I'm not really sure Vacuum Wave can do much.
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Metagame Flipped
- Thread starter flying moose
- Start date
It has 181 Special Defense, not Special Attack. Its Special Attack is only 131 (and Vacuum Wave is not STAB). I'm not super familiar with the level of damage one can expect in this meta, so maybe those Pokémon are frail enough for that to be significant anyway, but it doesn't seem as impressive as you're making it sound, haha.
I got a lot of hot takes about the current VR now, hopefully these are worth reading.
Good check to Keldeo, Jirachi and Gyarados and can soft-check many other things like Snorlax, Dracovish, Diggersby, Hitmontop, Araquanid, and even some special attackers like Rhyperior, Avalugg, and Steelix (although it's not very specially bulky so it can be overwhelmed if not careful). Defog is another great trick that it gets, since it can pivot in on and threaten out hazard setters like Rhyperior, Araquanid, Jirachi, and others.
A good pivot into Sylveon. Although it is less bulky than Arcanine, it has a lot of interesting resists that let it very soft-check Steelix and just generally make certain choiced mons like Goodra, Torkoal, Kyurem, Rhyperior, Avalugg think twice about locking into an Ice or Ground move. It also does not become setup fodder for Sub Keldeo or Gyarados, whereas Arcanine does. It can also Defog which can be great for the hazard setters it forces out. The lack of reliable recovery makes it more limited in longer-term games, so it definitely fills a more narrow niche than Arcanine. It also has Nasty Plot, but it seems way too slow to use it... unless you're using Trick Room, which Rotom is very fast under, so there's another niche there.
Throh has nice speed and respectable power with Guts. Sylveon checks it, but it is 2HKO'd by Facade. Throh can also use Protect to scout Sylveon, meaning that Choiced sets have to deal with a bit of mindgames in order to revenge kill it. Knock Off also lets it wear down its checks nicely. It's not strong enough to outright beat physical walls like Accelgor, Roserade, and Arcanine, but it can generally pressure them to heal and maybe deprive them of an item. In many respects it is similar to Hitmontop, who has similar coverage but is slower. Where Hitmontop has priority, Throh's speed lets it get the jump on a lot of things. It's still a pretty niche mon but I think it merits a place in one of the lowest ranks.
Even without Shell Smash, the meta is still somewhat offensive, and Ditto can definitely take advantage. It's also good for revenge killing stuff like Rock Polish Steelix. Besides that, it's Ditto. It hasn't really changed, and can almost always find some kind of niche use in every meta.
Belly Drum Zen Mode is a pretty nice sweeper under certain situations, but even something like Sub + 3 Attacks is viable to not cut your health as much. Darmanitan doesn't get a whole lot of setup opportunities, but it can easily take advantage of something like Arcanine or a special attacker locked into something it resists. It's also worth mentioning that once it becomes Zen Mode, it becomes very physically bulky, so much so that priority like Band Sylveon Quick Attack does only like 15%. Being that resistant to the most common priority move in the meta is pretty good.
Bulky mon that's kind of a hybrid of Gengar and the defensive Dragapult set. It can burn through Subs with Infiltrator while also being able to check Sylveon with its 80/140/55 bulk. There are a lot of mons that would be able to set up a Sub on it were it not for Infiltrator, like Keldeo, Dragapult, Zeraora, Gyarados, Kyurem, and others. Its Special Attack is a relatively usable base 90, meaning that its Hex will hurt a little bit more than its contemporaries. It also has some other fun options like Pain Split to get some healing, Taunt or even Calm Mind to attempt a stallbreaker set, but something like Wisp / Hex / Pain Split / Flamethrower or Clear Smog is probably more consistent. I actually think this mon is better than Gengar in a lot of ways. The hazard weakness and vulnerability to Toxic sucks, but the ability to not turn over momentum to setup sweepers with Substitute and just generally not being so passive is a big help.
Even without Shell Smash, it's still viable just based on how strong it is. Choice Specs Torkoal is insanely powerful and can 2HKO stuff like phys def Arcanine, Rhyperior, and Goodra with Fire Blast, with the only real counter being SpDef Hydreigon (which is 2HKOd by max HP Eruption). It's only really fast enough for the slower stuff, but if you run it on a Sticky Web team it can get around that to an extent. Choice Scarf is another option to get around its low speed, but is consequentially weaker, although more than strong enough to lay the hurt against frailer teams.
Its physical bulk in Flipped is not much worse than in standard play, as such it's still one of the best and only consistent switch-ins to Dracovish (which is a little weaker too). It can generally check water-types like Keldeo, Araquanid, and Primarina, and can usually take at least one hit from most physical attackers, but I'd say overall its niche is a little more narrow than in standard play. Still though, Dracovish is a huge threat, and Seismitoad is one of the only really safe switch-ins to it that offers some utility too, so as such you can justify its use.
The usefulness of this mon has dropped a lot since you Shell Smash was banned, but it's still effective against most of the fast physically frail mons (bar Snorlax) with Shadow Sneak. It has decent power and speed that's good enough to outspeed the defensive mons it needs to beat with investment. It is majorly checked by Arcanine but can beat down most physical walls with SD, so its use is pretty niche and competes with Sylveon a little bit, but being able to safely put a stop to RP Steelix, DD Gyarados, any setup Virizion or Keldeo, etc. is nice. For what it's worth, it's also a good Trick Room setter too, outslowing pretty much everything viable (not Shuckle). You can also spinblock with it too if you're feeling ballsy. Overall I'd say Mimikyu is a C-ish rank mon.
Excellent offensive check to Sylveon, with Scarf it can revenge kill Rhyperior, Snorlax, Kyurem, etc, and unless they have Arcanine you can generally clean with it late-game. Trick is a great tool as well, since you can trick Arcanine or Roserade and open up the door for your Sylveon that way. Even after you lose the scarf, Jirachi's neat speed tier still puts it ahead of Avalugg, Cobalion, Goodra, and others so it can still pressure them with Iron Head. Defensive sets are a legit option as a resilient check to Sylveon and Stealth Rock setter.
I think Keldeo is really good too. SD is a nice set since it can pick off Rhyperior and Steelix with Aqua Jet and actually be pretty strong, but I think SubCM is even better, since it surprises so many of the checks to the SD set. So many of it's would-be checks like Primarina, Zeraora, Clefable, Espeon are more frail on the special side and can have the matchup flipped on their heads if they get Scald burned.
Very overrated mon that's easily checked by almost every relevant physical wall. Priority was very nice for dealing with Shell Smashers but now it is a lot less useful of a niche. Nowadays it deals with Rhyperior and Snorlax well but is far from able to answer to Sylveon since Bullet Punch doesn't do nearly enough damage and it can be outprioritized by Quick Attack. Most of the time I've faced this mon it's been a momentum suck as I was able to switch in on it fairly easily. Don't get me wrong, it's still.... usable, I just don't think it's anywhere NEAR the level the VR currently has it at.
I think Snorlax is a little overrated too. It really isn't all the powerful unless it gets a Belly Drum off (at which point it can be picked off fairly easily). Band Snorlax just isn't strong enough with it's middling-power mono-Normal STAB and 110 base Attack to break through most of the tanks you'll encounter unless you get lucky with Body Slam paralysis. And of course, Scarf Snorlax is a great revenge killer but lost a lot of luster with Shell Smash being removed.
