This is exactly the reason why eviolite should be banned. While the Abra would most likely be used over Alakazam, once you factor eviolite there would be NO reason to use Zam. I'm sure this applies for evolutionary lines across the board. Since, I think, the point of this metagame would be to able to use much more pokemon in the standard setting, eviolite would definitely be counter-productive.
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Equal BST Metagame
- Thread starter zyrefredric
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Why BST averaging? It would still be utterly imbalanced, just with LC being the top of OU thanks to eviolite.
Personally, I propose a different metagame:
Level balancing based on winning team usage
All 6 members of the winning team lose 1-50 exp. Lost exp is given out equally to all competators... Slowly but surely, those who win (the top legendaries, to start with) lose exp. In the deepest pits of uselessness (not NU, this is based on victories, not usage), magikarp becomes more and more powerful.
Thus there would be no OU, UU or RU, only U, and the metagame is so well self-balanced (!) that the maximum imbalance of each poke is less than one level. Skill is exponentially more important in such a metagame.
In an equal BST system, Unown would still be in NU due to poor movepool and typing... but in a level balanced metagame, Unown would be a potent choice specs/scarf user.
I would love to see a level balanced metagame.
Personally, I propose a different metagame:
Level balancing based on winning team usage
All 6 members of the winning team lose 1-50 exp. Lost exp is given out equally to all competators... Slowly but surely, those who win (the top legendaries, to start with) lose exp. In the deepest pits of uselessness (not NU, this is based on victories, not usage), magikarp becomes more and more powerful.
Thus there would be no OU, UU or RU, only U, and the metagame is so well self-balanced (!) that the maximum imbalance of each poke is less than one level. Skill is exponentially more important in such a metagame.
In an equal BST system, Unown would still be in NU due to poor movepool and typing... but in a level balanced metagame, Unown would be a potent choice specs/scarf user.
I would love to see a level balanced metagame.
Explain to me how your system gives Unown something other than Hidden Power?
It doesn't. It balances by level.
Imagine an unown at level 80 in a metagame where CB scizor is at level 40ish. Scizor gets outsped and OHKO'd by a neutral hidden power. Unown gets 3HKO'd by a bullet punch.
Except, the levels would be determined by victories, not just numbers off the top of my head, which would cause the metagame to balance itself.
The main different between my proposal and the BST balancing is that movepool, typing and abilities will play a role in determining stats.
One problem with this is that it would take a horrendous amount of time and many players to actually get to a place it would work.
But I love the original idea. Where can I play it?
But I love the original idea. Where can I play it?
Inb4 didn't really read the thread.
It's fairly agreed already Eviolite would need to be banned in this metagame for it to work already. Once it's banned, it actually works.
Also, you're punished in the metagame of your dreams for winning. Assuming EXP is a universal thing, you incite players to make alts where they repeatedly lose so they can grind up the overall level of good Pokemon in a metagame, so then they can get to #1 with a different account.
This, on the other hand, is a much better idea.
The first time I saw the stats, I thought: "Woah, some of these Pokemon have rocket-high attacking stats! Shedinja, Cranidos, Carvanha unleash powerful physical assaults, while Solosis, Abra, and Gastly take care of the special side. It's hard to imagine anything able to take attacks from them.!" Well at least, that's what I initially thought. But when I decided to make some calcs, and it turns out it's not that bad.
Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
Adamant; 252 Atk / 252 Spe
~ Swords Dance
~ Shadow Sneak
~ X-Scissor
~ Sucker Punch
Shedinja stands out with a frightening base 175 Attack stat. With Wonder Guard granting it immunity to many attacks, it's not that hard to get a Swords Dance, netting himself 986 Attack. With Shadow Sneak / Sucker Punch priority, facing this guy seems a futile task. However, such is not the case, as the calcs show below:
Abra @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Adamant; 252 SpA / 252 Spe
~ Psychic / Psyshock
~ Shadow Ball
~ Charge Beam
~ Hidden Power Fire / Ice
Abra is very notable for having the best special sweeping stats, with SpA and Spe base stats of 155 and 133, respectively. It may seem that it outclasses Alakazam entirely, but it missed out Focus Blast, which is a big thing. Note that because it does not have Focus Blast, the pink blobs Happiny (and evos) and even Cleffa stops it entirely if it opts to use Psychic over Psyshock. But even with Psyshock, there is a always a counter depending on its Hidden Power of Choice:
Basically, I edited an excel file Damage Calculator to use the BST-equalized base stats. I've been playing around with it, and I got that impression that although some attacking stats seem absurdly high, it's not anything that the metagame can't handle. In fact, I'd even claim as of now that when this meta becomes a reality, it won't be as fast-paced than initially expected, and that most Pokemon are relatively bulky.
I'd be posting the edited damage calculator in soon, so that you may try it out for the moment. As of now, I'm still researching how to put up this meta. I've formally proposed this both to Pokemon Online and Pokemon Showdown, and am awaiting for feedback.
Also,
Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
Adamant; 252 Atk / 252 Spe
~ Swords Dance
~ Shadow Sneak
~ X-Scissor
~ Sucker Punch
Shedinja stands out with a frightening base 175 Attack stat. With Wonder Guard granting it immunity to many attacks, it's not that hard to get a Swords Dance, netting himself 986 Attack. With Shadow Sneak / Sucker Punch priority, facing this guy seems a futile task. However, such is not the case, as the calcs show below:
+2 Shadow Sneak vs. Steelix (252 HP / 252 Def+): 12.4% ~ 14.8%
+2 Shadow Sneak vs.Skarmory (252 HP / 252 Def+): 15.3% ~ 18.3%
* virtually all steel-types could reliably handle Shedinja
+2 Shadow Sneak vs.Skarmory (252 HP / 252 Def+): 15.3% ~ 18.3%
* virtually all steel-types could reliably handle Shedinja
Abra @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Adamant; 252 SpA / 252 Spe
~ Psychic / Psyshock
~ Shadow Ball
~ Charge Beam
~ Hidden Power Fire / Ice
Abra is very notable for having the best special sweeping stats, with SpA and Spe base stats of 155 and 133, respectively. It may seem that it outclasses Alakazam entirely, but it missed out Focus Blast, which is a big thing. Note that because it does not have Focus Blast, the pink blobs Happiny (and evos) and even Cleffa stops it entirely if it opts to use Psychic over Psyshock. But even with Psyshock, there is a always a counter depending on its Hidden Power of Choice:
*Note how Deino doesn't even have any HP and SpD EV's invested.
Psychic vs. Deino (0 HP, 0 SpD): 0% ~ 0%
Shadow Ball vs. Deino (0 HP, 0 SpD): 29.4% ~ 34.8%
Charge Beam vs. Deino (0 HP, 0 SpD): 18.4% ~ 21.7%
Hidden Power Fire vs. Deino (0 HP, 0 SpD): 25.8% ~ 30.4%
Hidden Power Ice vs. Deino (252 HP, 252 SpD+): 58.0% ~ 68.5%
Psychic vs. Magnezone (252 HP, 252 SpD+): 31.5% ~ 37.0%
Psyshock vs. Magnezone (252 HP, 252 SpD+): 27.8% ~ 33.0%
Shadow Ball vs. Magnezone (252 HP, 252 SpD+): 18.5% ~ 21.9%
Charge Beam vs. Magnezone (252 HP, 252 SpD+): 11.4% ~ 13.6%
Hidden Power Ice vs. Magnezone (252 HP, 252 SpD+): 16.0% ~ 19.1%
Hidden Power Fire vs. Magnezone (252 HP, 252 SpD+): 64.8% ~ 76.5%
Psychic vs. Deino (0 HP, 0 SpD): 0% ~ 0%
Shadow Ball vs. Deino (0 HP, 0 SpD): 29.4% ~ 34.8%
Charge Beam vs. Deino (0 HP, 0 SpD): 18.4% ~ 21.7%
Hidden Power Fire vs. Deino (0 HP, 0 SpD): 25.8% ~ 30.4%
Hidden Power Ice vs. Deino (252 HP, 252 SpD+): 58.0% ~ 68.5%
Psychic vs. Magnezone (252 HP, 252 SpD+): 31.5% ~ 37.0%
Psyshock vs. Magnezone (252 HP, 252 SpD+): 27.8% ~ 33.0%
Shadow Ball vs. Magnezone (252 HP, 252 SpD+): 18.5% ~ 21.9%
Charge Beam vs. Magnezone (252 HP, 252 SpD+): 11.4% ~ 13.6%
Hidden Power Ice vs. Magnezone (252 HP, 252 SpD+): 16.0% ~ 19.1%
Hidden Power Fire vs. Magnezone (252 HP, 252 SpD+): 64.8% ~ 76.5%
Basically, I edited an excel file Damage Calculator to use the BST-equalized base stats. I've been playing around with it, and I got that impression that although some attacking stats seem absurdly high, it's not anything that the metagame can't handle. In fact, I'd even claim as of now that when this meta becomes a reality, it won't be as fast-paced than initially expected, and that most Pokemon are relatively bulky.
