Election 2008, United States

[Ancien Régime]

(and not having the money in the first place to be very academically excellent)

Correlation = / = causation.

they might not perform academically because their parents don't encourage academic performance - which is the reason the parents are poor in the first place!


Money is a nice start. I'll take the devoted lower-income family over the apathetic trust fund family 10/10 times. And if it's an apathetic lower-income family then yeah the kid(s) are in trouble.

Incidentally, IQ is pretty much bullshit, as are these "racial differences". It's just crap eugenic theory. My issue is that people should not be permitted to have their bad decisions excused, even for something real like racism.

Western countries where these ideologies are most prominent tend to have some of the worst economic mobility if you notice.

Of course, mainly because countries where those ideologies are NOT prominent force "economic mobility" through redistribution of wealth.

 

[Zathura]

redistribution of wealth is good. what do you think the purpose of welfare is other than to give money to poor people?
and the people who are proclaiming the lack of racial differences are giving as much, if not less, backing to their claims than the people who say otherwise.
I think that in exchange for certian superior physical characteristics, ie height, they must have given something up. if there's no intellectual differences between the races, why haven't the black people wiped out the other races, given their clear physical advantage.
actually, as somebpdy else put it, height is no more objective than intelligence insofar as the differences between races are concerned. the statistics for both come from the same sources, and both can be blamed on external factors; for the former, malnutrition, and for the latter, an oppressive society. both stupidty and shortness are unquestionably stigmatized.

 

[Glen]

peanut-lover, you are a hero

you actually have black friends, full-well KNOWING that they are genetically inferior to you? smogon should have a system where you can just click on someone's name and get an option to send them money

 

[Trax]

Yo McCain supporters you might want to check http://kskirby.net/mccain.html out. Notice how it doesn't take retarded guilt-by-association smears about ANGRY BLACK MEN to show how horrible he is.

I started reading this then realized half of what he said on Iraq was correct, and that it was just poor war management that caused the incorrect parts - it's hardly John McCain's fault that the US didn't put enough troops on the ground to get Iraq under control.

 

[Kingdrom]

In order to completely eliminate racism from the picture, it does us no good to sympathize for past actions. Both whites, hispanics, and blacks alike have to work for a living. Public school is free up until high school in the U.S., so there is no reason not to get at least a high school education. While there may be different values between blacks and whites, all of the values which create the most economic and social stability will eventually become the norm, just like Darwin's Natural Selection. Reverse racism isn't solving the problem either. Sure, I want to get into Carnegie Mellon's computer science program, but do I want a person who has a worse resume than me to get in simply because of their race? I think the answer is obvious.

Sympathy towards blacks on account of their past is not the answer. First of all, our government is not in the position to offer mass funding to every black living in the United States. All of Bush's extraneous spending has our country in a sizeable debt, and it is hard to determine whether it is a worthy investment or not. Second of all, it would undermine their honor and integrity, the hope they have of living the so called "American Dream". *Starts hypothetical situation* Let's say that I'm addicted to smoking. I don't make much money to begin with. If I were given 10,000 dollars by some guy on the street, of course I would be happy, but would I be able to pay my bills when I am throwing so much money away on cigarettes? No. In the same way, since many blacks have not exploited their opportunities but instead chose other ways of life more accepted by their current set of values. There is nothing we can do to change this, we will have to wait a few generations, but eventually they can be as well off as whites currently are.

Any type of support we wouldn't give to another person just leads to more dependency from a people who are, relatively speaking, less experienced at economic and social dependency. They will learn quickly; they already have. This is natural selection at work: the best adapted will survive, and those who are not will adapt to become sucessful. It is a little like pokemon and the metagame- one must adapt to the metagame to become sucessful. The most experienced players, who somewhat dictate the metagame, are the most adapted, and the other players learn to adapt to a general way of doing things (metagame).


