Full Spikes-less Stall in OU? (2200+ and rising)

[Ubiquitous]

They said that stall would die in 6th gen...

Hello everyone, this is my first 6th Gen RMT. Let's face it, the current metagame is just packed to the brim with offensive teams, and stall isn't really getting much use. After all, that stupid OP Downloading bug is still U-turning around all over the place and everyone seems to love it. So my aim was to create a proper full stall team which is capable of taking on all of the offensive threats in the metagame right now. However, during this process I hit something of a snag - Defog. With nearly every team running a Defogger it is damn near impossible to keep those Spikes you worked so hard to set up on the field. So I decided to ditch it and try something pretty rare - Spikes-less full Stall. To my surprise this team has been pretty successful on the PS OU ladder, but I'm still learning the metagame and would appreciate some feedback, particularly from any experienced stall players out there. So without further ado, meet the team:​

Overall team strategy: Simple full stall. Try to keep Rocks up for as long possible, keep the opponents hazards away, then drain the opponent's HP away with a combination of Rocks, Sandstorm damage, Toxic, burn and Leech Seed.

Individuals:​

Clefable (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Aromatherapy​

I consider Clefable to be the MVP of this team. Though statistically she is one of the weakest, the roles she plays are absolutely crucial to the success of the team. Let's list why she's so great, shall we?

- Her mono-Fairy typing gives the team key resistances to Dark, Fighting and Bug, as well as a Dragon immunity, all of which are common attacking types.
- Some of the team's core (Heatran, Mega Venusaur) lack reliable recovery. Clefable provides invaluable Wish support for these two in particular as well as Tyranitar.
- Status moves are everywhere and having a cleric to rid the entire team of crippling status is incredibly useful, especially on a stall team where Toxic can make one of your team members unable to sponge multiple hits they would normally have no problem with.
- Setup sweepers usually shit all over full stall, but Clefable's Unaware makes them incapable of increasing their damage against her. For some reason quite a few people (including those further up the ladder!) seem to forget Clefable has Unaware, and start boosting against her only to find their attacks still do pittance.

Her EV spread is physically defensive for a few reasons. Firstly, it allows her to take on boosting physical Dragon types better, as their unboosted non SE coverage moves (usually Earthquake) fail to 2HKO her. It also means CM Latias' Psyshock does not sting as much, and Clefable can Wish off the damage. Secondly, her resistances to Dark, Fighting and Bug are more common on the physical side, so a physical investment lets her take NVE moves better, giving her breathing space to pull off a Wish or an Aromatherapy. Finally, her natural special bulk is good enough to take on some of the most dangerous specially-based setup sweepers in the game. I've used her against NP Thundurus-I and Tail Glow Manaphy and she has come out victorious on both occasions.

I've been running stall without spikes since the beginning of gen six, and it looks like your team is completely screwed by decently powerful boosting sweepers. I mean, unaware is good but Clefables defenses still kind of suck. Basically, the idea with your team is that a Clefable with moonblast can beat a sweeper because it doesn't have its boosts. I call BS. snip

Here is an example of a Clefable hater.

Here are the calcs to prove them wrong.

252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 107-127 (27.2 - 32.3%) -- 61.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 135-159 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- 42.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 157-186 (39.9 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Latias Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 82-97 (20.8 - 24.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Keldeo Surf vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 160-189 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-169 (36.6 - 43%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 162-192 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 168-200 (42.7 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Clefable stalls all of the above with Wish + Protect and wears them down with Moonblast. If I managed to get off a Toxic on any of them earlier, they can forget about stalling Clefable out of Moonblasts.

So there you have it. Clefable is a stall deity. She forms an unbelievably stable core with Heatran, and I suggest you try the pair out if you're looking a solid base to build a team around.

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SDef / 248 HP / 8 Def
Calm Nature
- Lava Plume
- Protect
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock

Heatran is the most reliable member of the team, always doing his job brilliantly. He checks many relevant threats in the metagame - Talonflame, Aegislash, Genesect, you name it. He lures Rotom-W and Toxics it on the switch, and isn't even 2HKOed by defensive Wash's Hydro Pump. Lava Plume's burn chance and Toxic's increasing damage go brilliantly with Protect, which also allows me to scout potential danger (e.g. Mega Charizard X can carry Earthquake or Roost - if it has Roost Heatran can beat it with Toxic, Protect, and sometimes a cheeky switch into Clefable on a predicted Dragon Claw).
I switched Roar to Stealth Rock after further testing and advice, as Heatran switches in more than any of my other team members on average and therefore can set up Rocks multiple times, which is crucial given the prevalence of Defog and the lack of Spikes on this team.
There's honestly not that much more to say about Heatran. If you play on the ladder, you know how good it is.

