people see Dnite they do one of those things, assuming MS is active:

1. Hit to break MS, let poke die, and then bring in revenge killer
2. Status Dragonite, but people rarely try this, because many Dragonite carry Lum Berry or Sub
3. Switch into a wall that can take a hit and then break MS or phaze. If it can't phaze and can only hit to break MS and gets 2HKOed from a +1 Dnite, then let the wall die and then revenge kill.

So as you can see the most common way to deal with Dragonite is to hit him to break MS. So you use Dragon Dance as they break MS, and then attack. So how does LO prevent MS from working? The only way that LO breaks your own MS is when you must hit a physical wall that can phaze you, meaning Hippowdon and Skarmory. But LO can be argued to be more useful than Lum Berry against those pokes, because even though it means that you waste MS, after you hit them once at +1 they can't actually wall you again, which is not the case with Lum Berry Dnite, which can't 2HKO physically defensive Skarmory and Hippo, so they can counter you for ever, unlike LO Dnite.

tl;dr LO works just as good as Lum Berry on Dnite, and many times even better. For example with a +1 ES you can 2HKO Scarf Latios after 2 SR switch-ins (76.15 - 89.73%), ohko Weavile w/o SR most of the times (93.12 - 109.62%), OHKO Naive ScarfMence 50% of the times after SR (69.48 - 81.87%), and OHKO a slightly weakened Mamo (63.53 - 74.86%), while you are also able to 2HKO pokes that could wall you before such as Skarmory and Hippo. Not bad huh? So don't dismiss it until you actually now how it is played and how it works.

EDIT: And something else i completely forgot about. Dragonite can run 2 perfectly viable and destructive DD sets (3 if you count 2 attacks + Roost), that have different counters, while Mence has only one. This means that usually DD Mence is easier to play around, because once he uses DD you know what to expect, unlike with Dnite (you can understand sometimes if the opposing Dnite is an offensive one or a SubDD variant, from the teams playstyle, but not always).
 
Excuse me if I'm being ignorant, but Choice Scarf + Moxie has become widely accepted as one of Salamence's best sets as far as I'm aware. If you remove its counters early on, it can be a very difficult threat to stop due to its usable speed and the offensive presence of Outrage. The snowballing effect of Moxie can make for a clean sweep late game. I'm not saying that Intimidate doesn't have its uses, but I have found that I highly prefer Moxie on the Choice Scarf set for the pressure it places on the opponent, especially late game.

I'm sorry that was a bit off topic. For what it's worth, I like Lavos' list; he provides some solid reasoning that I agree with for the most part. I think some of it is up for debate, and I'm glad that's being discussed in this thread.
My mistake I meant dragon dance not choice scarf




Gyarados is not getting walled by anything.

Waterfall in the Rain 2hkos Skarmory and Ferrothorn. Gyarados has better typing and defense.





Tyranitar is a bad dancer primarily because of his weak stabs, not priority weakness.

The one thing a dragon dancer needs is the ability to kills things neutral after one dance. Salamence and Dragonite have outrage is which is only resisted by one type in the game. Gyarados has an immensely powerfal rain boosted waterfall. Tyranitar is stuck with crunch and stone edge.

Tyranitar, even after a Dance cannot kill things that resist its stabs or have high defense.

Salamence, after a dragon dance is guareenteed a kill while if something like Machamp comes in on Tyranitar, Ttar is dead
 
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