• Smogon Premier League is here and the team collection is now available. Support your team!

Election 2008, United States

Who would you vote for if the presidential race is held now?

  • Barack Obama

    Votes: 415 72.4%
  • John McCain

    Votes: 130 22.7%
  • Other (Please specify)

    Votes: 28 4.9%

  • Total voters
    573
Nevada's dynamics tend to be highly polarized - pro-gun nuts and Mormons on the Republican side, Hispanics and Las Vegas on the Democratic side. Obama could be winning or losing by 10% and Nevada would still be close. Ground game matters here, I think.

Strangely, Michigan and Pennsylvania have flipped. Michigan now seems fairly Democratic, while Pennsylvania is drifting more towards a tie. I'm not sure what to attribute this to; but in any case, I still full expect Obama to win both states at this point.

Two polls in Indiana today show it very close - which is fairly surprising. Still, I don't expect Obama to win it unless he's up by about 7-8%, in which case he's won every swing state imaginable anyway.

Florida has been a bit hard to pin down, but the balance of polls shows a Republican lean.

Ohio seems to be drifting in Obama's direction - now that the economy is in and Palin is out.

Colorado is looking like it's going to decide this election. I can't imagine a scenario where Obama loses MI/PA/NM and winning CO; or where he wins OH/VA/FL without winning Colorado.
 
If I could vote, I would vote for McCain in this election. Barak Oboma is just an idealistic fool. He wants middle class tax cuts along with... more government spending in universal health care, another government rebate check, and general increased government size... Seriously. Does anybody else understand you can't decrease taxes and increase the size of government? In order to 'try' to balance himself, he says he'll tax business. Which, last time I checked, are people I buy everything from, including groceries, gas, and other essentials. There is no way Oboma will be able to keep his promises. I think John Mccain is a decent canadiate, but Oboma will just say whatever he needs to get elected. Barak Oboma is a great speaker, but great campaining doesn't equal great president. John Mccain is the strongest caniadate still standing.
 
maddog said:
If I could vote, I would vote for McCain in this election. Barak Oboma is just an idealistic fool...There is no way Oboma will be able to keep his promises.

If more Americans had this view, I could see us rising back to the top of the world, and be a center of scientific inginuity and economic dominance we had under Eisenhower. I would say Reagan, but we didn't have any real breakthroughs of the top of my head.


maddog said:
He wants middle class tax cuts along with... more government spending in universal health care, another government rebate check, and general increased government size... Seriously. Does anybody else understand you can't decrease taxes and increase the size of government?

Well, many would argue Bush = Obama on this - increase the size of the military while offering tax cuts to everyone.

We as the United States won't work well with universal health care. Europeans, Canadians, tell me - how long do you wait between doctor appointments while you're healthy? 4-6 months? How about when you're sick, and you need orthopedists with a reputation. Try 1-2 years. Our insurance system is fine as long as people don't abuse it and know what the terms are. We have laws that force insurance companies to give certain coverage even after firing for no more than you were paying already. You need to know how to read, and how to make your money andyour job work for you.

maddgo said:
In order to 'try' to balance himself, he says he'll tax business.

Actually, this is how he's going to fix health care - he says that if universal health care doesn't pass, he'll force the corner store with a stock boy and a register man to provide health care for both - it will inevitably lead to the firing of these "extras", will eventually lead to the failure of the small business, and will thus support big business - something he claims to be against.

maddog said:
I think John Mccain is a decent canadiate, but Oboma will just say whatever he needs to get elected. Barak Oboma is a great speaker...

I'm not one to quote religious texts, sheerly(sp?) because their accuracy is questionable. Here's what I get fromt he antichrist:
~Utopian ideology
~Great orator
~Wolf in sheeps clothing
~Appeals to those suffering (the weak)
~Makes promises that he breaks half the term in.
~Wiped out by the army of heaven

Hmm...Adolf Hitler fits most of those. Stalin fits most (he wasn't killed by an army - Truman was a pussy). Napoleon was wiped out by the Brits and Americans. Obama if he gets elected will probably fulfill all of them. I think we can expect massive death and destruction while he's president.


maddog said:
..., but great campaining doesn't equal great president. John Mccain is the strongest caniadate still standing.
Perfect conclusion.



Misty: Palin effect. electoral-vote.com siad that its because she's a real hotty.
 
Palin fought corruption in her own state, which, need I remind you, was dominated by Republicans. Obama was a Chicago Daley Machine hack. Obama didn't fight corruption, he made deals with it. Tony Rezko, convicted felon, was his real estate agent.

The corruption I was referring to was trying to get an ex in-law removed the police department. Source: http://www.newser.com/story/36605/palin-emails-complain-in-law-wasnt-canned.html

The funny thing is, I'm not defending Obama. Trying to prove he's corrupt does not dismiss what I am saying about Palin.

As for your ludicrous Dinosaur claim, did you rip that straight from DailyKos or is that just your imagination running wild again?

I made a logical conclusion about this one. She claims not to support the teaching of creation myths as science in schools, but believes in a 'debate'. Source: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gV5jvU52RD3WBflzbmSu5l6zwOqAD92V3VQG0

Anyone who can think can see clearly she supports creationism. Why would someone advocate letting it be considered, when it has no credible scientific backing, unless they believed it themselves?

Also, funny that you claim my 'imagination is running away from me again', when you later claim to barely remember me.