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Toxic
- Recover

My anti-VoltTurn team member. Before I introduced Gastrodon this team had serious issues with the popular VoltTurn cores of Scizor/Rotom-W and Landorus-T/Mega Manectric. Not any longer. Gastrodon royally screws these cores, and given the popularity of Rotom-W, it's a great asset to have. The Water immunity covers Heatran's weakness and gives Gastro a welcome power boost. I decided to forgo Ground STAB for Toxic and Ice Beam, as I need a quick way of wearing down opponents without Spikes and Earth Power/Quake doesn't really doesn't hit anything of note - at least, I haven't been in a situation where I've thought "Damn, I wish I had Earth Power".
The physically defensive spread is used to take U-turns more easily, and to provide an emergency Dragon check if Garchomp (for example) has a little too much fun. Gastrodon avoids the 2HKO from Outrage and retaliates with Ice Beam. He's also good against Excadrill, threatening it with Scald, and gives me a chance to Recover or Toxic the switch-in.

Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Relaxed Nature
- Giga Drain
- Earthquake
- Sleep Powder
- Leech Seed

The team's Mega, and the final part of the Fire-Water-Grass holy trinity core. Venusaur takes on the pesky Fairies Azumarill and Mawile with ease, whilst providing a full stop to Aegislash, Mega Lucario (shaky) and more. He also provides another status option for the team in the form of Sleep Powder, which is superb in a pinch to neuter a dangerous sweeper like Charizard Y on the switch. I've opted for Leech Seed + Giga Drain over Synthesis as my method of recovery, because Synthesis is rubbish when Tyranitar is your teammate, and because Leech Seed provides some nice chip damage, which is invaluable to this team.
Again, the EV spread is physically defensive to better handle Azumarill and Mawile, take random Earthquakes and Fighting moves better, and barely avoid the OHKO from +2 Mega Lucario's Close Combat, then retaliate with Sleep Powder (if it misses it's GG) or Earthquake if it has taken prior damage.

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 232 Def / 252 HP / 24 Spd
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Brave Bird

Skarmory was added to fix a horrendous Mega-Pinsir weakness (I got 6-0'ed, screw that thing), and has been solid if not spectacular. She makes really good use of Defog, as she can eliminate irritating hazards (particularly Spikes). Her resistances are very helpful for the team, especially that Ground immunity. She can't switch in anywhere near as often as I'd like, however, maybe a sign that this metagame is not too kind to Skarm, and that can be really annoying if I desperately need the opponent's Spikes gone and I can't find an opportunity to switch her in. The other issue with Skarm is that if the opponent's hazards are not up, she is pretty much dead weight unless my Rocks are up, which, if I have used Defog, won't be the case. This is probably the most changeable spot on the team, but I need a Mega Pinsir counter so unless there is another 'mon who can play similar roles, Skarm is needed...
Physically defensive EV spread because specially defensive Skarmory is about as useful as a physical Porygon-Z with Sharpen and Giga Impact.

Tyranitar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
Sassy Nature
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Rock Slide
- Fire Blast

And finally, Tyranitar patches up the somewhat lopsided EV distributions (most of the team have Physically Defensive spreads). His special bulk with Assault Vest is insane, and with Clefable's Wish support he can stick around for the whole game. His uninvested Attack is still pretty impressive and his Pursuit can be vital in Stall vs Stall matches to wear down a particularly irritating member of the opponent's team *cough Blissey* (the first kill is the most vital in these match-ups). Fire Blast toasts opposing Steels immune to Toxic, which is very useful. The sand that he brings is very helpful in wearing down opponents as well - however, it also rids Clefable of her Leftovers recovery and damages Venusaur every turn, which is mildly annoying.

