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I'm not sure I agree with that.

Whilst Ferrothorn I do think you can deal with with the combination of heatran and azumarill, defensive mega venusaur is a real issue to the team. You are pretty much relying on the flinches to win. With your spread, you have a chance to 3hko with iron head. Actually you see this quite a lot in competitive games where people refuse to run zen headbutt because it's a "bad move" which it kind of is against a wide variety of the metagame, but it does leave these teams to getting 6-0ed by Venusaur. Venusaur I believe was 8-2 in BSPL USUM BSS because players did not respect or prepare for it within their teambuilding. Venusaur in my opinion beats every single mon in your team and can probably just lead turn 1 and win and it forces you to bring p2, metagross and probably greninja just because that one mon exists on the opponents side.

I can't say there's an easy answer to your issue and it's probably fine having that one bad matchup since venusaur isn't too common (as said above, you pretty much have to rely on hax to win), however replacing iron head is not that answer. Iron head however is pretty much mandatory and is easily metagross's best move, don't change it for anything.
 
hey.

i found a very unusual japanese team, and ive been having some success with it but i have no idea what im doing tbh. im wondering if theres anyone who would be up to sitting down with me sometime and going through it with me and helping me understand it somewhat.
 

cant say

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hey.

i found a very unusual japanese team, and ive been having some success with it but i have no idea what im doing tbh. im wondering if theres anyone who would be up to sitting down with me sometime and going through it with me and helping me understand it somewhat.
jump on discord or the showdown room (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pokemon-showdown-discord-chatrooms-useful-links.3626703/), there's always someone around to go through a team you have. or just post the team here!
 
I was thinking about a trio you never see on here-hitmons lee, chan, and top. Thelatter two I've dismissed as bad for BSS but I'm wondering about Hitmonlee.

252+ Atk Normal Gem Hitmonlee Fake Out vs. 244 HP / 164+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 18-22 (9.4 - 11.5%) -- possible 9HKO

Now that;s weak but the HJK after that from max atk OHKOs even if both moves have min rolls. Unburden is what makes this set seem ok, Lee isn't fast before the boost but at +2 Adamant is very fast. A sash would be fine too because of bad 50/53/110 bulk. That could maybe stop some mons after 1 DD for instance, or even +2 if you use Rock Tomb as they break sash. Soes that sound any good to anyone?
 
I was thinking about a trio you never see on here-hitmons lee, chan, and top. Thelatter two I've dismissed as bad for BSS but I'm wondering about Hitmonlee.

252+ Atk Normal Gem Hitmonlee Fake Out vs. 244 HP / 164+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 18-22 (9.4 - 11.5%) -- possible 9HKO

Now that;s weak but the HJK after that from max atk OHKOs even if both moves have min rolls. Unburden is what makes this set seem ok, Lee isn't fast before the boost but at +2 Adamant is very fast. A sash would be fine too because of bad 50/53/110 bulk. That could maybe stop some mons after 1 DD for instance, or even +2 if you use Rock Tomb as they break sash. Soes that sound any good to anyone?
I've used Hitmonlee in GBU and I can unfortunately confirm that it is not very good in the USUM metagame. It kind of has a dual problem of being too frail whilst not having the movepool and quite enough power to become a legitimate threat. In particular not having ice coverage or electric coverage really hampers it. 120 base attack is not quite enough when it is so difficult to set up. The best defensive walls in the tier (asides from P2), hippowdon, landorus-t, aegislash and tapu fini do not care for it at all and both wall and take it out effortlessly. It also cannot handle mega salamence. Priority like mach punch from breloom and bullet punch from scizor/metagross also ruins it whilst it struggles to get off unburden if there is a tapu lele on the opposing side. It also has no great set up move, it might be better if it was possible to use swords dance/sash + unburden for example. That's not even talking about mimikyu which utterly destroys it.

In essence the metagame is not kind to hitmonlee unfortunately.
 
