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Excadrill

Quite frankly, Gliscor needs defense to be able to take on Doryuzu and Terakion. Otherwise after +2 he gets slammed (god really, do you want max hp/max speed Gliscor to be OHKOED by Life Orb Terakion Stone Edge? Even 353 Hp/350 Defense has over 50% chance of being ohkoed with Stealth Rock. Terakion almost forces you to run defensive. Swords Dance Adamant Balloon Doryuzu can also 2 hit ko non defensive Gliscor after Stealth Rock with Rock Slide and if you get flinched, you won't even pop the Balloon.)

Gliscor NEEDS defense this time around.

And Gliscor can be a shaky counter to Doryuzu, especially if there's a Landlos waiting in the wings. There is only so many times Gliscor can switch in before dying and if Landlos is carrying Hp Ice or Swords Dance, Gliscor might not be switching in no more (and if you're unlucky enough to be hit by a critical +2 Stone Edge, you're dead although that is some fantastic luck. It will always at the least 2 hit ko you though while Gliscor won't ohko.)
 
Fluffy Otters said:
Quite frankly, Gliscor needs defense to be able to take on Doryuzu and Terakion. Otherwise after +2 he gets slammed (god really, do you want max hp/max speed Gliscor to be OHKOED by Life Orb Terakion Stone Edge? Even 353 Hp/350 Defense has over 50% chance of being ohkoed with Stealth Rock. Terakion almost forces you to run defensive. Swords Dance Adamant Balloon Doryuzu can also 2 hit ko non defensive Gliscor after Stealth Rock with Rock Slide and if you get flinched, you won't even pop the Balloon.)

Gliscor NEEDS defense this time around.

And Gliscor can be a shaky counter to Doryuzu, especially if there's a Landlos waiting in the wings. There is only so many times Gliscor can switch in before dying and if Landlos is carrying Hp Ice or Swords Dance, Gliscor might not be switching in no more (and if you're unlucky enough to be hit by a critical +2 Stone Edge, you're dead although that is some fantastic luck. It will always at the least 2 hit ko you though while Gliscor won't ohko.)
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If Gliscor can take on Doryuuzu, then it can take on RPTerakion and Landlos as well. It is already unable to take a +2 LO Stone Edge from Terakion and any good players will scout for HP Ice before throwing Gliscor into Landlos.
 
Fluffy Otters said:
And Gliscor can be a shaky counter to Doryuzu, especially if there's a Landlos waiting in the wings. There is only so many times Gliscor can switch in before dying and if Landlos is carrying Hp Ice or Swords Dance, Gliscor might not be switching in no more (and if you're unlucky enough to be hit by a critical +2 Stone Edge, you're dead although that is some fantastic luck. It will always at the least 2 hit ko you though while Gliscor won't ohko.)
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Other team mates have no bearing on how well Gliscor counters Excadrill one on one. And the fact is that if both pokemon were the last on the team at full health, Gliscor wins almost every time as long as it can pop your balloon.
 
IcyMan28 said:
If Gliscor can take on Doryuuzu, then it can take on RPTerakion and Landlos as well. It is already unable to take a +2 LO Stone Edge from Terakion and any good players will scout for HP Ice before throwing Gliscor into Landlos.
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It is likely to have trouble taking on Doryuzu+Landlos/Terakion and don't many Terakion Double Dance? Also for sheer irony, I recall a kinky Cheer Up Terakion set (the only way to win is by anything faster obviously but being able to destroy Gliscor is a plus) with with Hp Ice that obviously Gliscor won't enjoy. If Gliscor doesn't switch in on Landlos, what is (I imagine Starmie or Latios since the Drizzle+Swift Swim ban made him even more powerful and he was phenomenal then and it could Rock Polish. However Latias/Latios could survive the Stone Edge because of the unstab but if they receive things like Scizor Bullet Punch in support they're dead and Landlos could just attack on the switch as well and come in later for death).

Landlos/Terakion+ Doryuzu is beastly and they wear each other's counters out and are very fast. Gliscor has a tendency to be worn down then and it is quite possible to lose it to flinches or surpises. Gliscor itself can handle Doryuzu usually fine but in combinations with Doryuzu's friends and being worn down, it can lose.

I don't deny that one on one Gliscor almost always beats Doryuzu (barring very unlucky flinches). But it does have to beware of the situational hazards and being worn down and sometimes it isn't possible to keep Gliscor in reserve if you need it to take hits from something else. That's why everyone knows the best Doryuzu come in endgame when everything is weakened (sometimes that isn't possible either but it sure will try) and it mows over the last of the resistance.
 
