Foreign metagames

[chenman333]

Heh, so you can choose a legend to be on your team?...interesting.

 

[Haku16]

Wow. Actually, playing this along with Item Clause sounds like a great way to bring some diversity into a competitive Metagame.

i honestly love diversity in the matagame. seeing pokemon that are idolized as amazing or a must have in a team being destroyed by UU or pokemon people thought they arnt as good. is just amazing IMO

Edit: for anypne wanting tp learn a little more on japanese meta i strongly suggest on getting on youtube and watching as many vids as you can. just type in birthday battles in pokemon center. or just watch the vids SeadraDS uploaded.

 

[Sir_Lu]

Doesn't Yamipoli know about the Japanese meta pretty well? She talked about it a while back (lanturn, RSE Hera being retarded there)

 

[Peachfuzz]

Also, I've heard rumours that the Japanese banned Swords dance heracross, although it's proven now that this isn't true.

I think that was in Advance. And it just wasn't SD Hera, it was Heracross.

Interesting to see the different playstyles and rulesets. I think all the restrictions placed (the legendaries thing, item clause), though they may create a balanced metagame, may not be as fun, just because there are so many restrictions.

 

[E.A.]

This is a cool thread I found that pertains to this topic.

 

[FiveKRunner]

Also, I've heard rumours that the Japanese banned Swords dance heracross, although it's proven now that this isn't true.

You probably heard that from me because I threw it around quite a bit when we banned Garchomp. I found it funny that we made fun of Japan for that ban but we were willing to ban a Pokemon that wasn't intended to be banned by Nintendo. Before you get ticked and go on the "Garchomp requires multiple counters" argument, keep in mind that every region's playstyle is unique. Something about the way that the Japanese play makes SD Heracross inherently powerful, as was the case for our metagame and the way Garchomp was able to perform in it.

Anyway, we learned back in 2006 that Japan banned Swords Dance Heracross back in the ADV generation. skarm posted a thread called skarm vs. Japan, which was deleted in the cleanup of the forums some months back. He probably has the thread saved on his computer, if someone wants to ask him. I'm not sure what the simulator was or how he found it but he played with them for quite a bit and actually did pretty well (the battle format was Stadium Mode). He found that he was kicked/they forfeit whenever he would use SD Heracross though.

There were alot of odd quirks with them though. They had a strange obsession with Regirock and it's already been pointed out that they make good use of many Pokemon that are normally overlooked. Micuat, our resident Japanese player in the Showdown 2009 thread, might be able to direct us to a simulator that they use.

Anyway, I really like the Japanese playstyle. It's not like ours, which tends to settle in around raw power and brute force. They seem to prefer a more offensive (or maybe frail/creative is the better word) metagame and I think that's why what we see as gimmick sets on seldom used Pokemon are so successful. In an offensive metagame, not being able to anticipate what your opponent may do could lose you the entire match on just one turn's worth of move selection.



To sum up:
Ask skarm about his experience with the Japanese metagame back in ADV and ask micuat about any current Japanese simulators that we could try out. The "gimmick UU/BL" Pokemon work so well in their metagame because it is offensive, when the entire match can be determined by one surprising moveset.

 

[Thorns]

Yes, you bring up a good point. We cannot say our metagame is better. A typical Smogon team vs a typical Japanese team could go either way, due to the Japanese metagame affecting their playstyle. I'd have a lot of fun playing Japanese mons!

I think, if someone rocked up to the Japanese simulator and used DD MixMence, it would be beaten quite easily due to the radical difference between the two metagames. Conversely, a typical Tyranitar set in Japan could easily be beaten in Smogon.

 

[Pink]

Someone find a simulator. I'd love to see the workings of their Metagame and try it out myself. Mostly, I'd love to try out a standard OU team over there, and see how it fairs.

 

[Misa]

Before you get ticked and go on the "Garchomp requires multiple counters" argument, keep in mind that every region's playstyle is unique.
I'm pro garchomp dude. You must've seen me trying to preach about garchomp being OU in shoddy. But still, both the Americans and the Japanese have a different playstyle. Why is this? If pokemon was designed to have a specific purpose, shouldn't the Japanese's movesets be similar to ours as well?

He found that he was kicked/they forfeit whenever he would use SD Heracross though.
It's their fault then. You don't see people forfeiting and pissing off because someone accidentally pulled out a garchomp thinking that it was still OU. But still, I wonder why the Japanese banned Heracross in the first place.

