Election 2008, United States

[DM]

Right. Did you know that he's Dick Cheney's 8th cousin? I swear.

I'm really glad that Haitian ripped this post apart before I was forced to, because that would've been such a headache.

In the primaries, I wanted Kucinich and Paul. I knew neither had a chance though, a fact that was made staggeringly obvious when Paul wasn't allowed to take part in the televised debates.

I voted in the thread poll for Obama, but the more I think about it I might end up voting Liberarian, which is where I fall politically.

 

[Expert Evan]

Here's a history of how I voted in past Presidential elections:

1984: Reagan, felt no need for change, and having Mondale as opponent whom was VP for the Carter did not go well with me.

1988: Bush Sr., even though I did not like Quayle as his choice for VP and that he was no JFK, I still liked Bush at the time recollecting he was a former Republican primary candidate back in 1980 when Reagan dominated. Of course his "Read my lips" campaign quote would come back to haunt him.

1992: Bush Sr., as I absolutely did not feel comfortable with Clinton getting elected. True Bush was unpopular for domestic problems but he was great with foreign affairs. Clinton got popular after the democrat convention and Bush could not catch up as another disaster occurred right after the republican convention: Hurricane Andrew.

1996: Dole, I still disliked Clinton and wanted anybody else but Clinton in office. At the time the Republicans regained control of both houses in 1994 and the future looked so bright, but blunders from the congress leaders would lead to their fall in 2006. Dole's dull response to Clinton's State of the Union address did not go well with him, though he would go on to host Saturday Night Live and be a spokesperson for viagra commercials later on.

2000: Bush, as I felt Gore was a continuation of Clinton, and Bush was a successful governor of Texas. Since then I've likened Gore's awareness efforts from "Inconvenient Truth".

2004: Bush, though was considering Kerry earlier on due to my discontent with the Iraq war especially with the Abu Ghraib prison tortures and the economic outsourcing of jobs to developing countries such as India and China (sorry Shiv & Kumar & company). Kerry's anti-war past made me feel uncomfortable as it came down to whom I felt was a better commander-in-chief.

2008: So far I have a favorable impression of both Barack Obama & John McCain though various factors to be determine will influence my final decision. On the state level, I am definitely re-electing Congressman Christopher Shays(R) in CT-4.

 

[God.]

I'm really glad that Haitian ripped this post apart before I was forced to, because that would've been such a headache.

In the primaries, I wanted Kucinich and Paul. I knew neither had a chance though, a fact that was made staggeringly obvious when Paul wasn't allowed to take part in the televised debates.

I voted in the thread poll for Obama, but the more I think about it I might end up voting Liberarian, which is where I fall politically.

Yeah I really don't understand people who say "I wanted Kucinich or Paul" ... at all. Paul is a free-market Libertarian(lol) and Kicinich is one of the most "socialist" candidates of both parties.

And man could you seriously vote for Bob Barr? Bob Barr?????

 

[Great Sage]

I am against homosexual rights because of my religion. If you have a problem with that than thats too bad. But marriage is an institution, between a man and a woman. Plain and simple.

Why is marriage an institution? What makes it an institution? Also, even if you refer to the Bible, there is nothing in it that talks about homosexuals.

 

[God.]

Letting men keep specific women all to themselves while they still go around fucking whatever non-married woman they want ... girls being married away for business contacts ... having to stay in an abusive and dangerous relationship because of the social stigma of divorce ... AWESOME INSTITUTION!

 

[God.]

If someone wants to kill someone, they aren't going to consider the consequences. There is nothing that can deter the will of someone who wants to kill. They know their life is over if they are caught death penalty or not. I am for the death penalty from a justice standpoint. It even says in the constitution "Establish Justice" and if someone wants to kill a lot of people or murder a pregnant woman, that person deserves justice at the highest degree which means death.