Good check to Keldeo, Jirachi and Gyarados and can soft-check many other things like Snorlax, Dracovish, Diggersby, Hitmontop, Araquanid, and even some special attackers like Rhyperior, Avalugg, and Steelix (although it's not very specially bulky so it can be overwhelmed if not careful). Defog is another great trick that it gets, since it can pivot in on and threaten out hazard setters like Rhyperior, Araquanid, Jirachi, and others. A good pivot into Sylveon. Although it is less bulky than Arcanine, it has a lot of interesting resists that let it very soft-check Steelix and just generally make certain choiced mons like Goodra, Torkoal, Kyurem, Rhyperior, Avalugg think twice about locking into an Ice or Ground move. It also does not become setup fodder for Sub Keldeo or Gyarados, whereas Arcanine does. It can also Defog which can be great for the hazard setters it forces out. The lack of reliable recovery makes it more limited in longer-term games, so it definitely fills a more narrow niche than Arcanine. It also has Nasty Plot, but it seems way too slow to use it... unless you're using Trick Room, which Rotom is very fast under, so there's another niche there.Throh has nice speed and respectable power with Guts. Sylveon checks it, but it is 2HKO'd by Facade. Throh can also use Protect to scout Sylveon, meaning that Choiced sets have to deal with a bit of mindgames in order to revenge kill it. Knock Off also lets it wear down its checks nicely. It's not strong enough to outright beat physical walls like Accelgor, Roserade, and Arcanine, but it can generally pressure them to heal and maybe deprive them of an item. In many respects it is similar to Hitmontop, who has similar coverage but is slower. Where Hitmontop has priority, Throh's speed lets it get the jump on a lot of things. It's still a pretty niche mon but I think it merits a place in one of the lowest ranks. Even without Shell Smash, the meta is still somewhat offensive, and Ditto can definitely take advantage. It's also good for revenge killing stuff like Rock Polish Steelix. Besides that, it's Ditto. It hasn't really changed, and can almost always find some kind of niche use in every meta.Belly Drum Zen Mode is a pretty nice sweeper under certain situations, but even something like Sub + 3 Attacks is viable to not cut your health as much. Darmanitan doesn't get a whole lot of setup opportunities, but it can easily take advantage of something like Arcanine or a special attacker locked into something it resists. It's also worth mentioning that once it becomes Zen Mode, it becomes very physically bulky, so much so that priority like Band Sylveon Quick Attack does only like 15%. Being that resistant to the most common priority move in the meta is pretty good. Bulky mon that's kind of a hybrid of Gengar and the defensive Dragapult set. It can burn through Subs with Infiltrator while also being able to check Sylveon with its 80/140/55 bulk. There are a lot of mons that would be able to set up a Sub on it were it not for Infiltrator, like Keldeo, Dragapult, Zeraora, Gyarados, Kyurem, and others. Its Special Attack is a relatively usable base 90, meaning that its Hex will hurt a little bit more than its contemporaries. It also has some other fun options like Pain Split to get some healing, Taunt or even Calm Mind to attempt a stallbreaker set, but something like Wisp / Hex / Pain Split / Flamethrower or Clear Smog is probably more consistent. I actually think this mon is better than Gengar in a lot of ways. The hazard weakness and vulnerability to Toxic sucks, but the ability to not turn over momentum to setup sweepers with Substitute and just generally not being so passive is a big help.Even without Shell Smash, it's still viable just based on how strong it is. Choice Specs Torkoal is insanely powerful and can 2HKO stuff like phys def Arcanine, Rhyperior, and Goodra with Fire Blast, with the only real counter being SpDef Hydreigon (which is 2HKOd by max HP Eruption). It's only really fast enough for the slower stuff, but if you run it on a Sticky Web team it can get around that to an extent. Choice Scarf is another option to get around its low speed, but is consequentially weaker, although more than strong enough to lay the hurt against frailer teams. Its physical bulk in Flipped is not much worse than in standard play, as such it's still one of the best and only consistent switch-ins to Dracovish (which is a little weaker too). It can generally check water-types like Keldeo, Araquanid, and Primarina, and can usually take at least one hit from most physical attackers, but I'd say overall its niche is a little more narrow than in standard play. Still though, Dracovish is a huge threat, and Seismitoad is one of the only really safe switch-ins to it that offers some utility too, so as such you can justify its use. The usefulness of this mon has dropped a lot since you Shell Smash was banned, but it's still effective against most of the fast physically frail mons (bar Snorlax) with Shadow Sneak. It has decent power and speed that's good enough to outspeed the defensive mons it needs to beat with investment. It is majorly checked by Arcanine but can beat down most physical walls with SD, so its use is pretty niche and competes with Sylveon a little bit, but being able to safely put a stop to RP Steelix, DD Gyarados, any setup Virizion or Keldeo, etc. is nice. For what it's worth, it's also a good Trick Room setter too, outslowing pretty much everything viable (not Shuckle). You can also spinblock with it too if you're feeling ballsy. Overall I'd say Mimikyu is a C-ish rank mon. Excellent offensive check to Sylveon, with Scarf it can revenge kill Rhyperior, Snorlax, Kyurem, etc, and unless they have Arcanine you can generally clean with it late-game. Trick is a great tool as well, since you can trick Arcanine or Roserade and open up the door for your Sylveon that way. Even after you lose the scarf, Jirachi's neat speed tier still puts it ahead of Avalugg, Cobalion, Goodra, and others so it can still pressure them with Iron Head. Defensive sets are a legit option as a resilient check to Sylveon and Stealth Rock setter. I think Keldeo is really good too. SD is a nice set since it can pick off Rhyperior and Steelix with Aqua Jet and actually be pretty strong, but I think SubCM is even better, since it surprises so many of the checks to the SD set. So many of it's would-be checks like Primarina, Zeraora, Clefable, Espeon are more frail on the special side and can have the matchup flipped on their heads if they get Scald burned. Very overrated mon that's easily checked by almost every relevant physical wall. Priority was very nice for dealing with Shell Smashers but now it is a lot less useful of a niche. Nowadays it deals with Rhyperior and Snorlax well but is far from able to answer to Sylveon since Bullet Punch doesn't do nearly enough damage and it can be outprioritized by Quick Attack. Most of the time I've faced this mon it's been a momentum suck as I was able to switch in on it fairly easily. Don't get me wrong, it's still.... usable, I just don't think it's anywhere NEAR the level the VR currently has it at. I think Snorlax is a little overrated too. It really isn't all the powerful unless it gets a Belly Drum off (at which point it can be picked off fairly easily). Band Snorlax just isn't strong enough with it's middling-power mono-Normal STAB and 110 base Attack to break through most of the tanks you'll encounter unless you get lucky with Body Slam paralysis. And of course, Scarf Snorlax is a great revenge killer but lost a lot of luster with Shell Smash being removed.
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Hey, it’s me, the guy who currently sits at the top of the Flipped ladder as both AGuyWithAName and Soul Dew Latias, here to talk about the team I’ve been using and having a lot of success with. It revolves around a powerful defensive core with some offensive threats to back them up.