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That makes sense. What do you think about Scarf Pheromosa? I really like Pheromosa. A neutral Spe scarf outspeeds anything that's only +1 and many things at +2. It seems like overkill for Spe mostly but I find Pheromosa just lacks the coverage, or power w/ said coverage, to do anything much better than U-turning out on many mons that haven't been weakened a lot, like Aegi, Venu, Mimikyu, Celseteela, Mawile, and others, sometimes even w/ a +atk nature and/or LO. Scarf still hits the usual customers, the ice weaks, greninja, etc, for lots and never cares if they are +1 Spe. Most of this idea actually came from Scarf Greninjas surprising me a lot, and they are much more common than I'd expect at 18%. Sash fixes that too, I don't know if that'd be completely better or not.

The vast majority of the time I use Z-ground Phero, scarf actually has a little more usage going off the usage stats.
 
Hello everyone, do not kill me for what I'm going to ask, but why are the Good Cores and Role Compendium forums not updated? I say it's not that the forums do not work, but the metagame has progressed since the last time they were updated and it's strange that the forums do not advance along with the goal, as it is in the smogon tiers
 

chemcoop

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Hello everyone, do not kill me for what I'm going to ask, but why are the Good Cores and Role Compendium forums not updated? I say it's not that the forums do not work, but the metagame has progressed since the last time they were updated and it's strange that the forums do not advance along with the goal, as it is in the smogon tiers
I think the biggest issue with the BSS sub-forum is that we simply don't have enough contributors. The person who ran the Role Compendium thread has more or less moved on from Smogon/PS! and I believe the person responsible for the Good Cores thread is pretty busy irl and hasn't been able to devote tons of time to Smogon-related stuff.

Smogon Metagames have a much larger player base and benefit from the fact that Showdown is the main way to play those tiers, leading to PS! users joining the respective tier forums and some becoming regular contributors. BSS suffers from the fact that the vast majority of BSS games happen on cartridge and most of the outstanding players are not English speakers. Thus, it's much harder for us to get skilled players to contribute to our forum than for other Smogon tiers.

In addition, neither of those threads are particularly critical to metagame knowledge. We stay on top of the most important and most used threads, namely VR, sample teams, this thread, and the 3v3 general discussion thread. If we had more contributors, would it be great to keep the Cores and Roles threads constantly updated? Sure. Unfortunately that's just going to be hard to do until we get more active users.
 
I think the biggest issue with the BSS sub-forum is that we simply don't have enough contributors. The person who ran the Role Compendium thread has more or less moved on from Smogon/PS! and I believe the person responsible for the Good Cores thread is pretty busy irl and hasn't been able to devote tons of time to Smogon-related stuff.

Smogon Metagames have a much larger player base and benefit from the fact that Showdown is the main way to play those tiers, leading to PS! users joining the respective tier forums and some becoming regular contributors. BSS suffers from the fact that the vast majority of BSS games happen on cartridge and most of the outstanding players are not English speakers. Thus, it's much harder for us to get skilled players to contribute to our forum than for other Smogon tiers.

In addition, neither of those threads are particularly critical to metagame knowledge. We stay on top of the most important and most used threads, namely VR, sample teams, this thread, and the 3v3 general discussion thread. If we had more contributors, would it be great to keep the Cores and Roles threads constantly updated? Sure. Unfortunately that's just going to be hard to do until we get more active users.
Well that explains a lot of things, it's a pity that there are not many collaborators in the BSS forums, this being a pretty entertaining goal, reason why I migrated from OU to here, apart from the fact that at the time I was playing OU Landorus it was the the most disgusting thing in the world haha
 
I think the biggest issue with the BSS sub-forum is that we simply don't have enough contributors. The person who ran the Role Compendium thread has more or less moved on from Smogon/PS! and I believe the person responsible for the Good Cores thread is pretty busy irl and hasn't been able to devote tons of time to Smogon-related stuff.

Smogon Metagames have a much larger player base and benefit from the fact that Showdown is the main way to play those tiers, leading to PS! users joining the respective tier forums and some becoming regular contributors. BSS suffers from the fact that the vast majority of BSS games happen on cartridge and most of the outstanding players are not English speakers. Thus, it's much harder for us to get skilled players to contribute to our forum than for other Smogon tiers.