Possible replacement: AV Tornadus-T


So there you have it - Spikes-less full stall in Gen 6. It's not the easiest team to use, and save for your the opponent quitting, you won't be winning matches in anything under 50 turns, but it is effective and pretty reliable nonetheless. If you want to try out stall in 6th gen, try this team out and see what you think! Please post any feedback and suggestions you have.
​

 

[glam]

Hey there, I'm glad to see that Unaware Clefable is turning into a thing for stall. I've been using it on my team to great success. One thing I wonder about: how tanky really is Clefable with a physically defensive EV spread? I was running the same EVs as you on my Clefable for quite a while and I found that she generally took hits pretty poorly from both ends of the spectrum, and relied on fairly desperate wish-spamming to survive. Additionally some of the game's more prominent physical setup sweepers, such as SD Talonflame and SD Aegislash force you out anyway (due to fairy resist and steel STAB respectively). Things like NP Thundurus are laughably ineffective against specially defensive Clefable. It would also give you a nice balance of physical and special defense on your team.

One other thing that stands out is that like many stall teams, dealing with NP Mega-Lucario can be a very challenging and delicate affair. Certainly your best answer is to put it to sleep with Venusaur, but that's a shaky proposition. Heatran can't switch into anything except Flash Cannon - it's 2HKO'd by Aura Sphere with no boosts and OHKO'd after a nasty plot. You mentioned that you wanted to try SR over Roar on Heatran; I think doing that and adding Roar onto Venusaur over Leech Seed could help deal with this problem. Venusaur is way more immediately threatening to Lucario than Heatran is so you're more likely to stop a sweep. Tyranitar can actually be an emergency check--he's only 2HKO'd by a non-boosted Aura Sphere--but if it turns out he's running SD instead of NP then TTar is in big trouble.

My last thought is a little bit off the wall and definitely take it with a grain of salt. But one thing you could consider in place of Skarmory is Bronzong. Unorthodox for sure, but Mega-Pinsir desperately struggles to do anything useful at all against Bronzong, the best he's able to do being a 2HKO with CC after a swords dance. If he opted for Earthquake instead, the best he's got is a 4HKO with Return. Meanwhile, Gyro Ball is a guaranteed 2HKO (from min-speed Bronzong vs max-speed MegaPinsir) and you even have the option to set up Reflect to make him even more laughably ineffective. I haven't actually tried this, it's just sort of a random thought, but you could consider it if you really don't like having Skarm on the team.

Overall, this is a really solidly constructed team. Your core FWG + Clefable is practically unbreakable, and TTar is an excellent complement to the rest of the team. Good luck on the ladder!

 

[Ubiquitous]

snip

Hi, thanks for the rate, I had a quick look at your team and it looks really neat.

Personally I prefer Clefable with a physically defensive spread simply because it complements her resistances, her natural Special Defence is OK and it gives her better synergy with Heatran. The threats you mentioned (SD Aegislash and Talonflame) are both handled by other members of the team, so they are not a problem. Meanwhile, physically defensive Clefable can still deal with a few Calm Mind boosters, as well as Dragon Dancers, because the Defence investment means she takes coverage moves rather well. Also - desperate Wish spamming is part of the fun!

Mega Lucario will always be a pain to stall, unfortunately (ban it ASAP please OU council). I've encountered it a few times, as you say the best option is sleeping it with Venusaur. I've manage to play around it after managing to get off a Leech Seed (Switched Clefable into predicted Aura Spheres and Heatran into Flash Cannons, and Protect stalled) but as you say, that's shaky as hell. I think I will try your suggestion of sticking Roar on Venu and SR on Heatran.

That leaves your suggestion of Bronzong>Skarm, however Skarm's Defog is too important to pass up unfortunately. Without it my team gets murdered by Spike stacking teams (Only Skarm avoids the damage from Spikes).

Thanks very much for your suggestions, and good luck with your own stall team!

 

[Own3y]

Hi ther, bud. Very nice stall team you have here, is pretty solid and very similar to the team I am using these days (Mega Venusaur, Latias, Heatran, Gyarados, Clefable, Hippowdon). I really don't see any big hole on the team but there are always some threats that are difficult to handle.

Besides Mega Venusaur I really see top 2 Knock Off users named Bisharp and AV Conkeldurr really destroys the team, and you can have big problems with that. So, I'll strongly recommend you running Synthesis on Venusaur for recovering better after a +2 Iron Head fromp Bisharp or an Ice Punch from Conkel (it does little damage, but, you know, damage y damage). I really don't see the point on using Sleep Powder so I'd recommend this moveset: Power Whip / Synthesis / Leech Seed / Earthquake. It's only a suggestion you know, I see you have say this:

I've opted for Leech Seed + Giga Drain over Synthesis as my method of recovery, because Synthesis is rubbish when Tyranitar is your teammate

but Sandstorm is not gonna be there always.