Stronk (Cloyster) (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Overcoat
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Mud Shot
- Surf
X-Balloon (Drifblim) (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Aftermath
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Strength Sap
- Knock Off
- Defog
Desert Bus (Tyranitar) (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sand Stream
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Earth Power
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Stone Edge
Delete Button (Salazzle) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Corrosion
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Protect
- Rest
- Substitute
Uno Reverse Cat (Espeon) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Careful Nature
- Heal Bell
- Wish
- Protect
- Psychic Fangs
Looking at Hands (Ditto) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
IVs: 30 Atk
- Transform
Ability: Overcoat
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Mud Shot
- Surf
X-Balloon (Drifblim) (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Aftermath
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Strength Sap
- Knock Off
- Defog
Desert Bus (Tyranitar) (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sand Stream
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Earth Power
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Stone Edge
Delete Button (Salazzle) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Corrosion
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Protect
- Rest
- Substitute
Uno Reverse Cat (Espeon) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Careful Nature
- Heal Bell
- Wish
- Protect
- Psychic Fangs
Looking at Hands (Ditto) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
IVs: 30 Atk
- Transform
The main core of the team is Espeon/Tyranitar. Espeon is a defensive monster which uses high HP Wish for effective resurrection of its team members. It beats out strong physical Pokemon like the Hitmons, Snorlax, and pretty much anything that can’t hit it for SE damage. It also discourages many Pokemon from throwing out hazards or status moves for fear of having them turned around. Tyranitar is on the opposite end of the spectrum, acting as a mixed offensive powerhouse, taking down special threats with ease, acting as a check to even powerhouses like Steelix and Avalugg, as well as Cosmic Power Necrozma or Corviknight, and is a hard counter to Mandibuzz. It’s prone to getting worn down over time, but when combined with Wish support from Espeon, it’s got a lot more longevity to it. This core is backed up by two other strong defensive mons, Salazzle and Drifblim. Salazzle, while not as strong of a defensive mon as Espeon, can still take a fair amount of punishment. However, unlike Espeon, Salazzle is capable of wearing things down via Toxic, even Steels and Poison types, and is a flat out counter to Sylveon (Espeon can be vulnerable to boosted Facade or Banded Double Edge if it isn’t careful, Salazzle takes negligible damage from both of them). It’s able to stall out a majority of the metagame if it gets a Toxic off on them, and if it gets too low on health, it can bring it back up using Rest. Rest also allows it to PP stall certain things that it can’t explicitly stall otherwise. No offensive moves means it struggles against Substitute mons and Taunt mons, but Espeon can use Heal Bell to wake it up and get it back in the action very quickly. I think changing Rest to Encore could also work out, as it can help with the Substitute problem, but at the cost of some longevity. Wish can still keep it in the game, of course. Drifblim may seem like an odd choice for a mon to use, but I’d argue it’s one of the best users of Defog in this meta. First off, 80/90/80 bulk is not all that bad with investment. Secondly, with 150 Base Speed, you’ll be at 336 Speed even without any investment, which allows you to get off your stuff before most of the unboosted metagame. Finally, the thing that makes Drifblim the most worth considering is Strength Sap, an incredibly strong recovery option that lowers the foe’s Attack by one stage. With all of these elements to consider, Drifblim is able to wall surprisingly effectively, Defog away hazards with relative speed and safety, and cripple attackers with Burns and item removal. It also has some crucial immunities to various typings, including Ground, Fighting, and Normal, allowing it to switch in effectively against certain attacks. To round off the team, we have Cloyster and Ditto. Cloyster is, in my opinion, better than Avalugg due to having STAB on its Water moves. It lacks Sturdy, but in exchange, it’s much less vulnerable to Tyranitar due to having Overcoat, allowing it to potentially knock it out with Hydro Pump and live to Ice Beam another day. (It also synergizes well with my own Tyranitar for the same reason). Steelix would also work well here, but I like to have a strong Ice move to hurt things like Hydreigon, Dragapult, and other things like that. The Shell Smash ban only means I can run Surf instead, which helps when I don’t want to miss Hydro Pump. Lastly, Ditto exists and is good. It prevents setup sweepers like Steelix and DDance Tyranitar from running through the team, and can sometimes pull a counter sweep. It also OHKOes physical Araquanid with its own Liquidation, and with how strong Araquanid is, this can lead to additional destruction if the foe has no answers to it. The team overall has a few notable weaknesses. Drifblim is the only reliable switchin to a Banded/Scarfed Diggersby EQ, and even then, if it clicks Ice Punch or Thunder Punch instead, you’re left without a reliable way to answer it (even Espeon doesn’t take an EQ well). It also doesn’t deal with strong Substitute setup mons well, like DDance Dragapult, Bulk Up Zeraora, and that one absolutely wild DDance Kyurem with Icicle Spear as its only attacking move I faced once. Overall, I’ve found massive success with this team, the only revisions I’ve made to it after initially creating it are changing Zen Headbutt to Psychic Fangs on Espeon and changing Shell Smash to Surf on Cloyster after it got banned (but I found that I wasn’t relying a lot on it anyway). It’s been super fun to wade through this absolutely backwards meta with this squad.
Why is Hitmontop A+ rank?
70 / 110 / 35 / 90 / 95 / 50
Sure, it gets Intimidate, but 70 / 35 physical bulk is still trash, and 70 / 95 special bulk is nothing great. Attacking stats are usable I guess, but the speed is trash. What niche does it have? Technician-boosted priority? Access to Rapid Spin? Even if it's decent, I'm confused as to how it's on the same level as Goodra, Snorlax, and Steelix, and above Dragapult and Zeraora.
70 / 110 / 35 / 90 / 95 / 50
Sure, it gets Intimidate, but 70 / 35 physical bulk is still trash, and 70 / 95 special bulk is nothing great. Attacking stats are usable I guess, but the speed is trash. What niche does it have? Technician-boosted priority? Access to Rapid Spin? Even if it's decent, I'm confused as to how it's on the same level as Goodra, Snorlax, and Steelix, and above Dragapult and Zeraora.
Hitmontop's niche is strong Technician priority paired with Rapid Spin support. Rhyperior, Snorlax, Steelix, and Avalugg are all top tier threats who are both fast and powerful, and Hitmontop is probably the only priority user that can reliably OHKO all of them (Sturdy notwithstanding, but even then, Top can break these first with Fake Out). And while it's physical defense is garbage, its Special Defense is actually quite respectable, especially with an Assault Vest, so it can actually switch into all of the above bar Snorlax, unlike other good priority users like Primarina. Throw in Rapid Spin and you have a very splashable, anti-meta pokemon.
I do think you and readytolose might have a point about it being too high though. It is not hard to wall and it is easily worn down, and over the past couple days since the SS ban, the meta has become more balanced, making Top's services much less mandatory. I have also toyed with the idea of giving its cousins Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan a spot much lower down on the ranking. With no Technician, their damage output is straight-up outclassed by Top, but they do have much more longevity, especially Lee (although Chan can occasionally nab some passive healing through Drain Punch).
I think you brought up some really good points here. Earlier today I was thinking the same thing about Chandelure (maybe B), and I agree that the Rotoms, Torkoal, and Mimikyu deserve to be ranked somewhere. Maybe B-, B-, and C/C- respectively (they are brought down, respectively, by: low speed and lack of healing; heavy dependence on Choice items; limitation to Trick Rooms teams).I got a lot of hot takes about the current VR now, hopefully these are worth reading.
Regarding the others you mentioned...
Seismitoad: I'm concerned that it won't be able be of much use against teams that lack a Dracovish, other than maybe setting Stealth Rocks. Its offenses are really mediocre, and probably can't make use of its good speed since it needs to fully invest in its defenses.
Throh: Fast and decently strong, but unfortunately, I don't know if "decently strong" is good enough to warrant the use of frail mons, despite the speed. See Lapras.
Darmanitan-Z: Seems like a bit of a gimmick, but I haven't tried it or seen it used yet, so I can't say.
Ditto: As you said, it's the same as every meta. The counter-sweeping niche is still there, but then it's also close to dead weight against defensive teams. Deciding whether that's enough to put it on the VR seems to be an age-old question at this point.
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I feel like pointing you lost with this team to me, and I feel you'd lose to any team using the same concept of abusing fake out + substitute (for salazzle, 1 sub mon is enough). You also won the same MU once, so I wouldn't say it's a guaranteed loss (clearly), but I feel It's worth noting
I heavily disagree ditto is dead against defensive teams in this meta. Lots of HO Pokemon die to defensive Pokemon and their 'weak' moves (think Steelix ohko to double kick from bulky sylv); having ditto to copy the opposing defensive set for extra stall or a hgih quality scout is still very important. Especially Pokemon such as Salazzle or Whimsicott, where knowing their set is the only way to counter them properly, are good ditto fodder on def. teams.