None of these sources are left-wing. They're centrist, at best. Provide me some evidence that these people actually advocate something that is remotely similar to workers owning the means of production.

The day I hear someone say "her contraception failed, therefore comprehensive sex education is a categorical failure" is the day I'll put any stock against abstinence education. As it stands, you will never become pregnant if you remain abstinent, but stories of "safe" sex failing to prevent pregnancy are legion. Rape is a non-sequiter, as rapists do not tend to use protection. Leftists expected the "right wing," e.g. people like me, to turn on Sarah Palin. We didn't because we realize that parents only have limited control over their teenagers, and teenagers have a habit of making mistakes. Sarah Palin is no more a hypocrite for her daughter getting pregnant than would Obama be if his hypothetical teenage daughter got pregnant.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2008-06-24-abstinence-grants_N.htm Oh, look at this. Turns out that most of the US states think abstinence education is a failure after trying it out.

Leftists do not think we are capable of this nuance. A Leftist's view of the Right Wing is as a demonic caricature, not as a real person. Why else would the pregnancy of a minor be front page news in America's "Paper of Record?"

Perhaps some people feel it is hypocritical to claim you are 'family-oriented' when you don't pay enough attention to your kid to prevent them from getting pregnant.

George Soros is a billionaire socialist. He is very comfortable throwing money around to lost liberal causes like Air America. Moreover, your "proof" is a logical algorithm loosely translated as follows:

Corporations are rich
Rich entities cannot be left-wing
Therefore, corporations must be right-wing.

That only proves you didn't understand what I was saying.

If news networks were actually socialist, they would be shooting themselves in the foot. If, as your definition claims, socialism is everything controlled by the gov't, then why would they advocate it? It would ruin them.

I, however, have this study.

Oooookay, this doesn't actually show that they are left-wing. Just that they don't like McCain as much as they do Obama. Considering Obama is a pretty-standard politician and McCain has long been considered an extreme maverick, that isn't really a surprise.

You have to look at the whole picture to get an accurate idea of left and right. For example, the rest of first the world would not consider any American politician left-wing. In other countries, the Communist Party regularly gets a nice chunk of votes. So, really, you're just seeing it this way because you are only looking at a narrow example.

Socialist: Any person who believes government should have as much control over economic and personal decisions as possible. Thus, a socialist policy will seek to nationalize all industries, especially those inextricably linked to health, safety, and well-being: e.g. Energy, Health Care, Finance, and Social Services.

Hahaha. While what you describe are loosely elements of socialism, they are not a definition. Socialism is the working class controlling the state.

. . . The Sodomy lobby . . .

Speaking of shooting yourself in the foot. Do you have any credibility left with anyone after a statement like this? I mean, let's be honest. You're not going to convince me, and I'm not going to convince you, ever.

The thing is, will we convince anyone else? The answer in this case is probably that we will only preach to the converted. The problem is that with such a bigoted statement, you've shown too much of yourself.

Why would anyone want to align themselves with someone so intolerant?

unions are now more about securing kickbacks than opposing bad labor conditions.

You got this one right. The US has no real organized working class anymore, which is why worker's rights are taking a real hit.

Oh, and while we're at it, can you define "capitalist" outside of "republicans" or "corporations" or "something I don't like?"

A capitalist is someone who owns the means of production. The definition of capitalism is an economy in which commodity production by wage labour.

The US is not a 'free market', as evidenced by the recent government corporate welfare (AKA buyouts). Every time the market is 'free', it fails spectacularly and has to be saved; the Depression, the 80s, and now.

BTW, Democrats are capitalists, too. You make the mistake of assuming that I am a liberal or democrat. I am neither. I call them all as capitalists who do not have the interests of the working class at heart.

Now, Define the Bush Doctrine. And no, do not use "pre-emptive war for oil." If you want to know what it is, I recommend asking Charles Krauthammer.

It's the doctrine of pursuing American interests using military might. Charles Krauthammer is a very right-wing writer. Almost every one of your sources is. It is a bad sign when you can only find evidence from highly biased people.


I support fighting terrorism wherever it rears its ugly head. This does not mean we need to send the US Army and Marines everywhere, it means we must oust terrorist supporting states when possible and work with democratic countries to fight the terrorist cells in their nations. The US cannot reasonably invade everywhere, but they don't need to if terrorists have no refuge anywhere on earth.

So, what does it mean when we use terrorism? Who defines a 'terrorism supporting state'? Britain uses terrorism regularly. So does the US. So does Israel.

It's really about protecting capitalist interests.

Fact is, McCain got the Georgia-Russia conflict right instantly, Obama took 3 days to reach a carbon copy of John McCain's first position. McCain knows a KGB man like Putin when he sees him.

To be honest, Georgia invaded South Ossetia and proceeded to ethnically cleanse the local population. The fact that Russia invaded in turn was highly justified - just not in the west because it was in our interests to support Georgia, as Russia is a potential rival of the US.

The United States has used torture exactly three times since Sept. 11th to obtain information, all of which were before the Iraq war. The incidents at Abu Ghraib were deplorable and those responsible were punished. They violated the UCMJ, the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

There has never been evidence given that many of the detainees who have been tortured were enemy combatants. They have been denied trials (a violation of human rights) for years now.

As for torture, here's a source: http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/us0706/ And another one: http://www.slate.com/id/2100014/ More than three incidents.

Many perpetrators have not been punished. Or did you miss this? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5253160.stm The perpetrators were not punished.