In addition, neither of those threads are particularly critical to metagame knowledge. We stay on top of the most important and most used threads, namely VR, sample teams, this thread, and the 3v3 general discussion thread. If we had more contributors, would it be great to keep the Cores and Roles threads constantly updated? Sure. Unfortunately that's just going to be hard to do until we get more active users.
I'd love to start running some project/resource threads, especially if people aren't really stepping up to the plate. The activity seems very low, and if the current threads aren't gonna be updated anytime soon (Next Best Thing, Lure that Threat, Good Cores, etc), we should really give them new owners or start new threads to pique interest.

Any chance I could run a weekly research thread? Its a thing in OU where a couple of mons are put on the slate and people volunteer to research a mon, including potential sets, partners (or sample teams/cores). I assume I'd need a moderator approval?
 
I'm kind of reluctant on my end. When I try contribute to the community either I end up stepping on people's toes which is not my intention at all or talking to myself which is ultimately pointless because I'm not the greatest player and I want to learn, but if someone wants to start something I'm always happy to help and post/research a bit and support said person.

With a lot of threads, I find that they have served their time. There are only so many mons you can put in those "lure that threat"/"next best thing" threads before you run out of relevant pokemon.

It's not as though there is nothing that is new that can be done.

What might be cool is some sort of team preview session where people just go through how they pick on certain matchups.

I've also as well as a few other people thought that a ghosting tournament might be a cool idea, but it's obviously hard to fit in with a busy tour schedule.
 
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I've been wondering about Scald on a mon like Toxapex(In my case I was a bit disappointed w/ Pex after wanting to use it, but at least for in game battle facilities I've always liked Alomomola a lot.) It's run on almost all of them and while it make sense I also kind of wonder if it's worth it since the damage is usually tiny and the burn only procs as much as OHKO moves hit, but it's just a simple status as opposed to a KO.

Alomomola has a bigger difference between Atk and SpA so it's more likely that that shouldn't bother w/ Scald. But this is a question for both of them, if Scald is worth it over other options, even niche ones.
 
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I've been wondering about Scald on a mon like Toxapex(In my case I was a bit disappointed w/ Pex after wanting to use it, but at least for in game battle facilities I've always liked Alomomola a lot.) It's run on almost all of them and while it make sense I also kind of wonder if it's worth it since the damage is usually tiny and the burn only procs as much as OHKO moves hit, but it's just a simple status as opposed to a KO.

Alomomola has a bigger difference between Atk and SpA so it's more likely that that shouldn't bother w/ Scald. But this is a question for both of them, if Scald is worth it over other options, ven niche ones.
I'm pretty sure scald is standard on Toxapex. Less sure on Mola as that mon isn't used that often. What I can say about scald though is it is used for the burn and not the damage. The thing with Pex is since it can generally live forever and can pivot in on a large portion of the metagame, it will eventually get that burn and it creates a punishing situation for any physical switch in as there is always that burn chance. Pex can 1v1 the vast majority of physical threats in the game if it gets that burn. Even something like adamant lando-t:

252+ Atk burned Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 55-66 (35 - 42%) -- 85.4% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

This still applies if you are running a spdef variant.

Sludge bomb can be better for a few niche situations such as greninja and tapu koko, but overall it is a worse move since it lets steels come in for free.

I've been experimenting with a more offensive toxapex with waterium-z liquidation, gunk shot, knock off, recover as well as banded pex on a stall team to lure in certain threats to stall and get rid of them, but for the most part I think toxapex is pretty well defined as a mon.
 
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Jhon

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I've been wondering about Scald on a mon like Toxapex(In my case I was a bit disappointed w/ Pex after wanting to use it, but at least for in game battle facilities I've always liked Alomomola a lot.) It's run on almost all of them and while it make sense I also kind of wonder if it's worth it since the damage is usually tiny and the burn only procs as much as OHKO moves hit, but it's just a simple status as opposed to a KO.