Anyway, I really like the Japanese playstyle. It's not like ours, which tends to settle in around raw power and brute force. They seem to prefer a more offensive (or maybe frail/creative is the better word) metagame and I think that's why what we see as gimmick sets on seldom used Pokemon are so successful. In an offensive metagame, not being able to anticipate what your opponent may do could lose you the entire match on just one turn's worth of move selection.
You brought up an interesting point. But the thing is that, gimmick sets don't always net you much more than surprise value. I've tried some gimmick sets like what the japanese did once, but didn't do me very good.

 

[the_artic_one]

It's their fault then. You don't see people forfeiting and pissing off because someone accidentally pulled out a garchomp thinking that it was still OU. But still, I wonder why the Japanese banned Heracross in the first place.

Were you around during the wobba test? Lots of people d/c'd on sight.

 

[umbreonleader]

Wow, this is interesting. I'd love to see a typical smogoneers team against a typical asian team. Our metagames are probably very different, and I'd love to check it out.

 

[SuperSimon]

Do the japanese have seperate metagames for different tiers like we do?
If so id like to see how someof theses are played.

 

[Duckster]

I don't play Pokemon anymore (1AM random lurking), but you guys will probably like this post I made on another forum ages ago:

*Disclaimer* I used google translator to change all of the text into word-for-word English. You can run it through a translator and try to interpret it yourself, if you're still skeptical.

I found some websites that you might find interesting. Most notably: a Japanese battling wiki with articles covering single and double battles, and a competitive website administered by the showdown runner up:

singles: http://www18.atwiki.jp/dppokekousatsu/
doubles: http://www25.atwiki.jp/poke-doublebattle

Pokemon Underground: http://www.pokemon-underground.com

This is probably one of the better known competitive communities in Japan. It doesn't seem to be updated regularly, but it has hosted several wi-fi tournaments over the past couple years. This website does, however, seem to be up to date with all of the competitive rules, so without further ado, I introduce to you, the competitive Japanese ruleset: (and therefore, the gist of their metagame)

All battles are open level; Pokemon may be between level 1 and level 50.

No Pokemon with the same nickname.

Before a match, players exchange their Pokemon rosters. A player then selects three Pokemon to bring into battle. Players may not switch moves or hold items after they have seen their opponents roster. (If it is a double battle, players bring 4 Pokemon.)

The following Pokemon are banned:
Dragonite
Mewtwo
Mew
Tyranitar
Lugia
Ho-oh
Celebi
Latias
Latios
Kyogre
Groudon
Rayquaza
Jirachi
Deoxys (all forms)
Dialga
Palkia
Heatran
Regigigas
Giratina
Cresselia
Phione
Manaphy
Darkrai
Shaymin
Arceus

No same Pokemon may be used (species clause), and no same hold items may be used (item clause).

You may not put more than one Pokemon to sleep, with the following, and only exception: you may put more than one Pokemon to sleep only if your opponent's encore forces you to. Freeze clause is not enforced because it cannot be controlled on Diamond or Pearl Wi-Fi.

If a player uses a move that knocks out each player's last Pokemon, then that player loses.

*Use of the PUROAKUSHONRIPUREI modification tool is banned (lol). Pokemon obtained from exploiting 'dangerous' glitches are banned. Pokemon obtained from the GTS are exempt from this rule, or so I've interpreted this gibberish.

Obviously, their metagame is a hell of a lot different from ours. Occasionally, Cresselia and Lati@s are acceptable Pokemon (typically in double battles). There is a lot of emphasis on offense in this mode of play, and an almost complete lack of stall teams.

You've probably noticed that Japanese competitive rules are almost exactly the same as those enforced by Nintendo. This should explain why American players were dominated at the showdown. You might think they're the ones with the ridiculous rules, but really, our current metagame is about the furthest thing possible from the Pokemon League. If you enjoy playing the current North American metagame, that's reason enough not to give a **** about anything else; you shouldn't involve yourself with something you don't find enjoyable. Just don't be surprised when your country gets dominated in the finals because we've neglected entirely a way of playing the game. And maybe look at this ban list the next time you post in a Garchomp thread, and ask yourself, 'are we doing the logical thing here?' Because honestly, the Japanese will probably argue us to death how Cresselia is the most broken prick of a 600 base stater that could ever exist. And yet, we somehow know it isn't.

I'll conclude with anotherlink, to a Japanese team rating board this time: http://www.pokedex.jp/bbs/pdxbbs.cgi?board=5
This should give you more insight on their metagame and playing style.

Maybe a few of us can give this ruleset a try sometime? Hopefully you enjoyed reading this post, I will write more as I gather new information.

This was before platinum came out, it could be slightly different now. I think Latias/Latios/Cresselia being banned was dependent on personal preference, sort of how Garchomp isn't banned on other servers (if that's still the case?)

PS: I helped bridge the gap between the NA&JP metagames, imo :] At least temporarily.

