Metagame Fortemons

so does the moves ignored user's accuracy like swift and shock wave work?does freeze-dry have supereffective on all the moves to the target?
 
The fact that mons like Scolipede can get access to twice hitting 102 bp twinneedle is the reason this meta is broken to no end.
Whose idea was it to allow that?

Allowing Return/frustration is one thing, allowing scolipede (in p-terrain before someone says it) to hit twice for effectively 204 bp with no drawback at all is another.
 
Seriously, priority is really unhealthy. Without lele, there’s nothing saving you from a Lucario with +2 Priority CC or Meteor Mash or Medicham with HJK or Zen Headbutt. Or Zygarde with +2 Priority Thousand Arrows. You basically need Lele, Bruxish or Tsareena (the latter 2 are subpar) in your team or you got swept. That’s very centralizing. People carry them because they’re forced to.
 

Mathy

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so does the moves ignored user's accuracy like swift and shock wave work?does freeze-dry have supereffective on all the moves to the target?
At the moment, neither of these things are inherited, no.

I think what AquaticPanic meant was using Assurance as the forte with Double Hit / Double Kick / Dual Chop as the move. Would Assurance double the power of the second hit?
Assurance, yes, it would double on subsequent hits.
 
Seriously, priority is really unhealthy. Without lele, there’s nothing saving you from a Lucario with +2 Priority CC or Meteor Mash or Medicham with HJK or Zen Headbutt. Or Zygarde with +2 Priority Thousand Arrows. You basically need Lele, Bruxish or Tsareena (the latter 2 are subpar) in your team or you got swept. That’s very centralizing. People carry them because they’re forced to.
I disagree. Priority is what makes scolipede, blacephalon, Weavile (return), and zeraora relatively less broken. Scolipede is still busted as all hell but the other three are only kept in check because of prio - which even then is lackluster due to pterrain.
 

AquaticPanic

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I disagree. Priority is what makes scolipede, blacephalon, Weavile (return), and zeraora relatively less broken. Scolipede is still busted as all hell but the other three are only kept in check because of prio - which even then is lackluster due to pterrain.
I really don't think we should go down to the "Let broken beat broken" route. Priority is stupid. It forces you to either run Lele, which isn't efficient when the terrain only lasts for 5 turns and can be blocked by other terrains, or two really mediocre Pokemon that would never have been used otherwise. There's a reason why priority moves in vanilla have low base power.

Imo Priority moves shouldn't be allowed as Fortes. They're overcentralizing and you only have 3 Pokemon that can somewhat beat priority, either that or run priority yourself (Which just makes it more centralizing). Making strong moves always go first is a really bad idea (Just remember how broken priority was in Return'd, but now apply that to every move you want instead of just the first slot). And unless you have 3 very specific pokemon, there's nothing you can do about it. You may have moves that beat, say, Zygarde, but that doesn't matter when it can set up with Coil and still have 3 other moves that will hit before you can move yourself, meaning you have to use something that can take a hit from priority users and still be able to knock them down, which isn't a common thing to find in any mon. If Weavile, Blacephalon and co. are broken, they should be looked into too, but don't ignore a clear problem just because it somewhat helps against other problems

tldr ban priority from being a forte
 
I really don't think we should go down to the "Let broken beat broken" route. Priority is stupid. It forces you to either run Lele, which isn't efficient when the terrain only lasts for 5 turns and can be blocked by other terrains, or two really mediocre Pokemon that would never have been used otherwise. There's a reason why priority moves in vanilla have low base power.

Imo Priority moves shouldn't be allowed as Fortes. They're overcentralizing and you only have 3 Pokemon that can somewhat beat priority, either that or run priority yourself (Which just makes it more centralizing). Making strong moves always go first is a really bad idea (Just remember how broken priority was in Return'd, but now apply that to every move you want instead of just the first slot). And unless you have 3 very specific pokemon, there's nothing you can do about it. You may have moves that beat, say, Zygarde, but that doesn't matter when it can set up with Coil and still have 3 other moves that will hit before you can move yourself, meaning you have to use something that can take a hit from priority users and still be able to knock them down, which isn't a common thing to find in any mon. If Weavile, Blacephalon and co. are broken, they should be looked into too, but don't ignore a clear problem just because it somewhat helps against other problems

tldr ban priority from being a forte
Your opening logic conflicts with the rest of your post: If they're both broken you ban both. They're both broken, so ban both.
But banning priority on its own would leave us with a meta where Return mons just try to get the initiative and then sweep the others.
Weavile and Scolipede on their own outspeed literally everything (people are even running agility weav) and both have access to amazing moves in ice shard/pursuit and Twinneedle/bulldoze; what do you have except a RPS game between weaviile scoli and hitmon?