No that person is extremely fucked up and needs to be excessively rehabilitated and understood. Maybe they should never be released back into society, but they need to be thoroughly understood so that warning signs in earlier criminals and delinquent children can be noticed and they can be psychologically helped before it is too late. No one just wakes up in the morning and says "i think i am going to be a dick and kill someone today." No, there is something psychologically wrong with murderers, and although it is satisfying in a primal sense to kill them, they should not be given up on(no one in any world-class society should), they should be understood not only for their own future mental health, but so that younger people in risk of being put in such a psychological position in their future can be helped. Everything is more or less a product of their circumstances and upbringing, murderers included. "Justice" in the sense you are thinking of means nothing, it is pointless revenge that does not help the future of our society and our future safety.

At least I am not influenced by the left wing media like every other college aged person alive.

Gotta concede on that one. Still, at least they support things like universal healthcare.

But I guess when you are living off of your parents money its easy to be a liberal.

This makes no sense really. Most conservatives tend to either be born very well off, or be extremely poor and are just taken advantage of by the rich-born conservatives through exploitation and manipulation of religion and race relations.

 

[Hipmonlee]

Yeah I really don't understand people who say "I wanted Kucinich or Paul" ... at all. Paul is a free-market Libertarian(lol) and Kicinich is one of the most "socialist" candidates of both parties.

They were the two who had any level of integrity. I mean, I think libertarianism is an incredibly specious concept, but at least it's an ethos.. I'd prefer someone commited to libertarianism than someone who acts only in contradictory half measures.

I mean I was backing Hillary (after kucinich), cause I thought she was lying her ass off, and I had this crazy hope that it might be because she actually gives a shit about something.

[edit] - also they both would leave iraq.

No that person is extremely fucked up and needs to be excessively rehabilitated and understood. Maybe they should never be released back into society, but they need to be thoroughly understood so that warning signs in earlier criminals and delinquent children can be noticed and they can be psychologically helped before it is too late. No one just wakes up in the morning and says "i think i am going to be a dick and kill someone today." No, there is something psychologically wrong with murderers, and although it is satisfying in a primal sense to kill them, they should not be given up on(no one in any world-class society should), they should be understood not only for their own future mental health, but so that younger people in risk of being put in such a psychological position in their future can be helped. Everything is more or less a product of their circumstances and upbringing, murderers included. "Justice" in the sense you are thinking of means nothing, it is pointless revenge that does not help the future of our society and our future safety.

Psychopaths are born that way. The only degree upbringing affects them is basically in terms of how bad a criminal they will become. Though apparently they often stop at around middle age for unknown reasons. There is a pretty strong case for the death penalty for Psychopaths.. Though it definitely deserves a lot of study.

Have a nice day.

 

[TheSpinner]

I see this election as possibly a forecast of change. Both Obama and Hilary are special (in running for president). One is a woman, while the other is part of a minority group. It's an interesting circumstance, and I'm not sure whether to consider it a good or bad thing. Usually, I would be happy with change, but this election comes at such an unstable moment in history.

Personally, I'm voting for Obama. He identifies with the middle/lower class much better then McCain or Hilary - my opinion, at least. At such a confusing and troubled time (especially with our relations to other countries) I can see his interpersonal skills being very useful.

Of course, I'm 15 and can't vote, so my opinion doesn't really matter.

 

[Hipmonlee]

I wouldnt say your opinion doesnt matter, just that you wont be able to vote yourself.

And like I say, if you could vote your vote would be essentially valueless anyway. I am pretty sure in the history of elections there has never been a win by 1 vote. And if there were I am sure it would have so many legal issues that you would probably just have to vote again or something anyway.

So dont be afraid to voice your opinions. I mean I'm from New Zealand, so I wont be voting either, but my opinion is just as valid as anyone elses (well almost).

Have a nice day.

 

[DM]

They were the two who had any level of integrity. I mean, I think libertarianism is an incredibly specious concept, but at least it's an ethos.. I'd prefer someone commited to libertarianism than someone who acts only in contradictory half measures.

