Drawing Mohammed

[mirza]

UncleSam it isn't a religion that's getting pissed off over this it's a bunch of nutjobs with extreme religious views.

You're making it sound as if some religion is running around killing cartoonists in rage...lol

The reason I wouldn't draw pictures of Muhammad has nothing to do with the religion itself. It has to do with the crazy motherfuckers who actually act out their threats.

We have them here in the US too, the KKK, Lone Wolves, among other racist/fundamental groups. It's just that they're supressed here and no one really takes them seriously.

Another thing is that some people are drawing pics of Muhammad to express their liberty while others are doing it to be douchebags. When you draw a picture of Jesus driving an Escalade I'm sure most people find it funny...when you draw him with balls on his face I'm sure a couple of people will get pretty fucking annoyed. It's just that they're not crazy enough to go blow up some shit.

Also, the Kur'an, Torah, and the Bible ALL promote violence against people who disagree with their teachings. It's just that one has a large enough group of extremists who just don't give a fuck and will do whatever they have to for their faith.

 

[afterburn]

Why is it Islam? Why isn't it what people do in the name of Islam that you guys should be talking about

Islam is a mild and peaceful religion, but people are taking it to the extreme. Blowing up themselves in public places, making death threats to anyone who makes fun at their prophet, are some examples of bullshit people make in the name of Islam. Death threats should be replaced by calm debates.(wow de javu) Blowing up your self? Hey, calling all emo Muslims! (meant to be said with a joking tone)

And I have to agree with TheLegendKiller, innocent people are being killed everyday here in Arabia. Remember last year, I think, when Gaza was brutally bombed EVERYDAY. Little babies who were not even 3 months old died. Lots of people lost everything. And for what? "Taking out terrorists' cells". Thank you, stupid people who make life worse EVERYDAY for Muslims.

And on another note, terrorism has no religion. No religion I have ever read about says "you must kill all infidels".

Read this- http://www.jfednepa.org/mark silverberg/origins.html
And tell me what you think about Islam.

Firstly, no need to to call anyone 'stupid', as this is a discussion thread, and we discuss like mature humans.

Secondly, its true, Islam doesn't ask you to annihilate anyone who pisses on your religion, AND TERRORIZE AND INTIMIDATE, BOMB THEM, COMMIT SUICUDE. Hell, killing innocent people who have nothing to do with the situation (in this case drawing Prophet Mohammed"), is what a Muslim isn't meant to be doing. Unfortunately, there are some of us who like to take the different route, instead of just keeping the rage within them and brushing it off. These people don't have much intelligence in the field of their own religion. They've given their own people a bad name. Now whenever you see a random guy walking down the street with a big bushy beard, and a turban, your immediate thought is that the guy is going to yell: "ALLAHUAKBAR" and explode the people around him into ashes. In Islam you're not even meant to attack women or children. The only time you're actually meant to send out an attack is on the battlefield, which is what we don't have these days. A group of people attack innocent people of the other group, and the other group does the same.

 

[WeGotTheJazz]

I gotta side with Empoleon on this. That's a pretty inconsiderate thing to say WeGotJazz.

Sorry if I came across as a dick, but praying 5 times a day is arguably the most important part of Islam. Not doing so is not being a free-thinking Muslim, it is outright disobeying Islam.

This is why although I was born a Muslim I don't consider myself to be one anymore (see you in Hell Empoleon - kidding kidding).

 

[Adm. Empoleon]

This is why although I was born a Muslim I don't consider myself to be one anymore.

You just summed up my life. :)

And I already made reservations for my stay in Hell, haha.

 

[cantab]

But here's the question, Why would you be doing it in the first place? Are you trying to show off your artistic skills? Are you trying to show you have the ability to draw a human being? Why wouldn't you just not interfere with a religion's laws, and just let it be?

The cartoons in the Danish paper were, like most newspaper cartoons, intended to make points or provoke thought. Exactly what point is being made is often left deliberately ambigious.

The reason I wouldn't draw pictures of Muhammad has nothing to do with the religion itself. It has to do with the crazy motherfuckers who actually act out their threats.

In other words, you allow yourself to be intimidated by others.

And the whole reason behind it being everybody draw Mohammed day is that extremist nutjobs can hardly go attacking everybody. It's the same reasoning as behind strikes.

Oh, and the conflict in Palestine/Israel is not relevant to this thread.

