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FWIW, the most common Xurkitree set, z-hypnosis will just set up on Regice and win the game straight from there most of the time. Charizard Y will pretty much win at full health every time vs. Regice as ancient power does not KO due to Zard Y's suprisingly good special bulk. Not that I think Regice is bad by any means, but it has its flaws that keep it out of mainstream play.

Yes, Hippowdon in general is probably a windup for that team, though there is certainly things that Hippo does not appreciate such as Kartana, z-draco from naga and mega gyara.
I'd have to check what it runs, cause maybe.But Flamethrower is a 3HKO. Fire Blast is 2HKO but accuracy. If it uses Overheat, say on switch or w/e, chances to 2HKO go down. If Flamethrower then Overheat Regice dies:( Bit worse than I remembered at max SpD but I'm very biased. Ancientpower from 4/0 Regice vs non-bulky Zary Y(why would it be bulky?,) is a guaranteed 2HKO.

Tl;dr they don't like each other they both hurt the other bad but no OHKOs anywhere.

EDIT: Dang it checked Pyukumuku's pokedex entry cause was thinking BP to Ingrain Celesteela....but it learns no attacks xp. Idk why they did that, probably too ridiculous for even me to use now, or is Taunt not that common anymore? Some interesting moves and Unaware is good, but it's stats aren't that good, Registeel is better everywhere for example. It shouldn't be gimped this badly on moves.
 
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Ika Ika Musume

formerly Devilican
What is the pointof Tapu


I'd have to check what it runs, cause maybe.But Flamethrower is a 3HKO. Fire Blast is 2HKO but accuracy. If it uses Overheat, say on switch or w/e, chances to 2HKO go down. If Flamethrower then Overheat Regice dies:( Bit worse than I remembered at max SpD but I'm very biased. Ancientpower from 4/0 Regice vs non-bulky Zary Y(why would it be bulky?,) is a guaranteed 2HKO.

Tl;dr they don't like each other they both hurt the other bad but no OHKOs anywhere.

EDIT: Dang it checked Pyukumuku's pokedex entry cause was thinking BP to Ingrain Celesteela....but it learns no attacks xp. Idk why they did that, probably too ridiculous for even me to use now, or is Taunt not that common anymore? Some interesting moves and Unaware is good, but it's stats aren't that good, Registeel is better everywhere for example. It shouldn't be gimped this badly on moves.
You've probably done max spdef or not put sun on.

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Regice in Sun: 102-120 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Regice definitely isn't switching into a non-solar beam from zard.

Pyukumuku is a cool mon but sees very limited usage. Innards out and Unaware are both great abilities, but yes, the lack of attacking moves and the hard counters that are taunt and substitute really limit it in BSS. I hear it can do better on certain stalls in 6v6 OU.
 
You've probably done max spdef or not put sun on.

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Regice in Sun: 102-120 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Regice definitely isn't switching into a non-solar beam from zard.

Pyukumuku is a cool mon but sees very limited usage. Innards out and Unaware are both great abilities, but yes, the lack of attacking moves and the hard counters that are taunt and substitute really limit it in BSS. I hear it can do better on certain stalls in 6v6 OU.
Yeah, max SpD. That's Regice's thing, most special bulk. SpA is ok but you mostly need the SE hit(plenty of things are weak to ice at least,) or a fairly harmless mon. Thundurus-T fits that bill perfectly w/o Focus Miss, not too bad even if it has it and both hit before ice beam kills.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Regice: 107-127 (29.3 - 34.8%) -- 13.3% chance to 3HKO
 

Jhon

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Yeah, max SpD. That's Regice's thing, most special bulk. SpA is ok but you mostly need the SE hit(plenty of things are weak to ice at least,) or a fairly harmless mon. Thundurus-T fits that bill perfectly w/o Focus Miss, not too bad even if it has it and both hit before ice beam kills.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Regice: 107-127 (29.3 - 34.8%) -- 13.3% chance to 3HKO
Max Spdef sounds really inefficient for trading damage with attacks, which is something an AV set is looking to do since it can't use something like Toxic and has no recovery. Being able to take hits really well is only good if you can advance the game state positively while doing it.
If AV Regice is ever going to be good, and to be honest I don't think it can be, it's likely going to need SpA investment.
 