Exactly. They were the primary candidates that really stood out to me as NOT being politicians... they were real people, with real ideas, and they weren't afraid to ruffle feathers. When someone realizes they have little chance of winning, you'll hear some very interesting and candid things coming from theirs mouths.

And man could you seriously vote for Bob Barr? Bob Barr?????

http://www.bobbarr2008.com/issues/

I don't disagree with a single thing on there. As a matter of fact, I strongly agree with each and every point.

 

[unceunce]

Ron Paul is conservative, all the other republicans today are neo-conservatives. I really wanted Paul to win in the primaries, but, as mentioned before, he wasn't allowed to speak at all at debates. McCain and Mitt both got 20+minutes while he got 3 minutes to vote.

Really, the person who wins the primaries is the person with the most CNN+FOX appearances. Everyone else just gets screwed over, as many Americans just don't care about the candidates and their thoughts. I've overheard political discussions just about everywhere between the common man/woman, and they mostly go:

Obama: "He'll bring change to America! Hope for all!" (usually, when asked how, they have no idea.)
McCain: "He's experienced!!1!1! He's republican, and I have to vote republican!" (I don't get why people have to always vote republican or democrat. My family is traditionally democrat, but I support Ron Paul, a republican. I guess it's the 'I don't wanna think that much about it, so I'll pick a party' syndrome"
Hillary: "She's a woman, and she's a Clinton! NOOAH!" (this is pretty much all of Georgia.)

Then again, I live in the south.

Since it's Obama vs. McCain, I'd most likely vote Obama. (I get to vote in 2 years, so this is just my opinion.)

 

[Deck Knight]

Letting men keep specific women all to themselves while they still go around fucking whatever non-married woman they want ... girls being married away for business contacts ... having to stay in an abusive and dangerous relationship because of the social stigma of divorce ... AWESOME INSTITUTION!

Exception = Rule for you, doesn't it?

Considering that Sex and the City can even get ratings and we now have no-fault divorce, a basic level of anecdotal evidence can disprove your assertion, never mind the millions of American families that aren't comprised of adulterers, golddiggers, and abusers.

For a moment there I thought I was reading an akuchi post.

Also LOL Great Sage the Bible never mentions homosexuals? Ever heard of Sodom and Gomorrah? Among other things like being unrepentant sinners, "their men laid with men as they did with women," aka homosexuality. Why would the Bible even mention that specifically if it wasn't in and of itself perversion of the beautiful things God gave us (e.g. the ability to procreate using sexual organs).

Also, what's so great about universal health care? It's left most of Europe and Canada defenseless, overdrawn in entitlement spending, and with substandard care for people who are actually sick. If you're rationing health care and only have a billion dollars, you can buy bandaids by the truckload, but good luck with neurosurgery and chemo. Ted Kennedy is the poster boy for American medical care. If he were in Canada he would have never recieved treatment in time before dying an excruciating death (were he to refuse to pay American doctors to do it on principle, of course. The "American Option" is very popular there).

When the government can start denying you treatment because you're too old or not important enough because they can't foot your bill, you have willingly granted them power over your life and health. The only thing universal about universal health care is the misery it causes, just like every other socialist boondoggle. Government provided single-payer healthcare is nothing more than a first step in a totalitarian eugenics program. Anyone foolish enough to support it should pray daily that their health doesn't fail them. They might find their appointment to get their cancer removed postponed - three times in a row. I wonder if ObamaKare covers lobotomy for anyone who doesn't think he can turn granite into gold.

Expert Evan, I urge you to cross Obama off your list for consideration. Among other things, this horrible monster of a human being:

Barack Obama has two children. He opposed the Infants Born Alive Act. In Barack's world, any baby that survives an abortion attempt should be left on a hill to be eaten by wolves, er, I mean, on a cold table until it starves to death.

