Metagame Fortemons

[StatueMuenze107]

Somebody tried Fell stinger? While i was testing it, it didnt work....
Togedemaru @ Fell Stinger
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Zing Zap
- Endeavor

 

[Mathy]

Bug report: Triple Kick is allowed by the validator, but does nothing as a forte. And by "does nothing", I don't mean it has no effect; I mean that it makes all of your attacks do absolutely nothing to the opponent.

Example:-

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7fortemons-830289115

Triple Kick is trying to calculate 10 times the number of hits of a multi-hit move, which is always 0 for non-multihit moves. More of an oversight than a glitch IMO.

This patch by Kris is meant to resolve this; it will ban all multihit moves outright.

 

[Mathy]

Thoughts on adding Item Clause to the meta? This would ban having the same forte more than once on a team, as well

 

[CringeMeta]

Triple Kick is trying to calculate 10 times the number of hits of a multi-hit move, which is always 0 for non-multihit moves. More of an oversight than a glitch IMO.

This patch by Kris is meant to resolve this; it will ban all multihit moves outright.

Thank-you...

B-b-but my beautiful cockroach waifu...!!

This is an incredibly niche case, but if Triple Kick is just added to the banlist, this behaviour will still be expressed on main in mashups like Fortemons Pure Hackmons where Triple Kick is unbanned. However, if you would have to rewrite the general damage formula for TK to avoid this (especially if this is how it's calculated in-game), it's very understandable.

 

[ESN 64]

Thank-you...

B-b-but my beautiful cockroach waifu...!!

This is an incredibly niche case, but if Triple Kick is just added to the banlist, this behaviour will still be expressed on main in mashups like Fortemons Pure Hackmons where Triple Kick is unbanned. However, if you would have to rewrite the general damage formula for TK to avoid this (especially if this is how it's calculated in-game), it's very understandable.

Fortehackmons scares me

 

[Sekkaru]

How would trick work? Would you "swap items" or would it not work?

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

How would trick work? Would you "swap items" or would it not work?

Its a status move so you couldn't put it in the item slot.

After spending a couple of hours laddering today, I'm having flashbacks of Shared Power. There's already a huge banlist, and really I can only see it getting longer. Kartana is insane in this meta - give it Vacuum Wave and everything gets +1 priority. Give it Return and it's old problem of weak STABs are a thing of the past. That's just one example. I hope I'm wrong, as this is an interesting concept.

 

[Darth]

So after testing every kind of team today, I come to the conclusion that as long as priority is allowed you cannot not use lele (unless you go into the prio game, of coruse, for that lovely 50% winchance.)
And when you do play lele, return mons sweep you because that's what they do.

Unless you play either of those teams, you basically lose. Fun.

 

[alephgalactus]

Yeah, the meta seems to be pretty much entirely centered around priority and Return. Ban priority, ban Return, and the meta instantly becomes a lot more stable. Which brings up another point—why is Return like that at all? Reading the OP, it seems like moves without a specific base power aren't supposed to carry over that effect, so why does Return do that?

 

[Darth]

Yeah, the meta seems to be pretty much entirely centered around priority and Return. Ban priority, ban Return, and the meta instantly becomes a lot more stable. Which brings up another point—why is Return like that at all? Reading the OP, it seems like moves without a specific base power aren't supposed to carry over that effect, so why does Return do that?

Because Return's primary effect is what changes its BP, and for some reason that wasn't flagged off like all the others.

 

[TheSealGoesMeow]

My Attack Item keeps becoming Ultra necronium z How Do I fix that

 

[Mathy]

My Attack Item keeps becoming Ultra necronium z How Do I fix that

That's intended, if it becomes that item it means it's working

 

[shoxwon]

Somebody tried Fell stinger? While i was testing it, it didnt work....
Togedemaru @ Fell Stinger
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Zing Zap
- Endeavor

I'm having the same issue. I'm assuming it is just miscoded??

 

[Crimson Ecstasy]

Does sucker punch works?

 

[Ekarrissor]

I just wanted to say that triple kick is actually overpowered. Give the return item and watch an Hitmontop doing a 3 X 102 BP. But this is rather not broken because it still an hitmontop : frail and really slow.

Also i dont think that Lele is broken. It is just the only mon that is reliable to get down a meta centralized around priority moves. If u ban priority as items im pretty sure that lele will be seriously lesser played.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

But this is rather not broken because it still an hitmontop : frail and really slow.

50/95/110 is decently bulky, especially with Intimidate, and 70 speed isn't too bad either.