And here is a fun one Cuchonchuir: Define torture. then explain to me how I support torture under your definition of torture, citing examples of things I have written.

[FONT=Geneva,Arial][SIZE=-1]“No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.”
—The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 5 (1948)
[/SIZE][/FONT]
You support someone for president who supports torture. Bang. Done. Any moral person would not support someone who does something they find morally abhorrent.

Terrorists do not value their lives. Their sole goal is to kill you in the name of Allah.

You're confusing 'terrorist' and 'muslim extremist'.

Giving them creature comforts will not placate them. They will eat your meal, thank you graciously, and then detonate their suicide vest. You cannot reason with the unreasonable; the only thing they understand is raw, total obliteration.

Actually, this is patently false. Israel has used this tactic with great success. It undercuts their arguments that we are evil, while torture, mass killings of civilians, and inhumane treatment has the exact opposite effect.

Yours is the policy of Neville Chamberlain. How did that work out? Did we achieve "peace in our time?" Did Hitler come to his senses and realize Britain and France really only wanted to be friends, and that he should stop running over Poles and Slovaks and Russians with tanks?

Straw Man attack. Or truly not getting my point attack, not sure which.

And actually what's funny is that the reason Chamberlain tried to appease Hitler is that he knew the British Empire was not in a position to go to war. He purposefully stalled in order to give them time to prepare for war.

This is very similar to the air Battle of Britain. The British made London and other cities easy targets for the Luftwaffe in order to lure them away from their fighter production plants, landing strips, and radar facilities.

Adolf Hitler, Bennito Mussolini,

^ Fascism is an extreme form of capitalism. Fascism is the ruling classes attempt to reign in a growing working-class movement. BTW, the worst atrocities in China have been perpetrated after their shift to capitalism.

You give no numbers or sources for any of them, then make outrageous claims.

Here's a claim that's simply accurate: before European settlement of North America, there were (by a conservative estimate) 100 million natives on what is now the US. Today, there are approximately 1 million.

This is the worst genocide in history, perpetrated purposefully by capitalists. Yes, even the introduction of foreign diseases was used as a weapon, such as giving smallpox infected blankets to tribes after forcibly relocating them in the winter.

Another interesting tidbit; Hitler got the idea for concentration camps for enacting his 'final solution' from the (capitalist) British government, who used them in the Boer War. In fact, he named one camp 'Saxenhausen', or House of the Saxon, in their honor.

You may continue to live in fantasy . . .

Considering the rest of what you say after this is fantastic drivel, this makes me lol.
 
Cuchonchuir said:
You support someone for president who supports torture. Bang. Done. Any moral person would not support someone who does something they find morally abhorrent.
No matter what president comes into office, Gitmo will probably be closed down. John Mccain has said that he felt that the Sumpreme Court case that granted the detainees was a poor decision, granted. But, I fail to see how you can draw the conclusion that John Mccain supports toture. In fact, he has personal experience with the subject, and is one of the few people that has. He has said that toture is horrible, because of the hell he went through in Vietnam. The fact that you think that John Mccain supports toture is beyond me. Reading some enemy combations their rights and toturing someone are two entirely different things.
Peanut-Lover said:
I'm not one to quote religious texts, sheerly(sp?) because their accuracy is questionable. Here's what I get fromt he antichrist:
~Utopian ideology
~Great orator
~Wolf in sheeps clothing
~Appeals to those suffering (the weak)
~Makes promises that he breaks half the term in.
~Wiped out by the army of heaven

Hmm...Adolf Hitler fits most of those. Stalin fits most (he wasn't killed by an army - Truman was a pussy). Napoleon was wiped out by the Brits and Americans. Obama if he gets elected will probably fulfill all of them. I think we can expect massive death and destruction while he's president.over
Finally somebody understands it.



But seriously, your putting words in my mouth. Barak Oboma has been more inconsistant than John Kerry when it comes to the positions he takes on issues. He changes his opinion on a wim in order to make more people like him, and preaches to the masses to make them think he can actually do something like universal health care and what not. I don't think that Oboma will necessary break the promises he makes, but he is making promises he can't keep (or he'll just change his mind when it becomes unpopular). That's not the Antichrist, that is an inexperienced politician that doesn't relize what he's doing.
 
I'll be quick since this will otherwise turn into a whole lot of tl;dr posts:

First:

Your source misquotes Palin and your logical conclusion is devoid of logic. Nowhere has Palin ever said she believed in Young Earth Theory, which is only a branch of creationism.

Second:

Socialism in theory is the means of production in the hands of worker. Socialism in practice is the means of production in the hands of an all-powerful government. Theoretical socialism has never been achieved because it is impossible. Autocrats manipulate the working class into supporting The Party, and the working class complies. Usually under death threats.

Fascism is not an extreme form of Capitalism. Hitler's Fascism merely incorporated some corporatism, or the rule of a select few special interests over society. Capitalism is an individualistic system, corporatism is a oligarchical collective. Fascism has much, much more in common with Socialism than Capitalism. Hitler was not a capitalist. He did not support individual economic freedom or free markets, he is therefore by definition not a capitalist. I also note you ignored the rest of the list, and that was rather wise, since Hitler was small-time compared to Stalin and Mao. And further, need I remind you that NaZi is short for German National Socialist Worker's Party? Sounds like an outfit that's real big on capitalism to me.