I also see you lack a WoW user, and I suppose having Toxic on Gastrodon is enough so you can give WoW to Heatran and try it, it's better for crippling some physically oriented mons, and I think that if you have no Rotom there you must use that.

I don't see any big hole as I said before so, congrats on that team man, and I wish seeing more stalls like this on the metagame, stall is pretty good :)

 

[Ajwf]

Hello

Really, Tyranitar is a bit of an issue on your team. There are a few reasons, mainly noting that clefable and Mega venusaur suffer their main recovery dying by tyranitar being around. In all honesty, as good of a wall as ttar is (temporarily), he does not have the support nor benefit this team as needed. Clefable does not pass big enough wishes to him and he is absolute burn bait. He just causes way too much strain on a frail cleric.

I suggest finding a replacement with levitate/flying/grass/bug to neutralize the earth issue. Yes, ground attacks generally should have special attention and with TTar you have 2 weak and one immunity, making ground very, very spammable. The best thing stall can do is neutralize that spam of ground as very few types have the sheer power of a 100/100 EQ with no downside. No type quite has the distribution of it.

I suggest latias. Key resists to water, grass, fight, fire and electric as well as having bug (covered 3 times, two of them being 4x resists) dark (covered one time, only fear knock off anyways), ice (one 4x resist, all else neutral) and ghost (not resisted, so this is a loss to aegislash (besides the fact that heatran/Venu hard cover that anyways? and sacred sword wrecked TTar) makes Latias fit in well. This can also allow you to choose your wish passer and the other one take a more reliable recovery. I would kind of suggest moonlight clefable, drop protect and go fire blast, then wish latias, add protect and two attacks, keeping aromatherapy on clefable. This DOES kind of stretch the cleric roll, but at the same time not all the time are you in need of both heal bells and wishes (nor can you afford to have it). Either way, latias has a versatile move pool, great special defense and really fits in nicely with heatran/clefable on a secondary steel/fairy/dragon core.

Edit: This switch also allows Venu to have reliable recovery, turning him from tank to wall.

 

[PkMn Gravija]

Just a quick rate, I had a quick look and your team team seems very vulnerable to a mega heracross sweep, sub variants get a free sub on the multiple switches they cause within the team and can proceed to 1-2hko everyone (this includes skarmory who is 2hko'd by close combat) to combat this as skarmory is capable of beating mega heracross you should use whirlwind on it over stealth rock, and swap roar on heatran for stealth rock like you wanted to do initially. Despite being specially frail with a reliable recovery method skarmory is the superior choice for a phazer. I know clefable is 3hko'd according to the calc with its ev's yet yet with weather from ttar (if it stays on your team) plus getting hit 5 times in a row racking up the chance to get a crit or two it's most likely 2hko'd instead, better to be safe than sorry :)

 

[Forecalling]

You have no taunt
Atleast add whirlwind to Skarmory

 

[Ubiquitous]

Thanks to everyone above for the rates, I'll address each of them in turn:

snip

Honestly, those two really aren't a problem. As you say, Venusaur handles them both very nicely, and in a pinch I can sacrifice Gastrodon's Leftovers in exchange for Recover stalling Bisharp and trying to Scald burn it, and Conkeldurr cannot touch Clefable besides Knocking Off its Lefties.
Gastrodon's Scald and Heatran's Lava Plume both provide decent burn chances if I really need it, and Toxic is really important on Heatran to take on Charizard, so Will-o-Wisp is not a priority.
Also, Sleep Powder is unbelievably useful. Its a great weapon on the switch, because opponents don't tend to have too many team members who can actually touch Venusaur, and catching his counters on the switch means Venusaur can dominate the game.

snip

Yeah I've been wondering about Ttar. As you say, Sandstorm can be annoying to Clefable and Venusaur. It's funny you should suggest Latias as a replacement team member, since she was the member Skarm replaced. The original version of this team, before it changed to full stall, was supposed to be built around CM Latias, which was changed to defensive Defog when the style changed. However most of the time she was dead weight, the only thing she really had over Skarm was a quicker Defog. Therefore, I'm a bit skeptical over her viability. I'm considering Assault Vest Tornadus-T as a replacement, since with it makes up for the loss of Special bulk with the immunity to Ground, speed, and Regenerator. Still a little uncertain though.