I'd be posting the edited damage calculator in soon, so that you may try it out for the moment. As of now, I'm still researching how to put up this meta. I've formally proposed this both to Pokemon Online and Pokemon Showdown, and am awaiting for feedback.
Also,
I can't agree with this more, as Eviolite screws up the whole point of this meta.
It is implemented in PO, check 2nd? page, i'm to lazy to link it, there's a server with it.
Here's the link to the damage calculator for Equal BST metagame.
http://www.mediafire.com/?66x3n94a9s29y0o
Another set of calcs:
Choice Banded, Adamant, 252 Atk EVs, Head Smash from a Cranidos with base Attack stat of 164 is probably the strongest Physical attack one will ever face in this meta. It's so strong, that out of 665 Pokemon to choose from, only 19 Pokemon can avoid being 2HKOed! Thankfully each of them can retaliate well enough.
Aggron: 38.3% ~ 45.1%
Bastiodon: 39.8% ~ 46.8%
Bronzor: 37.8% ~ 44.7%
Cobalion: 24.3% ~ 28.6%
Excadrill: 30.8% ~ 36.6%
Ferroseed: 40.8% ~ 48.2%
Geodude: 39.0% ~ 46.0%
Golem: 42.1% ~ 49.7%
Graveler: 41.9% ~ 49.4%
Hippopotas: 41.6% ~ 49.0%
Lairon: 38.9% ~ 45.8%
Lucario: 35.6% ~ 42.0%
Onix: 37.4% ~ 44.1%
Rhydon: 39.3% ~ 46.5%
Rhyhorn: 35.2% ~ 41.4%
Rhyperior: 39.6% ~ 46.8%
Sandshrew: 40.4% ~ 47.5%
Steelix: 16.6% ~ 19.5%
Wooper: 39.2% ~ 46.4%
Bastiodon: 39.8% ~ 46.8%
Bronzor: 37.8% ~ 44.7%
Cobalion: 24.3% ~ 28.6%
Excadrill: 30.8% ~ 36.6%
Ferroseed: 40.8% ~ 48.2%
Geodude: 39.0% ~ 46.0%
Golem: 42.1% ~ 49.7%
Graveler: 41.9% ~ 49.4%
Hippopotas: 41.6% ~ 49.0%
Lairon: 38.9% ~ 45.8%
Lucario: 35.6% ~ 42.0%
Onix: 37.4% ~ 44.1%
Rhydon: 39.3% ~ 46.5%
Rhyhorn: 35.2% ~ 41.4%
Rhyperior: 39.6% ~ 46.8%
Sandshrew: 40.4% ~ 47.5%
Steelix: 16.6% ~ 19.5%
Wooper: 39.2% ~ 46.4%
No surprise there that every Pokémon that could survive the CB Head Smash coming from Cranidos in this metagame is either Rock, Ground, Steel, or a combination of the three.