Max Spdef sounds really inefficient for trading damage with attacks, which is something an AV set is looking to do since it can't use something like Toxic and has no recovery. Being able to take hits really well is only good if you can advance the game state positively while doing it.
If AV Regice is ever going to be good, and to be honest I don't think it can be, it's likely going to need SpA investment.

Me neither mostly. I like Regice and I've had some fun, like OHKOing a very predictable Lucario switch-in w/ Focus Blast. Mence and Landog, among others, even Kartana w/o Stealth Rock first, are more of a trade. No one really comes out much ahead. They get OHKOd but take a huge bite from Regice which should then be easy for them to revenge. You have a good point, few quick calcs make me like 252 HP/ 12 Def/108 SpA/ 132 SpD a bit better. Not too much help though, really. The Regis just don't have enough attack or mixed bulk, except steel which annoyingly has 75 on each attacking stat instead of a more reasonable 100 on one.

Still AV Regice isn't my craziest idea. That was in my first post here a while ago, about when I was playing through the Battle Maison in ORAS(doing good as I recall,) w/ a CalmMind Baton Pass Sylveon, a mixed Mega Aggron(yeah 90 stat difference in attack but Fire Blast often helped,) and an Alomomola, I guess for a second Wish passer, idk.

Speaking of which has Mega Aggron totally fallen out of favor? I like it.

It's just really difficult to 1v1 a Mimikyu using an offensive Pokemon.
I think I understand this, naturally I'll have to get the game, beat it then actually start to play to get the whole of it. Anyways, I looked at the usage stats and Trcick Scarf is on only .3% of Mimikyu. I suppose that's largely for the z-moves it can use, but is it unviable? I'd imagine a lot of moves that an opponent might use on it like status wouldn't be fun to be locked into, and many of the steels that bother it do not like Scarf at all. Ferro is the extreme example but Celesteela and Aegislash would be almost as ruined. Mence is the most common mega and it may even be safe to Trick expecting a switch, idk if those stay in on Mimikyu.

ALSO:

Please forgive all my theorizing, guess I'm eager to get back to it due to my random absence.I had three ideas, I think 1 I will try but I want opinions on the others before I think them through further. The one I wanna try most is going back to my Impish Baton Pass Drifblim. It was surprisingly bulky even on the lower defense w/ some investment too, often managed to actually BP Minimize(s.) Thinking of passing to a Stakataka, those seem interesting, Rock/steels usually see even less use than Stak because of those 4x weaknesses. Earlier was thinking Magnet Rise to mess up Mence/other EQer switch-ins, but evading is good too.

My next idea was Zoroark. No Ice Beam sucks but HP Ice is ok....anyway it seems like Mimikyu would be a good illusion. Still those defenses are horrid and these days it's essentially slow, w/ a large influx of faster mons, which ofc can OHKO in many cases cause 60/60/60 defenses.

Most peculiar was my idea to use Ninjask. I got the idea from Pheromosa, which, while not that common, has a crazy Speed higher than most everything and I was just idly thinking what's faster, as in not priority. Not too much to choose from there. Toxic/ U-Turn/ Sub/ BP. Toxic messes up the S rank somewhat, and the speed lets me use it before other subs because I'm mostly leaning away from Infiltrator(maybe Crobat for that.) Sub and the speed boost are for passing, didn't want Protect and Lefties, I think some item to boost damage, definitely want U-Turn to be able to break subs in some cases. Aerial Ace is the only reasonable flying STAB. 4x weak mons die easily, though there is really only Pheromosa of those w/ fairly decent usage. Max Atk Expert Belt Ninjask has an ok chance to OHKO mega Blaziken after rocks, 2HKO mega Venu if it's not very defensive. I guess not much else, no wonder Talonflame flunked out of the VR thread flying is bad now. Could use Final Gambt and more HP even. Anyway is probably too silly just what I was thinking of, if only Mimikyu wasn't 4x resistant to bug and U-Turn broke it's Sub, Breaking the Disguise is nice but Volt Switch users can do either.


update:

252 Atk Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 96-114 (63.5 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Well at least Nagandel can OHKO, I'm having trouble w/ this thing. Was planning to add a Pheromosa in that team cant say made for/because of me. That won't really help but not too much worse, those can really mess w/ a lot of that team.
 