Now whenever you see a random guy walking down the street with a big bushy beard, and a turban, your immediate thought is that the guy is going to yell: "ALLAHUAKBAR" and explode the people around him into ashes.

I, perhaps unlike many people, have a clue, and know that a turban is a rare item for Muslims to wear. Also with the overwhelming majority of people living in my area being Muslim, and the number of bombings since WWII ended standing at zero to my knowledge, I'm not expecting any terrorist attacks any time soon.

 

[vonFiedler]

Sorry if I came across as a dick, but praying 5 times a day is arguably the most important part of Islam.

Arguably as important as Christian going to Church on Sundays. But I know even baptists who prescribe to the "I worship in my way" mantra.

 

[mirza]

In other words, you allow yourself to be intimidated by others.

And the whole reason behind it being everybody draw Mohammed day is that extremist nutjobs can hardly go attacking everybody. It's the same reasoning as behind strikes.

There's not a man alive that can intimidate me...call it arrogant I really do not give a damn..

There's a difference between being a little bitch and wanting to enjoy your life and spend it doing the things you love to do with the people you love. These people will kill you given the opportunity.


..And seeing as you like to play internet tough guy and call others out, why don't you go express your freedom to draw Muhammad in the middle of Saudi Arabia and get back to me once you're done. Anyone can do that thousands of miles away but since you like to piss off a bunch of nutjobs, why don't you go find them and show them how unintimidated you are with their threats.

Psst I grew up Muslim. In a very traditional home. You're not going to tell me anything I don't already know about these loonies.


Sorry if this is going off topic.

 

[cantab]

Obviously it's a matter that opinions will differ on, but I believe most people identify with a religion based on their beliefs, not their actions. The most important thing for a Muslim is surely to believe the Shahada. Adm.Empoleon is by his own admission "too lazy" to pray 5 times daily, but I expect he recognises that that is something he is 'supposed' to do.

Corresponding to that, most religions stress the importance of belief in their deities. In Christianity sin - disobeying the teachinins - is tolerated, but heresy - questioning the teachings - has historically resulted in severe punishment.

And seeing as you like to play internet tough guy and call others out, why don't you go express your freedom to draw Muhammad in the middle of Saudi Arabia and get back to me once you're done.

Oh yeah, great way to win an argument - tell your opponent to do something you know full well will cost him a fortune and that no sane person would do as a result of an internet debate.

There's not a man alive that can intimidate me

contradicts

The reason I wouldn't draw pictures of Muhammad has nothing to do with the religion itself. It has to do with the crazy motherfuckers who actually act out their threats.

You say one thing, then attack me when I respond with a comment based on it and proceed to say the total opposite.

 

[Adm. Empoleon]

cantab, the Palestine/Israel conflict is relevant to this thread. It has to do with what extremists do to innocent people. Killing the irrelevant. Sure, they need to take out terrorists' cells, but do they really need to kill innocent children?
And yeah, I know that I have to pray.

LK, you are describing Indian people, as most of them wear turbans and have big bushy beards. Or the shee'a in Iraq. They wear turbans as well as possessing huge bushy beards.

And yeah, mizra, you do allow yourself to be bullied around.

 

[Bucky]

Well I'm Muslim, and quite honestly the whole "draw Mohammed day" thing really does upset me, but I'm not about to go around blowing stuff up and threatening people because they do it. And I think other Muslims who threaten the lives of those who do are being foolish and only making the problem worse. In Islam, it's considered a form of sacrilege to depict God or His Prophets, including Jesus, Moses, Abraham, etc. And so when people go around drawing their own versions of Mohammed for no good reason, it naturally upsets Muslims because he's a major figure in our religion, and quite frankly we feel it's being done for the sole purpose of offending us and making a mockery of our religion. Does that give us the right to chop people's heads off, of course not. But I think if you know that something is offensive to a specific group of people, you shouldn't do it. It's like a bunch of white folks running around with black dollar bills with the KFC logo on it one one side and the kool-aid man on the other, or how a group of kids in I think it was Georgia who thought it was funny to hang nooses on a tree during black history month (and yes, I'm african american too).

There's a quote going around amongst the Muslim community that goes "When you attack black people, they call it racism. Attack Jewish people, they call it Antisemitism. Attack a religious sect, they call it hate speech. Attack women, they call it sexism. Attack your country, they call it treason. But when you attack the Prophet Muhammad, they want to call it freedom of speech". All Muslims see it from that perspective and it's just unfair.

