Escavalier

Yeah, this guys move pool sucks, no question about it. Oh well. I'm thinking BL to be honest, though ofc, everything now is complete theroymon.
BL? It's slow as dirt, and is generally outclassed by Rhyperior. The only thing this guy can do that Rhyp. can't is hit with special attacks. It has worse offensive typing and a pretty poor movepool. It's also dominated by Arcanine in UU. Unless Trick Room get's an item that makes it last 8 turns this thing is just a decent UU. Even then I'd go for Rhyp. I know that many of my assumptions are based on Gen. IV's metagame, but unless Gen. IV's most commonly used UU pokes go OU(which I doubt), I doubt that this will even have a suspect test.
 
BL? It's slow as dirt, and is generally outclassed by Rhyperior. The only thing this guy can do that Rhyp. can't is hit with special attacks. It has worse offensive typing and a pretty poor movepool. It's also dominated by Arcanine in UU. Unless Trick Room get's an item that makes it last 8 turns this thing is just a decent UU. Even then I'd go for Rhyp. I know that many of my assumptions are based on Gen. IV's metagame, but unless Gen. IV's most commonly used UU pokes go OU(which I doubt), that this will even have a suspect test.
Meh, maybe i'm overrating him.
 
Hey, how about actually talking about how to use the Pokemon instead of talking like we have any understanding of tiers in a metagame we haven't even played yet.
 
Hey, how about actually talking about how to use the Pokemon instead of talking like we have any understanding of tiers in a metagame we haven't even played yet.
You can't talk about how to use pokes in an unknown metagame without making some assumptions about the metagame itself.
 
Sure you can, you address its movepool, you address pokemon that can shut it down, no where do you ever have to bring up tiers, and imaginary tier discussion is both incredibly stupid and discourage by mods.
 
Sure you can, you address its movepool, you address pokemon that can shut it down, no where do you ever have to bring up tiers, and imaginary tier discussion is both incredibly stupid and discourage by mods.
Ok... This guy has a horrible offensive movepool(defensively and offensively), it has horrible offensive typing+base stats that lean towards offense, and is shut down by Arcanine, Heatran, Dusknoir and a load of things i don't feel like listing. It's only possible use is in Trick Room, where it is outclassed by Rhyperior. This means that it will not be OU. This is a conclusion which I was lead to by using logic. It's stat distribution and typing also indicates that it will not be overpowered in UU, because it simply sucks in every way that counts. The tiers will exist at some point. You telling me to suggest uses for this guy in OU is like telling me to suggest a use for Caterpie in LC. It's pointless. the only real use this guy will get is in the lower tiers and from it's stats and movepool I conclude that it will not be overpowered in that environment. There will be fire and steel types in every tier(you cannot reasonably argue otherwise), meaning that this guy will have counters no matter what tier he's in.
 
No, this isn't outclassed by Rhyperior. Rhyperior has a horrible defensive typing and is easily shut down by any special attacker. Even against a pokemon with meh special attack like Miltoc, Rhyperior can not take a hit even with Miltoc running no special attack EVs. Unless the user possess a fire type move, this guy can take a hit thanks to his typing, and can hit back. Scizor has always been known as a bulky pokemon, and this guy is only bulkier. Before the Bullet Punch came into play, Scizor was a pokemon who took a hit and hit back. This guy can do this job efficiently. There are plenty of pokemon who aren't outstanding but who survive in OU such as Dusknoir and Umbreon.

Even more, you aren't using "logic" because you are forgetting that as of this moment, and the second we start playing, there are NO tiers whatsoever. We don't even know what tiers will look like next gen. For all we know, there could be 5 standard tiers. To address this pokemon as if the tiers will not change and that certain pokemon will remain in the lower tiers is not a "logic"al way to judge a pokemon.

And as I said before, the mods have said in many threads not to discuss tiering. Instead we should be discussing and debating possible uses for this pokemon, not talking about bull shit imaginary out of date tier placements.
 