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Well bump. I go away for a while, come back and it's like a dead zone:/

Disregard the above ALSO, even to me that's all crap. I am using my Drifblim again though, kinda fun if horribly cruel when it works. Not abandoning Regice just think if I'm gonna use them it's on different teams, Regice isn't a great Baton Pass receiver.

Anyways my newest brainstorm was about a mega that most have probably forgotten, Garchomp. It didn't see success in ORAS because of conflicts w/ TTar/Hippo, and less Spe. But Gigalith has better synergy, as in no shared weakness to a single type, though there are mons that beat both ofc. Chomp can use Rock Tomb, which is very strong and fixes the Spe. Tapu Koko won't OHKO after just rocks damage, and even ones w/ Relect stand a very good chance of being OHKOd. 252+ Chomp is even able to 2HKO Hippo a little over half the time! Certainly if they lead, or even bring Hippo it is an advantage for the Chomp user.

Some more good uses and it's hard to switch in...but the top 2 mons mostly do beat it. Mimikyu can be killed w/ Rock Tomb followed be EQ, but if it uses the Z-move not Play Rough then ofc that's gg. Gren just always will win, idk why only 77# have Ice Beam but prolly any smart person runs it. Ofc can't switch-in, but not much that'd switch-in on it either. That said reg Chomp is used a lot and has much the same trouble, outspeeding the Mimikyu won't help it that much, really only for a Rock Tomb to slow and break Disguise. Also an ok ability pre-mega, I'm thinking Sand Veil in case you need a miss(Ice Beam user or w/e,) but can OHKO as long as they miss.

Tl;dr, M-Chomp y/n why? Not really pushing for it but like variety, not as fun when Mimikyu, or anything, is on almost half of teams(41% lol.)
 

Ika Ika Musume

formerly Devilican
Well bump. I go away for a while, come back and it's like a dead zone:/

Disregard the above ALSO, even to me that's all crap. I am using my Drifblim again though, kinda fun if horribly cruel when it works. Not abandoning Regice just think if I'm gonna use them it's on different teams, Regice isn't a great Baton Pass receiver.

Anyways my newest brainstorm was about a mega that most have probably forgotten, Garchomp. It didn't see success in ORAS because of conflicts w/ TTar/Hippo, and less Spe. But Gigalith has better synergy, as in no shared weakness to a single type, though there are mons that beat both ofc. Chomp can use Rock Tomb, which is very strong and fixes the Spe. Tapu Koko won't OHKO after just rocks damage, and even ones w/ Relect stand a very good chance of being OHKOd. 252+ Chomp is even able to 2HKO Hippo a little over half the time! Certainly if they lead, or even bring Hippo it is an advantage for the Chomp user.

Some more good uses and it's hard to switch in...but the top 2 mons mostly do beat it. Mimikyu can be killed w/ Rock Tomb followed be EQ, but if it uses the Z-move not Play Rough then ofc that's gg. Gren just always will win, idk why only 77# have Ice Beam but prolly any smart person runs it. Ofc can't switch-in, but not much that'd switch-in on it either. That said reg Chomp is used a lot and has much the same trouble, outspeeding the Mimikyu won't help it that much, really only for a Rock Tomb to slow and break Disguise. Also an ok ability pre-mega, I'm thinking Sand Veil in case you need a miss(Ice Beam user or w/e,) but can OHKO as long as they miss.

Tl;dr, M-Chomp y/n why? Not really pushing for it but like variety, not as fun when Mimikyu, or anything, is on almost half of teams(41% lol.)
Well mega-chomp has the same problems as regular really.

I think the speed issue is big though, the difference between 158 and 169 speed is big. Chomp for example outspeeds jolly Mimikyu, as well as timid Lele, Zard and Volcarona which are big ones. If your aim is to take a big hit and KO, then probably sash chomp is better.
 
Well mega-chomp has the same problems as regular really.