I'm not sure that McCain will get anywhere if elected into office. Ironically, Obama has the same problem. As most candidates do, both compromise their values for what is accepted by society. What I find particularly startling about electing McCain is that he is pro-torture, while he was a POW in Vietnam for 5 years. I don't know what that feels like, being a POW, but I'm sure that I wouldn't be pro-torture after experiencing torture. His age and health conditions would be of issue for me, as it would hinder him from running the country to his best ability otherwise.

I don't think electing Obama would be too good either, judging by his inexperience. Then again, nothing says that a candidate must be experienced to perform well in office (aka high approval ratings), such as Theodore Roosevelt and Abraham Lincoln.

I'd probably go with Obama. I really think that Iraq is a bad idea. The preemptive military action, while a good defense against terrorism, doesn't help us in international relations in the long run, which is what is needed to supress a terrorist network as large and as omnipresent as al-Queda. I just don't want to watch the US currency degrade to nothing as we endlessly pursuit a stable Iraq, which we will not get without help from other countries.

 

[God.]

Correlation = / = causation.

wealth/family attitude toward eductation are the most important things in determining school performance(and for the purposes of this conversation they can be considered one in the same, since the culture of inner-city/poor areas lack both), and the education system in our culture has always been geared toward the middle class and above, even in poorer/inner-city areas.

My issue is that people should not be permitted to have their bad decisions excused, even for something real like racism.

it is not a matter of excusing people, it's a matter of understanding why people are in certain situations so that it can be corrected to the benefit of society as a whole. doing nothing(the popular libertarian idea!) hasn't exactly helped for the past several ideas.

you are a libertarian, im pretty sure you like ron paul, so here is an analogy for you: in response to 9/11, should we just say "oh, it's because bin ladin is evil and hates freedom" and learn nothing from it, or should we realize that we provoked the attack by getting involved on the wrong side of another nation's affairs, and thus learn from the experience not to do so again

 

[Minwu]

If Obama declares Hillary his running mate its game over :] Hopefully if he dosent, he'll get someone alright.

If you look at the candidates issues I find Obama has better plans....with Hillary with him, they MIGHT get them done. I think the US is tired of living on empty promises (cough cough BUSH cough cough) so I think even if Hillary isnt in the White House she'll be close enough to make a difference. Come on DEMOCRATS!!! Change FTW

-Black Rayquaza

Obama wouldn't pick Hillary. Obama shouldn't pick Hillary. She's been spending the past six months trying to discredit him. I don't get what the big deal about a black male and white female running together is either.

 

[Ambitions]

Great Sage should refresh the poll, or just open a new thread to see if people are changing there minds as this race to the White House progresses.

After all the poll is titled "Who would you vote for if the presidential race is held now?"

 

[Black Rayquaza]

Obama wouldn't pick Hillary. Obama shouldn't pick Hillary. She's been spending the past six months trying to discredit him. I don't get what the big deal about a black male and white female running together is either.

And he wasn't trying to do the same???? If you watched the debates, on multiple occasions they credited each other for certain issues. Hopefully they can come up with a general Democratic Value Compromise and get together and win this thing =]

-Black Rayquaza

 

[Great Sage]

Great Sage should refresh the poll, or just open a new thread to see if people are changing there minds as this race to the White House progresses.

After all the poll is titled "Who would you vote for if the presidential race is held now?"

The poll was just a random gimmick. Holding a poll here doesn't give any real information, as liberals tend to outnumber conservatives on a Pokemon forum.

 

[Surgo]

On a side note, and going back to a slightly earlier part of the thread, I'd appreciate it if libertarians (which I am) weren't lumped in with fucking crazy Ron Paul (who imo is fucking crazy) supporters :-)

 

[God.]

it is another tragic by product of the internet ron paul revolution. libertarians and (BAN ME PLEASE)s who support ron paul because they saw his name on the comments section of a youtube federal reserve video, are mostly interchangable for the pruposes of practicality.

 

[Ancien Régime]

Why is Ron Paul "fucking crazy" I don't understand. Just because he's radical, doesn't mean he's "crazy".