No, this isn't outclassed by Rhyperior. Rhyperior has a horrible defensive typing and is easily shut down by any special attacker. Even against a pokemon with meh special attack like Miltoc, Rhyperior can not take a hit even with Miltoc running no special attack EVs. Unless the user possess a fire type move, this guy can take a hit thanks to his typing, and can hit back. Scizor has always been known as a bulky pokemon, and this guy is only bulkier. Before the Bullet Punch came into play, Scizor was a pokemon who took a hit and hit back. This guy can do this job efficiently. There are plenty of pokemon who aren't outstanding but who survive in OU such as Dusknoir and Umbreon.

Even more, you aren't using "logic" because you are forgetting that as of this moment, and the second we start playing, there are NO tiers whatsoever. We don't even know what tiers will look like next gen. For all we know, there could be 5 standard tiers. To address this pokemon as if the tiers will not change and that certain pokemon will remain in the lower tiers is not a "logic"al way to judge a pokemon.

And as I said before, the mods have said in many threads not to discuss tiering. Instead we should be discussing and debating possible uses for this pokemon, not talking about bull shit imaginary out of date tier placements.
Saying Milotic will be in the same tier as Rhyp. is assuming that the tiers will remain the same. I never said that Rhyp. would be UU. I said it outclasses this guy. Rhyp. can also EdgeQuake with STAB. Also Rhyp. can RP, significantly lowering the amount of special attackers that can beat him. This guy has good defensive typing, but nothing to do with it. It can't set up in any way without being walled by Fire and Steel types(which exist in EVERY tier) and has no recovery or BP to make use of SD. Scizor could do both and wasn't outsped by everything and it's mother.
Please explain why there won't be lower tiers. I am not particularly knowledgeable as far tiers are concerned. I'm assuming that the UBERS,OU, UU,NU format will reamain. I know that everything will be together in the beginning, but this guy simply won't be effective. It's only hope at getting usage is in the lower tiers where(as I said) there WILL be Steels and Fire types, that's just a fact.
 
With 135 Attack, STAB Megahorn, and good defenses, it does have something to do with it. So the sword dance set sucks, whoop de doo. Its still a decent, but not amazing bulky offensive pokemon to run.

And you still miss the entire point of what I'm saying. We don't talk about tiers when there are no tiers. The mods have made this clear. The reason is because its pointless, absolutely pointless and based solely on assumptions and in no way contributes anything to the discussion about the pokemon. Saying "Oh man he sucks, NU all daeh mahn" does not add anything to the discussion, and makes the assumption that in a game where every pokemon gets new (in a lot of cases, radical) new abilities, there are 150 new pokemon, most of which with polarizing movepools and stats, and with a change in format to the way we classify things, that you can activly judge if a pokemon is not "overwhellming in lower tiers" when you don't even know what those lower tiers look like. Its an incredibly stupid discussion to have because its based on nothing.
 
Its an incredibly stupid discussion to have because its based on nothing.
Based on nothing? So far my arguments have had nothing to do with with the tiering of individual pokemon and everything to do with entire typings. When a pokemon is completely walled by two entire types I do not consider it "stupid" or "based on nothing" to say it won't be overpowered. It's simply fact and logic. Me saying that Hera won't be BL in Gen. V because Crobat beats it, on the other hand would be "stupid" and "based on nothing". I'm not proposing that everyone starts saying that certain pokes will be BL or Uber without justification, but if you have a reasonable point of view which you can back up with a logical train of thought how is it wrong to express your opinions?
 

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This Pokemon has good attack/defense, good typing, and a reasonable movepool. I'd be surprised if this thing didn't have *some* sort of niche in OU. The major issues are A) Heatran is a pretty tough counter and B) Shandera is just going to straight-up kill you (doesn't hurt that it resists Bug 4x). Fortunately, Shadow Tag Shandera is still a future problem, and Rock Smash can keep Heatran from just coming in for free.
 