I think the speed issue is big though, the difference between 158 and 169 speed is big. Chomp for example outspeeds jolly Mimikyu, as well as timid Lele, Zard and Volcarona which are big ones. If your aim is to take a big hit and KO, then probably sash chomp is better.
That's true. I was just throwing something out there, I imagine I'll try it w/ a few different teammates later. The Speed is definitely irritating, I'd be much more ok w/ 10 less Def. Heracross has the same phenomenon, and you still hardly ever see it non-mega, but it's different. I'm positive trying this I'd also have Cresselia. Thunder Wave took some hits this gen but still really helpful. Maybe even Sticky Web support. But mostly this is just good against Hippos, or TTars that don't have Ice Punch and Dragon Dance on the switch or something.
 

cant say

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That's true. I was just throwing something out there, I imagine I'll try it w/ a few different teammates later. The Speed is definitely irritating, I'd be much more ok w/ 10 less Def. Heracross has the same phenomenon, and you still hardly ever see it non-mega, but it's different. I'm positive trying this I'd also have Cresselia. Thunder Wave took some hits this gen but still really helpful. Maybe even Sticky Web support. But mostly this is just good against Hippos, or TTars that don't have Ice Punch and Dragon Dance on the switch or something.
https://shinymarygold.hatenablog.com/entry/2018/07/11/021237

this is literally the only team that's used Mega Garchomp successfully this gen, and that's because it's on a Baton Pass team which anything can do well on...

Building a team around it like you're planning is basically doomed, there are just way too many threats in the top 20 in usage to make it work at all, and its speed tier is really disappointing.

I'm all for innovation so normally I'd be all for stuff like this but not mega chomp
 
https://shinymarygold.hatenablog.com/entry/2018/07/11/021237

this is literally the only team that's used Mega Garchomp successfully this gen, and that's because it's on a Baton Pass team which anything can do well on...

Building a team around it like you're planning is basically doomed, there are just way too many threats in the top 20 in usage to make it work at all, and its speed tier is really disappointing.

I'm all for innovation so normally I'd be all for stuff like this but not mega chomp
That makes sense, you did adopt my Regice. Ok I'll trust you, and not try it. It's not like Chomp itself is very fun it's just the item...such a boring movepool. I think my silly Drifblim has more of a future than m-chomp, but imo last gen was kinder to it. You still saw many Landog/Mence which are often good to set up on and which are also easy kills via Icy Wind, but back then you had very many Chomps and Kangaskhans. Thund-I was much more common but less Greninja and Thund-T. Mostly that nasty Tapu Koko, and none of the main Tapus are good for Drif. Oh well. I like it and it's the only passer of Minimize(Smeagle is just kinda gross.)

On a related note, I got the idea of Gigalith cause I saw the ability on PS! I didn't know beforehand...thought it got ranked off the rest(which I did find weird but didn't feel like asking.) Nice stats, and the SpD buff is great since that was the main weakness-well Spe but it was obviously meant to be slow, and it does ruin Gyro Balls never mind the weakness type wise. So do you like it? It sees little use but idk why exactly. I imagine Smooth Rock not AV? I'm pretty sure that after the initial buzz of "omg bulk"(Read:Regice,) AV TTar fell outta favor. But this is more Def and no 4x weakness/less besides.
 

ethan06

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Honestly Gigalith doesn't really offer much that Tyranitar or Hippowdon can't do better. Hippo is one of the best mons in the format for its bulk, typing and support movepool, and Tyranitar's Dark typing is incredibly useful for keeping bulky Psychics and stuff like Gengar in check. Tyranitar also has decent speed, superior overall bulk and a far wider coverage movepool including unique tech options like Pursuit, Ice Punch, Fire Punch so it's still the setter of choice for offensive sand. Gigalith has a few unique support options (really just Gravity and Explosion) but is less versatile than Tar and not as splashable as Hippo - even the sand boost can't save Gigalith from a lot of strong special attacks, and without Tyranitar's speed and bulk (AV is still great because it beats +2 Naganadel, which is something that maybe one or two other defensive Pokémon in the game can say for themselves) it finds itself in a no-win situation against far too many things.