Alomomola has a bigger difference between Atk and SpA so it's more likely that that shouldn't bother w/ Scald. But this is a question for both of them, if Scald is worth it over other options, ven niche ones.
Burn is a very impactful status though, and any non-recovarable damage is progress towards a KO. for stall teams a burn on a key mon can let your walls take hits with much more ease (expanding options) or allow Gengar to get a pick with Hex. For these reasons Scald is very good, especially as burns can be inflicted on most pokemon immune to poison status.
Besides, you shouldn't be looking for major damage output from mons strictly playing defense.
I used Alomomola a fair amount early in the year. I was mostly using Whirlpool as it's attacking move (other slots were Toxic, Wish and Protect). Scald would be fine on it, as would another utility attack like Knock Off. In egenral though, Alomomola is basically unseen as Toxapex fills the generalised role better. I was only using it because I wanted a Wish user to pair with AV/SpDef Heatran, which of course lacks its own reliable recovery. This was as a take on the Salamence-Toxapex-Steel cores which where going around at the time.
 
Oh ok. I've had a hard time using Toxapex but if I were to I better understand why they all(virtually) have Scald.

I'd thought about Whirlpool, idk though. I have yet to use Alomomola much in BSS, my team seems to be doing good on PS o if that continues I'll go to cart soon and might not experiment until actually getting a good rank for once. Definitely Alomomola needs Wish, and not just from lack of Recover. Mine for the battle tree also has Liquidation, Toxic, and Scald which is getting the stink eye. It's not bad but mostly Alomomola is fine w/o burn cause of crazy physical fat that I think beats out even Pex. Special side is iffy might use Mirror Coat. Knock Off is cool but between the in-game mons occasional lack of significant items and BSS mons like p2 or Cress that get messed up just fine by Toxic I'm on the fence.

I wonder if Alomomola might not be fully outclassed by Pex, mostly better stats and 1 less weakness at least. Toxic immunity would be nice but Alomola ofc gets Regenerator too so can switch around. I can maye see it pairing better w/ Venu(no shared poison type for psychic weakness...though Alomomola is still scared of lele.) and Zard X( no shared ground weakness and Zard resists grass/electric.) I even spent some time on EVs, I think 124 HP/124 Atk/ 252+ Def/ 4 SpD/ 4 Spe is better than max HP/Def for something I forgot. Or neither of the last 2 4s and 132 HP.
 
Oh ok. I've had a hard time using Toxapex but if I were to I better understand why they all(virtually) have Scald.

I'd thought about Whirlpool, idk though. I have yet to use Alomomola much in BSS, my team seems to be doing good on PS o if that continues I'll go to cart soon and might not experiment until actually getting a good rank for once. Definitely Alomomola needs Wish, and not just from lack of Recover. Mine for the battle tree also has Liquidation, Toxic, and Scald which is getting the stink eye. It's not bad but mostly Alomomola is fine w/o burn cause of crazy physical fat that I think beats out even Pex. Special side is iffy might use Mirror Coat. Knock Off is cool but between the in-game mons occasional lack of significant items and BSS mons like p2 or Cress that get messed up just fine by Toxic I'm on the fence.

I wonder if Alomomola might not be fully outclassed by Pex, mostly better stats and 1 less weakness at least. Toxic immunity would be nice but Alomola ofc gets Regenerator too so can switch around. I can maye see it pairing better w/ Venu(no shared poison type for psychic weakness...though Alomomola is still scared of lele.) and Zard X( no shared ground weakness and Zard resists grass/electric.) I even spent some time on EVs, I think 124 HP/124 Atk/ 252+ Def/ 4 SpD/ 4 Spe is better than max HP/Def for something I forgot. Or neither of the last 2 4s and 132 HP.
I'd assume the main reason you would use Mola is for fat wish passing, most likely into fat steels like celesteela, heatran and aegislash or perhaps even mega metagross. I think asides from that, it is outclassed by toxapex. I'd be tempted to use other mons too for trapping.

Toxapex, as is, is mainly used on balance and stall, where having toxic immunity is really important. The secondary poison typing is also important as it gives it resistance to fairy (most important of which is mimikyu-z) and grass. Mola and Pex are both real momentum sappers in a metagame where momentum is really important. Neither can really deal damage, but Pex is far less of a momentum sap than Mola because it has haze and recover. Haze allows it to not get set up on for free, whilst recover is only one turn instead of two. Mola is pretty easy set up bait for a lot of mons unfortunately, including mence, mimikyu, lando, zard, fini, gyarados, naga, volc etc. as it just doesn't do enough damage or you have to rely on scald burns.