Based on nothing? So far my arguments have had nothing to do with with the tiering of individual pokemon and everything to do with entire typings. When a pokemon is completely walled by two entire types I do not consider it "stupid" or "based on nothing" to say it won't be overpowered. It's simply fact and logic. Me saying that Hera won't be BL in Gen. V because Crobat beats it, on the other hand would be "stupid" and "based on nothing". I'm not proposing that everyone starts saying that certain pokes will be BL or Uber without justification, but if you have a reasonable point of view which you can back up with a logical train of thought how is it wrong to express your opinions?
Because you are talking about how it will fair in a tier with no knowledge of how this tier looks.
 
Because you are talking about how it will fair in a tier with no knowledge of how this tier looks.
All I'm saying is that there will be Fire and Steel types in the tier it will end up in, preventing it from being OP. Please, if you disagree explain the reason and don't say keep saying "You don't have prior knowledge of the metagame". You have not given a single argument as to why it will be OP. All you do is repeat a phrase, as if it's the solution to everything. When a poke is shut down by two entire types it CANNOT be OP. Your just repeating yourself and dragging me along in the process. Next time you post make a different argument.
 
Do you even understand how a metagame works?
Why do pokemon who are otherwise just "whatever" end up being BL? Because they have no counters/checks or are just too centralizing for the metagame below them.

Yanmega sucks. It either runs Speed Boost and gets great speed to sweep but is let down by its poor type coverage, or, it runs Tinted Lens and gets screwed over by its poor speed and stealth rock weakness. It has no bulk and one of the single worst type combinations in the game.


Crobat has nothing but speed, super fang, 4 times resistences to fighting types, and nasty plot without the movepool to take advantage of it, having to rely on Hidden Power's for type coverage. After the drop in hypnosis, its a horrendous Pokemon with only limited use.

So why are these two suppar pokemon sent to BL? Because the majority of pokemon who make them unviable in OU are in OU. Abomasnow has poor movepool, poor typing, and very poor stats. Its only answer to steel types are Focus Punch and Hidden Power. However its deemed overcentralizing in UU, mostly thanks to its ability, and but also thanks to the sheer lack of steel types in UU, in comparison to OU, two of these being of the horrendous Steel/Rock type, greatly reducing their ability to effectively out wall Abomosnow.

Its not the pokemon that makes someone broken, its the environment they are in. This is why Celebi was able to step off of Uber this gen, because the environment around it created a place where it wouldn't be overpowered.

What you are doing is taking a Street Fighter charecter, placing him in a Guilty Gear game and saying he sucks. Well yes, in this enviroment a street fighter design wouldn't stand a chance. Hell man, what can he do agaist Slayer as Slayer's dash is invincible, and all of his crazy crossups and mixups are unstoppable to a street fighter character. And on the contrary, if you take the worse charecter from a Guilty Gear game, and put them in a Street Fighter game, they would be broken.

This is how metagame's work. It isn't some universal "good" or "bad" or "broken," its all in relation to the threats they encounter. Ivan Ooze would get a royal ass kicking in Guilty Gear, as you can't hit Eddie, testement, or dizzie out of their combos, and he couldn't play keep out with them.

This same "only as good as what's around you" applies just the same to pokemon, especially in a tiering system like OU, UU, NU, Ubers, and BL.
 