I mean, is Constitutional adherence somehow "crazy" because society has accepted so many blatantly unconstitutional acts by the government and been told it's good? Or is opposing the steady erosion of indidivual rights? (and do NOT think the Democrats will do anything to restore them)

and don't give me that racist bullshit honestly that's like saying obama's racist - the only thing that's even close is the (not absolutely but more or less true) statement that 95% of blacks don't have sensible political views

 

[Misty]

Ron Paul more like Herbert Hoover am i rite?

 

[Surgo]

Ron Paul's craziness? Here's an example. Ron Paul is for the privatization of roads(1)(2). He thinks private ventures and individuals can do better with roads than the government can (a laughable proposition in its own right). Private ventures get to make decisions about their private roads. Like whether or not to allow fire trucks to drive on them. Needless to say, that's retarded. Now if I'm wrong, I'll admit it: can someone show me how privatization of roads would -not- lead to private ventures being able to deny access to whatever they please (like fire trucks)? Because if not, road privatization seems like crazy talk to me.

(1) http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2007/tst082707.htm
(2) http://whereistand.com/RonPaul/19318

 

[Ancien Régime]

actually Ron Paul is like the exact opposite of Herbet Hoover

incidentally, the idea that he did nothing about the depression is patently false - he worsened it via government intervention

Ron Paul's craziness? Here's an example. Ron Paul is for the privatization of roads(1)(2). He thinks private ventures and individuals can do better with roads than the government can (a laughable proposition in its own right). Private ventures get to make decisions about their private roads. Like whether or not to allow fire trucks to drive on them. Needless to say, that's retarded. Now if I'm wrong, I'll admit it: can someone show me how privatization of roads would -not- lead to private ventures being able to deny access to whatever they please (like fire trucks)? Because if not, road privatization seems like crazy talk to me.

I'm not sure about road privatization...though you have an awfully shitty opinion of people if you think a private venture would actually deny access to essential vehicles?

Though it wouldn't be about "access", it would be about maintainence - in my view the venture maintains the roads, and if people don't pay, then the roads go to shit. Obviously people don't want their roads to go to shit, so they'll pay. If there is a need for new roads, then the venture is paid by consumers to build roads, or they can propose to local governing bodies that "Area X needs transportation and here's how much it would cost". The roads themselves would be "commons" - open to all.

Since private industry by its nature demands efficiency - if the roads decline in quality, or money is spent inefficiently (leading to either higher prices for the same quality of work, or a lower quality of work,) then they'll hire another private enterprise.

Again, I don't wholeheartedly support it - there are a LOT of logistics issues, but it's not THAT crazy of an idea.

 

[Sand Man]

Ron Paul was the only Republican candidate out of this year's miserable peanut gallery who actually managed to be more evil than Giuliani.
Libertarians are barely any better because it's still mostly privileged white males going "What do you mean I've got to give my IT job wages to some welfare queen I NEED THAT MONEY FOR ANIME AND MOUNTAIN DEW".

 

[Surgo]

Good God, i think Ron Paul is a nutcase but at least back up your statements.

 

[Sand Man]

and don't give me that racist bullshit honestly that's like saying obama's racist - the only thing that's even close is the (not absolutely but more or less true) statement that 95% of blacks don't have sensible political views

hahahaaha yeah how about the yuletide newsletter he denied writing or his batshit insane immigration policy

Ron Paul is "I'm not racist, BUT" made flesh

 

[Misty]

Private roads have their advantages - private roads in Louisiana were reconstructed very quickly after Hurricane Katrina, while many public roads languished in disrepair for years. (I read about this months ago, so no, no source.) The downside is that private roads require tolls - and, given the price of gas, nobody wants to pay that.

I generally approve of free market principles, and, given my other positions, this makes me largely a libertarian - but I feel there are certain areas where government control, for all its faults, is simply the way to go.

 

[Ancien Régime]

Libertarians are barely any better because it's still mostly privileged white males going "What do you mean I've got to give my IT job wages to some welfare queen I NEED THAT MONEY FOR ANIME AND MOUNTAIN DEW".