Honestly, as a ground rule in this format in particular but also in competitive Pokémon in general, you need to think about individual Pokémon less on their own merits, and more in the context of the Pokémon that you'll be facing the most. Sure, Mega Garchomp is incredibly strong in Sand, but how many things in the top 20 are capable of restricting it to the point of redundancy, either by outspeeding and heavily damaging/outright OHKOing or by sponging its hits indefinitely until it loses 1v1? It's tough to put a number on it but I'd say that a Pokémon needs to have at least an okay matchup against 10 of the top 20, and a good matchup against at least 5. A good example here would be Scarf HP Ice Nihilego - it beats Salamence, both Charizard formes, all the Tapus, Thundurus-T without issue, and it can handle Greninja, Landorus-T, Mega Gengar, Gyarados in certain situations. It only really loses to Hippowdon, Porygon2 and the Steel-types, but these threats can be handled with one or two well-chosen teammates. Any of the regulars, feel free to refine these numbers because they're very ballpark :p

I wrote too much but basically, the metagame is a big old balancing act where things put in more or less work based on the amount of work everything else puts in, with the better things obviously rising to the top. If you find that something on your team is getting benched more often than not, or that you're losing a ton of games in a blind effort to "make it work", then it's probably not very good. With time and experience it gets easier to predict that outcome ahead of time as well (: Probably a little redundant to define basic competitive concepts here but I think we could all use the reminder from time to time
 
I feel like I lose like crazy(even though it's about 50-50...which basically is anyways,) so I decided to postpone my gimmicks...and just take the most standard looking team here. e_li_poke's HippoMenceAegi w/ SubTorrent Gren has some interesting sets but for mons I saw it had the largest # of the very common ones. So just took that I'm doing better at least. The Greninja is very interesting....wonder how that was made up. No ice, but I do like all the STABs even if they seemed redundant at first. They just do such different things, but is the sub itself worth it, and should it be Timid not Naive? The exta SpD mayb helps it beat out...this same set running Naive? I'm sure there's good logic behind it so if anyone knows it'd be good to learn.

Honestly Gigalith doesn't really offer much that Tyranitar or Hippowdon can't do better. Hippo is one of the best mons in the format for its bulk, typing and support movepool, and Tyranitar's Dark typing is incredibly useful for keeping bulky Psychics and stuff like Gengar in check. Tyranitar also has decent speed, superior overall bulk and a far wider coverage movepool including unique tech options like Pursuit, Ice Punch, Fire Punch so it's still the setter of choice for offensive sand. Gigalith has a few unique support options (really just Gravity and Explosion) but is less versatile than Tar and not as splashable as Hippo - even the sand boost can't save Gigalith from a lot of strong special attacks, and without Tyranitar's speed and bulk (AV is still great because it beats +2 Naganadel, which is something that maybe one or two other defensive Pokémon in the game can say for themselves) it finds itself in a no-win situation against far too many things.

Honestly, as a ground rule in this format in particular but also in competitive Pokémon in general, you need to think about individual Pokémon less on their own merits, and more in the context of the Pokémon that you'll be facing the most. Sure, Mega Garchomp is incredibly strong in Sand, but how many things in the top 20 are capable of restricting it to the point of redundancy, either by outspeeding and heavily damaging/outright OHKOing or by sponging its hits indefinitely until it loses 1v1? It's tough to put a number on it but I'd say that a Pokémon needs to have at least an okay matchup against 10 of the top 20, and a good matchup against at least 5. A good example here would be Scarf HP Ice Nihilego - it beats Salamence, both Charizard formes, all the Tapus, Thundurus-T without issue, and it can handle Greninja, Landorus-T, Mega Gengar, Gyarados in certain situations. It only really loses to Hippowdon, Porygon2 and the Steel-types, but these threats can be handled with one or two well-chosen teammates. Any of the regulars, feel free to refine these numbers because they're very ballpark :p

I wrote too much but basically, the metagame is a big old balancing act where things put in more or less work based on the amount of work everything else puts in, with the better things obviously rising to the top. If you find that something on your team is getting benched more often than not, or that you're losing a ton of games in a blind effort to "make it work", then it's probably not very good. With time and experience it gets easier to predict that outcome ahead of time as well (: Probably a little redundant to define basic competitive concepts here but I think we could all use the reminder from time to time
You're right I think I'll just stick to obviously good things for a while/forever. I don't do good making up my own sets I guess I should just copy other people's.
 