Venusaur and Skarm together actually do a pretty good job against the common (STABed) EQ users in OU. Skarm hard counters Gliscor lacking Taunt, and if has Taunt it probably won't have Acrobatics, which means Venusaur can have a pop. Actually, the Ground type I really struggled with was Nidoking. It came damn close to 2HKOing Venusaur with Earth Power which is terrifying.

snip

Never played against Mega Heracross before. I have actually now put SR on Heatran and Whirlwind on Skarm, so now hopefully if I ever face one I'll be able to deal with it. Cheers!

blue text ftw

Don't really need Taunt - between Skarm's Defog (and newly added Whirlwind) and Clefable's Aromatherapy+Unaware, I have hazards, status and setup sweepers all covered, which is what Taunt is primarily used for.

I have edited the OP with the changes that I have made, made it a bit more detailed, and possibly a threat list will be on its way soon.
Thanks again everyone!

 

[stoneyesquire]

now its up to you on this but ive had decent success on a breloom with spore vs mega lucario.
full speed and attack ev's
substitute
focus punch
stone edge
spore

poison heal ability

its very different then mega venusaur, and i love the guy. but nothing hurts worse then a missed attack.

 

[MZ]

I've been running stall without spikes since the beginning of gen six, and it looks like your team is completely screwed by decently powerful boosting sweepers. I mean, unaware is good but Clefables defenses still kind of suck. Basically, the idea with your team is that a Clefable with moonblast can beat a sweeper because it doesn't have its boosts. I call BS. A strong Salamence could wreck that thing, and sweepers like Lucario often have steel or poison moves anyway. The cleric is invaluable and I currently have a Blissey for that, but Clefable didn't do me any favors. Seriously, what do you do against a special Mega Lucario (Vacuum wave/aura sphere, flash cannon, dark pulse, nasty plot)? Oh, and here's my team, although your written descriptions are far superior: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-six-stall-aka-the-rage-quitters.3494760/

 

[Ubiquitous]

I've been running stall without spikes since the beginning of gen six, and it looks like your team is completely screwed by decently powerful boosting sweepers. I mean, unaware is good but Clefables defenses still kind of suck. Basically, the idea with your team is that a Clefable with moonblast can beat a sweeper because it doesn't have its boosts. I call BS. A strong Salamence could wreck that thing, and sweepers like Lucario often have steel or poison moves anyway. The cleric is invaluable and I currently have a Blissey for that, but Clefable didn't do me any favors. Seriously, what do you do against a special Mega Lucario (Vacuum wave/aura sphere, flash cannon, dark pulse, nasty plot)? Oh, and here's my team, although your written descriptions are far superior: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-six-stall-aka-the-rage-quitters.3494760/

Haha, you're just like most players on the ladder. Underestimating Clefable is a huge mistake.

You call BS? I'll give you facts:

252+ Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 140-166 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- 92.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's assuming Adamant nature and a Life Orb. Meanwhile I can Wish off the damage, Protect stall for a bit of Leftovers recovery, and 2HKO with Moonblast whenever I feel like it. Obviously Unaware makes DD boosts useless. Also, lol sweepers carry Poison moves. No they don't.

You want more? Here, let me show you how she fares vs other dangerous boosting sweepers:

252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 107-127 (27.2 - 32.3%) -- 61.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 135-159 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- 42.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 157-186 (39.9 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Latias Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 82-97 (20.8 - 24.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Keldeo Surf vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 160-189 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-169 (36.6 - 43%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 162-192 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

These are some of the strongest boosters in OU. And all of these 3HKO's are ignoring the fact that I can Wish+Protect stall for more Leftovers. Unaware means Moonblast deals consistent damage, unaffected by Special Defence boosts. And if I managed to get off a Toxic on any of these guys earlier in the game, they have no hope. So do the calcs next time, before you underestimate my girl Clefable >:-(
(also Salamence sucks)

Mega Lucario is a pain for any stall team, mine is no different. With a bit of scouting and prediction however, it is not impossible to play around. If it comes in to revenge Heatran, Heatran can take one Aura Sphere and OHKO with Lava Plume:

252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 256-304 (66.4 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 288-342 (102.4 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Meanwhile, Venusaur and Skarmory take on SD variant:

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 89-105 (24.4 - 28.8%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO

0 Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 160-190 (56.9 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So whilst it is tough, it is not impossible to beat.

Thank you for the rate and for giving me a chance to prove the Clefable doubters wrong. I will add those calcs to the OP, to prove how amazing she is.