Israeli appeasement of muslim extremists has done nothing for them. The Palestinian thugs still bomb them daily, and no matter how many "Land for Peace" treaties they are goaded into, the Palestinians will never stop attacking Israel because their goal is not land, it is extermination of Israel. If Yassir Arafat did not make this clear to you, I do not know what will.

Third:

You have not substantiated where either I or McCain supports torture. Your hasty retreat is an indication of the weakness of your position. Bang. Done. Any Intellectually Honest person would not run away.

Oh, and your quote fails on even basic English standards. You cannot have a definition of the word torture that contains the word torture in it. Torture is Torture is tortured logic, circular too. Unless you assume the second clause to be a redundancy with the first. Which, by definition torture would have to be cruel and unusual. If it were cruel and usual it would not be torture. If it were not cruel and unusual, it would also not be torture.

In short, because international interrogation tactics are usual, they cannot be considered torture. Unless you're using a tortured definition of torture, whereby anything that sounds icky or unappealing is torture, but that is an arbitrary standard.

Oh, btw. Why would a man who was brutally tortured support torture? No, don't bother explaining. McCain supports torture is your premise. No amount of facts will sway you, because any fact, relevant experience, or other persuasive instrument will not make you budge. In your mind McCain supports torture at a basic level, and all other information is filtered through "McCain supports torture" first. Even if McCain were to walk up to your house and knock on your door and denounce torture in front of you, you would simply say he is lying.

Fourth:

Krauthammer was first quoted using the Bush Doctrine. Therefore no matter how Right or Left Wing he is, he would know what it is. If Charles Krauthammer told you 2 + 2 = 4, would you deny it because he is right wing, and therefore is biased towards answering 4? You are free to have your own opinions, but you are not free to have your own facts, sir.

Fifth:

My sources vis-a-vis hatred of Sarah Palin are all left-wing Democrats who say as much or are known as such. The current platform of the Democratic Party seeks to expand government as much as possible. Barack Obama specifically wants to nationalize health care, a staple of a socialist society. That is textbook socialism in practice. They are only centrist compared to the Communist Party, and thankfully in America, the Communist Party is hated and ridiculed. America rewards success, socialism punishes it. The end goal of socialism is equality of outcome. That is why it seeks to have one entity control all facets of society, so that redistribution of income can be spread across the masses.

Of course, socialism doesn't produce anything, it is a zero sum game, rationing a fixed sized pie to ever more members. Which is where abortion and euthanasia come in, interestingly enough. Kill diseased or unworthy children before they are born and the elderly when they become inconvenient. Then you have more of the pie to ration to healthy people. But if people don't take care of their health, well, that is what prohibitions and mandates are for. That is why the most highly socialist countries had a control economy. They were dismal failures of course, but utopia is on its way once we just get the right people.

The dirty little secret of socialism is that they realize that a single autocrat can't take care of everything, or even most things. That is why they made deals with the media. See, The media are an integral part of every Socialist's information control mechanism. A Socialist will grant the media job security as long as they say the right things. The CEOs will continue to make huge bucks. It's permanent job security free from market forces. That is why the major press in almost every country is left of the viewers. A Socialist autocrat means permanent job security, and instead of having to worry about expenses, CEOs can just gladhand as the government pays the employee salaries. Because really, socialists don't care about the proletariat, they care about the trappings of power. Any stated position they have against the bourgeois is purely rhetoric.

I mean, you don't really think Stalin cared about the farm workers as much as the farm owner, do you?

Every Stalin has his Pravda, just like every Obama has his MSNBC. The media is permanently enfranchised as an information control outlet in an authoritarian society. For more information, read George Orwell's 1984.

We are at war with EastAsia. We have always been at war with EastAsia. This is Keith Olbermann, reporting.

Sixth (can't let this go by either):

The US, Britain, and Israel do not engage in terrorism. We've had bans on assassination for decades for one, and second, we do not send fighters in civilian clothes to damage other countries landmarks and population centers to inspire terror and communicate political demands. That is what Terrorism is, and no First World Nation engages in it.

We have not engaged in Mass Killings, either: you're looking for Saddam Hussein. He's dead now. We captured him and the Iraqis hung him after finding him guilty a full and fair trial in the Iraqi court system. Since then the Iraqis have had a referendum and 2 full elections. Honestly, Mass Killings? Where did you get your history from, Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky?

Moreover, Georgia did not invade South Ossetia. You cannot invade your own territory. It would be like saying the US Army invaded New York. Russia had been piling in Russian Passports and stirring up animosity with agitators for quite some time, and then made his move under the auspice of protecting native Russias. This is why Russian tanks were 15 miles for Georgia's capital, despite that capital being nowhere near disputed territory. And how did Russia get so much armor down there so fast. Bet your bottom dollar Putin had it all planned. Unlike Obama, Putin is a geopolitical genius. An evil genius, but a genius nonetheless. In fact, Putin hopes for an Obama Presidency so that he can dupe the gullible 1/2 term Senator into a situation he cannot possibly win.
 
I think the Iraq war counts as a pretty fair mass killing. Brilliant, we've spread the ridiculous capitalist democracy to Iraq and have killed far more than Saddam ever did.
 
As I have neither the time nor the desire to respond to your hyperbolic diatribe, I shall simply tackle the closing inanity.

Moreover, Georgia did not invade South Ossetia. You cannot invade your own territory. It would be like saying the US Army invaded New York.