I fully understand how metagames work. But, I am talking about a poke who is walled so easily it isn't even funny. There are objective ways to see whether a poke has any way of being OP in any realistic environment. You have provided no evidence to support that Fire and Steel types will not exist in the tier this guy is placed in. Until you do I find no reason to make a new argument, because ANY fully evolved or stand-alone poke of those types counters this guy. If you were to create a metagame without Fires and Steels then maybe this guy would have a remote shot at being coonsidered OP. Also lets take this to PM because it's getting ridiculous.
 
offensively outclassed by Scizor and Heracross due to movepool issues

defensively outclassed by Forretress for a large number of reasons

seems like Shubarugo will end up in UU
 
Wow you don't even listen. Okay. I'm done. Whatever, just going to leave you with this one stat to make you realize that no every fire pokemon can wall this guy.
Adament Choice Band Megahorn
Magmortar: 77% - 90.7%
Typh 66.7% - 78.8%
Torkol- 42.7% - 50.5%
Charizard 33.3% - 39.4%
Moltres 27.4% - 32.1%


Note: none of these pokemon can take a Return from this guy.

Rock Smash to your steel counters:
Aggron 92.5% - 109.6%
Steelix 40.5% - 48.1% And Steelix has nothing of significance that he can do back.
Registeel is in a similar position, takes similar damage and can do little back.
Aggron is the only one of these three capable of truly threatening this pokemon with a OHKO, or even a 2HKO.

Perhaps you should do some calcs before you start to talk about how a pokemon can be walled from hell and back by any pokemon of a certain type.
 
Looks like a half-assed fusion of Scizor and Heracross.

The defenses are only mediocre, and sure the attack is awesome, but no speed and no good priority are the nails in his coffin.

Maybe he'll be good in UU, but he has no place in OU.
How are 70/105/105 defenses' mediocre?
 
Adament Choice Band Megahorn
Magmortar: 77% - 90.7%
Typh 66.7% - 78.8%
Torkol- 42.7% - 50.5%
Charizard 33.3% - 39.4%
Moltres 27.4% - 32.1%


Note: none of these pokemon can take a Return from this guy.

Rock Smash to your steel counters:
Aggron 92.5% - 109.6%
Steelix 40.5% - 48.1% And Steelix has nothing of significance that he can do back.
Registeel is in a similar position, takes similar damage and can do little back.
Aggron is the only one of these three capable of truly threatening this pokemon with a OHKO, or even a 2HKO.

Perhaps you should do some calcs before you start to talk about how a pokemon can be walled from hell and back by any pokemon of a certain type.
I'm curious to learn why this poke would lock itself into Rock Smash. If it's locked into Megahorn or Iron head it still seems walled to me. Registeel can just Twave and Stoss till this guy dies. And locking yourself into Rock Smash is suicide. You opponent can just send in almost any set-up sweeper and get a stat boost up. I would gladly give up one poke to set up my sweeper. I also find it funny that you only mention currently UU pokes and that you don't have Arcanine in there. You could also stick in Blaziken in there. It'll probly take similar damage to Zard without being slaughtered if SR is up. Zard can also Roost off the damage while threatening to KO. And I'm not the one introducing him to the UU metagame here. All the pokes you mentioned were currently UU so I just continued the list. It's like a Heracross with offensive typing and fewer usable sets. It's not completely useless, but it's not OP. If it's gonna run CB anything that resists Bug and has decent defense can come in on it. Weezing comes to mind.
 
IMO you guys make a mistake that you try to use Shubarugo as a hard-hitter or Swords Dancer. He has power for it, but not movepool (and mostly speed). If I would use Shubarugo, I would his main advantage here - his bulk. Remember, it's BULKIER then Scizor and really good typing to take hits. Lack of recovery hurts, so Scizor still has advantage here. However as a trapper this additional bulk helps. And has Megahorn/Pursuit/Rock Smash. Enough to trap few targets.