 

[Adm. Empoleon]

"When you attack black people, they call it racism. Attack Jewish people, they call it Antisemitism. Attack a religious sect, they call it hate speech. Attack women, they call it sexism. Attack your country, they call it treason. But when you attack the Prophet Muhammad, they want to call it freedom of speech". All Muslims see it from that perspective and it's just unfair.

That is entirely true. That is how we see it in Jordan, and in the Arabian region mainly.

 

[afterburn]

@ Admn. Empoleon, some outsiders view Muslims like that

 

[Scoopapa]

I agree with Adm. Empoleon on most of what he's posted in this thread, except for one issue. While many people feel that most religions are peace-loving and that people who do violent things in the name of religion are misinterpreting them, I feel the opposite: I've never seen a holy book that didn't demand brutal death for some sort of minor, silly or intangible offense before. The Old Testament demands death for those who work on Sundays, for kids who drink too much and talk back to their parents, and for homosexuals. I know Islam has similar mandates (Sharia Law) - the only difference is that the extremists actually follow them. If you had Christians burying gays up to their chests and throwing rocks at their faces (in Islam the punishment is throwing them from a cliff I think), then fundamentalist Christians would be just as bad as fundamentalist Muslims. It's all there to be found in the holy books. As such, I think it's more that the three big monotheistic religions are quite violent in many aspects, and that peaceful followers of them are simply leaving out the bad parts because they know better.

It's absolutely possible to justify persecuting heretics (and thus something like the Spanish Inquisition) under the grounds of Christianity. The heretic next door is worse than the child molester next door - after all, the heretic can say something to your children that will damn their soul for all eternity. As a counterpoint, there is no way to justify bloodshed in a religion like Janism, whose followers wear cloth over their mouths and noses to avoid accidentally inhaling insects.

Edit: also, the only reason free speech justifies drawing muhammad is as direct retort to those who would threaten us with death. Otherwise, it's just a hateful insult. That's my view on the matter at any rate.

 

[UncleSam]

"When you attack black people, they call it racism. Attack Jewish people, they call it Antisemitism. Attack a religious sect, they call it hate speech. Attack women, they call it sexism. Attack your country, they call it treason. But when you attack the Prophet Muhammad, they want to call it freedom of speech". All Muslims see it from that perspective and it's just unfair.

That is entirely true. That is how we see it in Jordan, and in the Arabian region mainly.

Umm...that quote is bullshit because you take the quotes from the groups being attacked for the other stuff then take the quote from the "attacker" when referring to Islam. A more truthful ending would have been "But when you attack the Prophet Muhammad, they call it sacrilege, and a tiny tiny minority of extremists may or may not brutally murder you." Besides, other stuff DOES get attacked, and they deal with it. It is natural for you to be upset, and you have every reason to be upset. But no more reason to be upset than other groups when they are degraded. Hell, probably less because you are not actually being degraded so much as challenged, at least in the modern sense of the word.

Again, you absolutely have the right to be upset. Just don't expect anyone to listen (as a Catholic, I know that no one listens when my Church complains about people throwing around "Hate Speech"). But no one has the right to exact vengeance in the name of sacrilege: If someone is profaning God/Mohammad/whatever else you believe in, won't they be punished enough in the afterlife anyhow?

 

[mirza]

Okay seeing as you guys are a bunch of fucking badasses you supposidly have no issues drawing the guy on the same day as everybody else and yet you wouldn't have the nuts to do it in the region where the people can actually reach you.

Shut the fuck up.

People participated to express their liberty and they did it on the same day to be safe. Would anyone do it in the heart of the middle east???? NO and why not? Could it be because that's not fucking rational??

Personally I saw zero value in participating and I'm not one for offending people. But whatever.

You guys remind me of the assholes that I see at bars that start shit with the one guy and his girlfriend. If put in the same room with said guy and you were by yourself you wouldn't say a damn thing.

 

[Electrode]

Okay seeing as you guys are a bunch of fucking badasses you supposidly have no issues drawing the guy on the same day as everybody else and yet you wouldn't have the nuts to do it in the region where the people can actually reach you.

I'm sure they wouldn't have a problem sending their police force and or group of extremists to kill me.

