Game Freak hit with another hack, info leaking

[Jeffers]

I get so sick of Game Freak apologetics. Some people talk as if no studio has ever had to handle challenging development before. As if no studio has ever had to shift to a new platform, or switch to 3D.

The truth is Game Freak is uniquely privileged and advantaged, holds a status that most other developers would kill for, and still fumbles the ball.

Despite the way some big names at the company may talk and act in interviews, and despite what they may like to believe about their company and themselves, and whatever internal culture they think they are trying to maintain, they are not some small, struggling indie developer that has to push out a game no matter what to keep the lights on. They are no longer the small group of hobbyists for whom even putting out a finished product is a minor miracle.

They are (say it with me now, you all know the words) the developers of the highest grossing media franchise on Earth. Not just game franchise. All of media. More money than Disney.

We cannot tolerate these excuses. You don't even need to know a single thing about game development to see the problems.

They have the resources to buy whatever tools they need, hire any talent to deliver whatever skills they may be lacking and take the pressure off of their development team, and release the games in any timeframe they please. Pokémon is not going broke because they didn't put out a game this year.

At this point, defenders usually engage in accountability pass the parcel, resulting in an endless loop that means it's no one's fault. Pokémon games just manifest from the ether malformed, and no one can change or fix anything to improve the situation.

"You can't blame the developers. They are very talented and doing the best they can in the meagre time provided. It's Game Freak management's fault."
"Management are beholden to [other company]'s (The Pokémon Company/Creatures/Nintendo, etc.) schedule, and don't get the money and resources from the other parts of the franchise. It's their fault."
"Nintendo et. al don't make the games. It's Game Freak's fault."

Round and round the bickering goes. Part of me thinks splitting ownership of Pokémon between multiple companies is not only a financial decision, but also a PR one to ensure that no one company can ever be pinned down and blamed for their problems.

At the end of the day, whoever is responsible for these decisions (and it is somebody) the games suffer as a result. When challenges like a change in platform come up, they need to be prepared to put time, talent and resources into development to ensure that the issues are handled correctly.

We can't just shrug and say "game dev hard" and all sins are forgiven and the games are pretty good, actually, all things considered... They are banking on that good will. It's why this keeps coming up with every new Pokémon game release.

It is their job to develop a quality game. In spite of the challenges. And if they can't do that, they shouldn't charge their customers full price for a buggy, unfinished game.

And customers shouldn't buy it twice!

 

[Esserise]

They are (say it with me now, you all know the words) the developers of the highest grossing media franchise on Earth. Not just game franchise. All of media. More money than Disney.

Not to contend with the fact that Pokémon is lucrative as shit, because it obviously is, but I have to quibble with this particular quote about it being the “highest grossing media franchise.” It gets bandied about a lot, but it’s actually pretty dubious. The only real origin for it is one Wikipedia article that’s weirdly micromanaged by a specific editor whose sourcing methods are pretty haphazard.

That doesn’t really counter anything else you’re saying — that quote is just a pet peeve of mine.

 

[Jeffers]

Not to contend with the fact that Pokémon is lucrative as shit, because it obviously is, but I have to quibble with this particular quote about it being the “highest grossing media franchise.” It gets bandied about a lot, but it’s actually pretty dubious. The only real origin for it is one Wikipedia article that’s weirdly micromanaged by a specific editor whose sourcing methods are pretty haphazard.

That doesn’t really counter anything else you’re saying — that quote is just a pet peeve of mine.

Fair criticism. It may well be erroneous and poorly sourced. That might actually be something I or someone else should look into further and investigate that claim. I should look into it more before I brandish it in discussion, to be sure.

These things are often difficult to track at the best of times. Companies are thrilled to tout profits and sales numbers when they look good, but cagey when things don't perform well.

One place they cannot lie without a whole host of legal repercussions is during stockholder meetings. If those figures come from there and can be collated in a way that can be contrasted against other franchises, I would reasonably accept that it is actually the highest grossing franchise.

But as you say, the point still stands. Whether is is the highest grossing media franchise or not, it is definitely a multimedia giant. They absolutely cannot claim poverty or lack of resources as an excuse for their problems.