Ika Ika Musume

formerly Devilican
You're right I think I'll just stick to obviously good things for a while/forever. I don't do good making up my own sets I guess I should just copy other people's.
As someone who errs on the side of meme, who cares? Pokemon is supposed to be fun. It may not win any tournaments or respect, but that's how the game should be played in my opinion. If you want to use Gigalith sand with Mega-Chomp, anyone can tell you it probably isn't going to do as well as Hippowdon + Mega Salamence, but you are a free dude. Anyways, up to you.

I feel like I lose like crazy(even though it's about 50-50...which basically is anyways,) so I decided to postpone my gimmicks...and just take the most standard looking team here. e_li_poke's HippoMenceAegi w/ SubTorrent Gren has some interesting sets but for mons I saw it had the largest # of the very common ones. So just took that I'm doing better at least. The Greninja is very interesting....wonder how that was made up. No ice, but I do like all the STABs even if they seemed redundant at first. They just do such different things, but is the sub itself worth it, and should it be Timid not Naive? The exta SpD mayb helps it beat out...this same set running Naive? I'm sure there's good logic behind it so if anyone knows it'd be good to learn.
Not sure this is the right place to post your question, so perhaps it'll be moved in the future. The Greninja set is one that was very popular a few seasons ago. Essentially you can get into torrent range using substitute plus Greninja's fast speed tier and fire off a z-hydro cannon which hits like a truck.

This is just an example of Greninja vs. defensive Porygon2

252 SpA Torrent Greninja Hydro Vortex (200 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 153-180 (80.1 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Needless to say, you'll very rarely find any non-super effective moves with no boosts doing that much to a P2.

There's no point it being Naive as that's generally limited to protean greninjas which use both special and physical attacks (timid has minus attack which is bad for moves like gunk shot). I believe nowadays sash torrent is starting to become the more popular torrent gren set on top teams, though I could be wrong here.
 

ethan06

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You're right I think I'll just stick to obviously good things for a while/forever. I don't do good making up my own sets I guess I should just copy other people's.
that's really not what i meant at all :( i get where you're coming from - selling out to the top 20 can make the game a whole lot less fun if you're one of the majority who want to win on their own terms. however, i still think that starting with the common mons and working your way back is a very solid way to improve because when you know exactly what these pokemon are capable of, it'll be far easier to find new and unorthodox (and unique!) ways to deal with them. also, the top pokemon are the top pokemon for a reason, because everyone on the ladder is trying their hardest to win every game and it's only natural to find the path of least resistance with the mons that are easiest to use and hardest to beat. in a lot of ways, a closed meta like usum bss is actually really good for this because it makes it that much easier to predict the average team and playstyle rather than trying to account for a billion threats all at once. i guess what i'm trying to say with these posts is that yes, winning consistently and playing against the meta seem like polar opposites in a format that's totally controlled by the top 20 pokemon, but it is possible to do both! you just need to find a healthy medium between bog standard and off the wall and always keep the opponent's thought process in mind both in the battles and in the teambuilder. a lot of the best players here use some of the most ridiculous shit in the game and still get results by keeping these ideas in mind as they build and play. wrote too much again but i hope my ramblings are somewhat helpful <3
 
That's encouraging. I haven't used teams w/ more weird mons than standard since at least X and Y, before I joined here, but there's more to it than just mostly using top mons and then something different. You are very right I have to look at top mons(20 is a fine # for that.) Regice for instance doesn't do so great against many of them even if I'd still say it looks amazing on paper. Drifblim is often OHKOd....and besides those 2 I haven't even used any real gimmicks yet.

I will change that team I copied from the Sample thread, i really hate not having much chance against semi-common mons that are only not quite standard for reasons i don't understand. Traditionally this means Gliscor and Heatran, now it includes Snorlax which that team can't beat well at all. That Greninja is such a cool set, but I don't much care for Hippo or Kartana(anything 4x weak to fire but that isn't even the main issue w/ Kart, that SpD is sickening and the HP mostly ruins the 'good' typing for phys. hits too.) Mence is ofc very good but I like the Gren more so i think something not walled/beaten by lots of bulky waters would be better for a mega. Koko can stay even if they are a mon I dislike seeing on the opposing tem, and I'm not digging the Aegislash at all even if this is a giant rating persons' team-they prolly better get how to use that crazy set since they made it. It's practically mono-steel since Shadow Sneak does so little w/o lots of boosts, and exposes blade form to hits. Is 2 different Z-move users on a team common, just like 2 megas?