Obama on Abortion: THIS IS SPARTA!

Barack Obama is a uniter. He has united America hating black preachers and white preachers with your tax dollars earmarked for their churches. When he reconciled his voting record it was the most liberal in the Senate, outflanking Kennedy, Durbin, Schumer, and Clinton. He has mended his suit to wear a lapel pin after declaring its symbolism meaningless previously.

Obama on Unification: "I haven't met a cause I can't unify with your money!"

Barack Obama is tough on war. He will peacefully invade Pakistan to take out Osama bin Laden while holding unilateral unconditional meetings with Mahmound Ahmadinijad. He will not weaponize space and will stunt the development of US combat preparedness in order to ensure a swift and resounding defeat. There will be peace in our time. We'll even be speaking Arabic, I bet!

Obama on War: War is in and of itself bad. Peace through appeasement and surrender!

Barack Obama is a man of faith. Just look at this poster:

Note that this is not the gratuitous bible-thumping of right-wing Christians holding their massive neon crosses high in the air, this is an enlightened faith that has replaced Love with Change. Er... we're working on that typo.

Obama on Faith: I'm somehow Christian even if I support abortion, racism, weakness, and pharisaically large symbols of my Christianity for the purposes of winning elections.

 

[Misty]

lol I'm not even replying to that post.

Here's what I often wonder about social conservatives: do they honestly think they can put the American family (honestly, the Western family - Europe suffers the exact same problems) back together by force? If anything, their strong-armed tactics have only weakened their movement. I can't help but feel that there are far better ways of defeating the "pornocracy" than trying to elect big-government nutcases like Sam Brownback.

 

[umbarsc]

I don't see why someone who is pro-abortion is anti-Christian.

I've never understood why people have so much emotion for an unborn fetus.

It's not even a person, it has no brain, it has no cerebrum. Why should it be treated as such?

 

[Graconos]

Obama is my choice for the presidential election. 3rd party candidates can't win, and McCain is way too much of a warmonger for my tastes. Obama's got nice people skills (which is important for a leader) and is trying to take steps towards peace, such as decreasing the number of nuclear weapons.

 

[God.]

Exception = Rule for you, doesn't it?

Healthy, well-functioning marriages are definitely the exception to the rule actually.

Considering that Sex and the City can even get ratings and we now have no-fault divorce, a basic level of anecdotal evidence can disprove your assertion, never mind the millions of American families that aren't comprised of adulterers, golddiggers, and abusers.

I was giving an overview of marriage as an institution in the past. Now that we have easier divorces and the long-held beliefs about marriage are beginning to be challenged it has gotten a whole lot better as an institution in the past few years

And yeah where does Obama support racism

 

[Deck Knight]

I don't see why someone who is pro-abortion is anti-Christian.

I've never understood why people have so much emotion for an unborn fetus.

It's not even a person, it has no brain, it has no cerebrum. Why should it be treated as such?

First: The Sixth Commandment is pretty clear: thou shalt not murder. Murder is the premeditated taking of another human being's life. Since every medical or surgical abortion is planned, they are all premeditated.

Second: Define "person." Human being is sufficient enough for me. You see, the last time people talked about human beings who weren't really "persons", they were justifying slavery.

This pic came from is just another eugenics apologist site (overpopulation.org). This is a 7-week fetus. It clearly has a head and its brain is controlling growth and tissue creation.

This according to their site is 9-10 weeks. It has brain, cerebrum, arms, and legs. If you can't feel emotion for this little human as it is mercilessly killed by the functional equivalent of a three speed blender, I have to wonder which among the two of you lacks a brain.

I simply believe that human life should always be protected whenever possible, and that it is bleeding obvious to anyone that a pregnant female human is carrying an actual human baby. That you think we need some legal agency to stamp "person" on people's foreheads before we start protecting their life is a tragedy. These pictures shouldn't be news to you, I found them in a 10 second ask.com search.