Playing semantics does nothing but distract from the fact that Georgia was, indeed, the instigator of the violence, which Condoleezza Rice herself admitted in her bitter denunciation of Russia's overreaction.[1] On a side note, I suppose the fact that 99% of South Ossetians support independence[2] means nothing; after all, paying attention to such interesting tidbits might give the impression that the United States actually cares about democracy.


Russia had been piling in Russian Passports and stirring up animosity with agitators for quite some time, and then made his move under the auspice of protecting native Russias. This is why Russian tanks were 15 miles for Georgia's capital, despite that capital being nowhere near disputed territory. And how did Russia get so much armor down there so fast. Bet your bottom dollar Putin had it all planned.

There is no evidence, however, that Russia was amassing armor with the intent to invade.[3] I like how you conveniently ignore the contrary Russian claims that the United States orchestrated the event, which hold similar weight. Russia lost the "propaganda war"[4] however, so it is no wonder which view has become more prevalent.


Unlike Obama, Putin is a geopolitical genius. An evil genius, but a genius nonetheless. In fact, Putin hopes for an Obama Presidency so that he can dupe the gullible 1/2 term Senator into a situation he cannot possibly win.

I suppose Obama is simply "evil" then. Though I do not know why you think Putin would want to "dupe" Obama; they are both "socialists" according to you, so shouldn't they get along just fine with one another?

On that note: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War#End_of_the_Cold_War_.281985.E2.80.9391.29

Yes, it really did end.

REFERENCES

1. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7623555.stm
2. http://www.regnum.ru/english/737823.html
3. http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gj_jyRnqBYekXz2MyszBj6k_ZMtw
4. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7562611.stm
 
Deck, you fail to comprehend anything I have said. I am sorry for you. This is not a debate, because you do not debate, but instead spew bile as vehemently as you can, since you lack proof for your arguments.

Your lack of knowledge of anything but your own small niche is obvious to pretty much everyone else here. All of your answers are just the regurgitated propaganda you have been fed from birth.

You may say the same thing about me, but I live in the same country you do - who exactly indoctrinated me? For right or wrong I have looked at the evidence and formed my own conclusions.

You have no sources other than from people who hold the same views as you, or from sources that have nothing to do with the current topic.

I think the Iraq war counts as a pretty fair mass killing. Brilliant, we've spread the ridiculous capitalist democracy to Iraq and have killed far more than Saddam ever did.

That's true, not to mention the hundreds of thousands who were killed as a result of our sanctions, most of whom were children.

You're a laughing stock on politics here, judging from the number of people who hope you are merely a clever satirist.
 
Stop. Anything having to do with Georgia, or capitalist murderers shall be moved to this topic, please: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1493054#post1493054

This is an election topic, not a "socialism > capitalism" or "capitalist = murderers" thread. Post comments there as a background, and cite comments over there to put here (basically, state your point, post a link to the post where you give massive background, and keep this thread shorter).





On the topic of Iraq, it was gone about in a wrong way, I'll admit that as a conservative - what we should have done was moved in, occupied Iraq, and take their oil in exchjange for rebuilding their country.

Iraq war cost say, x billion dollars total. (x is a nice number, because I don't have figures).
Iraqis, since the American invasion, have pulled in 3 times that amount in OIL alone. This was according to a report published not too long ago.
You know who I blame for this problem - Democrats and commie assholes that say "no war".

The democrats said that they'd support the war in Iraq if and only if the oil was not put into America's pockets - basically, no blood for oil.

Iraqis, in the meanwhile, have been stocking their treasury full of money to prepare for when we leave.

The Iraqis didn't suffer that badly when we invaded - I consider a little electricity better than no electricity. (Socialist Dictatorship vs Capitalism). The rebuilding was slower than anticipated, I'll admit, but I blame Iran for that problem.


Furthermore, I will diss my senator (speaking of Iran) - what a fucking bitch Clinton was to say that she wouldn't go to an anti-Iran protest on Tuesday because PAlin couldn't be there. What a fucking bitch she was to put party politics ahead of the common good.

Want to know why Palin isn't going? Here's a hint - its based on Clinton's decision to not go. In fact, politicians of either party have been told not to go because of loud mouth bitch that the New Yorkers elected. And McCain made this clear - that because Clinton wouldn't go, Palin was asked to not attend, so as to prevent a stir up of controversy.
 
Interestily enough, the "bailout" that the Federal Government did for Wall Street a few days ago costed as much as the Iraq War. Just for a little prepective.
 
Thats only a part of it.

Estimates have it that if the Democrats get what they want, the bailout will be 2 trillion dollars, bailing out those that were irresponsible with their mortgage.

I hate my congressmen (Chuck Schumer is as much a fuktard as Clinton, and Rengal is even worse).

Edit: Actually, the bailout without housing assistance involved will be greater than 1 trillion. Thats twice the cost of the Iraqi war.
 
This is an election topic, not a "socialism > capitalism" or "capitalist = murderers" thread. Post comments there as a background, and cite comments over there to put here (basically, state your point, post a link to the post where you give massive background, and keep this thread shorter).

Fair enough, but the topic of Georgia/Ossetia/Russia is directly related to a major election issue: foreign policy. Socialism only became an issue after Deck Knight began his ad hominem attacks against "left-wing democrats".

On the topic of Iraq, it was gone about in a wrong way, I'll admit that as a conservative - what we should have done was moved in, occupied Iraq, and take their oil in exchjange for rebuilding their country.