Related to that, has TrickScarf gone down the toilet? Since possibly 2/3 of a team can be immune now. I dislike choiced mons as a rule, even though i haven't used them much much when i have it's mostly been for Trick. Funny when it works anyways.

EDIT: here's a team, hidden at bottom. i guess you could say i took your advice, 2 of the same mons(have not brought Koko once in the few battles so far, generally don't like and skeptical of it so thinking to change it.) TTar is surprisingly good, i underestimate it cause of that akward typing. Had Amoongus, Whimsicott should deal better w/ the dreaded Glalie and ofc still Loom. I like Z-memento a lot, and since it doesn't need so much Spe Calm is kinda fun, better vs Koko and often lives Gren Ice Beam, or one from 252 SpA non-life orb Phereomosa-or uninvested after rocks, again usually. Then locking it on that lets TTar have an easy time. i really like Whimsicott, the Prankster debuff hasn't totally ruined it, since dark is weak to fairy and Memnto is for me.

Tapu Koko @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Electric Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 212 HP / 4 Def / 4 SpA / 92 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Dazzling Gleam
- Nature's Madness
- Taunt

Greninja @ Waterium Z
Ability: Torrent
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Hydro Cannon
- Water Shuriken
- Substitute

Tyranitar-Mega @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Rock Slide
- Ice Punch
- Crunch

Pheromosa @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Poison Jab
- Ice Beam

Landorus-Therian @ Figy Berry
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 236 HP / 244 Def / 28 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Tomb
- U-turn

Whimsicott @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Prankster
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Memento
- Encore
- Leech Seed
 
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Has anyone done the legwork on Bold Z-Conversion Porygon-Z with Recover? This is what I have been using so far:

Porygon-Z @ Normalium Z
Ability: Adaptability
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 64 SpA / 188 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Conversion
- Recover

I would be most interested in the less splashable builds that forgo the 188 EV speed investment it takes to hit 201 at +1.
 

Ika Ika Musume

formerly Devilican
Has anyone done the legwork on Bold Z-Conversion Porygon-Z with Recover? This is what I have been using so far:

Porygon-Z @ Normalium Z
Ability: Adaptability
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 64 SpA / 188 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Conversion
- Recover

I would be most interested in the less splashable builds that forgo the 188 EV speed investment it takes to hit 201 at +1.
I've found a few variants from my notes. This one you mention above is pretty similar to this one:

Porygon-Z @ Normalium Z
Ability: Adaptability
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 60 SpA / 4 SpD / 188 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Conversion
- Recover

http://frietpoke.hatenablog.com/entry/2018/09/08/235931

This one is an interesting P-Z build, not Z-Conversion, but has some cool benchmarks:

Porygon-Z @ Normalium Z
Ability: Adaptability
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 68 Def / 36 SpA / 60 SpD / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Uproar
- Shadow Ball
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute

The EV investments are for 197 attack mega salamence double edge (sans 1 roll), 75% chance to live adamant mimikyu mimikyu-z as well as a bunch of other stuff such as lele psychic, though given its lack of speed, this is mostly too bulky for what you are looking for.

http://ramune88.hatenablog.com/entry/S11構築記事

Porygon-Z @ Normalium Z
Ability: Adaptability
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 244 Def / 36 SpA / 4 SpD / 220 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Conversion
- Recover

Same except outspeeds mega lop at +1

https://ikae-poke.hatenablog.com/entry/2018/09/04/023059

This also has a similar variant with the same speed expect it being timid rather than bold with 100 hp to compensate for this.

https://revolver-13.hatenablog.com/entry/2018/05/16/162857

Porygon-Z @ Normalium Z
Ability: Adaptability
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 108 Def / 84 SpA / 68 SpD / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Beam
- Shadow Ball
- Nasty Plot
- Trick Room

The second one I've just added as an aside, this is specifically for breaking through pex/venusaur.

http://tryglelate.hatenablog.com/entry/2018/07/10/173033

In essence though, at least since Season 8 or so from when I've started recording sets/spreads of top Japanese teams, there isn't really a variant of z-conversion P-Z that doesn't hit at least 201 speed at +1, it is just very valuable.