 

[Bakugames]

I think the issue is theres a fundamental difference between shareholders, investors, and higher ups of a company and like. the average worker developing this game, which usually get the brunt of the blame for anything bad about these games while being the people with least power to do anything about it. No matter Which Company is emitting the deadlines, the deadlines exist either way. The company can be as lucrative as it is, the workers receive the budget and have to work within those bounds.

Honestly the workers could do anything and id defend them. they could not work for 2 years and then just copy paste the old game and send it and i'd be like lol based. i think the higher ups of these three companies are all worthless leeches and pokemon would have better games if they didnt exist

 

[Jeffers]

I think the issue is theres a fundamental difference between shareholders, investors, and higher ups of a company and like. the average worker developing this game, which usually get the brunt of the blame for anything bad about these games while being the people with least power to do anything about it. No matter Which Company is emitting the deadlines, the deadlines exist either way. The company can be as lucrative as it is, the workers receive the budget and have to work within those bounds.

Honestly the workers could do anything and id defend them. they could not work for 2 years and then just copy paste the old game and send it and i'd be like lol based. i think the higher ups of these three companies are all worthless leeches and pokemon would have better games if they didnt exist

I am absolutely in favour of Game Freak employees receiving all the time, financial compensation and all other benefits and support needed to deliver quality games without being overworked or otherwise abused.

I don't think you will find anyone in favour of abusing the little people at these companies.

So can we please move on from this as if it's a point anyone is making (besides possibly Pokémon shareholders). This is part of the accountability merry-go-round that I was talking about.

Whoever is making the decision, whoever the buck ultimately stops with, be they Nintendo, Game Freak, a secret cabal of lizard people living under Tokyo... it doesn't matter. I want them to do whatever is necessary to make good games without exploiting employees. Because at the moment we have the worst of both worlds.

 

[Bakugames]

So can we please move on from this as if it's a point anyone is making

but people make this point all the time. from calling them lazy, stupid, worthless, dreaming of another dev team taking the games, the devs are absolutely the big scapegoat of the pokemon fandom. no one gives a shit about the tcp ceo or the gamefreak ceo or nintendo in general when they talk about the pokemon games, but they will talk about masuda and ohmori, the former which received death threats about pokemon before.

even when they say stuff like "tpc/gamefreak is lazy" its pretty obvious that they are talking about the developers. hell, the same "most profitable franchise on earth" is used against the devs, as if they have access to every single cent that pokemon has made and are just too stupid to use it properly.

 

[Jeffers]

but people make this point all the time. from calling them lazy, stupid, worthless, dreaming of another dev team taking the games, the devs are absolutely the big scapegoat of the pokemon fandom. no one gives a shit about the tcp ceo or the gamefreak ceo or nintendo in general when they talk about the pokemon games, but they will talk about masuda and ohmori, the former which received death threats about pokemon before.

even when they say stuff like "tpc/gamefreak is lazy" its pretty obvious that they are talking about the developers. hell, the same "most profitable franchise on earth" is used against the devs, as if they have access to every single cent that pokemon has made and are just too stupid to use it properly.

That is fascinating. I am not denying that you have experienced this, but my experience has been the exact opposite.

Any time I bring up any criticism of Game Freak, I am immediately met with wails of "think of the poor, overworked, abused devs, you cannot say a word against them." I am constantly having to clarify to the point of frustration that my criticism is of the games and the management who clearly deny the developers the time and resources to make the games properly.

I suppose every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Perhaps we are both invoking the wrath of different parts of the audience.

In criticising the games, I am perceived to be unfairly attacking the developers. In defending developers, you are perceived to be defending the games and denying their issues, using the devs as a shield.

I suppose that is part of the reason fans of any franchise are always viewed as being indecisive and never happy. You will always be upsetting some part of the fanbase whatever you say, and every position receives pushback.

It is a shame. Perhaps we have different priorities and perspectives about the franchise, but we seem to largely agree on the issues and potential solutions. Yet our perception of the community and its behaviour are polar opposites.

 

[Bakugames]

It is a shame. Perhaps we have different priorities and perspectives about the franchise, but we seem to largely agree on the issues and potential solutions. Yet our perception of the community and its behaviour are polar opposites.

Honestly, I think both exist at the same time, the fandom is just reaaaally big and its very easy to fall in bubbles that don't overlap at all, despite being all made of fans of the same franchise. Some people are virulent about devs, others are virulent about their favorite franchise lol. Its hard to say that x or y argument is something no one says because of that yknow.