Hi guys Its me, everyone's favourite ladder hunter
Here are my thoughts
ban steelix
Toxapex only has base 50 speed in this meta- HP and Speed swap.
Ah, thanks, I misunderstood how the mechanics worked.
Flygon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Defog
- Earth Power
- Roost
- U-turn
100/80/80/80/100/80
- Reliable hazard control; resists rocks and unaffected by spikes, plus gets many opportunities to Defog.
- Very solid SpDef wall, but it does need to watch out for Ice Beam from Rhyperior and Dragon Pulse from Steelix (neither OHKO).
- Roost is self-explanatory, consistent recovery.
- U-turn is very nice for keeping momentum, slower than some threats and lets you get Sylveon or scarf mons in safely.
Not a perfect mon, but it eats a lot of mons bar super-effective hits from the biggest threats. Its ground immunity provides a lot of synergy with physically defensive Arcanine, who can take an Ice Beam or the like for Flygon. I've been having a lot of success with it on ladder, I think it might have a place on the VR. It deals well with mons like Cobalion, Coalossal, Rotoms, even Torkoal.
252 SpA Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Flygon in Sun: 140-165 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- 59.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Cobalion Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Flygon: 141-166 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- 67.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Cobalion Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Flygon: 94-112 (23.3 - 27.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Coalossal Scald vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Flygon: 60-71 (14.8 - 17.6%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Cobalion Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Flygon: 141-166 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- 67.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Cobalion Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Flygon: 94-112 (23.3 - 27.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Coalossal Scald vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Flygon: 60-71 (14.8 - 17.6%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ok, Sylveon is WAY too overrated. What does it have for physical moves? Body slam, Dig, maybe Bite, Double-Edge, Quick Attack, Facade, Double Kick, and Iron Tail. That's it! And it can't use support because it just dies to strong special attacks. Other top notch pokemons, rhyp and steelix, to be exact, can easily KO it. Steelix after an Autotomise to outspeed, and Rhyp deletes sylveon with STAB Earth Power. I don't even need calcs for them.
Also even Hitmontop, a Fighting-Type thats slower than it and is physical, can 1v1 Sylveon if it use Double Edge
43.3% recoil from double edge
minimum of 22.6% damage from fake out
minimum of 45.2% damage from bullet punch
exactly 111.1% damage to sylveon (its legit 111.1)
Nomming Sylveon down to A/A-, and as I stated before, Kommo-o is good. Nomming it to go on the VR at B or B+ it suffers from sylveon and otherwise would be better.
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8flipped-1111350685 <-- A switch-in to sylveon and the clutch crit allowed Kommo-o to sweep most of my opponents team. Also I misclicked clangorous soul and otherwise might've won.
Also even Hitmontop, a Fighting-Type thats slower than it and is physical, can 1v1 Sylveon if it use Double Edge
43.3% recoil from double edge
minimum of 22.6% damage from fake out
minimum of 45.2% damage from bullet punch
exactly 111.1% damage to sylveon (its legit 111.1)
Nomming Sylveon down to A/A-, and as I stated before, Kommo-o is good. Nomming it to go on the VR at B or B+ it suffers from sylveon and otherwise would be better.
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8flipped-1111350685 <-- A switch-in to sylveon and the clutch crit allowed Kommo-o to sweep most of my opponents team. Also I misclicked clangorous soul and otherwise might've won.
Sylveon quick attack ohko's hitmontop, irrelevant
Sylveon uses Double Kick on Steelix's automatize or it doesn't come in on steelix or uses quick attack to clean steelix if it's under 30%
Sylveon KOs rhyp with quick attack from 60'ish
Sylveon banded QA ohkos araquanid or 2hkos bulky araquanid
but yeah "sylveon is overrated"
just gonna repost my Necrozma set cause it's not on the VR and nobody's talking about it, even though it's really good...
Stats: 79/89/127/101/107/97
Necrozma @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
-Stealth Rock
-Moonlight
-Psyshock
-Thunder Wave
Necrozma is crazy bulky with 79/127/107 defenses, and it acts as an amazing blanket check to many fast attackers, as well as a reliable Stealth Rock setter. It has few weaknesses and doesn't care about them a whole lot due to Prism Armor. Psyshock is used over Photon Geyser for mons like Rhyperior, Avalugg, Snorlax, and Hitmontop, who is hard-countered by Necrozma.
Stats: 79/89/127/101/107/97
Necrozma @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
-Stealth Rock
-Moonlight
-Psyshock
-Thunder Wave
Necrozma is crazy bulky with 79/127/107 defenses, and it acts as an amazing blanket check to many fast attackers, as well as a reliable Stealth Rock setter. It has few weaknesses and doesn't care about them a whole lot due to Prism Armor. Psyshock is used over Photon Geyser for mons like Rhyperior, Avalugg, Snorlax, and Hitmontop, who is hard-countered by Necrozma.
252 SpA Life Orb Rhyperior Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Necrozma: 133-156 (36.7 - 43%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rhyperior: 139-165 (62.8 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Avalugg Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Necrozma: 132-156 (36.4 - 43%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Avalugg: 163-193 (82.7 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(90% of Avaluggs run HDB)
252 SpA Coalossal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Necrozma: 118-139 (32.5 - 38.3%) -- 3.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Coalossal: 105-124 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Hitmontop Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Necrozma: 68-81 (18.7 - 22.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Hitmontop Brutal Swing vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Prism Armor Necrozma: 152-179 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hitmontop: 384-452 (111.6 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Necrozma: 102-120 (28.1 - 33.1%) -- 88% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 123-145 (61.1 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rhyperior: 139-165 (62.8 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Avalugg Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Necrozma: 132-156 (36.4 - 43%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Avalugg: 163-193 (82.7 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(90% of Avaluggs run HDB)
252 SpA Coalossal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Necrozma: 118-139 (32.5 - 38.3%) -- 3.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Coalossal: 105-124 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Hitmontop Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Necrozma: 68-81 (18.7 - 22.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Hitmontop Brutal Swing vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Prism Armor Necrozma: 152-179 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hitmontop: 384-452 (111.6 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Necrozma: 102-120 (28.1 - 33.1%) -- 88% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 123-145 (61.1 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Necrozma: 187-222 (51.6 - 61.3%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Diggersby: 150-177 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Sylveon Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Necrozma: 229-271 (63.2 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 81-96 (31 - 36.7%) -- 65.1% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Necrozma: 208-246 (57.4 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Steelix: 69-82 (34.3 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Diggersby: 150-177 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Sylveon Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Necrozma: 229-271 (63.2 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 81-96 (31 - 36.7%) -- 65.1% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Necrozma: 208-246 (57.4 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Steelix: 69-82 (34.3 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Seconding how insanely tanky Necrozma is, but I run this set. Dark types are obviously a major issue (Sylveon helps), but this thing can tank an Ice Beam from Avalugg (and similar mons) and set up in its face. If the opponent deals with it poorly and doesn't have Toxic or a dark type, it can sweep entire teams pretty easily.just gonna repost my Necrozma set cause it's not on the VR and nobody's talking about it, even though it's really good...
Stats: 79/89/127/101/107/97
Necrozma @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
-Stealth Rock
-Moonlight
-Psyshock
-Thunder Wave
Necrozma is crazy bulky with 79/127/107 defenses, and it acts as an amazing blanket check to many fast attackers, as well as a reliable Stealth Rock setter. It has few weaknesses and doesn't care about them a whole lot due to Prism Armor. Psyshock is used over Photon Geyser for mons like Rhyperior, Avalugg, Snorlax, and Hitmontop, who is hard-countered by Necrozma.