I'd assume best spread is similar to the chansey one. 252+ def/252 spdef with the remaining 4 put in whatever.
 
I've asked a few times on PS but maybe no one on then knew. Why is Pelipper about 10 times as common as Torkoal?

Pelipper is #60 in use and on 2.1% of teams vs Torkoal at #144 on 0.24% of teams. Despite this it has better stats everywhere except Spe-and they are both slow anyways so not too bad-and SpA(base 95 vs 85 but Torkoal has more bulk on both sides and the option to go mixed, which would likely just mean Explosion but still.)

They both bring a weather to the table that buffs their STAB, or one of them w/ Pelipper. Pelipper's Hurricane is also STAB and that is a better secondary move that benefits from the weather than Solarbem but it has far fewer support options and 60/100/70 bulk seems so much worse than 70/140/70(actually better than Skarmory, w/ only difference being 5 HP,) that Roost doesn't seem impressive at all despite being reliable recovery-stats reflect this in Roost's low usage.

Neither of the beat many of the top mons well-their use comes from the weather they set(though I've considered using Torkoal even before it got Drought)-so the mon that uses it has to deal w/ most threats. But Torkoal can be EVd to beat Mimikyu fairly well and even gets Clear Smog. Pelipper has Scald but Lava Plume is just as good and Torkoal has a fairy resistance and more bulk to fall back on if burn doesn't proc fast/at all.

The only reason I can think of that Pelipper is so much more common(albeit still fairly uncommon) is that rain is better than sun. Is that true? I can maybe see it because weakening fire tends to make more difference than weakening water, and you can mess up some mons that uses weather reliant healing moves like synthesis. Rain also has more fringe buffs that I can think of like Hurricane/Thunder acc, unlike just skipping Solarbeam charge-up turn. Grass isn't that good and a weather ability switch in ruins it.

U-Turn may be a big part of why Pelipper is so much more common than Torkoal and why it sees a bit more use than Politoed, which is otherwise better pretty much everywhere. So I could pretty easily be convinced either way, I just think it's worth asking Torkoal is cool.
 

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I've asked a few times on PS but maybe no one on then knew. Why is Pelipper about 10 times as common as Torkoal?

Pelipper is #60 in use and on 2.1% of teams vs Torkoal at #144 on 0.24% of teams. Despite this it has better stats everywhere except Spe-and they are both slow anyways so not too bad-and SpA(base 95 vs 85 but Torkoal has more bulk on both sides and the option to go mixed, which would likely just mean Explosion but still.)

They both bring a weather to the table that buffs their STAB, or one of them w/ Pelipper. Pelipper's Hurricane is also STAB and that is a better secondary move that benefits from the weather than Solarbem but it has far fewer support options and 60/100/70 bulk seems so much worse than 70/140/70(actually better than Skarmory, w/ only difference being 5 HP,) that Roost doesn't seem impressive at all despite being reliable recovery-stats reflect this in Roost's low usage.

Neither of the beat many of the top mons well-their use comes from the weather they set(though I've considered using Torkoal even before it got Drought)-so the mon that uses it has to deal w/ most threats. But Torkoal can be EVd to beat Mimikyu fairly well and even gets Clear Smog. Pelipper has Scald but Lava Plume is just as good and Torkoal has a fairy resistance and more bulk to fall back on if burn doesn't proc fast/at all.

The only reason I can think of that Pelipper is so much more common(albeit still fairly uncommon) is that rain is better than sun. Is that true? I can maybe see it because weakening fire tends to make more difference than weakening water, and you can mess up some mons that uses weather reliant healing moves like synthesis. Rain also has more fringe buffs that I can think of like Hurricane/Thunder acc, unlike just skipping Solarbeam charge-up turn. Grass isn't that good and a weather ability switch in ruins it.

U-Turn may be a big part of why Pelipper is so much more common than Torkoal and why it sees a bit more use than Politoed, which is otherwise better pretty much everywhere. So I could pretty easily be convinced either way, I just think it's worth asking Torkoal is cool.
you answered it yourself, rain is better than sun. this is mostly thanks to Mega Swampert being such a good user of swift swim, and there really being no good chlorophyll users. There's also Mega Charizard Y which is the preferred sun setter for chloro Venu teams
 
I remember from a long time ago, last gen when I first started playing somewhat seriously, seeing on here a list of mons in the VR thread that were up till then constantly getting nominated or something, so there was a very clear note not to bring them up because they were generally not considered viable.