Ban neither or ban both.
 

AquaticPanic

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Your opening logic conflicts with the rest of your post: If they're both broken you ban both. They're both broken, so ban both.
But banning priority on its own would leave us with a meta where Return mons just try to get the initiative and then sweep the others.
Weavile and Scolipede on their own outspeed literally everything (people are even running agility weav) and both have access to amazing moves in ice shard/pursuit and Twinneedle/bulldoze; what do you have except a RPS game between weaviile scoli and hitmon?

Ban neither or ban both.
I do agree that return is broken, sorry if I didn't make it cler but I do think we should ban both
 
What I think would be most interesting would be to have a test or tour or w/e where we cannot use Feint and Espeed and then see how the meta goes like that. I think Feint and Espeed are the core issue with priority, so banning them for a test should show whether other priority is really that big of an issue too rather than just outright ban all of it.
 

drampa's grandpa

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Priority is so incredibly centralizing I honestly don't see how it could be considered healthy. Basically every competitive team is running anti-priority, and since that is literally 3 pokemon, one of which is way better overall, it limits the types of builds you realistically see to an extreme degree.

Seriously, ban the other broken stuff that will rise once priority fortes leave rather than try to justify this metagame.

Return probably needs a ban too.

Also I believe Pipotchi was looking for someone to take over the metagame for them due to activity.
 
How does Pursuit work? Will it allow normal moves like scald affect switching targets?

Also, I have these

Incineroar @ Torment
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Will-O-Wisp
- Drain Punch

I thought using torment in the item slot would keep opponents from spamming a super effective or recovery move, giving Incineroar more longevity and sweeping potential.


Cacturne @ Fell Stinger
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Seed Bomb
- Spiky Shield
- Poison Jab/Superpower

+3 Atk for getting a KO. I paired this with Sucker Punch, so Cacturne can nab a boost off a weakened opponent, and have priority after the boost. Poison Jab is there for Tapu Lele and Tsareena.

Infernape @ Flame Charge
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab

+1 Spe off of any move, notably Swords Dance. As a bonus, the boost isnt blocked by Queenly Majesty or Psychic Terrain.
 
Just a few quick thoughts I had at the outset.

Terrakion @ Secret Sword
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance

This could still need work, but Secret Sword allows Terrakion (and others that learn it) to entirely ignore all opponent stat changes. Thus, defensive set up is not likely to be a thing in this metagame, unless Secret Sword is banned as an Item.

Also, if PuP is banned, then Charge Beam should likely go too as it would give 70% chance to boost SpA with every move. Note: Fiery Dance might be worth looking into too as that's a 50% chance. Perhaps the build would look something like this:

Alakazam @ Charge Beam
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Encore

Still, an interesting premise for a metagame. Initially it seems very offensively oriented, especially since a lot of mons can get priority from Extreme Speed (Priority might seriously need to be looked into, or just removed), or even Feint, which imo is worse as it nullifies Protect and friends too, along with a solid +2.

Now for Questions:
1. Would Echoed Voice cause every move to multiply each turn it was used as that is part of the effect? Earthquake 5 turns in a row would be 500 BP... Might need to ban this too (imagine it with a metronome, adding another x2 multiplier).
2. Does the move in the item slot count as an item? Would that proc things like Acrobatics, doubling BP if no item is held?
3. Would things like Heavy Slam also affect BP? Would Celesteela just have 120 Base Power moves all around because its so thicc?
4. Also, we are banning OHKO moves in the item slot, right? Scarf Dugtrio with Fissure would be killing everything in one hit.
it's sacred sword
 
How does Pursuit work? Will it allow normal moves like scald affect switching targets?