252 SpA Life Orb Rhyperior Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Necrozma: 133-156 (36.7 - 43%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rhyperior: 139-165 (62.8 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Avalugg Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Necrozma: 132-156 (36.4 - 43%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Avalugg: 163-193 (82.7 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(90% of Avaluggs run HDB)
252 SpA Coalossal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Necrozma: 118-139 (32.5 - 38.3%) -- 3.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Coalossal: 105-124 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Hitmontop Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Necrozma: 68-81 (18.7 - 22.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Hitmontop Brutal Swing vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Prism Armor Necrozma: 152-179 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hitmontop: 384-452 (111.6 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Necrozma: 102-120 (28.1 - 33.1%) -- 88% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 123-145 (61.1 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO252 Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Necrozma: 187-222 (51.6 - 61.3%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Diggersby: 150-177 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Sylveon Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Necrozma: 229-271 (63.2 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 81-96 (31 - 36.7%) -- 65.1% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Necrozma: 208-246 (57.4 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Necrozma Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Steelix: 69-82 (34.3 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Necrozma @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense
- Stored Power
- Morning Sun
I agree Seismitoad should be on the VR. I haven't even run into a Dracovish yet, but it's been a reliable rocker for my team. It does the same thing it does in standard singles pretty much, and that's fine. It can eat at least one hit from many of the glass cannons with proper defense investment, and has nice type resistances (fire and rock are common on a lot of the threatening breakers it seems, while water absorb can make the opponent think twice about aqua jetting your Rhyperior). It's a bit niche, yes, but it can be the perfect piece to fit into your team regardless.
Thanks to everyone who offered their thoughts on the Viability Ranking. The council has discussed and voted on all of the proposed additions, rises, and drops, and our conclusions are listed below. The VR has been adjusted accordingly.
Additions
UR to A- : Versatile with great defenses and recovery. Great as Stealth Rock setter or Stored Power sweeper.
UR to B+ : Physically defensive spin blocker with much better damage output than Gengar
UR to B- : Similar to standard. Clangorous Soul is still effective, though harder to pull off.
UR to B- : Physically defensive Defogger with strong Volt Switch, that gets many opportunities with all the Sylveon & Hitmontop
UR to C+ : Typing has less value than Rotom-H, although it can run Leftovers over HDB
UR to C+ : As in any meta, potent revenge killer against offensive teams, though there are fewer set-up sweepers here
UR to C+ : Powerful Choice user, though it is heavily dependent on these items
UR to C : Specially defensive Defogger, but faces competition with Hydreigon and has mediocre offenses
UR to C : Very fast Guts user, but its damage output is still too low to easily justify using such a frail mon
UR to C- : Niche on Trick Room teams
UR to C- : Niche as a Dracovish counter
Rises
A to A+ : Superb switch-in to Sylveon, Togekiss, & Hitmontop. Great at spreading burns and pivoting.
B+ to A- : Another excellent Sylveon/Hitmontop counter. One of the few to check Araquanid & Dracovish. Great hazard setter.
C+ to B- : Purest fairy counter in the meta, with excellent support from Corrosion Toxic and Fire Lash.
C to C+ : Espeon and Clefable compression is very useful for balance teams
Drops
A+ to A : Still offers unparalleled priority, but less effective with all the Sylveon and Arcanine running around
A+ to A : Harder for it score KOs now that the meta is less hyper-offensive
A- to B+ : While it is still one of the best Swords Dance users, the meta is not kind to it.
Discussed but Unchanged
Remains at S : Still incredibly potent despite the rise in counters
Remains at A : The best Substitute set-up sweeper, especially against defensive teams. Steelix & Rhyperior are threats, but Sub helps a lot.
Remains at B+ : Damage output is too low to warrant a rise.
Remains at B- : Extremely versatile, but outclassed in most roles.
Additions
UR to A- : Versatile with great defenses and recovery. Great as Stealth Rock setter or Stored Power sweeper. UR to B+ : Physically defensive spin blocker with much better damage output than Gengar UR to B- : Similar to standard. Clangorous Soul is still effective, though harder to pull off. UR to B- : Physically defensive Defogger with strong Volt Switch, that gets many opportunities with all the Sylveon & Hitmontop UR to C+ : Typing has less value than Rotom-H, although it can run Leftovers over HDB UR to C+ : As in any meta, potent revenge killer against offensive teams, though there are fewer set-up sweepers here UR to C+ : Powerful Choice user, though it is heavily dependent on these items UR to C : Specially defensive Defogger, but faces competition with Hydreigon and has mediocre offenses UR to C : Very fast Guts user, but its damage output is still too low to easily justify using such a frail mon UR to C- : Niche on Trick Room teams UR to C- : Niche as a Dracovish counterRises
A to A+ : Superb switch-in to Sylveon, Togekiss, & Hitmontop. Great at spreading burns and pivoting. B+ to A- : Another excellent Sylveon/Hitmontop counter. One of the few to check Araquanid & Dracovish. Great hazard setter. C+ to B- : Purest fairy counter in the meta, with excellent support from Corrosion Toxic and Fire Lash. C to C+ : Espeon and Clefable compression is very useful for balance teamsDrops
A+ to A : Still offers unparalleled priority, but less effective with all the Sylveon and Arcanine running around A+ to A : Harder for it score KOs now that the meta is less hyper-offensive A- to B+ : While it is still one of the best Swords Dance users, the meta is not kind to it.Discussed but Unchanged
Remains at S : Still incredibly potent despite the rise in counters Remains at A : The best Substitute set-up sweeper, especially against defensive teams. Steelix & Rhyperior are threats, but Sub helps a lot. Remains at B+ : Damage output is too low to warrant a rise. Remains at B- : Extremely versatile, but outclassed in most roles.
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First true community post! Hi everyone!
The fact that Necrozma has a solid Stored Power set is known at this point, but here's another variant I've been having some success with.
Chaos Heart (Necrozma) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Cosmic Power
- Autotomize
- Moonlight/Morning Sun
Lacks Calm Mind Iron Defense's raw power, but has the ability to setup on fast offensive pokemon that are both physical and special. Usually beats Avalugg and Rhyperior 1v1 as long as you don't get critted.
The fact that Necrozma has a solid Stored Power set is known at this point, but here's another variant I've been having some success with.
Chaos Heart (Necrozma) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Cosmic Power
- Autotomize
- Moonlight/Morning Sun
Lacks Calm Mind Iron Defense's raw power, but has the ability to setup on fast offensive pokemon that are both physical and special. Usually beats Avalugg and Rhyperior 1v1 as long as you don't get critted.
if there was a command that the player could use to look up the 'flipped' stats of a pokemon in battle. That will be pretty helpful
/dt [pokemon], flipped
or /dt [pokemon] in a flipped battle
I've been playing a lot of Flipped lately (my alts are "how does win" and any variants of that), and I think I've come to get a good understanding of what some of the more unbalanced aspects of this meta are. So I think it's about time to voice my concerns, there is definitely an elephant in the room that I think needs to be addressed....
The "Ban Steelix" Post
Yup. Steelix is probably the most problematic Pokemon to deal with in the tier. When talking about Steelix, the first thing to establish is that it basically doesn't have any switch-ins. To add to that, the handful of things that can be considered defensive "checks" to Steelix have some combination of an inability to adequately pressure Steelix back, a lack of recovery, or are bopped by some less common coverage move Steelix can use, or some combination of these three factors. Steelix also has a degree of unpredictability, largely in the form of its Scarf set, making it harder to deal with until you know what set it is precisely.
Steelix @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon
- Dark Pulse
- Autotomize / Stealth Rock
Edit: Apparently Ancient Power is incompatible with Sheer Force, shows what I know. It's still a usable option on non-Sheer Force sets.