I don't talk much about my views on how the franchise improving, less because im not a critic (never ask a lemmy bakugames her opinions on PLA and SV !! ) but more so because it feels so unattainable and out of consumers reach it makes me sad lol. Yeah i want better exploration and a more whimsical visual dev and more story and content, but theres nothing i can do to get it. I already didnt have the purchasing power to be a consumer, so its not like i can "boycott" it in the first place, so im just here hoping the companies implode or something i guess

 

[Jeffers]

I don't talk much about my views on how the franchise improving, less because im not a critic (never ask a lemmy bakugames her opinions on PLA and SV !! ) but more so because it feels so unattainable and out of consumers reach it makes me sad lol. Yeah i want better exploration and a more whimsical visual dev and more story and content, but theres nothing i can do to get it. I already didnt have the purchasing power to be a consumer, so its not like i can "boycott" it in the first place, so im just here hoping the companies implode or something i guess

I disagree with you there. Even if you are not buying their games or "voting with your wallet" or whatever, talking about these issues is one way to work to improve these issues in a small way.

Yes, Scarlet and Violet might be some of the most successful games in the franchise despite all of their issues, and it can seem like the people voicing their concerns and calling for change are a small minority, and the people in charge of this franchise have a blank cheque to continue doing exactly what they've been doing...

And yet we can all make a difference. Talking to people, family and friends, people on the internet, commentators and influencers, can make them aware of these issues. It can give them cause to voice their own concerns and maybe rethink their future purchases.

And if there is one thing managers and business executives do pay attention to other than profits and sales, it's bad press. SV may have made a lot of money, but they also very publicly exposed the quality issues in the Pokémon franchise during their launch. Even the normies took notice and made fun of the games.

Furthermore, most casual fans of a property do not tend to make a lot of noise and a dramatic exit. They simply leave. They go and purchase something else. It may not be reflected in SV's sales, but maybe the next game takes a hit. Or the one after that. Cumulative failures add up eventually. Pede poena claudo. Good will and brand recognition cannot carry a franchise forever.

I would not be discussing these issues if I thought there were no chance of rectifying things. Of righting the ship. I would simply leave, too.

It may take some time, but the more people take the time to discuss their concerns honestly and the more good faith criticism is made, eventually even the most devout shills will not be able to brush aside the complaints and calls for change.

And hopefully we can reach a place where everyone has cause to be more optimistic about the way Game Freak handle their franchise and their employees.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I'm genuinely curious what the budget of new Pokemon games is. Like yeah, the franchise as a whole makes a bazillion dollars, but how much of that is actually being funneled back into making new games? It's been occasionally said that the Pokemon devs often act as if they're still a small indie team, and it's possible they intentionally give themselves the budget to match.

 

[Bakugames]

It may take some time, but the more people take the time to discuss their concerns honestly and the more good faith criticism is made, eventually even the most devout shills will not be able to brush aside the complaints and calls for change.

I might just be cynical, but idk, i feel like complaints are not actually enough to get something better outta the games. We can complain and criticize all we want, but the median consumer of this franchise has been pretty satisfied with the games until now. you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink, and you cant make people agree with your criticisms or the state of the franchise if they dont want to, and are fine with the new stuff.

sv performance is bad, which has been the main thing that broke from just a small bubble of complaints to an issue thats more widespread, but what happens when they fix that? then the average consumer is gonna say thank you and keep buying the games.

not only that, but theres an extra issue where the games are probably the least important part of this entire machine. its still good when they are successful, but their main importance is to create new merch opportunities to every other part of the franchise, and many clients arent actually engaged with the games in the first place, their quality is not something they care for

pokemon needs an extremely bad pr scandal, but it also just needs to be restructured for it to ever improve imo

 

[Jeffers]

I might just be cynical, but idk, i feel like complaints are not actually enough to get something better outta the games. We can complain and criticize all we want, but the median consumer of this franchise has been pretty satisfied with the games until now. you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink, and you cant make people agree with your criticisms or the state of the franchise if they dont want to, and are fine with the new stuff.