Isn't that basically what happened? In any event, we had no right to invade a sovereign country that posed no credible threat to anyone. Even if the stated purpose of the invasion was to depose a tyrant, which it wasn't, recent history conveniently slips from mind: namely the fact that the current administration and its mentors strengthened that dictator by supporting his aggression against Iran and imposing a decade of sanctions. I find it rather hypocritical that you denounce Russia for intervening to protect a territory whose sovereignty it has long recognized, yet extol the virtuous Americans for their destruction ("liberation") of Iraq.

Iraq war cost say, x billion dollars total. (x is a nice number, because I don't have figures).
Iraqis, since the American invasion, have pulled in 3 times that amount in OIL alone. This was according to a report published not too long ago.
You know who I blame for this problem - Democrats and commie assholes that say "no war".

Until you cite the report in question, it is of no use to anyone. A tip: if you want to avoid socialism v. capitalism discussion, it might be a good idea not to refer to "commie assholes".

The Iraqis didn't suffer that badly when we invaded - I consider a little electricity better than no electricity. (Socialist Dictatorship vs Capitalism). The rebuilding was slower than anticipated, I'll admit, but I blame Iran for that problem.

I guess 600 000 dead isn't suffering badly.[1] Blaming (Arab) state socialism (which, to clarify my position, I do not favor) for Iraq's economic woes simply ignores other contributing factors.[2] For example, after the UN sanctions were removed in 2003, Iraq's economy surged, topping the list of fastest growing economies at 53 per cent.[3] The aside about Iran is interesting: how exactly have they slowed the rebuilding process?

Furthermore, I will diss my senator (speaking of Iran) - what a fucking bitch Clinton was to say that she wouldn't go to an anti-Iran protest on Tuesday because PAlin couldn't be there. What a fucking bitch she was to put party politics ahead of the common good.

Want to know why Palin isn't going? Here's a hint - its based on Clinton's decision to not go. In fact, politicians of either party have been told not to go because of loud mouth bitch that the New Yorkers elected. And McCain made this clear - that because Clinton wouldn't go, Palin was asked to not attend, so as to prevent a stir up of controversy.


I must confess, you rather lost me with this fulmination.

REFERENCES

1. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/11/world/middleeast/11casualties.html
2. http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761567303_7/Iraq.html
3. http://www.dinarindex.com/#/statistics/4516068143
 
http://zfacts.com/p/447.html 580.7 billion dollars is the cost


This was back in March, but its pretty clear over the oil revenues - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23578542/

"Whereas Iraqi officials estimated $35 billion in oil revenues last fall, Bowen said the final number is likely to be closer to $60 billion."
60 billion in one season. 60 billion last fall alone. Combine that with $140 a barrel, and you have a lot more now. Okay, revenues may not have been two to three times the cost of the war, but thats what I saw in about 5 seperate reports. Misprint? Regardless, oil could have paid 1/10 of our war, and it may have been even better had it been pumped out properly from the beginning (I don't know how many of you remember the well fires, so yeah).
 
I think the Iraq war counts as a pretty fair mass killing. Brilliant, we've spread the ridiculous capitalist democracy to Iraq and have killed far more than Saddam ever did.

The United States has only ever killed Baathist soldiers and legitimate military targets. Saddam Hussein used chemicals on his own people. The people who have done most of the bombings in Iraq have been Islamist extremists. When that mosque in Samarra was attacked, guess who was behind it? Jihadists trying to exploit the Sunni/Shia divide that has existed for hundreds of years. All Saddam did was suppress it with an autocratic rule. Now Shias, Sunnis, and Kurds are working together for the most part.

How many times did Barack Obama and Harry "the war is lost" Reid want to pull out before we could accomplish this goal? McCain supported the surge even when he was deadwood in the primaries, and he turned out to be right.

Your ignorance of what constitutes a Mass Killing is indicative of the worthlessness of discussing this matter any further with you.

Nevemind that "ridiculous capitalist democracy" has made the Iraqis freer and richer than before. But nevermind objective standards, a vile autocrat has been ousted and freedom around the world has increased. Now is truly a time to mourn.

Cuchonchuir, thank you for posting a boatload of trope. Your powers of projection are strong as always, but I see no point in further discussing anything with you. The only "small niche" around here is the willingness to ignore history or serious analysis of reality. Now I'm all fine and good with people disagreeing with me, but please, I can't take anyone who will argue with a straight keyboard that the Iraq War was a Mass Killing. That is laughable in the face of the man who was ousted in that war, a man who used chemical weapons against the Kurds and his own people and engaged in true Mass Killings. As a matter of fact, the war only lasted about a month before the Baathists were rolled aside. Everything after that was democratic power transfer and all of the sectarian issues that were simply exacerbated by Saddam Hussein, who showered the 20% of Sunnis with positions of leadership and power while supressing the 80% Shiite population.

Now, if you want to accuse Bush on reneging on his promise not to engage in Nation Building, that's a perfectly legitimate criticism. But Bush and everyone else saw it on 9/11: The world changed that day, and quite frankly the rules of global diplomacy changed. Thank God that terrorists only hijacked planes, imagine if they had a suitcase nuke and blew it up over New York? That is what is at stake now.