From my own theorycrafting, the next major benchmark down is greninja, which would require 130 speed, beyond that you could go even as far low as 117 speed which would allow you to outspeed adamant mence at +1.
 
I took this pretty cool team from this blog post and replaced Krookodile with defensive Porygon2, since I think Krookodile was used more for novelty reasons than actual goodness. It worked pretty well for me, as I was able to climb into mid 1700 with the team. Using Porygon2 was fun, it's pretty powerful and it's kind of fake trick room with the azumarill. But it has also very similar coverage as other team members and I struggled a lot against Ferrothorn and Venusaur. Do you have any ideas how I could change the team up?

Pokepaste
 

ethan06

⋖(☼┆☼)⋗
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Hi! My first thought would be to change the coverage around on Metagross - I feel like two Steel moves and BoltBeam coverage on a team with P2 and Greninja is extremely redundant, so as an experiment maybe try Zen Headbutt > Iron Head and Hammer Arm or Hidden Power [Fire] > Thunder Punch?

e: on further reflection, maybe hold onto tpunch as toxapex looks like an utter bitch for this team - metagross definitely has room for anti-ferrothorn coverage if you think any of its moves aren't earning their keep. i guess you could also look at experimenting with the coverage on gren a little bit?
 
Well computer didn't want to translate....anyway if you change Metagross from Iron to Zen Head you probably won't need T-Punch much. Hammer Arm hits mega Gyara harder anyway. Maybe you need T-Punch for Fini? But it's just a 3HKO, so maybe making other mons better for it would be more efficient since most waters are rarer these days, and many take Meta's T-Punch ok.

Is that an AV Landog? Would take Fini's attacks ok, you can even use Explosion for when you have to deal the most damage. Gunk Shot on Greninja seems good, it even lets you live a hit from max SpA Venu(even if you miss.) It won't win but it does more damage before losing. I'm sure others can help you more but if you post the team I can try to give better advice.
 

Jhon

Show me something eternal
is a Pre-Contributor
Biber Personally, I would say avoid swapping Iron for Zen at all costs, it's just awful to have as a primary stab in this meta. Iron+BP is super good too. Do make it Jolly natured though, you currently have it as Serious.
I think if you're struggling with Ferrothorn, then maybe swapping Sub for HP Fire on Gren could help some. Otherwise, I don't think the team looks too weak to it.
Venusaur still often loses to Metagross without Zen, but if you wanted to make it a bit more secure, having twave on P2 could do it. A paralysed Venusaur is in a very poor position vs Iron head Metagross. And as Venu is very often paired with Celesteela, keeping Thunder Punch on meta would help for the combo. Discharge on P2 can of course eventually paralyse, espeically as Venu plays a slower game and often switches in on P2, so keeping Discharge isn't a strictly poor idea either, just keep in mind that paralysing can be a focus point of the matchup.
I'd also consider increasing Azumarill's speed up by just two points, it's currently 88, but if it were 90 (156evs) it could outspeed a paralysed base110 (m-Metagross) which could be useful, but ultimately a minor change.

There's also a Team Building & Help Thread for this sort of thing
 
Yeah Iron Head is awesome I think both STABs and Ice Punch is best. It's just so good to have a perfectly strong move w/ a decent flinch chance and 100 acc. Also, Metagross likes to OHKO Tapu Lele. If you are paralyzing Venu then IH should be plenty good, and Zen is unnecessary.
 
Thanks for all the kind help!

I started to change it up by replacing discharge with thunder wave and also changing Porygon2 from Download to Trace, as the damage output is not as important with Ice Beam as the only move benefiting from it. Also fixed the Metagross nature.

If you have any ideas for bigger changes let me now. I already tried CharizadY instead of Porygon2, but it was not as good.

There's also a Team Building & Help Thread for this sort of thing
In this thread it says:
Avoid posting full RMTs here. Go to the RMT Other Teams forum to post finished teams and to ask for help with tweaking it. This thread is for teams that are not fully built yet, and cores that can be built around
So I was hesistant to post it there
 

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