 

[Evisu]

So they allow Wobb? Wow

Someone really needs to find their simulator, I would love to play against them.

I've seen a couple videos on YouTube and it seems that they use Substitute on almost every Pokemon on their team.

 

[Quantum]

Where did those Chinese statistics come from? Is there some Shoddy server I don't know about, or do they have their own program?

They do have their own program, actually. It's called "Pokemon Battle Online"... Well, that's how my friend from Hong Kong translated it. I've seen a couple of screen shots and it looks similar to Netbattle.

 

[c l e a r]

Hong Kong, eh?

I used to live in HK, I would love to know their metagame more. I like how they limit powerhouses, that leaves more room to use more gimmicky and wild card Pokemon that I like.

Like Linoone, I love that thing.

 

[Misa]

They do have their own program, actually. It's called "Pokemon Battle Online"... Well, that's how my friend from Hong Kong translated it. I've seen a couple of screen shots and it looks similar to Netbattle.

Is there a link for those screenshots? Those would be greatly appreciated.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Here was the French Uber (or as they say, '00ber') tier as of a year ago.

Arceus
Celebi
Darkrai

Deoxys ( toutes les formes )​

Deoxys (all forms)
Dialga
Giratina
Groudon
Ho-oh
Kyogre

Latias​

Latios
Lugia
Manaphy
Mew
Mewtwo
Okeoke
Palkia
Qulbutoke
Rayquaza
Triopikeur

Okeoke is Wynaut, Qulbutoke is Wobbuffer, and Triopikeur is Dugtrio!!!

And their OU list

Airmure - Skarmory
Alakazam
Archéodong - Bronzong
Charmina - Medicham
Cizayox -Scizor
Crefadet -Azelf
Dimoret - Weavile
Dracolosse - Dragonite
Donphan
Drattak - Salamence

Ectoplasma​

- Gengar
Electhor - Zapdos

Elekable​

-Electivire
Foretress
Hippodocus - Hippowdon
Jirachi
Laggron - Swampert
Leuphorie - Blissey
Leviator - Gyarados
Lucario
Mackogneur - Machamp
Métalosse - Metagross
Ninjask
Porygon-Z

Ptera​

- Aerodactyl
Raikou
Rhinastoc - Rhyperior
Ronflex - Snorlax
Scarhino - Heracross
Scorvol - Gliscor
Simiabraz - Infernape
Smogogo -Weezing (we should know this one :))
Suicune
Staross -Starmie
Togekiss
Voltali -Jolteon
Yanmega

http://www.pokebip.com/pokemon/fora/tiers-list-des-metagames-anglais-et-francais-t3812.html

And above is a 38 page long thread where people discuss the way English-speaking people have their tiers, and compare the tiers (the first page is mainly about how we don't have Celebi and Dugtrio in '00ber', but they do.

This site has analysises for all the Pokemon too. Here is a link to Garchomp's analysis (who, doesn't seem to have appeared in their OU or 00ber list!)http://www.pokebip.com/pokemon/pokedex/4eme_generation_fiche466__Carchacrok.html They don't have Yachechomp, which is interesting. They have Chainchomp though. They say Garchomp is the best sweeper in OU too.

 

[Pombo]

i just cant understand the armaldo thing.... its slow and dont have THAT bulkyness. anyone got a clue?

and their metagame is hard to understand. Imo, our is simpler (lol, does thatt exist?) but i would love to understand it, and understand WHY THE HELL DONT THEY USE CBzor/SDzor/SDLuke. Dont this work on 3x3?

I understand why they dont use Stall teams (its impossible to counter everything with 3 pokemons), But why dont they use some of our effective immediate threats?

 

[eric the espeon]

Looking through their analysis I've found a few interesting sets that seem to be absent from our metagame. Their analysis are no where near as polished as ours, and don't have many of the sets we consider standard but if you take into account the fact that our and their metagames evolved separately it makes sense. I think that analysis like these and those from Japan/China could provide a massive supply of interesting new movesets, many would fail in our meta but I would expect a few to shine. Anyway some of the more interesting sets I found:

French Stall Gross
Metagross@Leftovers
204 HP/54 Atk/252 Def
Impish
Meteor Mash
Earthquake/Ice Punch/Poing-Éclair?

Protect/Light Screen
Rest/Explosion

Our closes equivalent, Support Gross, is very different (have a look: http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/metagross ). The set may seem simple, but it makes sense in a way. The /itus is annoying though..