Frankly, your attitude is disgusting.

You essentially say its okay to STEAL from people because it's for "poor people" (let's pretend that a lot of that money doesn't go into government bureaucrat pockets). It's still immoral, even if welfare was 100% effective. Do you think people sit on their ass and have money handed to them? People WORK. Give me a reason why the money of people who work should be extracted from them at GUNPOINT, and given to people who don't?

batshit insane immigration policy

I tenatively favor open borders (every argument against regulated immigration i've ever seen is silly especially the security one) but I don't have to agree with my candidate 100%.

 

[Surgo]

Private roads have their advantages - private roads in Louisiana were reconstructed very quickly after Hurricane Katrina, while many public roads languished in disrepair for years

I believe it, ironically, because of the source I put for Ron Paul on privatization of roads. However, what you said does not mean that this is an advantage that private roads has. With properly funded road maintenance, public roads would be as fine or better than private roads. I can't believe I'm now quoting Ron Paul but what he said has some truth: public figures like cutting the opening tape more than maintaining legacy systems.

I'm not sure about road privatization...though you have an awfully shitty opinion of people if you think a private venture would actually deny access to essential vehicles?

There's some truth to this statement, but more simply I am always suspicious of the "just trust us with these powers *wink*" that happens when some entity has absolute power over something. I think most of us understand how bad an idea that is when it comes to things like unregulated wiretapping. And while 'the government has absolute power over the roads' is a valid argument, it's also extremely misleading because as far as I know the government (outside of the police) has no power to arbitrarily deny access to public roads.

 

[unceunce]

how about you guys look at Ron Paul's other views, besides the road.

Just so you know, Ron Paul donates alot of his pay check to the Treasury. So please don't make the assumption that Ron Paul is just a privileged white male who could care less.

 

[Ancien Régime]

I believe it, ironically, because of the source I put for Ron Paul on privatization of roads. However, what you said does not mean that this is an advantage that private roads has. With properly funded road maintenance, public roads would be as fine or better than private roads. I can't believe I'm now quoting Ron Paul but what he said has some truth: public figures like cutting the opening tape more than maintaining legacy systems.

Here's the thing - private enterprise, by its nature, tends towards maximizing efficiency (for people who say businesses maximize profit, again, if you cut costs on the roads and they decline in quality, people can use another enterprise). They have a vested interest in maintaining legacy systems, as if their system fails, they lose business and profit.

it's also extremely misleading because as far as I know the government (outside of the police) has no power to arbitrarily deny access to public roads.

Well, I can come up with a lot of "worst-case abuse scenarios" where a police and fire station fight, and the police arbitarly deny access to fire vehicles or something like that.

Again, a private enterprise cannot have "absolute power" because they are dependent on their clients for their existence. And (though not ideal), they can be legally prohibited from denying access or demanding payment for essential vehicles.

 

[Surgo]

Here's the thing - private enterprise, by its nature, tends towards maximizing efficiency (for people who say businesses maximize profit, again, if you cut costs on the roads and they decline in quality, people can use another enterprise). They have a vested interest in maintaining legacy systems, as if their system fails, they lose business and profit.

I understand that this is how it works, and is a completely legitimate argument, in the ideal model with essentially limitless choices for the user. I do not believe it is a legitimate argument for private roads, however, because there are not limitless choices as to what you take to get to your destination; often there few*. "Maximizing efficiency" in all cases means finding the most profitable balance between cutting corners on your road and getting people to drive on them, and a decrease in the number of choices means that balance starts tipping heavily in favor of corner cutting because the number of people driving on your road starts becoming more and more inelastic. The barrier of entry to making new roads being quite high means that drivers are pretty much stuck with the corner cutting whether they like it or not.

Private ventures may have a vested interest in making the roads good (which pushes the balance away from corner cutting) but if you're the only game in town, you're going to cut as many corners as you can live with.

* While you can take roundabout ways, you are virtually always going to end up taking the same stretch in several of your routes.