That may be true in individual cases, but it all adds up. Your average, uninformed consumer may not pick up on the broader discussion, but they will know when a game sucks, especially if it was worse than the previous version they enjoyed. And if the next one sucks, they will notice the pattern and simply stop buying.

If nothing is done to change the situation and the games are released in the same state with the same problems, we might not see the decline for Z-A, or even gen 10. But eventually the cumulative effect of all of all these former customers dropping the franchise will take its toll, and all the various Pokémon companies will be scrambling to figure out why gen 11 failed. But the issues and the discussions about them began here, or even further back. Hopefully they will recognise that in retrospect.

pokemon needs an extremely bad pr scandal, but it also just needs to be restructured for it to ever improve imo

There is probably some degree of truth to that. But SV may have already been that scandal. I had hoped that Z-A's delay had been in part due to a recognition that the games needed more time and that a yearly release cycle was not possible (at least if Game Freak are the only studio developing them).

Given the content of the leaks that have occured over the past few months, I am inclined to believe that may not be the case, and we are getting a similar quality of game, just slower.

But if Z-A is just as controversial, or even flops, we may have the very PR scandal you mentioned on our hands.

 

[XYZ15]

I might just be cynical, but idk, i feel like complaints are not actually enough to get something better outta the games.
not only that, but theres an extra issue where the games are probably the least important part of this entire machine.

There's some evidence that would support the opposite: GF actually cares about feedback despite everything the hardcore fanbase thinks. Just look at the main criticism about SwSh apart from Dexit and graphics: SV's story was actually one of the best we ever got. They always tried to pay attention and be aware of what the fanbase is saying. The thing is, they don't manage to improve these things so often because of the low budget and time devs are given.

Personally, this is a hot take but I'd rather have a broken game with charming characters, story and worldbuilding than a soulless game like SwSh, and that's why I'm confident GF is going in the right track this time around. They just need to fix bugs and graphics, which they'll be already doing by now, and every fan will get what they want with a new Pokémon game.

Now call me naïve or whatever, but I do think there are reasons to be optimistic regarding this series and despite all the hate, as longer developments are a thing now.

Extra point: the fact that games are still what introduces all the new Pokémon, mechanics and stuff, in addition to recent statements made by GF themselves, tells us that the main games (which by the eay are selling better than ever since Gen 1) are still the main focus of the franchise and its core.

 

[Just A Seaking]

Do we even know the budget that GF gets to work with? I'm not familiar with game development at all, and I don't know if these numbers are already out there or anything, but I don't see any particular reason to believe that GF is working with a shoestring budget. I'm sure that TPC, Nintendo, and GF themselves try to minimize costs where they can, but I don't necessarily think that means they've got nothing to work with. There's only so much money you can throw at a studio to fix a problem when there's other factors at play, and I wouldn't be surprised if poor work factors/crunch culture are moreso the problem, especially with the hectic release cycle that TPC operates on.

Speaking for myself, I lean towards slight optimism going forward knowing that ZA got delayed by a year, but it's hard to say what the franchise's future looks like from a layman's standpoint.

 

[XYZ15]

Do we even know the budget that GF gets to work with? I'm not familiar with game development at all, and I don't know if these numbers are already out there or anything, but I don't see any particular reason to believe that GF is working with a shoestring budget. I'm sure that TPC, Nintendo, and GF themselves try to minimize costs where they can, but I don't necessarily think that means they've got nothing to work with. There's only so much money you can throw at a studio to fix a problem when there's other factors at play, and I wouldn't be surprised if poor work factors/crunch culture are moreso the problem, especially with the hectic release cycle that TPC operates on.

Speaking for myself, I lean towards slight optimism going forward knowing that ZA got delayed by a yea

Honestly, you don't need to be a game designer or a producer to know that the more development time the game has, the more money is spent on it. Same happens with the staff: the more people involved in the game, the more expensive it is to create. We know GF doesn't have many personel and the short dev time compared to every other AAA or AA from this generation (which tends to be 4-5 years), so it's safe to assume they didn't spend as much money as other games.

With all that said, though, you have a point. Toby Fox's compositions, Ed Sheeran's collab and related merchandising, plus all the attention GF always pays to the designs and art direction for SV can't have been precisely cheap. They musn't have been in SwSh either, where the art was even more important.