But I don't see a single Fighting-type on that list that isn't backed up by Steel typing.
Rock does not really resist rock. Ground, Steel and Fighting do. But yes, no fighting-type (except Cobalion and Lucario, both part-Steel) could handle Cranidos Head Smash, which just shows how strong it is, and how there is no fighting-type bulky enough.
Well, that's also because things like Arceus and Gira-A have much lower defenses in this metagame, so they can't take the hit, and Steel and Ground naturally resist Rock to begin with. Fighting does too, but coming off of a BASE 164 ATTACK STAT, it's not surprising that almost nothing can survive 2 hits. In addition, Rock is an amazing attacking type.
Game Freak did that for us already. See above: Abra doesn't get Focus Blast, as an example. There are other situations, like how Staryu is missing a Psychic typing, and how there's no real substitute for Hydreigon. There might be a few cases where prevos completely outclass evos, but they will be rare.
Everyone's joking about Magikarp as the speed demon, but what about Feebas? Feebas actually gets a movepool and there might be some (gimmicky?) uses for that, such as fast Hypnosis.
It's worth noting that Feebas is acceptably bulky, bearing 72/72/198 defenses. Unfortunately, the movepool is nothing fantastic. The most it can reasonably do is stop Special setup sweepers with an extremely fast Haze. Its only recovery is Rest, and since it lacks Sleep Talk, I can't see any good use for it.
I'll take this space to talk about Breloom. Here are its stats in base 720:
HP: 94
Atk: 203
Def: 125
SpA: 94
SpD: 94
Spe: 109
As we see, it has moderately acceptable bulk. It can take some NVE and neutral attacks, especially in the physical spectrum. Its speed is reasonably high, and can outrun a solid number of threats. Where it stands out is its obscene attack stat. Breloom's STAB Focus Punch is one of the strongest attacks in the game, and with Spore to back it up it is not difficult for Breloom to be able to unleash some of them on the opposing team. I have high hopes of Breloom standing out as a prime threat, especially with DS support.
I'll take this space to talk about Breloom. Here are its stats in base 720:
HP: 94
Atk: 203
Def: 125
SpA: 94
SpD: 94
Spe: 109
As we see, it has moderately acceptable bulk. It can take some NVE and neutral attacks, especially in the physical spectrum. Its speed is reasonably high, and can outrun a solid number of threats. Where it stands out is its obscene attack stat. Breloom's STAB Focus Punch is one of the strongest attacks in the game, and with Spore to back it up it is not difficult for Breloom to be able to unleash some of them on the opposing team. I have high hopes of Breloom standing out as a prime threat, especially with DS support.
Thanks zyrefredic. Though I still can't find the PO server, what's the exact name of the server?
Also, Scarf Krabby seems pretty cool. 148 Attack is huge, and 71 Speed isn't so bad considering this metagame is much slower than normal. It also has 127 base Defense to switch in on physical attackers relatively easy and not be KOed by priority either. It also 2HKOes Steelix with Crabhammer which is certainly impressive considering it is the most physically bulky Pokemon in the metagame.
Also, Scarf Krabby seems pretty cool. 148 Attack is huge, and 71 Speed isn't so bad considering this metagame is much slower than normal. It also has 127 base Defense to switch in on physical attackers relatively easy and not be KOed by priority either. It also 2HKOes Steelix with Crabhammer which is certainly impressive considering it is the most physically bulky Pokemon in the metagame.
71 speed is a big issue. Krabby couldn't outspeed Blaziken after one boost, which I'm going to bet will be a huge breakout Pokemon due to its fantastic typing, movepool, stat distribution, and ability. Also, depending on which move Krabby uses, there are a variety of Pokemon that can tank and then set up. The worst is by far Kingdra, which should be very frightening even if Drizzle+Swift Swim aren't unbanned.
What BST are you using? 720 is the standard, I believe.
It's not up, I modded a server program, my comp lags horribly with it
Here ya go
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?gy8t28ao61q7527
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