Quite frankly, terrorists picked the wrong time to attack America. Bill Clinton might have abided by having New York attacked repeatedly and treating it like a police action, but thankfully Bubba is out. Bubba got lucky, he got to ride a dot com boom while using the Oval Office as a house of ill repute. Well, nobody ever said William Jefferson Clinton wasn't lucky. Course, he was impeached... This is why in 100 years, Bill Clinton will be nothing but a punchline, whereas Bush will be either hated or idolized, one of the two.

Insofar as the article Luduan:

BAGHDAD, Oct. 10 — A team of American and Iraqi public health researchers has estimated that 600,000 civilians have died in violence across Iraq since the 2003 American invasion, the highest estimate ever for the toll of the war here.

This does not say the US Army or Marines were going around deliberately killing people, as the term Mass Killing implies. What happened in Iraq after the fall of Saddam was a sectarian war, and it would have happened eventually anyway. Further, the end of the article makes multiple disclaimers about extrapolation, etc.

Saddam stirred tensions between the two groups and violently suppressed them. It would have happened eventually, whether at Saddam's natural death or later, but in the meantime Saddam was more than happy to provide material and logistical support for terrorist organizations.

And moreover, as horrible as the sectarian war was, The Surge mostly managed to cut it down and get it over with in a few years instead of turning into a decades-long bloodbath and haven for chaos right on two major rivers. It is far from over as General Petreaus and the other commanders readily admit.

Nobody ever said the Iraq War, or any war in history, is without a human cost. But to compare the fallout of an inevitable sectarian war to a deliberate genocide carried out be a foreign power is ridiculous. Bush's light-footed initial strategy was flawed and caused many needless deaths, but eventually he got it right, with some prodding from McCain and a brave few others.
 
The United States has only ever killed Baathist soldiers and legitimate military targets.
This simply isnt true.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/incidents/x038

I could find a lot more, but surely this is enough. 55 children.

Do legitimate military targets include powerstations, hotels and bridges? Because I would think most people would not agree with that assessment.

The people who have done most of the bombings in Iraq have been Islamist extremists.
Are you sure that the islamist extremists have done more bombing than the americans themselves? I mean the islamists havent got any planes.. It takes them a long time..

Your ignorance of what constitutes a Mass Killing is indicative of the worthlessness of discussing this matter any further with you.
55 children. And that is only one out of many events.

Nevemind that "ridiculous capitalist democracy" has made the Iraqis freer and richer than before. But nevermind objective standards, a vile autocrat has been ousted and freedom around the world has increased. Now is truly a time to mourn.
This isnt true. And the only reason they were poor under Saddam were the sanctions placed on them.

Have a nice day.
 
On a different note, it seems that the Palin train is coming to a stop and support is starting to fall. It seems that people have finally realized what she really is.

Also, her e-mail got "hacked" into by some guy at 4chan, lol.

Quote for truth. At the moment I really think voting for McCain/Palin would be a loss to our country... The economy is suffering horribly, we had the worst day in economic history a couple of days ago, the worst stock market crash since right after 9/11. In the last week I have heard of 3 people I know losing their jobs. Bush's best accomplishment while in office was putting us into horrible debt. McCain was always all for Bush's policies and against raising minimum wage, and also wants to continue the war as long as he is around. We pay billions a month for that war. McCain does not know what its like to struggle financially, he owns more houses than he can count. How can someone like that even care about the people in America who are on the street right now?

His vice president is even worst. The dirt from Palin never stops coming, it's too much to even put in this thread. Her radical Christianity, is just as bad as radical Islam. This is not an opinion either, there is more than enough evidence to show this woman is all for censorship, she is "anti-freedom" so long as it goes along old biblical rules.

I come from Los Angeles, a city where there is a mile street (or longer) full of homeless people and criminals who are that way because they cannot make it on minimum wage. It's called skid row. I live in this city and see the poorest of the poor trying to make it, and they can't.

I sure as hell don't think McCain would give a shit about them, but I believe Obama would. This is just what my gut tells me from what I've seen from them both. McCain is for the rich who are already well off. Obama is for everyone, except the very rich, but they're already rich to begin with anyways, and chances are, when they're that rich they will stay that way.

I will vote for Obama no matter what anyone else tells me or tries to "debate" to me. I just think it's logical to the best financial interest of our country and to the benefit for the *poor who cannot even survive right now if something doesn't change.
 
The United States has only ever killed Baathist soldiers and legitimate military targets.

Before reading this I was not aware of the unlimited nature of human disingenuousness.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9] Those links come from the first 2 pages of Google alone. I am sure scores more could be found were one to make an effort to do so. A former Marine Staff Sergeant described US actions in Iraq as 'genocide' and 'admitted the U.S. treatment of Iraqi civilians is fueling the Iraqi resistance.'[10] A Human Right Watch report from December 2003 says that upwards of a thousand civilian deaths in the initial invasion were caused by the negligent use of cluster munitions.[11]

Saddam Hussein used chemicals on his own people. The people who have done most of the bombings in Iraq have been Islamist extremists. When that mosque in Samarra was attacked, guess who was behind it? Jihadists trying to exploit the Sunni/Shia divide that has existed for hundreds of years. All Saddam did was suppress it with an autocratic rule. Now Shias, Sunnis, and Kurds are working together for the most part.

No one is doubting or justifying these atrocities. They cannot, however, be used to provide justification for the United States' illegal[12][13][14] destruction of a sovereign nation.

Your ignorance of what constitutes a Mass Killing is indicative of the worthlessness of discussing this matter any further with you.

Funny, I could say the same thing to you.