Also, I have these

Incineroar @ Torment
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Will-O-Wisp
- Drain Punch

I thought using torment in the item slot would keep opponents from spamming a super effective or recovery move, giving Incineroar more longevity and sweeping potential.


Cacturne @ Fell Stinger
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Seed Bomb
- Spiky Shield
- Poison Jab/Superpower

+3 Atk for getting a KO. I paired this with Sucker Punch, so Cacturne can nab a boost off a weakened opponent, and have priority after the boost. Poison Jab is there for Tapu Lele and Tsareena.

Infernape @ Flame Charge
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab

+1 Spe off of any move, notably Swords Dance. As a bonus, the boost isnt blocked by Queenly Majesty or Psychic Terrain.
Flame charge is banned and the move has to be an attack, status moves do not do anything, actually, we should repost an updated banlist on this forum
 
Flame charge is banned and the move has to be an attack, status moves do not do anything, actually, we should repost an updated banlist on this forum
Except Flame Charge isn’t banned. No one banned it yet.

Also I don’t think Power-up Punch and Inferno deserved a quickban before even being tested. I was using Charge Beam until now and I got SpA boost 90% of the time, yet I failed to sweep from time to time. I know it doesn’t really compare but it doesn’t look that broken.

As for Inferno, none of the learners are relevant mon except maybe Victini and the fastest mon that learn it is Rapidash at 105 Speed.
 
Here's a fun little set I like using:

Tentacruel @ acidspray
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Infestation

Not exactly 100% original, I know, but this squid boi is really not used as much as I think he should. Max SpDef allows it to counter any special attackers not running psychic, and can even counter scarf lele if you predict right. Liquid Ooze is a nice touch against mons with draining fortes, and infestation allows you to trap any unsuspecting victims and run them dry with a potential combo of poison/burn damage + infestation damage. All hail the squid king!
 
A couple things to note: Itemized Facade doesn't double power of every move when statused. Itemized Thunder doesn't make every move hit in the rain. Itemized Echoed Voice does not work like the item Metronome. Psyshock DOES make all special moves hit on the physical side. Itemized Assurance does not work even though Itemized Payback does.
 
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Ivy

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How does Pursuit work? Will it allow normal moves like scald affect switching targets?
Pursuit should hypothetically increase the priority of moves under the switch circumstance as is done with other priority moves, yeah. The power doubling wouldn't take effect, though, since it doesn't wholly overwrite the base power.
also pursuit is banned in the move slot anyways lol
 
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set that caught all of my opponents off guard, really strong as a cleaner

Golisopod @ frostbreath
Ability: Emergency Exit
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Leech Life
- Sucker Punch
- First Impression
- Aqua Jet
 
Bug report: Triple Kick is allowed by the validator, but does nothing as a forte. And by "does nothing", I don't mean it has no effect; I mean that it makes all of your attacks do absolutely nothing to the opponent.

Example:-

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7fortemons-830289115

Free this beautiful meme in Fortemons Pure Hackmons:-

Pheromosa @ Triple Kick
Ability: Parental Bond
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Night Shade
- Sunsteel Strike
- Extreme Speed
 
Return/Frustration is pretty busted as a item choice, boosting lower power moves to base 102. This can be extremely powerful with priority or boosting moves such as Power-Up Punch but also increasing the power of coverage moves such the elemental punches and Hidden Power etc.


Conkeldurr @ Return
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Power-Up Punch
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch/Drain Punch
- Mach Punch

Conkeldurr's Power-Up Punch and Mach Punch become a whooping base 122 STAB option (if Iron Fist works the way I think it does, which I'm pretty sure it is considering I did like 46+% with Power-Up Punch on Tornadus-Therian), as well as it's coverage boosting to levels as well. Thunder Punch is more welcomed choice over Drain Punch as it helps against bulky Water-types such as Slowbro and Toxapex especially, but Drain Punch can increase longevity. The beauty of this set is unlike the Mach Punch set, it isn't completely walled by Tsareena or Bruxish which can catch them by surprise with it's sheer power.