This is the main, most threatening Steelix set. STAB moves plus Dark Pulse are generally the best coverage options, and they are all boosted by Sheer Force. To give you a reference of how powerful Steelix is, its Life Orb Sheer Force Earth Power has about the same raw power as Primal Kyogre's Origin Pulse, and its Flash Cannon is not far behind. Being a breaker that's fairly resistant to hazards means that hazard stacking is not as effective of a means to handle Steelix as it could be. While it is slow, it's still fast enough to beat the defensive mons it needs to, and if Sticky Web is up, its effective speed lets it beat out most non-scarfed Pokemon. Here's some calcs against some of the meta's most specially defensive mons best suited to try and handle Steelix, to give you an idea of how they fare:
I could go on with calcs for a while but I think you get the picture; answering defensively to Steelix is nigh-impossible. This isn't quite the full picture of what Steelix is capable of, however.
Autotomize/Rock Polish:
This is a move that Steelix can easily slot as the last move on its Life Orb set. If it sets up on a predicted sack and it is outside of the range of the opposing Sylveon, Steelix can easily clean up games. It can also set up on passive mons like Espeon, Xatu, more passive variants of Hydreigon, and other things, but most of its setup opportunities will come from predicted switches. The main answer to this set is to keep your Steelix check pristine and maintain pressure on Steelix to prevent it from setting up, but that leads to lame 50/50 situations where you leave something in to prevent it from setting up and it just kills you. Revenge killing a +2 speed Steelix takes either a priority mon that can OHKO it (Hitmontop, Primarina, or Keldeo), Scarf Ditto, or Scarf Snorlax.... that's about it. +2 Timid Steelix just barely outspeeds Scarf Timid Rhyperior, limiting the amount of scarfers that can be used to safely answer to this beast. Too often I have pivoted out of an opposing Steelix, only to see it Rock Polish and sweep my team.
Scarf:
Steelix @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon
- Dark Pulse
- Stealth Rock / Dragon Pulse / Steel Beam
The other really good Steelix set uses Choice Scarf. This set still boasts enough power to OHKO or severely damage most offensive threats and can surprise a lot of things that would normally be faster. When you add in the fact that Life Orb Steelix can bluff being Scarf Steelix in certain situations (since it doesn't take Life Orb recoil) and you get an annoying guessing game when dealing with Steelix, especially early in the match. Say for instance that you have Specs Rhyperior out against Steelix. If it's Scarf and you stay in you get OHKO'd, if it's Life Orb and you switch out whatever you bring in will get 2HKO'd, or it Autotomizes and sweeps your team. These guessing games are far more punishing than they typically would be with Pokemon that have multiple good sets, since Steelix is more than powerful enough to act as a breaker even if running Choice Scarf, so long as you can predict correctly. For reference, Timid Sheer Force Earth Power still OHKOs uninvested offensive mons like Dracovish and Keldeo most of the time, and Steelix can still 2HKO or OHKO most everything except some of the "checks" listed above.
Sturdy:
Really the cherry on top, Sturdy is one of those things that's way less consistent, but you'll lose to occasionally and it will make you feel like an idiot. Since you can't run Life Orb with Sturdy, you'll lose out on a lot of power if running this set but it will allow for janky setups like HDB to always survive a hit while hazards are up, or Weakness Policy + Autotomize to get sweeps going that way. These options are all far less consistent and don't play as much into Steelix's strengths, but they're all options to consider and add to Steelix's surprising versatility and make it more of a headache to deal with.
TLDR:
-Steelix is absurdly powerful and has virtually no defensive checks
-It can use its other options like Scarf, Autotomize, or Sturdy to punish some of its usual counterplay
-Even without Life Orb, Steelix is very strong and capable of breaking through teams
-Ban Steelix
The "Ban Steelix" Post Yup. Steelix is probably the most problematic Pokemon to deal with in the tier. When talking about Steelix, the first thing to establish is that it basically doesn't have any switch-ins. To add to that, the handful of things that can be considered defensive "checks" to Steelix have some combination of an inability to adequately pressure Steelix back, a lack of recovery, or are bopped by some less common coverage move Steelix can use, or some combination of these three factors. Steelix also has a degree of unpredictability, largely in the form of its Scarf set, making it harder to deal with until you know what set it is precisely.
Steelix @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon
- Dark Pulse
- Autotomize / Stealth Rock
Edit: Apparently Ancient Power is incompatible with Sheer Force, shows what I know. It's still a usable option on non-Sheer Force sets.
This is the main, most threatening Steelix set. STAB moves plus Dark Pulse are generally the best coverage options, and they are all boosted by Sheer Force. To give you a reference of how powerful Steelix is, its Life Orb Sheer Force Earth Power has about the same raw power as Primal Kyogre's Origin Pulse, and its Flash Cannon is not far behind. Being a breaker that's fairly resistant to hazards means that hazard stacking is not as effective of a means to handle Steelix as it could be. While it is slow, it's still fast enough to beat the defensive mons it needs to, and if Sticky Web is up, its effective speed lets it beat out most non-scarfed Pokemon. Here's some calcs against some of the meta's most specially defensive mons best suited to try and handle Steelix, to give you an idea of how they fare:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Charizard: 165-195 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Charizard: 182-214 (45 - 52.9%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO
Specially defensive Charizard is something that narrowly avoids being 2HKO'd by Steelix's STABs or Dark Pulse from the Timid Life Orb set. However, with a Modest nature, Charizard runs the chance of losing to Steelix's Dark Pulse anyways. Of course, if Steelix is running Ancient Power, Charizard stands no chance. It's also worth noting that Charizard's uninvested Flamethrower is not a guaranteed OHKO against Steelix either, meaning that it needs to run a move that is otherwise less optimal if it wants to guarantee that OHKO.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cramorant: 164-194 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
Cramorant is very bad, but I did use it on one team as a check to Steelix. It can't even guarantee avoiding the 2HKO from Dark Pulse and is handily 2HKO'd by Ancient Power too. So not a good check.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragapult: 263-309 (53.8 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragapult: 220-259 (45 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Specially defensive Dragapult, who has perhaps the highest raw bulk in the tier, is not a safe answer to Steelix either. It may be weak to Dark Pulse, but even if you ignore that it's still taking way too much from Steelix's STAB moves to adequately answer to it. Add to it that Dragapult lacks recovery and can't pressure Steelix back (Fire moves are 2HKOs at best. Non-statused Hex isn't even a guaranteed 3HKO) and Dragapult's ability to check Steelix looks pretty grim.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Heat: 192-227 (51 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The Rotoms can only pivot in on a STAB move at best. Dark Pulse is a 2HKO against all variants of Rotom. Being reliant on Pain Split for recovery is a big limiting factor too.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hawlucha: 234-277 (53.1 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Hawlucha can pivot in on Steelix and is actually capable of OHKOing it, even if it has Sturdy for some reason, thanks to Mold Breaker. But as you can see, Hawlucha is still not a counter.
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 183-216 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Assault Vest Goodra is something I've seen on the ladder for its great mixed bulk and respectable power, but as you can see, even with maximum investment in bulk, Modest Earth Power is still a guaranteed 2HKO.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hitmontop: 214-253 (62.2 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hitmontop is a decent offensive check to Steelix that is capable of revenging it even if it gets a speed boost. Defensively, it is far from a safe answer though, as it needs bulk investment and an Assault Vest to even switch in safely once.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 344-407 (100.8 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Just for reference, Steelix OHKOs anything with roughly 100/100 uninvested special bulk or less. This includes Dracovish, Goodra, Shuca Cobalion (much to my dismay), Virizion, Keldeo, among other things.