You guys remind me of the assholes that I see at bars that start shit with the one guy and his girlfriend. If put in the same room with said guy and you were by yourself you wouldn't say a damn thing.

I do believe that one of the co-founders of the day was almost killed in a bombing, although they never participated in any Mohammed bashing. I think one of the points of the day, besides to practice free speech, is the idea of "They bomb innocents, anyone could die, so why not do it anyway?"

http://reason.com/archives/2010/05/14/the-poet-versus-the-prophet : I'm not sure if this helped start the day, but people keep mentioning it in the comments and it certainly calls for action greater than just drawing Mohammed on one day.

 

[WeGotTheJazz]

Arguably as important as Christian going to Church on Sundays. But I know even baptists who prescribe to the "I worship in my way" mantra.

I don't know as much about Christianity as I should but as far as I can tell Church on Sundays isn't in quite the same vein as Muslim prayer. When it comes to praying 5 times a day, it's like you miss one and (unless you make up for it somehow) you're fucked BURN FOR ETERNITY.

Life is so hard for Muslims it really is

[/derail]

 

[Lelouch]

Islam is not a peaceful religion. Islam is based on a book with some horrific content, and anyone who can claim to be a muslim is tacitly stating his approval of that book, whether he's read the damn thing or not.

Respect is a word thrown around far too easily these days. We should NOT respect anyone stupid enough to read a book and believe it and we should respect those stupid people even less when they not only believe a work of fiction, but obey the rules it sets forth. Then, we should respect them still less when they're stupid enough to believe in the book, cowardly enough to obey what they believe to be threats (live like this or suffer) and evil enough to accept those commandments to live by as justified.

Now we've established respect isn't something all humans should be given freely without thinking about it, on to the main issue: whether or not my right to live without being offended, or your right to freedom. I honestly have trouble conceiving of any mind so thoroughly indoctrinated that they don't recognize that BEING OFFENDED IS NOT A HARMFUL STATE.

Question: where is the line between what freedoms you will surrender to keep some stupid people happy and what you care too much about to give up?

Note: I have no concept of offense and I don't have time for dealing with offended people. If my bluntness offends you, put me on your ignore list and PM me to let me know you have and I will return the favour

EDIT: The forum isn't formatting my post properly; paragraphing is ignored. Hence the hyphens.

 

[vonFiedler]

Just because no one has any respect for you doesn't mean you shouldn't have any respect for others. That kind of "everyone in the world is an moron except me" doesn't get you very far in life.

 

[Lelouch]

Just because no one has any respect for you doesn't mean you shouldn't have any respect for others. That kind of "everyone in the world is an moron except me" doesn't get you very far in life.

Jumping to conclusions about people's lives doesn't help much, either.

Stupid people bore me, you're going on my ignore list, I suggest you add me to yours so you don't waste your time addressing me again.

EDIT: NoScript was causing the formatting issues.

 

[Xaqwais]

When it comes to praying 5 times a day, it's like you miss one and (unless you make up for it somehow) you're fucked BURN FOR ETERNITY.

Uh, you can make it up, but if you consciously miss it and don't make it up, that's something that'll screw you over. Not for the eternity thing though.


As always, the extremist Muslims always make it harder to argue for our (moderate/orthodox/whatever) points. I'm done arguing that we're different entities, cause some people refuse to listen.

The only point I want to argue against currently is the one of "Christianity and other religions deal with this shit all the time, so man up and take it. They have [horrible material] versions of Jesus."

As Muslims, we have the utmost respect for the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. It's forbidden for us to depict him in anyway. I understand that you might want us to man up or whatever, but me seeing the pure blasphemy put against Jesus and Mary on the claims of "art" make my desire for things like Draw Muhammad Day not to happen even stronger.

If we allow drawings, what's not to say someone isn't going to build one out of shit later, as done with Jesus (or was it Mary?). In Islam, we believe that Jesus was a Prophet and Mary was very pious woman. In all reality, we should be going against depictions of them as forceful as we go against depictions of our Prophet Muhammad. Unfortunately, since Christianity has some sort of "claim" on them, we don't do so, and their image is ruined.

My personal disagreement against Draw Muhammad Day was something where they merely drew a 6th century Arab man with no stereotypes at all, they would send the same message as they were trying to achieve. The fact that they wanted people to draw our prophet with bomb strapped to him and such shows that they wanted a reaction that wasn't just civilized talk.