Also, regarding the crunch stuff you said, and as many have already pointed out in this thread and many other places around, it is well known that GF lacks a good programing/coding team and that, along with the pandemic mayhem, didn't help too much.

 

[Mad Ram]

I already posted on this stuff before, so I'm gonna put as much mental energy in it as it deserves.

Shamelessly self plagiarized from this very thread

• no clue what may actually be wrong except on the surface level, and will take whatever is wrong as a personal attack
• "this game sucks, and you suck for liking it."
• echo chambers and fan narratives that often go unchecked because they are repeated so often, and you get fandoms that can be wildly off base on facts but still cling to them dogmatically no matter how many times you individually correct people.
• devs are literally Satan and killed their grandma because they didn't manage the game correctly
• gamer culture is often very conspiratorial, as with much of internet culture, assuming that large institutions want to personally hurt them individually, subbing in the appropriate boogeyman according to their own ideology and neuroses, rather than try to understand the complex array of individual interactions and greater forces at work.
• "Lol Gamefreak's incompetent" mindset comes from people misinterpreting, or being misinformed on, the development of Gens 1 and 2 and then interpolating those issues as to why there were so many issues development wise to the games Gen 6 and onward
• seen from these leaks that some of the examples we thought were just lazy game design or incompetence turned out to be due to strict deadlines or deliberate design choices
• Doesn't excuse the failings, but they make more sense than just apathy
• In the end you wind up with large numbers of people who have no understanding of the facts, are easily influenced by people with no more understanding than they are, have no clue what may actually be wrong except on the surface level, and will take whatever is wrong as a personal attack. Of course this resulted in the absolutely toxic response to dexit that came about. It's not even the only time this has happened. From scapegoating Genwunners for literally everything they don't like in the franchise to the entirety of the Palworld nonsense, this pattern has played out time and time again. And frankly, nothing I've really seen will stop this until people as a whole realize how silly it is, but that won't happen for some time. Not only because I don't think people really will break with the factors that cause it, but also more new people will come into fandoms who fall for the exact same thing.
• "Thankfully, gamers were never wrong again."

No, Gamefreak isn't the same indy company it was back in Gen 1. Yeah, there are real issues. But at the same time, replacing trying to understand why these issues happen with a dumb reductive "they attacked gamers" tier understanding is not doing anything either. In the end, it's just a game. It's not worth raging out over. You don't have to be happy, but without understanding what is actually wrong, there is almost no likelihood of things actually getting fixed. No, this isn't just a Gamefreak problem, and if anything seems to be endemic to yearly franchise games, and even then it's happening more to just generally big titles.

 

[Jeffers]

No, this isn't just a Gamefreak problem, and if anything seems to be endemic to yearly franchise games, and even then it's happening more to just generally big titles.

AAA in general has been in a terrible spot for years, and Pokémon has some issues in common with the larger industry. But some issues are more specific to Game Freak and the origins of which are observable in their earlier titles.

And again, Game Freak is uniquely privileged in the industry. No other studio could get away with releasing the same game twice and have fans buy both. And then they release version specific DLC on top of that the fans also buy twice.

But if Game Freak is going to share in the AAA's problems, why not also look at some of their solutions? One thing I think could really benefit Pokémon would be taking advantage of other studios within Nintendo (first or second party) and let them develop some of the games. A lot of AAA franchises use multiple studios to facilitate yearly releases.

If we have to have yearly releases, why not let other developers have a crack at the franchise and let Game Freak have an extra year or two to work on their next title? (Could you imagine what a Pokémon game made by Monolith Soft might look like, for example? I think they might be a good fit for another Legends game.)

The answer, I fear, is that Game Freak are probably afraid another studio might highlight the problems with the franchise and their products, and loosen their grip on the property. I can understand why they would so jealously guard their flagship series that made them a household name, but the current model is not sustainable.

But we have to do more than just shrug our shoulders and say, "gaming and the gaming industry is just inherently bad, I guess."

 

[Magcargo]

There's some evidence that would support the opposite: GF actually cares about feedback despite everything the hardcore fanbase thinks. Just look at the main criticism about SwSh apart from Dexit and graphics: SV's story was actually one of the best we ever got. They always tried to pay attention and be aware of what the fanbase is saying. The thing is, they don't manage to improve these things so often because of the low budget and time devs are given.