 

[Mathy]

Somebody tried Fell stinger? While i was testing it, it didnt work....

Fell Stinger should be fixed when the server is next patched

 

[Shoopz_Whisper]

Its a status move so you couldn't put it in the item slot.

After spending a couple of hours laddering today, I'm having flashbacks of Shared Power. There's already a huge banlist, and really I can only see it getting longer. Kartana is insane in this meta - give it Vacuum Wave and everything gets +1 priority. Give it Return and it's old problem of weak STABs are a thing of the past. That's just one example. I hope I'm wrong, as this is an interesting concept.

...the problem i see is its rock paper scissors in terms of "What is overpowered" stall, multihit, ph triage, physical attacking HO are the dominant strats and all find one other OP and theres nothing we can do to balance this tier without tipping one ahead of the other...

Hmmmmm...

 

[Pipotchi]

I don't know why return is acting as it does, since the moves are supposed to retain their regular base power. We tested gyro ball in the item slot and it also affects the variance of base power.

Just gunna say that I don't get the shared power comparison lol. There won't be a rapidly escalating banlist here, it just needs some bugs fixing. I'm passing the thread on to Snaquaza because I don't have time to handle it but I do have some opinions on priority etc-

The meta is centralized around priority for sure. I don't mind whether it gets banned or not, but I think this meta shouldn't pretend to aim for an OU level of stability when its a lot closer to BH. The way I see it priority is unable to be spammed like 3+ fortes in a team, isn't a particular mon that needs banning, and both has a reason to stay in the tier (blanket revenge killing all the other broken things like flame charge and other boosting ) and heavy counterplay. Imposter Chansey is a similar thing to tapu lele here, very centralizing but also holds together the tier.

IMO, logically it is fine to stay- and when the return fix kills the ability to have a single broken prio move on a set, prio mons will be even more risky to use as the only option is a full priority set. But I'm not gunna enforce anything cus I don't know the meta in depth and am passing it over anyways.

 

[In(insert)]

Pls ban return and prio. We'll have a much more fun metagame.

 

[cscl]

I already have reached the highest gxe on the ladder and would like to say something about the tier which I found it is “unhealthy”.
First,some of the “broken things” totally limited the teambuild.Spamming u-turn hit-and-run can easily destroy the defence line until u have to give up at least one pokemon.
This makes it difficult to build a stall,or even “bulky stall” team.Returns and prioritys are even worse because u-turners broke their counters. So the “u-turner+priority againster+priority/return swapper” become a unbeatable combo to other teams.So most of teams on ladder is using this combo and the other items seem useless.That is why I think it is unhealthy.
So my opinion to solve the problem is: add items cause to the tier.U-turn and volt switch in one team maybe ok but return and frustration are not.End the endless ut spam and free other items choice.I think it will solve the problem.
As you see my English is bad but just want to join the discussionXD.
Pipotchi

 

[Deleted User 91486]

There's a bug: I gave Tapu Bulu Giga Drain as the item, its moves are now draining moves, but still make contact and trigger Iron Barbs.

 

[pastafari]

I don't know if this was answered because I didn't look through every post in this thread, but someone posted a specific set a while back that I had a question about. If you put Freeze Dry in the item slot for a Mamo and then try to EQ a Rotom-Wash, what would take priority: the immunity to the original move, or the weakness to the new version of it?

I don't know if this was answered, and also don't know if that effect from Freeze Dry is inherited to each move, but it doesn't matter which effect "takes priority", as the multiplier due to levitate is still 0.

 

[Ehmcee]

Did they just ban double-hit moves?
I had a double kick return Terrakion and it's pretty useless now :(


Also, how does Technician work with Return as an Item?
Will it boost the power of the move before and then bring it to 102 power, or will it bring it to 102 power and then boost it by 1.5?

 

[Rose_Warrior]

I have played this meta quite a bit and I have found you will almost always find one of two things per match ether lele or priority if you don't have your own priority you lose unless you have lele effectively centerilizing the meta around lele as its the best way to take care of priority rather then having multiple priority users. the most obvius answer to this is to put a item clause specific to priority but this could be considered a complex ban unless specifying priority moves can only have 1 user per team the next possible step if this is still a problem could be ban priority moves from being used as an item this would greatly shift the meta how ever possibly resulting in the fall of lele to quite a degree.

If this ban happened I could see a lot more pokemon becoming viable how ever volt turn would have to be checked into especially as it would be the next likely one to become broken but according to smogons rules we are not to use the "B is broken if we remove A" argument which would be another reason to ban or limit the use of priority.

(im sorry if my message was hard to understand)