Fluffy Otters said:
It is likely to have trouble taking on Doryuzu+Landlos/Terakion and don't many Terakion Double Dance? Also for sheer irony, I recall a kinky Cheer Up Terakion set (the only way to win is by anything faster obviously but being able to destroy Gliscor is a plus) with with Hp Ice that obviously Gliscor won't enjoy. If Gliscor doesn't switch in on Landlos, what is (I imagine Starmie or Latios since the Drizzle+Swift Swim ban made him even more powerful and he was phenomenal then and it could Rock Polish. However Latias/Latios could survive the Stone Edge because of the unstab but if they receive things like Scizor Bullet Punch in support they're dead and Landlos could just attack on the switch as well and come in later for death).

Landlos/Terakion+ Doryuzu is beastly and they wear each other's counters out and are very fast. Gliscor has a tendency to be worn down then and it is quite possible to lose it to flinches or surpises. Gliscor itself can handle Doryuzu usually fine but in combinations with Doryuzu's friends and being worn down, it can lose.

I don't deny that one on one Gliscor almost always beats Doryuzu (barring very unlucky flinches). But it does have to beware of the situational hazards and being worn down and sometimes it isn't possible to keep Gliscor in reserve if you need it to take hits from something else. That's why everyone knows the best Doryuzu come in endgame when everything is weakened (sometimes that isn't possible either but it sure will try) and it mows over the last of the resistance.
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Cheer Up Terakion is an inefficient gimmick when it has SD and RP at its disposal. Generally speaking, my teams carry Gliscor + something that outspeeds Terakion (usually ScarfChomp or something), meaning that I have the means to check all variants easily. SD versions on a balloon will at least have it popped by Gliscor, and I can go to Chomp on the SE (it isn't going to CC Gliscor, too much is at risk) and deal with it. Rock Polish versions without LO don't hit hard enough, and even with LO are dealt with by Gliscor.

I find Landlos + Doryuuzu to be far more threatening because unlike Terakion, Landlos is operating with a +1 boost in Sand regardless of what it does. Landlos with HP Ice will usually fire it off the first chance they get once Gliscor switches in, which I scout for with Protect. Once I've seen that, its all about pivot switching to something that can deal with an unboosted Landlos (a fair bit), and Gliscor is saved for the time being at least.



Anyways, it seems that Rotom-W has been forgotten in all the talk. It is actually extremely effective with a simple set of Thunderbolt / Hydro Pump / Pain Split / Will-o-Wisp. Doryuuzu can't evade its Hydro Pump regardless of whether it chooses Chople Berry or Balloon, while Jolly Landlos requires LO for Stone Edge to 2HKO. Meanwhile, Rotom-W is spreading burns, keeping its health with Pain Split, and has general utility outside of checking these two pokemon. It loses to Terakion, though.
 
At the extreme risk of derailing off Doryuzu (which already happened most likely), wouldn't Protect become predictable on Gliscor switching in on Landlos and it would grab a Swords Dance/Rock Polish/Fire off Hp Ice after the Protect?

Rotom-W does also die to Swords Dance Landlos (but then, you're not switching Rotom in on Landlos I think). Also, I think most Landlos (except Bulk Up which are also tough) do run Life Orb. However Rotom-W is an awesome pokemon and can be a Doryuzu counter...if it wasn't for the chance of flinch since it can 2 hit ko you with +2 Rock Slide. But Dragonite has that problem too (and is reliant on Multi-Scale being up) but those flinches certainly can make certain counters shaky. And if Hydro Pump misses (that would suck), it kills you as well. I think if I'm adding probabilities right that is a 50/50 of killing Doryuzu or dying (3/10 flinch+1/5 Hydro Pump miss).
 
Fluffy Otters said:
At the extreme risk of derailing off Doryuzu (which already happened most likely), wouldn't Protect become predictable on Gliscor switching in on Landlos and it would grab a Swords Dance/Rock Polish/Fire off Hp Ice after the Protect?

Rotom-W does also die to Swords Dance Landlos (but then, you're not switching Rotom in on Landlos I think). Also, I think most Landlos (except Bulk Up which are also tough) do run Life Orb. However Rotom-W is an awesome pokemon and can be a Doryuzu counter...if it wasn't for the chance of flinch since it can 2 hit ko you with +2 Rock Slide. But Dragonite has that problem too (and is reliant on Multi-Scale being up) but those flinches certainly can make certain counters shaky. And if Hydro Pump misses (that would suck), it kills you as well. I think if I'm adding probabilities right that is a 50/50 of killing Doryuzu or dying (3/10 flinch+1/5 Hydro Pump miss).
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Considering that the main Gliscor set in the analysis runs SD over Protect, I'd say that HP Ice has come to be more expected on Landlos than Protect on Gliscor (this is true in my experience at least).