 

[MZ]

You misunderstand my point. Clefable can out stall these things, and wish protect gives it great survivability. My point is, you can't do anything back. Moonblast does negligible damage to most things (at least that was my experience when using my Clefable without any special attack investments). You can stop them, but not do reasonable damage in return, like hit it with a toxic. Eventually, they can get through your defenses. Just because Manaphy can't kill you, doesn't mean it can't keep coming back until it does. This goes double for hyper offensive teams with several powerful pokemon who can bash Clefable until it runs out of wishes. I fail to see what you could do against a team with one or two powerful pokemon with some cleric support if Clefable is your best way of dealing with them.

 

[Ubiquitous]

You misunderstand my point. Clefable can out stall these things, and wish protect gives it great survivability. My point is, you can't do anything back. Moonblast does negligible damage to most things (at least that was my experience when using my Clefable without any special attack investments). You can stop them, but not do reasonable damage in return, like hit it with a toxic. Eventually, they can get through your defenses. Just because Manaphy can't kill you, doesn't mean it can't keep coming back until it does. This goes double for hyper offensive teams with several powerful pokemon who can bash Clefable until it runs out of wishes. I fail to see what you could do against a team with one or two powerful pokemon with some cleric support if Clefable is your best way of dealing with them.

Ah, but you didn't say that in your first post. You stated that Clefable was too defensively weak to take on (lol) Salamence and other setup sweepers. This is a slightly more valid point. However what you fail to understand is that once these setup sweepers realise that they cannot touch Clefable, chances are they won't be coming back until lategame. If they switch back in, in comes Clefable to limit the damage and Wish it off. Plus, Moonblast is not nearly as weak as you make it out to be, and it has 24PP. If it's a one vs one against these sweepers lategame, Clefable wins. I have other methods of dealing with setup sweepers that Clefable can't handle, too - Skarmory's Whirlwind and Venusaur's Leech Seed ensure they won't be getting too many boosts.

I've also faced teams with cleric support - whilst annoying, there are ways around them. The ones I've faced are Blissey, Chansey, Clefable, Roserade and Umbreon. Blissey, Chansey and Roserade are all targetable by Tyranitar's Pursuit (though I'm currently testing Tornadus-T). Opposing Clefable are unable to touch Venusaur (I can fire off Sleep Powders to nab either the switch in or Clefable itself, which means no more healing). Umbreon can also be put to sleep to stop its healing capabilities.

As for hyper offensive teams - I do have other Pokemon? Whatever Clefable cannot handle, maybe some of the others can. It's not like Clefable is the only team member capable of taking on sweepers. Things like Bisharp that Clefable hates and has absolutely no business staying in on can be dealt with by the rest of the team.

 

[MZ]

Your points are valid, but the team still looks like even just one cleric and sweeper could go through everything. However, I'm just pointing out a problem that almost all stall teams have anyway. If you had to eliminate all stall teams that died to, for example, a mega lucario, Blissey, and maybe even a Lunar Dance or healing wish pokemon combination, I don't know that many teams would be left. Besides, most people playing hyper offense won't consider the idea of doing a pp stall on a 24 pp move in the OU, so the team should be pretty darn solid.

 

[PkMn Gravija]

Re reading those clefable calcs I think I'm going to have to use her instead of quagsire that frees up a slot for chansey or blissey, i already use clefable anyway as my cleric but desperately needed a better special wall. I'll need to tweak that ev spread tho :p

 

[Manveru123]

I think you should consider running AV Slowbro in place of Gastrodon. I do realize that this makes you weaker to voltturn, but Slowbro can mostly sponge those hits with Regenerator anyway (except Scizor's U-turn), has more offensive presence with surprise value (Fire Blasting Ferrothorns is always fun), more bulk on both sides of the spectrum, and is not so reliant on your cleric for recovery.

You might also want to consider putting Rocky Helmet on Skarm, as this helps you take care of not only Scizor but other U-Turners aswell.

 

[PkMn Gravija]

The point in using gastrodon is to halt volt turn momentum, slowbro doesn't do that. Gastrodon is an awesome member of this team I really don't think it should be changed when it comes in against rotom-w for example it forces a hard switch which means somethings getting burned/toxiced or taking dmg from a special hit, all slowbro's addition would mean is that somethings coming it to force you out and you lost any potential momentum you could of gained if u had gastrodon.