Personally, this is a hot take but I'd rather have a broken game with charming characters, story and worldbuilding than a soulless game like SwSh, and that's why I'm confident GF is going in the right track this time around. They just need to fix bugs and graphics, which they'll be already doing by now, and every fan will get what they want with a new Pokémon game.

Now call me naïve or whatever, but I do think there are reasons to be optimistic regarding this series and despite all the hate, as longer developments are a thing now.

Extra point: the fact that games are still what introduces all the new Pokémon, mechanics and stuff, in addition to recent statements made by GF themselves, tells us that the main games (which by the eay are selling better than ever since Gen 1) are still the main focus of the franchise and its core.

Yeah there are a lot of areas where I feel this is the case with SV specifically. Some notable complaints I saw with Sword and Shield were that the models lacked detail, the game wasn't fully open world, traversing was still annoying, and the Pokemon weren't scaled properly. A lot of players wanted "breathe of the wild, but Pokemon". And in a lot of ways, I think SV tried to achieve that with its traversal systems (both gliding and climbing, key features of Breathe of the Wild, are in the game), on top of addressing the issues players had with Sword and Shield like the models not being scaled, and lacking detail, making the open world more expansive, etc. Another area was the raids. A big issue in SS was that the raids needed everyone to select their moves, making them tedious. The raids now being asynchronous makes them much more snappy, so you aren't spending minutes waiting for others to select their moves. Are a lot of these new systems perfect? Fuck no, but it shows the dev team were willing to listen to feedback / complaints.

I think the issue with Scarlet and Violet was mainly just its launch date. Why was the game released in 2022 when the switch got another game in Legends Arceus? I feel like it would have been wiser for Gamefreak to just make DLC for that game while delaying SV to 2023. I do understand why they didn't do this to an extent - a lot of the mons need a decent amount of time to start developing a following, and I feel the following for most of the SV mons has already been extremely great, partially because they were released in 2022 and not 2023. But I feel things would have been fine if they just released the game April-2023 to coincide with the anime. I don't think this game would be nearly as maligned if it just didn't have all these technical hicups.

I don't really vibe with the explanation of "throwing more devs" at it since more devs doesn't make the workload easier. Devs need to get caught up with all the processes for the first 3 months + to my knowledge, jr devs struggled heavily during the WFH era (according to bosses, I can't speak personally). IDK, I personally don't think bigger dev team correlates to better product.

I also don't really blame the devs, I just blame whatever team was in charge with the timeline (product prob) for mismanaging the schedule / overestimating what could get done.

 

[Mad Ram]

If we have to have yearly releases, why not let other developers have a crack at the franchise and let Game Freak have an extra year or two to work on their next title? (Could you imagine what a Pokémon game made by Monolith Soft might look like, for example? I think they might be a good fit for another Legends game.)

They did that though with ILCA. People then blamed them for how BDSP turned out despite the actual reason was they were rushed jobs pushed out because Game Freak was scared of the negative fan reaction they were getting L:A instead of actual remakes, unneeded caution as it turns out. I wouldn't be opposed to more companies working on Pokémon mainline games, and that would help with some of the production issues. From what I understand, they are still working with ILCA, and if given actual time and more creative freedom it would be worth seeing if they could create something good. They also don't seem to have reservations working with bigger companies as Pokken has shown, so they could always work with a bigger player for a more mainline game if they wanted.

Also, the fuck you on about with Game Freak being afraid of losing their grip on the property? They own just about a third of the franchise, the same as Creatures and slightly lower than Nintendo, and part of the Gear project was about doing things that specifically weren't Pokémon. Unless Nintendo forces them to give up shares, something I could only see if there was a truly massive disaster on Game Freak's end, they are in no danger of losing control of the franchise. They might be strict on creative control, but part of that is just the nature of the beast with huge IPs in addition to the fear of fan backlash.

I'm also not with the school of thought that thinks gaming and the industry is inherently bad, predatory, etc. I think that sort of thought is part of the more conspiratorial gamer culture that I am very wary of. At the same time, I understand there are bad trends in the industry that really should be dealt with and are responsible for more bad games than people realize. In the end these problems come from a team which is more than likely using dev cycles more suited for the DS or GBA era but kept on longer than they should have because with their successes they saw no reason to change (something that should be very familiar when compared to other high profile failures such as Anthem, Suicide Squad, and Cyberpunk 2077) and a franchise that encourages a game coming out every year. The point isn't to say things suck and there's no point in complaining. The point is to try and focus on the actual issues, management and development schedules, rather than memes.