I know that even without the stereotypes the artists would receive death threats. But the fact that the organizers wanted such a crude reaction is what unsettles me.
___________________________

Apologizing now for any mistakes or misconceptions I have.

 

[mirza]

I'm sure they wouldn't have a problem sending their police force and or group of extremists to kill me.

That wasn't directed at you. I was saying that to the people throwing insults around.

I wasn't even arguing. I only stated my opinion and then someone jumped on me.

Quite frankly religious people are generally annoyed when people make fun of their faith. The problem here is that the fundamentalists kill people over petty shit like this and I doubt drawing Muhammad will help the situation at all. They probably interpret it as people just mocking them. Not to mention drawing Muhammad won't make them any less violent than they already are.

I know several Catholic kids whose parents won't allow them to watch South Park because it makes fun of Christianity all the time.

I believe it's the same thing with showing Muhammad except that there's a group of crazy guys who'd kill people over something so small.

 

[Electrode]

That wasn't directed at you. I was saying that to the people throwing insults around.

I knew that it wasn't directed towards me, but I took it up because I am one of the people that think bombing people that draw Mohammed is ridiculous.

I wasn't even arguing. I only stated my opinion and then someone jumped on me.

I understand; and I didn't mean to sound offensive with my reaction about being attacked by a police force / extremists.

Quite frankly religious people are generally annoyed when people make fun of their faith. The problem here is that the fundamentalists kill people over petty shit like this and I doubt drawing Muhammad will help the situation at all.

I agree.

Not to mention drawing Muhammad won't make them any less violent than they already are.

I think that another one of the points was to show that they would practice their free speech, no matter how much the extremists bombed them. Basically saying, "Yeah, keep bombing, I keep drawing Mohammed, and every time a bomb goes off, my words/images will get worse and worse."

I know several Catholic kids whose parents won't allow them to watch South Park because it makes fun of Christianity all the time.
I believe it's the same thing with showing Muhammad except that there's a group of crazy guys who'd kill people over something so small.

Basically, yeah.

 

[Lelouch]

I know that even without the stereotypes the artists would receive death threats. But the fact that the organizers wanted such a crude reaction is what unsettles me.

I can't speak for everyone who participated. However, for my part, I drew Muhammed (piss be upon him) as "offensively" as possible. Bombs, naked nine year old wife, big cock up his ass, the works.

Why? Because the concept that your opinions on offense should limit my freedoms is one of the worst notions I have ever heard. You are entitled to live without fear of being bodily harmed, but you are not entitled to live without fear of having your beliefs ridiculed. Nor are you entitled to impose your beliefs on anyone else.

I am not muslim. It doesn't matter if I do it to offend, to educate, to pass the time or because everyone else is doing it. No justification is necessary. I have the right to draw whatever the fuck I please, and everyone else has the right to look at it if they like. If you look at it and don't like it, you're free to stop, and to warn your fellow muslims about it. You are not entitled to stop people viewing it, either by impeding their view ("peaceful") or blowing up the building it's being displayed in (decidedly violent). As for killing me, the person who drew it? Also violent, but completely pointless and petty.

Basically, I feel everyone should offend muslims as often as they can manage. Not only so they learn to grow up and realize they are not subject to different rules than the rest of us, but to remind those of us who have forgotten that we DO have that right.

 

[Phantom_IV]

Islam is not a peaceful religion. Islam is based on a book with some horrific content, and anyone who can claim to be a muslim is tacitly stating his approval of that book, whether he's read the damn thing or not.

Well, in the same vein, neither is Christianity a peaceful religion. There's some pretty awful stuff going on in that book as well, from brutal murders to burning cities, and people being struck down on a whim.

I'm not religious, but the main thing I take from these debates is that the interpretation of "holy" texts should focus mainly on broad principles. The exact language of it was written by people and subject to contradictions and exaggerations of events that may or may not have really occurred. People should remember that right and wrong, good and evil, are a continuum, and a blurry one at that.

Basically, I feel everyone should offend muslims as often as they can manage. Not only so they learn to grow up and realize they are not subject to different rules than the rest of us, but to remind those of us who have forgotten that we DO have that right.

Okay, and this is decidedly wrong. There are only a few extremists and a bunch of normal people going on with their lives. Don't lump them. It's like saying all Christians are antisemitic Nazis bent upon purifying the world to be only the Aryan race.