Btw I was calc testing some various clefable ev spreads and when I was testing yours I found this little gem. A perfect physical luke check, idk if you had noticed this yourself but it takes that pressure off of mega venusaur :)

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 168-200 (42.7 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

think that is worth adding to the calc list since ur return is

8 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 132-156 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

 

[Ubiquitous]

snip

AV Slowbro is undoubtedly a good choice for stall teams, but without Gastrodon this team has huge issues with VoltTurn. If the opponent's hazards are up and mine aren't (rare situation, but not impossible if the opponents' SR setter pressures Skarmory, eg Heatran) the team can't deal with the residual damage and pressure. That's why Gastro is so vital (as PkMn Gravija rightly pointed out)

snip

Perfect, thanks. I hadn't actually done that one (guess I'm also guilty of underestimating Clefable's defences... :-/ ). But you're right, it does take the pressure of Venu. Cheers!

 

[Zangold]

This looks like a really solid team. As you states, Skarmory is a little bit mediocre this Gen given defog. I recommend trying out Lando-T or Gliscor, on top of Tornadus-T over Ttar. Landorus has more offense than Skarmory could ever dream of, Intimidate, and cool things like knock off and U-Turn. Knock Off is actually really good this Gen, and your stall team would benefit from getting rid of an opponent's leftovers (or whatever) to help with residual damage like M-Venu's leech seed. It has 97.5 base power first time you use it as well, and that comes of 140 base attack. Landorus also has stealth rock. Earthquake lets it takes down things like Heatran, and easily OHKOs Volcarona without any investment. It is also a hard counter to physical Mega evolutions like Scizor and Lucario (though it can't do much to pinsir without Stone Edge). Intimidate is also amazing, giving it great all around bulk. I would use Lando-T with max HP, but you can change the other EVs to your preference. Giving attack investment lets it be a strong bulky pokemon (136+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 180-213 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) but with defense invested it becomes a premier physical wall.

Someone with many of the same traits is Gliscor, who you might want to try if you aren't fond of Lando-T (Poison Heal, 252HP, Substitute?/Roost/EQ/Filler). Gliscor can Defog, Lando cannot. Gliscor does most of the things Landorus does with Defog, but Landorus is more powerful. Depending on your preference, either seems like a good fit.

EDIT: I forgot to mention Mandibuzz. That thing doesn't freaking die. Foul Play, Roost, Defog, Brave Bird, 110/105/95 defenses. What's not to like?

Tornadus-T is a neat option to fill in for Tyranitar, and it seems you've already looked at it. Assualt Vest is an amazing fit for him, and AV with 90 special defense isn't too bad. Tornadus-T is great with a set of U-Turn, Air Slash, Heat Wave, and Knock Off. Knock Off on a fast pokemon like Tornadus-T works wonders, and its a strong move. Air Slash is STAB, and Heat Wave decimates Scizor, Lucario, and Breloom, to name a few. U-Turn works great in conjuction with regenerator.

If you end up going with Tornadus-T over Tyranitar then I'd go with Gliscor since he has Defog, but if not, the decision is a bit more even. Gliscor does everything Skarmory can and more, while Landorus-T gives you someone bulky who can hit hard. I hope you find this helpful. Good Luck!

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Landorus-I seems like a big threat as it's capable of 2HKO'ing everything on your team. I personally don't find it all that common (which it should be, it's one of the biggest threats atm) but it appears on the occasional DeoGar hyper offense. Those kind of teams look threatening as well, as Bisharp has a field day once Mega Venusaur bites the dust. If you don't like Skarmory you can try bulky Zapdos who counters Mega Pinsir still but also gives you some more coverage and has a good matchup vs fellow Defoggers Mandibuzz and Skarm, as well as SR users like Excadrill and Ferrothorn should you run Heat Wave.

 

[PkMn Gravija]

I think you should swap T-tar out for Chansey or Blissey if you fear the knock off too much, it would give u a premier special wall as well as it helps alleviate building pressure on clefable to keep the team alive (not saying she can't but she appreciates the support). If you do this I suggest taking aromatherapy off clefable and replace it with knock off therefore you don't really lose the utility that ttar brings to this team which is breaking down other stall teams, as well as it gives you a way of knocking off pesky LO's that turn some moves from possible 3hko's into 2hko's on clefable. Personally I recommend Chansey though with eviolite which is

Chansey /w Eviolite
252 hp, 248 def, 8 sp def /w bold/impish nature
Heal Bell, Wish, Soft-Boiled, Seismic Toss

She'll help you more with a few strong special attackers as well as taking pressure off clefable which you'll notice she'll thank you for. Keep wish on Clefable too just in case you find you can't always pass it with Chansey.