 

[Graconos]

First: The Sixth Commandment is pretty clear: thou shalt not murder. Murder is the premeditated taking of another human being's life. Since every medical or surgical abortion is planned, they are all premeditated.

Second: Define "person." Human being is sufficient enough for me. You see, the last time people talked about human beings who weren't really "persons", they were justifying slavery.

This pic came from is just another eugenics apologist site (overpopulation.org). This is a 7-week fetus. It clearly has a head and its brain is controlling growth and tissue creation.

This according to their site is 9-10 weeks. It has brain, cerebrum, arms, and legs. If you can't feel emotion for this little human as it is mercilessly killed by the functional equivalent of a three speed blender, I have to wonder which among the two of you lacks a brain.

I simply believe that human life should always be protected whenever possible, and that it is bleeding obvious to anyone that a pregnant female human is carrying an actual human baby. That you think we need some legal agency to stamp "person" on people's foreheads before we start protecting their life is a tragedy. These pictures shouldn't be news to you, I found them in a 10 second ask.com search.

Other than the minor mistake of confusing the 5th and 6th Commandments (5=Shall not kill, 6=Shall not commit adultery) you make excellent points. I agree, even if a baby is still unborn, that does not mean it is not alive. Although legally a person is not alive until a breath of air is drawn, there are plenty of laws that are immoral. As soon as the egg is fertilized, the baby has been created, and killing it is no better than killing anyone else.

 

[umbarsc]

First of all, you didn't answer my question. Why is pro-abortion anti-Christian?

I'm actually curious if the fetus can experience any form of consciousness.

I'd rather be practical than sentimental. That "poor little human being" is nothing yet. It's just a parasite in the mother's womb, and as far as I'm concerned it shouldn't be regarded as a human being. This may seem primitive to such a tender-hearted, anti-(insert anything that isn't white, straight, male) person like yourself, but why should we be forced to put another mouth in an over-populated world just to satisfy your superstitions?

Also, another thing I'm wondering is if you are pro-death penalty. It's really ironic that "anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, pro-Bible" people support that when acording to the Bible, Jesus himself forgave the people who gave him the death sentence, which seemed to be a pretty big theme among the Bible stories (Joseph forgave his siblings when they sold him, etc).

 

[Deck Knight]

And yeah where does Obama support racism

Obama was a member of a racist church with a racist pastor for 20 years. He funnelled taxpayer dollars to that church.

He also funnelled money to Pfleger's ("I'm white! I'm entitled! America is a sin against God!") Church.

Saying Obama isn't racist after 20 years of supporting racist churches is like saying you aren't a whore if you spent the last 20 years as a prostitute.

 

[God.]

In what ways is Jeremiah Wright racist? He is just angry. If I were a black man I would be angry. God knows if there is one thing America cannot stand, other than relatively high gas prices, it is an angry black man.

What has Jeremiah Wright said that is racist? America is a country controlled by rich white people ... I am pretty sure that is a fact.

 

[Vampy34]

One thing: The brain does not control growth or tissue creation.

Also, the sixth commandment IS Thou Shall Not Murder/Kill, unless you are a Roman Catholic, where the Sixth is Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery

 

[Deck Knight]

First of all, you didn't answer my question. Why is pro-abortion anti-Christian?

I'm actually curious if the fetus can experience any form of consciousness.

I'd rather be practical than sentimental. That "poor little human being" is nothing yet. It's just a parasite in the mother's womb, and as far as I'm concerned it shouldn't be regarded as a human being. This may seem primitive to such a tender-hearted, anti-(insert anything that isn't white, straight, male) person like yourself, but why should we be forced to put another mouth in an over-populated world just to satisfy your superstitions?

Also, another thing I'm wondering is if you are pro-death penalty. It's really ironic that "anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, pro-Bible" people support that when acording to the Bible, Jesus himself forgave the people who gave him the death sentence, which seemed to be a pretty big theme among the Bible stories (Joseph forgave his siblings when they sold him, etc).