I remember 4, and that might've been it. Florges, Donphan, Darmanitan, and Forretress. Before joining this site I'd used a Kee berry Florges in X and Y and due to the physical bulk and lack of relevant ability it did seem lacking even then. cant say didn't you use a Darmanitan some? I can't really agree that they are unviable even if there are clear issues. The Spe is not high-and, to be fair, not low-though it isn't tr territory at all. Web support or scarf can fix that but ofc at a price, locking or potentially sacking a mon to set up. The bulk is bad though I was fooled for a while by the nice HP. 95 isn't neraly crazy enough for 55/55 defenses, look at Wailord at 170/45/45 bulk, after some calcs I can attest Wailord is frail given the power and low Spe and Darmanitan is significantly worse on bulk, having slightly less than the stereotypical glass cannon Rampardos. But it's damage output isn't much lower than Rampardos'-perhaps higher cause Flare Blitz gets Sheer Force, 100 acc, and generally better coverage in the meta than Ramp's strongest move of Head Smash. Earthquake, U-Turn, and Superpower don't get SF but are wonderful moves besides and it gets Rock Silde. So have things changed and it's ok now or not? They can be really scary.

Forretress has a reputation of being directly outclassed by Ferrothorn which is understandable. More Spe is actually a huge detriment for once, an dit has slightly less power besides and way less special bulk in exchange for a bit more physical. Also not spore immune w/o overcoat or item, but partially made up for w/ no fighting weakness. It gets some moves over Ferro, EQ(better than bulldoze esp. on these slow mons,) Counter(imo it should get mirror coat Counter is less useful on it,) and Toxic Spikes. Sturdy is good though, you could run a Mental Herb to guarantee SR besides against Magic Bounce, and it will always set up SR vs a fire mon if it can't break sash w/ a flinching move. That's big, some ferro even use sash to do that(though I find that a bit too weird it isn't terrible.) So I'm using that atm see how it does.

The one I mostly wanna ask about is Donphan. I really can't decide if it's good or outclassed-to me it doesn't seem bad but outclassed amounts to the same. My 1st idea to compare it to was Hippo. Hippo is better bulk, espescially special, at the cost of only 8 base atk and 3 Spe(which is actually 0 cause I'd imagine Donphan would run exact Spe to underspeed min Aegi by 1 just like Hippo can/should.) Again though you get Sturdy, nice to set up SR and it even get Endeavor to go w/ it. Ice shard is great and it has a ton of moves besides. Play Rough, Knock Off, Bounce(wth,) Gunk Shot(just noticed the acc buff lol,) Seed Bomb(not much good either but it;s there,) and Head Smash(eww, but maybe w/ rockium cuz so much BP.) So is it any good and if so is it just a SR mon too or should it experiment w/ all the coverage?
 

Jhon

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I remember from a long time ago, last gen when I first started playing somewhat seriously, seeing on here a list of mons in the VR thread that were up till then constantly getting nominated or something, so there was a very clear note not to bring them up because they were generally not considered viable.

I remember 4, and that might've been it. Florges, Donphan, Darmanitan, and Forretress.
I can't remember to back then, but Florges was widely just outclassed by Sylveon. It didn't really get anything to seperate it in Singles until ORAS Tutor became available, and even then it was some very minor stuff. Gimicky use of Endeavor most notably.
Darm is a similar case, when you're looking for an offensive fire-type, why look at Darm before Blaziken or Charizard megas? And if it didn't have to strictly be physical, Volcarona muscles in too. Darm can carve itself a niche by filling some weirder criteria, but more often than not one of the other options is just generally better.

Forretress and Donphan are both pokemon I tried out early sm. I was interested in working with sturdy, since it's a good ability and wanted to see where it could be taken after seeing a lot of z-elec sturdy Magnezone. Forretress I was trying with choice band, in a similar vein to CB Ferrothorn. but it was ultimately underwhelming even though Volt Switch and EQ where interesting to play with. In comparison, Grass/Steel is just so much better with highly valued resistance and super effective vs water. The weaker Gyros came into play surprisingly often too.