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Charizard: 182-214 (45 - 52.9%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO
Specially defensive Charizard is something that narrowly avoids being 2HKO'd by Steelix's STABs or Dark Pulse from the Timid Life Orb set. However, with a Modest nature, Charizard runs the chance of losing to Steelix's Dark Pulse anyways. Of course, if Steelix is running Ancient Power, Charizard stands no chance. It's also worth noting that Charizard's uninvested Flamethrower is not a guaranteed OHKO against Steelix either, meaning that it needs to run a move that is otherwise less optimal if it wants to guarantee that OHKO.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cramorant: 164-194 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
Cramorant is very bad, but I did use it on one team as a check to Steelix. It can't even guarantee avoiding the 2HKO from Dark Pulse and is handily 2HKO'd by Ancient Power too. So not a good check.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragapult: 263-309 (53.8 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragapult: 220-259 (45 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Specially defensive Dragapult, who has perhaps the highest raw bulk in the tier, is not a safe answer to Steelix either. It may be weak to Dark Pulse, but even if you ignore that it's still taking way too much from Steelix's STAB moves to adequately answer to it. Add to it that Dragapult lacks recovery and can't pressure Steelix back (Fire moves are 2HKOs at best. Non-statused Hex isn't even a guaranteed 3HKO) and Dragapult's ability to check Steelix looks pretty grim.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Heat: 192-227 (51 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The Rotoms can only pivot in on a STAB move at best. Dark Pulse is a 2HKO against all variants of Rotom. Being reliant on Pain Split for recovery is a big limiting factor too.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hawlucha: 234-277 (53.1 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Hawlucha can pivot in on Steelix and is actually capable of OHKOing it, even if it has Sturdy for some reason, thanks to Mold Breaker. But as you can see, Hawlucha is still not a counter.
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 183-216 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Assault Vest Goodra is something I've seen on the ladder for its great mixed bulk and respectable power, but as you can see, even with maximum investment in bulk, Modest Earth Power is still a guaranteed 2HKO.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hitmontop: 214-253 (62.2 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hitmontop is a decent offensive check to Steelix that is capable of revenging it even if it gets a speed boost. Defensively, it is far from a safe answer though, as it needs bulk investment and an Assault Vest to even switch in safely once.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 344-407 (100.8 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Just for reference, Steelix OHKOs anything with roughly 100/100 uninvested special bulk or less. This includes Dracovish, Goodra, Shuca Cobalion (much to my dismay), Virizion, Keldeo, among other things.
I could go on with calcs for a while but I think you get the picture; answering defensively to Steelix is nigh-impossible. This isn't quite the full picture of what Steelix is capable of, however.
Autotomize/Rock Polish:
This is a move that Steelix can easily slot as the last move on its Life Orb set. If it sets up on a predicted sack and it is outside of the range of the opposing Sylveon, Steelix can easily clean up games. It can also set up on passive mons like Espeon, Xatu, more passive variants of Hydreigon, and other things, but most of its setup opportunities will come from predicted switches. The main answer to this set is to keep your Steelix check pristine and maintain pressure on Steelix to prevent it from setting up, but that leads to lame 50/50 situations where you leave something in to prevent it from setting up and it just kills you. Revenge killing a +2 speed Steelix takes either a priority mon that can OHKO it (Hitmontop, Primarina, or Keldeo), Scarf Ditto, or Scarf Snorlax.... that's about it. +2 Timid Steelix just barely outspeeds Scarf Timid Rhyperior, limiting the amount of scarfers that can be used to safely answer to this beast. Too often I have pivoted out of an opposing Steelix, only to see it Rock Polish and sweep my team.
Scarf:
Steelix @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon
- Dark Pulse
- Stealth Rock / Dragon Pulse / Steel Beam
The other really good Steelix set uses Choice Scarf. This set still boasts enough power to OHKO or severely damage most offensive threats and can surprise a lot of things that would normally be faster. When you add in the fact that Life Orb Steelix can bluff being Scarf Steelix in certain situations (since it doesn't take Life Orb recoil) and you get an annoying guessing game when dealing with Steelix, especially early in the match. Say for instance that you have Specs Rhyperior out against Steelix. If it's Scarf and you stay in you get OHKO'd, if it's Life Orb and you switch out whatever you bring in will get 2HKO'd, or it Autotomizes and sweeps your team. These guessing games are far more punishing than they typically would be with Pokemon that have multiple good sets, since Steelix is more than powerful enough to act as a breaker even if running Choice Scarf, so long as you can predict correctly. For reference, Timid Sheer Force Earth Power still OHKOs uninvested offensive mons like Dracovish and Keldeo most of the time, and Steelix can still 2HKO or OHKO most everything except some of the "checks" listed above.
Sturdy:
Really the cherry on top, Sturdy is one of those things that's way less consistent, but you'll lose to occasionally and it will make you feel like an idiot. Since you can't run Life Orb with Sturdy, you'll lose out on a lot of power if running this set but it will allow for janky setups like HDB to always survive a hit while hazards are up, or Weakness Policy + Autotomize to get sweeps going that way. These options are all far less consistent and don't play as much into Steelix's strengths, but they're all options to consider and add to Steelix's surprising versatility and make it more of a headache to deal with.
TLDR:
-Steelix is absurdly powerful and has virtually no defensive checks
-It can use its other options like Scarf, Autotomize, or Sturdy to punish some of its usual counterplay
-Even without Life Orb, Steelix is very strong and capable of breaking through teams
-Ban Steelix
The stuff I'm listing here are either less broken than Steelix (but still problematic imo) or could be problematic further down the line as the meta changes.
I feel like I don't need to explain this one as much, since what it does isn't too different than in standard play (where it is being suspected). Seismitoad handles Dracovish about as well as in standard play, which is to say, it takes a lot from Outrage and can be worn down. Roserade is probably one of the most splashable Fishious Rend switch-ins, but it can be 2HKO'd by Psychic Fangs and gets seriously pressured to heal by it. Offensive checks like Keldeo and Virizion are majorly hurt by Psychic Fangs too and don't take repeated Fishious Rends well at all. There are also obscure water-immune mons like Lapras and Heliolisk that lack recovery or longevity (or are just otherwise bad) to answer to Dracovish consistently. And while Scarf Dracovish lacks the oomph to break more odious physically defensive mons effectively like Espeon and Roserade, it has a much better speed tier than in standard, with the only real common offensive mon that outspeeds even Adamant Scarf Dracovish being Snorlax. Admittedly, Dracovish is pretty vulnerable to priority, especially from Sylveon and Hitmontop, and its Scarf speed tier still falls short on some key targets, but Band largely does much of what it does in standard.
Maybe not broken since it turns over a lot of momentum to threatening breakers, but Espeon definitely makes me want to die whenever I play against it. Espeon gives me a similar feeling to Mega Sableye where it's a Magic Bouncer with recovery that's so bulky, it actively punishes you for using more passive hazard setters and just prevents you from accomplishing anything over the course of a match. Psychic Fangs is easy to throw out since most Steel-types aren't that physically bulky and get worn down (or struggle to even do much to Espeon), Dark types are vulnerable to Toxic, and the best physically defensive Psychic type immune to Toxic is Espeon itself. Sure it's passive as hell and turns over setup opportunities to almost anything with a Sub, but that slack can be picked up by its teammates, anti-setup mons like Encore Whimsicott, Dragapult (especially with Dragon Tail), or strong priority users; all of which appreciate Espeon's wish support. I'm still unsure whether Espeon is just an ugly truth of this meta or it actually warps the game too much; either way, Steelix currently dumpsters defensive cores so hard that it doesn't feel too strong at the moment.