I have bolded everything in your post that is indicative of why you hold your stance. You start by saying a child in the womb is nothing, yet apparently it has enough substance to be a parasite. Your reasoning for this is not based in fact, but in your preference. This preference is based on your opinion that the world is overpopulated and that any abortion serves to circumvent the burden of overpopulation specifically from your shoulders. You even have the temerity to believe you speak for all of society in the practicality of this application, suggesting anyone who believes differently is sentimental towards a lesser good at best and a useless parasite at worst.

You then display further biases by attacking me personally and then claiming that I am the superstitious of the two of us.

Thus, you obviously aren't interested in anything I have to say given the general irreverancy of your post. I will answer it anyway because I feel sorry for demonstrably close-minded fools who judge others as hateful of "the other" in the same moment they stump for killing biologically provable human beings who don't meet their personal standards for a person. I know perfectly well that I am wasting my time and will cease replying to you after this post.

First: Abortion directly and deliberately violates a commandment. It is by its nature anti-Christian to support it. You cannot legitimately call yourself a Christian and support abortion.

Second: Consciousness is irrelevant, you can still get booked for murder if you render your victim unconcious first. Furter, full conciousness for a child in utero is simply a matter of time. Infants do not have what one might consider full conciousness, but there are few abortion advocates willing to say offing 6-month-olds is justifiable.

Third: I continually struggle with the death penalty, but the death penalty is different in kind entirely from abortion. First, one only applies the death penalty to human beings who have done such egregious wrongs that they are incapable of staying in civilized society. The death penalty issue deals with just punishment for the guilty, not wanton destruction of the innocent. The death penalty debate is about the best way for a recognized government authority to administer justice to criminals.

Jesus was known for his mercy, but mercy exists only after acknowledging justice. Jesus knew the punishment for adultery was stoning. He spared her from that punishment and used these words: "Go, and sin no more." The use of the word sin acknowledges that her actions were evil and thusly deserved punishment, but in Jesus' mercy he spared her and told her to abandon her ways. Justice without mercy is harsh, but mercy without justice is self-defeating.

In Biblical principle, the death penalty is always a just punishment for murder. For the purposes of our governments, it is simply a question of how much mercy we should extend to criminals. Furthermore, when Jesus was hanging by the two criminals, wouldn't that have been a great time for him to expound on how governments don't have the right to punish people with death? But he didn't. In fact, when the saved theif said that they deserved this punishment and acknowledged that it was a legitimate justice being put out, Jesus forgave him his sins for recognizing his wrongs, the justice he was recieving for it, and repenting of his sins.

And yeah, I screwed up the 6th Commandment. Thou shalt not muder is the 5th. I hate it when I screw that up.


unceunce, please move to Canada if that is your wish. No one is stopping you. This is America. You can come and go as you please.

 

[Expert Evan]

I read somewhere that if McCain got elected that Susan Sarandon was threatening to move out of the country. To me I find that hard to believe. I certainly did not move out of the country when Bill Clinton first got elected. There's always a silver lining somehow.

 

[umbarsc]

However, consciousness is in fact relevant. It is not a matter of if the victim is conscious at the moment, but if the victim has even been conscious. The fetus has not experienced any life at all. How can it object to its murder if it does not know how to object, if it has never experienced enough form of self to object?

When I say "nothing", you know full well what I meant. When I said it is "nothing", I meant that it has not experienced any life yet. It is still developing, being encased in the womb, how can you kill it if it doesn't know what life is?

Thirdly, we have to look at it from the mother's perspective. This part is best left to akuchi, but we still have to consider rape, accidental circumstances (like a messed up birth control pill), and just plain accidents.

Also, you are calling me superstitious but you are backing up your arguments by quoting some all-powerful rules from a magic book written in Mesopotanian times.


In any case, we are getting really off-topic so I won't respond to anything more about this.