 

[Ubiquitous]

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I was actually considering Gliscor for this team, until I realised that Defog and Poison Heal are illegal together, and that Clefable's Aromatherapy would screw with him anyways. It's a shame, because he is a great defensive 'mon. Lando-T, as you say, is unable to Defog and that rules him out for me, because Defog is essential.

Mandibuzz is a great Defogger, but again, is incapable of countering Mega Pinsir which is the reason Skarm is there in the first place.

I've actually been trying the Tornadus-T set from Ajwf's pretty famous stall team Daunting Dreadnoughts (took the set straight from there, check it out if you haven't already because it's a great team: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stall-daunting-dreadnoughts-come-celebrate.3492583/) It surprisingly does a decent job of replacing Tyranitar as the anti-cleric member of the team, because it can Knock Off Chansey's Eviolite / Blissey's Leftovers or straight up surprise them with a max attack Superpower. I haven't played that many games with it yet and I may still tweak the EV spread to suit the team more, but it's pretty good.

snip

I've been incredibly surprised by the lack of Landorus-I on the ladder, actually. Maybe people think it's going to be kicked upstairs eventually and just aren't bothering... :-S. If it comes up, it's definitely a problem for the team as it is - however, I am currently testing AV Tornadus-T>Ttar at the moment and he can outspeed and Knock Off Lando's Life Orb, which significantly lowers the amount of damage it can do, whilst being 3HKOed at best.

I really like the idea of having Zapdos, but my issue is his four moveslot syndrome. Ideally, he wants Defog, Roost, Roar, Toxic, Thunderbolt, Heat Wave, and a Hidden Power, but can pick only four. Also losing Skarm means I have to rely on Tornadus-T to handle opposing Mega Venusaur, since nothing else on the team can touch it. It's a tough pick. I think I will test Zapdos>Skarm with various movesets and see what works best, and then update.

snip

Thanks again for more useful advice. I might try this out, but my last slot is really meant to be dedicated to an anti-cleric team member who can remove an opponent's healer. Chansey has far superior defensive utility but I like having just a little muscle on my stall teams to push through a couple of defensive Pokes in general.


Thank you all for the rates guys, I'll be updating the team soon with my changes :-)

 

[PkMn Gravija]

If you're bothered by opposing clerics my suggestion (knock off on clefable) + the addition of taunt on heatran over protect makes all clerics useless, the initial knock off of their item cripples them and with taunt you prevent them for ever being able to do cleric'y things, I use the same heatran set and it completely negates clerics usefulness. It forces a hard switch or an inevitable death and in stall v stall just firing off a taunt onto any switch in cripples their movesets.

 

[Zangold]

Is Mandibuzz really incapable of stopping Mega Pinsir? It's only 2HKO'd by a +2 Return (+2 252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 230-271 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, survives a crit though), while Close Combat has a 50/50 chance to do so. While this isn't all that encouraging, and Skarmory is a little bulkier physically- Mandibuzz can do something Skarmory couldn't dream of- OHKOing Mega Pinsir. Mandibuzz Foul Play to a +2 Mega Pinsir: +2 4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pinsir: 303-357 (111.3 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO. That means you can come in one the Mega Evolution, take a boosted hit and OHKO back. I didn't know Gliscor's Defog+Posion Heal is incompatible, which stinks, but Mandibuzz is very solid. It may not be able to take as many attacks as skarmory can, but Foul Play more than makes up for it, along with Mandibuzz's significantly better special bulk. Also, speaking of Landorus: 252 Atk Life Orb Landorus Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 192-229 (45.2 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Special sets cant touch it bar the unreliable Focus Blast. Mandibuzz also counters Mega Venusaur, which takes pressure of Tornadus-T. Other than Foul Play there's Roost, Defog, and the last slot could be delegated to either Toxic, Knock Off, or Whirlwind. Mandibuzz may be less effective against Fairies and Dragons, but it still tanks a hit and retaliates hard against boosted MegaZard Xs. It does have a clutch Ghost resistance though.

Also: +2 252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Tornadus-T: 174-205 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Air Slash, Hurricane, and Heat Wave all OHKO.