Donphan I was mostly looking at just using z-EQ with rocks and some other coverage. It too was largely mediocre to bad. Though unique in what it can do, the other ground types just offer wider utility. Hippo and especially Lando can do so much more. Both sand stream and intimidate are phenomenal abilities to have that offer more consitent approaches to matchups than using sturdy to check something does. In my opinion, they also let you play smarter due to them being much less linear in application.

For SR setting in particular, something like mental herb Forretress might be able to set with some decent consitency, but the mon offers too little otherwise. Lead focus sash Lando can set rocks with decent consitency, while having intimidate and threatening very strong attacks from a good speed tier. Likewise, if you wanted Toxic Spikes and/or SR, a focus sash Nihilego might be a good option. Other slower and bulkier setters like Hippo and Ferro just have better options overall.

Often what makes an effective mon is how generally it can be applied, or how adaptable it is. The lesser viable stuff like Florges, Darm, Forre and Donphan aren't as generally applicable or adaptable as their peers, but can still do a more precise unique set of things which give them a niche. It's just that the teams that need those niches can be very rare.
If you're looking to use some weirder picks, I'd just reccomend building a lot and patiently waiting for the niches to organically appear, forcing odd picks onto teams often leaves them performing poorly. When you find a ~5 mon team you're pretty happy with, just have a long look at what it can struggle with, and what additional roles you want for it, then genuinely look through what options can do that best.
 
Oh ok, that explains why many people just have 5 mons on a team. They WANT to lose to see what's wrong not cause they're weird:)
 
I'd imagine Donphan would run exact Spe to underspeed min Aegi by 1 just like Hippo can/should
I actually think Hippo SHOULDN'T do this unless you have an extreme deep-seated hatred of Weakness Policy Aegislash. Imagine getting 50% chip on Aegislash with some other pokemon, then switching into Hippo, eating a shadow ball, then getting outsped and KO'd by Never-Ending Nightmare the next turn turn. Now imagine getting 50% chip on Aegislash with the other pokemon, switching into Hippo, eating a shadow ball, then outspeeding and KOing with Earthquake. I think the better scenario is clear here. I think a lot of players overvalue underspeeding Aegislash as if it is some sort of holy grail, when in reality it is not, especially on a pokemon that can reliably 2HKO Aegislash with a non-contact move like Hippo (this is important, since Hippo doesn't care about king's shield). Again, unless you're really scared of Weakness Policy or really hate people who use Weakness Policy Aegislash or are trying to troll those people, there is no reason for your Hippo to underspeed 0- IV Aegislash. Eating a hit before OHKOing the Aegislash in Blade Form is just as bad as using Earthquake, doing over 50%, eating a hit, then KOing the next turn, and it is actually worse in situations where Aegi has been chippped into Shield Form EQ KO range previously.
 
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Jhon

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How do you even deal with evasion abusers? Like those frickin Minimizers?

VGC scarred me, alright? I'm scared of those pink tiny blobs now...
Minimize on stuff like Chansey/Clefable is pretty rare nowadays, with the advent of Z-moves (which of course can't miss) that style of evasion stuff in general fell off a little. Moody Glalie is the one most people are scared of but even that isn't too common (not top50 usage).
Some methods for handling them include utilising stuff like Curse Mimikyu, which essentially forces them to take hefty (eventually lethal) damage or switch out and lose everything they worked to setup. Perish Song M-Gengar can trap and eliminate them, while other Perish song users like Azumarill (or Politoed if you're playing rain) can force them out similar to Curse Mimi. These are the more tech-y low cost answers to that style of startegy.
Ultimately, it's going to require learning how people build and use those teams to start feeling comfortable playing against and beating them. Often well positioned offensive pressure is immensily effective, but you need to know how to lead against and play around their common support leads, such as Serperior or Mimikyu, to make the openings.
Something I think is worthwhile is finding one of these teams you want to learn to beat then just look over a bunch of your own, or other people's teams, and think about how the matchup plays out with different leads/modes and reasonable move choices. You can learn a lot by taking the time to think over that sort of thing.
 

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