 

[Jeffers]

They did that though with ILCA. People then blamed them for how BDSP turned out despite the actual reason was they were rushed jobs pushed out because Game Freak was scared of the negative fan reaction they were getting L:A instead of actual remakes, unneeded caution as it turns out.

Both can be true at once. ILCA can be a bad choice for a developer, given that they had never actually developed a game before, and they can also be rushed and put under unreasonable pressure.

Just because it failed with one studio it doesn't mean another couldn't do a better job.

Also, the fuck you on about with Game Freak being afraid of losing their grip on the property? They own just about a third of the franchise, the same as Creatures and slightly lower than Nintendo, and part of the Gear project was about doing things that specifically weren't Pokémon. Unless Nintendo forces them to give up shares, something I could only see if there was a truly massive disaster on Game Freak's end, they are in no danger of losing control of the franchise. They might be strict on creative control, but part of that is just the nature of the beast with huge IPs in addition to the fear of fan backlash.

I am well aware that Game Freak have partial ownership of the franchise.

But if another studio makes a Pokémon game and it is so much better received by the fans than the current Game Freak efforts, they are still going to lose a lot of pull and influence with the other stakeholders, not to mention the fanbase.

What good is legal ownership if no one has any faith in their ability to make a good Pokémon game and would rather the other studio does it. If they stubbornly insist on developing the games themselves, other stakeholders and the fanbase would turn against them. They would retain legal rights but lose control.

In the end these problems come from a team which is more than likely using dev cycles more suited for the DS or GBA era but kept on longer than they should have because with their successes they saw no reason to change (something that should be very familiar when compared to other high profile failures such as Anthem, Suicide Squad, and Cyberpunk 2077) and a franchise that encourages a game coming out every year.

We largely agree here, it seems.

The point is to try and focus on the actual issues, management and development schedules, rather than memes.

My sentiment exactly.

 

[Blanca Weiss]

There's some evidence that would support the opposite: GF actually cares about feedback despite everything the hardcore fanbase thinks. Just look at the main criticism about SwSh apart from Dexit and graphics: SV's story was actually one of the best we ever got. They always tried to pay attention and be aware of what the fanbase is saying. The thing is, they don't manage to improve these things so often because of the low budget and time devs are given.

Personally, this is a hot take but I'd rather have a broken game with charming characters, story and worldbuilding than a soulless game like SwSh, and that's why I'm confident GF is going in the right track this time around. They just need to fix bugs and graphics, which they'll be already doing by now, and every fan will get what they want with a new Pokémon game.

I would say i agree with this even if i dislike both of them. I find it intresting that both games have contrasting flaws with each other. SwSh essentialy embodies the worst aspects of the 3ds games with few redeeming features. It has extreme linearity with the region literally being a , the fewest routes of the main series and even fewer dungeons with little to no branching pathways. I find the story being the worst of the main games with most of the game spent on nothing but getting badges before a sudden suprise plot moment at the end with little build up and a post game even more barren than the 3ds games. The characters also leave a lot to be desired with many of them being underutillized with too few appearances and/or being incredibly annoying and showing up too often. In contrast most of the problems of SV is its bugs and glitches but they do have other things such as Paldea as a region mostly consist of empty fields and forgetable towns with no interiors as well as half hearted open world with its lack of level scaling.

 

[BIG ASHLEY]

I find the story being the worst of the main games with most of the game spent on nothing but getting badges before a sudden suprise plot moment at the end with little build up

it's a shame bc a game focused on the gym challenge/pokemon-battles-as-a-major-sport (in-universe) aspect sounds really cool but by all accounts they really ruined their chance to do that. sad!