Now I'm all fine and good with people disagreeing with me, but please, I can't take anyone who will argue with a straight keyboard that the Iraq War was a Mass Killing.

I would say the preventable deaths of innocent civilians of a state we attacked illegally (as per Article 2 (4) of the UN Charter)[15] constitutes a mass killing. The growth in sectarian violence you mentioned was the direct result of the lawless chaos following the invasion, which allowed militant Islamists to murder religious minorities.[16]

That is laughable in the face of the man who was ousted in that war, a man who used chemical weapons against the Kurds and his own people and engaged in true Mass Killings.

Saddam's atrocities do not justify the United States' atrocities.

But Bush and everyone else saw it on 9/11: The world changed that day, and quite frankly the rules of global diplomacy changed.

How exactly did the world change? By providing a corrupt administration with the mass fear and propaganda weapon it needed to launch a "crusade"?[17] By allowing that same government to curtail basic civil liberties? By breeding religious hatred and intolerance and "dividing the innocent from the innocent"?[18]

Quite frankly, terrorists picked the wrong time to attack America. Bill Clinton might have abided by having New York attacked repeatedly and treating it like a police action, but thankfully Bubba is out. Bubba got lucky, he got to ride a dot com boom while using the Oval Office as a house of ill repute. Well, nobody ever said William Jefferson Clinton wasn't lucky. Course, he was impeached... This is why in 100 years, Bill Clinton will be nothing but a punchline, whereas Bush will be either hated or idolized, one of the two.

This ad hominem against Bill Clinton is both absurd and irrelevant.

This does not say the US Army or Marines were going around deliberately killing people, as the term Mass Killing implies. What happened in Iraq after the fall of Saddam was a sectarian war, and it would have happened eventually anyway. Further, the end of the article makes multiple disclaimers about extrapolation, etc.

Saddam stirred tensions between the two groups and violently suppressed them. It would have happened eventually, whether at Saddam's natural death or later, but in the meantime Saddam was more than happy to provide material and logistical support for terrorist organizations.

And moreover, as horrible as the sectarian war was, The Surge mostly managed to cut it down and get it over with in a few years instead of turning into a decades-long bloodbath and haven for chaos right on two major rivers. It is far from over as General Petreaus and the other commanders readily admit.

Nobody ever said the Iraq War, or any war in history, is without a human cost. But to compare the fallout of an inevitable sectarian war to a deliberate genocide carried out be a foreign power is ridiculous. Bush's light-footed initial strategy was flawed and caused many needless deaths, but eventually he got it right, with some prodding from McCain and a brave few others.

Well, they are going around killing people, because that is what their job entails. Deliberate massacre of Iraqi civilians may or may not occur; however, the military does recklessly target areas of negligible strategic significance with little concern for civilian casualties. "It would have happened eventually anyway" is something you can neither prove nor use as justification for US actions in exacerbating civil violence.


REFERENCES

01. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/07/28/MN3U120FQB.DTL
02. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0925-02.htm
03. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/23/AR2005122301471_pf.html
04. http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/09/19/news/ML-Iraq.php
05. http://articles.latimes.com/2007/oct/22/world/fg-iraq22
06. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080917/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/as_us_afghanistan
07. http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/10/11/iraq.main.int/index.html
08. http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/9...illing_76_civilians_in_afghanistan_airstrike/
09. http://presscue.com/node/43592
10. http://www.democracynow.org/2004/5/24/ex_u_s_marine_i_killed
11. http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/12/12/iraq6582.htm
12. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3661134.stm
13. http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/apr/24/uk.iraq
14. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/nov/20/usa.iraq1
15. http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/
16. http://newsinitiative.org/story/2007/07/26/an_ancient_religion_endangered_by
17. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/39266_crusade18.shtml
18. http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2005/11/28/journalistRecountsWarExperience
 
I've been mulling how Obama continues to overperform expectations in Indiana, and I looked at the past trends. As it turns out, 3 Democrats since WWII have done especially well in Indiana - where their margin in Indiana was less than 9 points below their national average (no Democrat has outperformed their national numbers in Indiana since 1948). These Democrats were Harry Truman (1948), Adlai Stevenson (1952 and 1956), and Walter Mondale (1984). What do all of these candidates have in common? They're all from the Midwest (Truman Missouri; Stevenson Illinois; and Mondale Minnesota).

It strikes me that there has been quite a dearth of Midwestern candidates since WWII. Democrats have tended to come from the South or Massachusetts; Republicans tend to come from the West (I'm counting Texas as both "South" and "West"). Hubert Humphrey stands out as an underperformer in the Midwest; however, I'd wager that George Wallace caused the discrepancy.
 
Some of the most objective and intelligent commentary regarding the presidential race that I have yet to find.

"The emphasis on change in this race is farcical. Regardless of which candidate wins the election, little will change, and even less will change for the better."

"Democracy works by ejecting bad governments, and that's why the Republicans must lose... If [they] win again, what signal would that send? Essentially: "it doesn't matter how much we screw up, we'll stay in power anyway". Governments should be kept on their toes, and that means ejecting proven failures."

"Let us face the facts that anyone who can become a major party candidate must have learnt and played the political game."


^Basically echoing my previous sentiments in this thread. There is very little to distinguish between the candidates.

"As in business, leaders lead by inspiring action, something Obama is clearly very good at."

^Sums up my standpoint nicely.

(Quotes have been corrected for spelling/paraphrased for clarity).
 
Back
Top