Edit: I forgot to mention but CM + Stored Power Espeon is something I faced a couple times that completely comes out of left field and becomes unbreakable quickly, and it definitely is much harder to punish with status than Mew or Necrozma. Adds another dimension to this otherwise linear mon
Feels a lot like Steelix lite in that it has some similar checks. Rhyperior actually has a few checks but can beat pretty much everything if it brings the right coverage and predicts correctly. The fact that it's not resistant to Sylveon's Quick Attack limits it a lot; it can actually be OHKO'd by Banded Sylveon's Quick Attack. In my eyes it's not too bad at the moment either (especially when Steelix does the "ground-type breaker" thing a lot better), but I'm interested to hear what others think.
Centralizing. You need to bring a switch-in to Sylveon on every team. However, Sylveon's counters are all very strong answers to it, and they aren't useful just for their ability to counter Sylveon, either. Arcanine, Jirachi, Roserade, Salazzle all check more than just Sylveon and provide some sort of utility for the team. Again, doesn't feel broken to me but I want to hear what others think.
I feel like I don't need to explain this one as much, since what it does isn't too different than in standard play (where it is being suspected). Seismitoad handles Dracovish about as well as in standard play, which is to say, it takes a lot from Outrage and can be worn down. Roserade is probably one of the most splashable Fishious Rend switch-ins, but it can be 2HKO'd by Psychic Fangs and gets seriously pressured to heal by it. Offensive checks like Keldeo and Virizion are majorly hurt by Psychic Fangs too and don't take repeated Fishious Rends well at all. There are also obscure water-immune mons like Lapras and Heliolisk that lack recovery or longevity (or are just otherwise bad) to answer to Dracovish consistently. And while Scarf Dracovish lacks the oomph to break more odious physically defensive mons effectively like Espeon and Roserade, it has a much better speed tier than in standard, with the only real common offensive mon that outspeeds even Adamant Scarf Dracovish being Snorlax. Admittedly, Dracovish is pretty vulnerable to priority, especially from Sylveon and Hitmontop, and its Scarf speed tier still falls short on some key targets, but Band largely does much of what it does in standard. Maybe not broken since it turns over a lot of momentum to threatening breakers, but Espeon definitely makes me want to die whenever I play against it. Espeon gives me a similar feeling to Mega Sableye where it's a Magic Bouncer with recovery that's so bulky, it actively punishes you for using more passive hazard setters and just prevents you from accomplishing anything over the course of a match. Psychic Fangs is easy to throw out since most Steel-types aren't that physically bulky and get worn down (or struggle to even do much to Espeon), Dark types are vulnerable to Toxic, and the best physically defensive Psychic type immune to Toxic is Espeon itself. Sure it's passive as hell and turns over setup opportunities to almost anything with a Sub, but that slack can be picked up by its teammates, anti-setup mons like Encore Whimsicott, Dragapult (especially with Dragon Tail), or strong priority users; all of which appreciate Espeon's wish support. I'm still unsure whether Espeon is just an ugly truth of this meta or it actually warps the game too much; either way, Steelix currently dumpsters defensive cores so hard that it doesn't feel too strong at the moment.Edit: I forgot to mention but CM + Stored Power Espeon is something I faced a couple times that completely comes out of left field and becomes unbreakable quickly, and it definitely is much harder to punish with status than Mew or Necrozma. Adds another dimension to this otherwise linear mon
Feels a lot like Steelix lite in that it has some similar checks. Rhyperior actually has a few checks but can beat pretty much everything if it brings the right coverage and predicts correctly. The fact that it's not resistant to Sylveon's Quick Attack limits it a lot; it can actually be OHKO'd by Banded Sylveon's Quick Attack. In my eyes it's not too bad at the moment either (especially when Steelix does the "ground-type breaker" thing a lot better), but I'm interested to hear what others think. Centralizing. You need to bring a switch-in to Sylveon on every team. However, Sylveon's counters are all very strong answers to it, and they aren't useful just for their ability to counter Sylveon, either. Arcanine, Jirachi, Roserade, Salazzle all check more than just Sylveon and provide some sort of utility for the team. Again, doesn't feel broken to me but I want to hear what others think.
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I've been worried about Steelix as well. It's got so many viable sets and scouting it is very dangerous if it does carry set up. It's not even that slow for this Meta, when it comes to running Scarf or outspeeding most defensive Pokemon. I think Dark Pulse is what really pushes it over the edge; breaks through some otherwise solid checks, while packaged with a nasty flinch chance that gives you a good shot at winning anyhow even if you weren't going to.
(insert steelix 2HKOing the whole meta)
Sturdy sets are pretty gimmicky, but it's a terrifying gimmick. I've played with Sturdy/Petaya/Autotomize, you can almost just lead with it against certain teams and rack up a few KOs, then proceed to whittle down the enemy team after. Requires heavy hazard support, but at +2 Speed and +1 Special Attack, with the ability to take any one hit and go from there, it's not the kind of thing you want to accidentally run into when expecting the Sheer Force sets.
On the other Pokemon you mentioned:
I won't lie: I really hate Fishious Rend/Bolt Beak (impartial to their users, it's a funny concept). These two always end up being problematic somewhere, and with all 4 of the Dracos/Arctos having 90 Base Speed it feels like any of them could be a huge problem at some point, especially once/if those HAs drop.
Espeon is pretty linear in how it operates, yes it's frustrating but most of the time I only see them run Psychic Fangs for an attacking move. Which makes sense, it's other options are all pretty terrible. Dark types can really abuse it (along with the other supporting Pokemon you mentioned) and even with good HP, a Strong Special hit will go a long way.
Ridiculously good Pokemon. I love using it, and dread fighting it. Huge amount of item and moveset diversity, can hit practically anything it wants to Super Effectively, and if it can't, Earth Power may as well be Super Effective. Rhyperior's crippling Physical weakness definitely holds it back with all the powerful Priority and fast attackers, but that's what the rest of your 5 team members are for. This thing's S-rank for a reason: it's extremely hard to NOT consider using this on most teams.
Speaking of S-rank, this monstrosity is more proof than ever of how busted Fairy is as a typing. Granted, a lack of Steels which actually match-up well against it is a dream come true for Sylveon. It's definitely centralizing in the sense you need a way to deal with Sylveon, but that's not always indicative of an outright ban. There's a ton of different options to tackle the Sylveon problem; Roserade and Salazzle are some of the hardest Pokemon for it to break through. The former hits it back hard, tanks well, and can use it to get hazards up, or even Leech Seed and just sit there. Body Slam paralysis or the cheesey Yawn won't work long-term if running Natural Cure. Salazzle stonewalls it hard, can use it to easily begin it's really fun and enticing SubToxic torture, but has to fear stray status much more. Beyond these two, any defensively solid Fire/Poison/Steel type helps, with Arcanine standing out thanks to how naturally fat it is + Intimidate/Teleport.
For me, the issue with Sylveon is offensively checking it. Quick Attack hitting so hard and it's access to a strong Double-Edge and potentially stronger Facade is extremely effective against anything which doesn't resist. Common offensive Pokemon can struggle to get in safely, and unless you're packing Priority of your own while managing to creep past 317 Speed, good luck getting the jump on it.
I think that Keldeo should be ranked higher than B in the viability ranking. It has a very usable base 91 speed and is fairly bulky with 108 HP. It’s typing proves to be useful offensively and defensively, working as a semi-reliable switch in to Rhyperior, Steelix, Avalugg, and Dracovish. It’s able to threaten the former three (as well as other defense-weak offensive threats) with aqua jet, which is invaluable in this meta.
While other top tier mons aren’t threatened at all (Sylveon, Roserade, Dragapult), dragapult and roserade don’t like getting taunted
While other top tier mons aren’t threatened at all (Sylveon, Roserade, Dragapult), dragapult and roserade don’t like getting taunted