Their Walrien analysis lacks our most common set, but does have an odd one that we lack entirely: SpecsRien.
The set they suggest is:

Walrien@Choice Specs
252 HP/6 Def/252 SpA
Modest
Surf
Ice Beam/Blizzard
HP Electric/Signal Beam/Plante?
Sleep Talk/Hydro Pump

With 95 base SpA and solid (110/90/90) defences Walrien has been overlooked as a Specs user. In our Meta it would probably function even better as many people expect a StallRien and bring in a Encore/Taunt/Roar user.

The comments on the Wobby analysis are very telling:
​

Balance:

This Pokémon offers too many opportunities for placement in a Metagami too aggressive to be considered as a simple overused. It deserves to be Oober, however this is not the case everywhere ...

So some French players/sites do, and some don't consider Wobby to much. Very interesting to know that the same debate is going on there as well.

I will be looking through some other analysis (maybe Japanese ones) seeing if I can find new sets.

 

[MagneZoneIsAPunk]

in the french metagame, Medicham is OU so is chomp, slowbro is also OU.

Not to sure about this but is Solrock NU cause he is in the french metagame.

 

[adman2]

I suppose Metagross gets Trick in Platinum, since I encountered a Japanese player on PBR with a Metagross with Choice Scarf and Trick. I couldn't get his Friend Pass, so the only other move I could find was Meteor Mash.

I don't know if this represents the majority of Umbreons, but one of the Friend Passes reveals that one set is a Relaxed Umbreon with:

Moonlight
Confuse Ray
Toxic
Protect

Keep in mind that this is random PBR with a small sample size, even though the players I've encountered clearly play in a competitive style, so please don't mistake this for perfect insight, though I hope it sheds some light!

 

[LightWolf]

This site has analysises for all the Pokemon too. Here is a link to Garchomp's analysis (who, doesn't seem to have appeared in their OU or 00ber list!)http://www.pokebip.com/pokemon/pokedex/4eme_generation_fiche466__Carchacrok.html They don't have Yachechomp, which is interesting. They have Chainchomp though. They say Garchomp is the best sweeper in OU too.

That is a bit wrong as they do have yache as an option, I do not know the french language but my diamond is french so I know that it has Yache as the second choose item.

Also it seems french sites are using suicide leads too.

 

[Kittymew]

Looking through their analysis I've found a few interesting sets that seem to be absent from our metagame. Their analysis are no where near as polished as ours, and don't have many of the sets we consider standard but if you take into account the fact that our and their metagames evolved separately it makes sense. I think that analysis like these and those from Japan/China could provide a massive supply of interesting new movesets, many would fail in our meta but I would expect a few to shine. Anyway some of the more interesting sets I found:

French Stall Gross
Metagross@Leftovers
204 HP/54 Atk/252 Def
Impish
Meteor Mash
Earthquake/Ice Punch/Poing-Éclair?

Protect/Light Screen
Rest/Explosion

Our closes equivalent, Support Gross, is very different (have a look: http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/metagross ). The set may seem simple, but it makes sense in a way. The /itus is annoying though..

Their Walrien analysis lacks our most common set, but does have an odd one that we lack entirely: SpecsRien.
The set they suggest is:

Walrien@Choice Specs
252 HP/6 Def/252 SpA
Modest
Surf
Ice Beam/Blizzard
HP Electric/Signal Beam/Plante?
Sleep Talk/Hydro Pump

With 95 base SpA and solid (110/90/90) defences Walrien has been overlooked as a Specs user. In our Meta it would probably function even better as many people expect a StallRien and bring in a Encore/Taunt/Roar user.

The comments on the Wobby analysis are very telling:
​

So some French players/sites do, and some don't consider Wobby to much. Very interesting to know that the same debate is going on there as well.

I will be looking through some other analysis (maybe Japanese ones) seeing if I can find new sets.

FYI, Poing éclair is thunderpunch, and I'm pretty sure Plante is Rest, but that one's dialectic; I'm Canadian and they're European, and I've never heard that use for the word before. Why you would put specs on a ResTalk Walrein I have no clue...

Too many slashes in both sets.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

wow celebi and jirachi are 00ber (Uber) in the french metagame, Medicham is OU so is chomp, slowbro is also OU.

Not to sure about this but is Solrock NU cause he is in the french metagame.

Actually, Garchomp isn't even OU in France. I wonder why...

i honestly love diversity in the matagame. seeing pokemon that are idolized as amazing or a must have in a team being destroyed by UU or pokemon people thought they arnt as good. is just amazing IMO

Oh please, cut this snowflake talk out. No one says you "must have" top-tier OUs in your team, but that you "must have" a way to not be killed by them while you try to set up your own strategy. If people kill my Gyarados using Linoone, fine, but I won't start seeing Gyarados as shit and Linoone as a god. There's a reason Gyarados is used more than Linoone.