And Doryuuzu has a mere 5% chance to 2HKO with +2 Jolly SD, meaning that Rotom-W has 2 tries for Hydro Pump (not sure why you'd WoW when HP is more accurate and will do the job regardless). Remember that Rock Slide, too, does not have perfect accuracy, so I find Rotom-W to be a viable check. Rotom-C (Electric/Grass) can also do the job, though it relies on WoW to do it.
 
Rotom's problem is they are 2HKO by X scissor and weakening them isnt as hard as anything so they dont really wall dory. Yeah hes more of a check. Counter side only scor is the 100 % counter. Rapid spin dory can handle skarm's main Job so they counter each other in some respect.
 
IcyMan28 said:
Considering that the main Gliscor set in the analysis runs SD over Protect, I'd say that HP Ice has come to be more expected on Landlos than Protect on Gliscor (this is true in my experience at least).

And Doryuuzu has a mere 5% chance to 2HKO with +2 Jolly SD, meaning that Rotom-W has 2 tries for Hydro Pump (not sure why you'd WoW when HP is more accurate and will do the job regardless). Remember that Rock Slide, too, does not have perfect accuracy, so I find Rotom-W to be a viable check. Rotom-C (Electric/Grass) can also do the job, though it relies on WoW to do it.
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Did you take Sandstream into account? I think one should always assume Sand when facing Doryuzu or else it's very easily revenge killed by normal fast things. With Sandstorm, it's more like a 65.5% according to the Damage calculator (and with Stealth Rock 100).

Good to know about Gliscor.
 
Well remember that Rotom really only needs to survive one hit, and that leftovers will be cancelling out sand. It is still one of the more solid checks around.
 
I just discovered that the 4th gen UU set for Rapid Spin Hitmontop (max/max Intimidate) actually pretty legitimately counters Doryuuzu. Unlike Roopushin, he can switch in on either EQ or Swords Dance safely and OHKO with Close Combat 100% of the time. He's not a bad Pokemon either, he gets guaranteed spins.

I really don't think we should be hauling Dory off to the Uber camp with so many usable checks and counters. I used to hate that motherfucker with every fiber of my being at the beginning of Gen 5, but nowadays, even if my counter dies somewhere in the middle of the match, I can quite easily still win by checking him with something he can't OHKO and KOing back (really easy considering everyone is still so attached to Balloon). This didn't happen with things like Deoxys-A, Shaymin, Darkrai, or Manaphy. If you couldn't deal with them on the spot, it was usually game over.
 
What about Unaware Quagsire? Sounds like a solid counter: good defense + ignore SD + STAB supereffective Waterfall/Earthquake + recovery + immune to SS.
 
79.8% - 93.6%
EQ from defensive quagsire
25.1% - 29.7%
Dory EQ

Quite solid. But nattrei switch in kill that idea somehow. If it isnt SE attack quag's atatck tickles IIRC
 
EQ from max atk Adamant LO Dory does 49% - 58% to 252/252 Quagsire, so no, Unaware Quagsire cannot safely counter Dory.
 
Oh, in that case, bulky Gyarados is a decent counter. It can take a +1 Rock Slide + SR + SS damage with HP to spare and OHKO with Waterfall.
 
Literally none run Adamant, so you'd want to use the Jolly calcs. Which I presume, prevent the 2HKO with Lefties factored in, letting him stall out EQ with recover or hit Dory with an attack.
 
okay i used ST gyara to wall it. It wont work as well as i thing will be. SO NO.
Gyara is shaky in this matter.

(i mainly run adamant LEFTOVERS NO ATTACK EV DORYUUZU IN MY MOST SUCESSFUL GEN 5 TEAM BEAT THAT)
 
Wii internet likes to crash a lot. Had a pretty big post up on this.

Anyway, adamant Excadrill>Jolly Excadrill at all times. I'm not seeing a reason to ALWAYS favor the balloon to the life orb or another item either. Aside from Hippowdon, what pokemon does the balloon make it easier to setup against? What pokemon outside of Gliscor will you lose to in battle if you don't have a balloon?
 
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