Salamence @ Return
Ability: Intimidate/Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw/Fire Fang/Roost
- Aerial Ace
- Earthquake

Return essentially turns Salamence in lite Mega Salamence, I'm sure you could pull some sort of bulky set with this but for now it's just straight investment into sheer power. Aerial Ace becomes an amazing 102 Flying STAB for Salamence, whilst Dragon Claw although not as powerful as Outrage, doesn't lock you in. Dragon Claw can also be interchangeable for Roost as recovery or Fire Fang to hit Pokemon such as Celesteela, Ferrothorn or Skarmory whilst Earthquake is generally a better choice for it's last move to hit Heatran, Magearna and Toxapex the hardest.


Ambipom @ Return
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double Hit
- U-turn
- Fire Punch/Knock Off
- Power-Up Punch

This one is more so of a fun one but I find Ambipom can hit things pretty dang hard, especially with Double Hit. Double Hit becomes a 2-Hit 102 Base power STAB option, doing huge damage to Pokemon who do not resist or are immune. 102 Base power U-turn is great on a Pokemon with base 115 speed, whilst Power-Up Punch gives an option against Steel/Rock-types whilst boosting Ambipom's attack. Fire Punch allows you to hit Celesteela, Magearna and Skarmory super effectively whilst Knock Off despite not being too useful in this metagame, gives Ambipom a 102 Dark-Type move for Ghost-types such as Gengar or Blacephalon, especially the latter. Knock Off is used over Shadow Claw due to some Pokemon still preferring to use items in this metagame, such as Toxapex with Black Sludge.
 

AquaticPanic

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Return/Frustration is pretty busted as a item choice, boosting lower power moves to base 102. This can be extremely powerful with priority or boosting moves such as Power-Up Punch but also increasing the power of coverage moves such the elemental punches and Hidden Power etc.


Conkeldurr @ Return
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Power-Up Punch
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch/Drain Punch
- Mach Punch

Conkeldurr's Power-Up Punch and Mach Punch become a whooping base 122 STAB option (if Iron Fist works the way I think it does, which I'm pretty sure it is considering I did like 46+% with Power-Up Punch on Tornadus-Therian), as well as it's coverage boosting to levels as well. Thunder Punch is more welcomed choice over Drain Punch as it helps against bulky Water-types such as Slowbro and Toxapex especially, but Drain Punch can increase longevity. The beauty of this set is unlike the Mach Punch set, it isn't completely walled by Tsareena or Bruxish which can catch them by surprise with it's sheer power.


Salamence @ Return
Ability: Intimidate/Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw/Fire Fang/Roost
- Aerial Ace
- Earthquake

Return essentially turns Salamence in lite Mega Salamence, I'm sure you could pull some sort of bulky set with this but for now it's just straight investment into sheer power. Aerial Ace becomes an amazing 102 Flying STAB for Salamence, whilst Dragon Claw although not as powerful as Outrage, doesn't lock you in. Dragon Claw can also be interchangeable for Roost as recovery or Fire Fang to hit Pokemon such as Celesteela, Ferrothorn or Skarmory whilst Earthquake is generally a better choice for it's last move to hit Heatran, Magearna and Toxapex the hardest.


Ambipom @ Return
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double Hit
- U-turn
- Fire Punch/Knock Off
- Power-Up Punch

This one is more so of a fun one but I find Ambipom can hit things pretty dang hard, especially with Double Hit. Double Hit becomes a 2-Hit 102 Base power STAB option, doing huge damage to Pokemon who do not resist or are immune. 102 Base power U-turn is great on a Pokemon with base 115 speed, whilst Power-Up Punch gives an option against Steel/Rock-types whilst boosting Ambipom's attack. Fire Punch allows you to hit Celesteela, Magearna and Skarmory super effectively whilst Knock Off despite not being too useful in this metagame, gives Ambipom a 102 Dark-Type move for Ghost-types such as Gengar or Blacephalon, especially the latter. Knock Off is used over Shadow Claw due to some Pokemon still preferring to use items in this metagame, such as Toxapex with Black Sludge.
Gotta question Technician on the last set. Why bother when every move is over 60 BP?
 
All of Ambipom's abilitys are pointless when running Return, Skill Link doesn't effect Double Hit and you cannot use 2-5 hit moves. Pickup doesn't do anything, so really the ability is just null.
 

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