 

[Bakugames]

Paldea would have been so fucking good if it weren't open world, and I wish they'd abandon trying to do that. You dont even have to lose the non linear aspect of the games for it. gamefreak if you ever read this stop making open world games

 

[pika pal]

I think the issue with Scarlet and Violet was mainly just its launch date. Why was the game released in 2022 when the switch got another game in Legends Arceus? I feel like it would have been wiser for Gamefreak to just make DLC for that game while delaying SV to 2023. I do understand why they didn't do this to an extent - a lot of the mons need a decent amount of time to start developing a following, and I feel the following for most of the SV mons has already been extremely great, partially because they were released in 2022 and not 2023. But I feel things would have been fine if they just released the game April-2023 to coincide with the anime. I don't think this game would be nearly as maligned if it just didn't have all these technical hicups.

I think the issue with LA is that it was a single player focused game with new Pokemon. SV might have been 2022 because TPC/Gamefreak/both wanted to keep a Holiday release, but also didn't want another year of VGC on SwSh with people awaiting the Hisuian Mons/Forms to use against each other (both popularity and the couple that did have relevant niches like Ursaluna and Enamorus).

Legends Arceus obviously sold well but there's no denying that Pokemon is much bigger than those who just play the games, so the chance to get every new Mon on a World stage ASAP sounds like a believable goal to develop a following as quickly and as largely as possible.

 

[Jeffers]

Paldea would have been so fucking good if it weren't open world, and I wish they'd abandon trying to do that. You dont even have to lose the non linear aspect of the games for it. gamefreak if you ever read this stop making open world games

Open world isn't inherently bad.

I was frustrated when every game seemed to be going sandbox a few years ago, but that was mostly because it followed the same model of plonking what was otherwise a linear story across a mostly empty map, with little collectibles cynically strewn about to fill the gameplay time.

But if it is implemented with care and attention to detail, and an understanding of how moving from linear to open world changes a game and its design, it can be done well.

The problem is Game Freak did not take that care, either because they did not have the time or the experience in designing for an open world game, probably both.

They took a linear progression and put it on an open world map. Yes, you can fight the gyms out of order, but there is little reason to, because if you do beat the higher level gyms first (however fun that challenge may be) the early gyms become tedious busy work because you are massively overlevelled.

The gyms needed to be level scaled. They should have done what they showed gym leaders doing in the manga: selecting a number and level of Pokémon for you to fight based on the number of badges you have collected. If it's your first badge, maybe they only have two Pokémon at low level. But if you have seven badges, maybe you have to fight four (or even five or, dare we dream, a full team of Pokémon) at higher levels.

I think Pokémon trainers should probably have been wondering enemies that challenge you when they spot you. I missed most of them during my playthrough, not because I was avoiding them, but because in taking my own route through the world, I never crossed paths with them.

Mind you, the game chugs with Pokémon wondering around. Trainers might have crashed it.

Which brings me on to the elephant in the room when it comes to open world design in Pokémon: the performance.

Even in the 2D era Pokémon games had performance issues, but it really became apparent in gen 6 and the 3D era. Any more than 2 Pokémon on screen in battle would tank the framerate.

But up until gen 8, they maintained linear areas with a set camera angle and limited exploration. The games still chugged at times, and the wild area highlighted the potential problems with a Pokémon open world game. PLA dabbled with a pseudo-open world (technically multiple wild areas in function) and again highlighted a lot of the challenges Game Freak would face with a Pokémon open world with its own performance issues and ugly, low resolution textures and environments.

But when they finally made the jump and made gen 9 open world, the problems were plainly visible for all to see. Whether it was lack of talent, resources, experience, time, or all of the above, Game Freak could not deliver a quality open world experience.

But again, that doesn't mean it can't be done. Only that this wasn't the way to do it.

Honestly I think Game Freak would be better suited making linear 2D games again, like the Pokémon games of old. It's what they made their name doing and up until gen 5 they were getting better and better at doing it.

But now the normies have seen 3D Pokémon and open world. And "more 3D and more freedom = more betterer", so there is no way they can permanently go back to 2D.

I think a good option might be to have a team (internal or another company) develop and put out 2D sprite games to fill the release window, as a kind of spin-off series. It would be good for remakes (better than the BDSP style, at least) and older fans would probably enjoy modern takes on a classic style. Maybe they could even focus on a more mature audience and allow us to turn off the exp. share and use set battle mode.

Older fans and fans who appreciated the quality spritework we got from the older games can enjoy that while the main team can have more time to focus on developing the next general audience 3D Pokémon.

I doubt it will ever happen, but I think it would be a good idea.