a) For first any Lati@s without HP Fire instantly looses (I'm not sure if Soul Dew will be allowed or not). And even with HP Fire, you add if I'm not mistaken 100 SpD EVs to secure survive (I need to check it, however it's more then possible). If you run Rain - Shubarugo is 100% check to them.
b) Shubarugo with max HP SURVIVES friggin CB Head Smash from Aggron, even with SR up. Something that 248 HP Scizor can't do. In other words you may take Head Smash and finish it with Rock Smash.
c) Also interesting think is, if you run Max HP/Max SpD, Specs Draco Meteor from the likes of Palkia/Dialga CAN'T 2OHKO you, while even with such heavy investment Scizor can't do. Scizor may switch safely only ONCE. This guy can do it more then once. STAB Megahorn hits more then hard enough them back. Also if Rain is up, Shubarugo is probably the best MewTwo check. In rain it can handle even Fire Blast with heavy SpD investment. Again, something that Scizor have trouble with. However if MewTwo runs Flamethrower, then history is different. Also if you want to compare Metagross and Shubarugo here - Metagross can't OHKO Mewtwo without CB Meteor Mash. In other words you must lock itself into move, while Shubarugo don't need.
d) I also think that this guy may be one of few Pokemon capable of checking SD ExtremeSpeed Normal Arceus, which is quite interesting. Yeah, Overheat eats you (however if it doesn't have it, it may be interesting), however it has good enough bulk when invested to take it on. Also this guy can handle with physically defensive EVs STAB SHadow Force from Ghost Arceus. Nothing to laugh at.

Ironically I find more uses for this guy against old Uber Pokemon then OU ones, which is surprising. Especially when in higher tiers Magnezone was much less popular, making it much less vulnarable to trapping. Also Rain helps him alot, canceling his only serious weakness. In other words IMO it's more worth to invest into this guy bulk then trying to make if offensive (however bulky Choice Bander may be interesting).
 
IMO you guys make a mistake that you try to use Shubarugo as a hard-hitter or Swords Dancer. He has power for it, but not movepool (and mostly speed). If I would use Shubarugo, I would his main advantage here - his bulk. Remember, it's BULKIER then Scizor and really good typing to take hits. Lack of recovery hurts, so Scizor still has advantage here. However as a trapper this additional bulk helps. And has Megahorn/Pursuit/Rock Smash. Enough to trap few targets.

a) For first any Lati@s without HP Fire instantly looses (I'm not sure if Soul Dew will be allowed or not). And even with HP Fire, you add if I'm not mistaken 100 SpD EVs to secure survive (I need to check it, however it's more then possible). If you run Rain - Shubarugo is 100% check to them.
b) Shubarugo with max HP SURVIVES friggin CB Head Smash from Aggron, even with SR up. Something that 248 HP Scizor can't do. In other words you may take Head Smash and finish it with Rock Smash.
c) Also interesting think is, if you run Max HP/Max SpD, Specs Draco Meteor from the likes of Palkia/Dialga CAN'T 2OHKO you, while even with such heavy investment Scizor can't do. Scizor may switch safely only ONCE. This guy can do it more then once. STAB Megahorn hits more then hard enough them back. Also if Rain is up, Shubarugo is probably the best MewTwo check. In rain it can handle even Fire Blast with heavy SpD investment. Again, something that Scizor have trouble with. However if MewTwo runs Flamethrower, then history is different. Also if you want to compare Metagross and Shubarugo here - Metagross can't OHKO Mewtwo without CB Meteor Mash. In other words you must lock itself into move, while Shubarugo don't need.
d) I also think that this guy may be one of few Pokemon capable of checking SD ExtremeSpeed Normal Arceus, which is quite interesting. Yeah, Overheat eats you (however if it doesn't have it, it may be interesting), however it has good enough bulk when invested to take it on. Also this guy can handle with physically defensive EVs STAB SHadow Force from Ghost Arceus. Nothing to laugh at.

Ironically I find more uses for this guy against old Uber Pokemon then OU ones, which is surprising. Especially when in higher tiers Magnezone was much less popular, making it much less vulnarable to trapping. Also Rain helps him alot, canceling his only serious weakness. In other words IMO it's more worth to invest into this guy bulk then trying to make if offensive (however bulky Choice Bander may be interesting).
(4th Gen.) Ubers Shubarugo. Who would have guessed it?
 

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