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Game of Thrones

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Yeah, I agree completely.

In the books almost every important character is portrayed as a "grey-area" kind of guy/gal (except like Joffrey, he's just a piece of shit), whereas in the show kind of went the more traditional "good vs evil" route. It's still nowhere near as defined as in classical literature, which is part of why the show is still super-good, but it's definitely a lot more noticeable.

That said, I always did get a feeling that the Starks were supposed to be the "main" characters. Think about it, they're the only ones involved in every aspect of the story--bar Dany's saga, I guess--so I can see why they did that in the show. This is why I think the Red Wedding gives everyone that "ugh" feeling. It's also a lot easier to lose interest in a TV show when you don't have anyone to "root for" than it is in a book.

It's all up to Arya being a fucking boss now, I guess.

Also, lmao @ 2:23 in the reactions video Soul Fly posted. Amazing.
 
It's odd, the first book didn't seem so different from the first season, but by now there are a lot of changes between the two, characters changed/lost/created, characters taking different paths... often I'm unsure why they bothered.

I think it comes down to some budget and some storytelling.

In the books, the characters visit almost every single insignificant little dot on the map. There is a lot of walking, and visiting of places that would be too expensive to film.

In the books, Daenerys' story is somewhat tedious. She doesn't interact with any other of the main characters, she keeps meandering away from Westeros, and I think her actions all wind up being pretty insignificant to the struggle for the Iron Throne. No wonder if they change it up a bit. It gets even worse when she chooses to settle later, and struggle to keep the place afloat while nobody really cares how things go. Her tale is spiced up a little with a few more deaths in the TV series, but that still doesn't do much to save her story from being an absolute borefest.

Also, Robb hasn't got that much of a role in the books. He's not a POV character, and most of the time, he doesn't travel with any either. He's mostly portrayed as "being somewhere else and fighting a war". His wife in the books, Jeyne Westerling, kinda comes in from nowhere. He's already married when Catelyn meets up with him. I understand why the TV series would want to make his story a little more fleshed out, but I don't see why they killed off his wife at the Red Wedding. Her staying alive (not being present at the feast) is implied to be a major plot point in later books.

Then there's all the nudity running around. Let's just say that the books don't take place in an universe where "age of consent" is a thing. Also, most child characters are made older. It keeps it simpler with fewer young child actors (in the books, Daenerys is 13 when introduced, Jon is 15 and Arya 9).

Finally, they cut down the number of characters (from an astounding 1846, if my memory serves me correctly) and merge a few roles, so there is fewer people to keep track of. Especially those who are introduced, do something, and is either killed or just abandoned never to be mentioned again.
 
Why does he keep killing the good guys? I dont understand whats the point of this show anymore

If you think GoT is that kind of series where the 'Good guy" survives all kinds of insane and biased stuff and comes out in the end all shining and godly to extract JUSTICE and RIGHTEOUS VENGEANCE then ..

(a) . You haven't been paying attention

or

(b) . The series isn't for you.

This is no harry potter honey..

------------

EDIT:
That said, I always did get a feeling that the Starks were supposed to be the "main" characters. Think about it, they're the only ones involved in every aspect of the story--bar Dany's saga, I guess--so I can see why they did that in the show. This is why I think the Red Wedding gives everyone that "ugh" feeling. It's also a lot easier to lose interest in a TV show when you don't have anyone to "root for" than it is in a book.

It's just because the story started in Winterfell everyone just kinda assumed that Starks were the main characters, they paid real close attention to the symbolism of the 6 direwolves and hoped it would all make a fucking big difference way later in the series (like it happens in all other fantasy series)

The story could have started at king's landing/daenerys's wedding or even with FUCKING gendry's back story and it would't have made a thimbleful of difference to the plotline. Now look at where we are. More than half the Starks are dead (so are the direwolves which were supposed to mean so much), everything is fucked up, and it's all over the place.

People are desperately trying to search for the 'HERO' and they aren't finding it. Someone is supposed to remain righteous and survive all this and come out Awesome and Victorious.

I bet almost everyone's pinned their hopes on Arya now, repeating the same mistake all over again.
 
I don't buy that the show came out to be more about the Starks than it was in the books, or that there weren't a ton of not grey at all evil people in the books.

There are actually far more credited main characters in the show than there were in the books, like Littlefinger, Varys, Tywin, Cersei for longer, Bronn, Stannis, Melisandre, Margaery, Jorah, Joffrey, Gendry, Ygritte, the Hound, the Bear, King Robert, Viserys, Khal Drogo, all of these are credited main cast members for a reason, they get far more time relatively dedicated to them than the books gave them. All the Starks got on that deal was more Robb and the made up Talisa. And if you think I'm using technicalities or stretching things, just look at posts in this thread calling Littlefinger or Tywin the real stars of the story.

Next, everyone who was blatantly evil in the show was blatantly evil in the books. Not just Joffrey, but Ramsay, the Mountain, Vargo Hoat/whoever replaced him for no reason. It's a lot of little characters, but in ASOIAF it's not that evil doesn't exist, that's silly. It's good that is sometimes called into question.
 
out of every forums i visit, this one is the worst for spoilers.

like omg guys, y'all are terrible at hide tags.

but anyway, fuck yeah, this season has been nearly flawless so far, and i can't imagine them fucking that track record up in the last ep.

bring it.
 
Just posting to say that this season has been fucking epic and the one that rly got me hooked up to Game of Thrones! And the guy above is right, stop ruining other people's fun with your spoilers guys...
 
Speaking of which, does anyone else find that the show has overplayed how much the Starks are meant to be the "good guys"? I mean its obvious that they are better in a sense to the Lannisters, but while reading the books I came to understand the Lannisters actions a lot more, and it was also made very plain that the circumstances under which Robert and Ned won the throne were pretty dubious anyway. I feel like the show has taken a great story where there are no real good or bad guys, and no main protaganists / antagonists, and made it a bit too much about Stark vs Lannister. Thoughts?
I don't see how you could not see the Starks as the good guys. It's said throughout the entire books and show that they are the most honorable house. They are the only house that seems to struggle with the dark and backstabbing nature of the politics of Westeros. This is the precise reason that they are falling apart. Ned is so honorable that when he was warned a number of times to keep Joffrey on the throne, he risked his life in order to do what the law of Westeros decreed. Robb followed in his footsteps so much that he had to fall to the same fate. Sansa is so innocent throughout most of this that she can barely do anything. The only one I think that has an argument for being somewhat of a bad guy is Arya. Now I agree that a lot of the other characters are not full on evil, but there are few that will show as much honor as the Starks. The only ones that come to mind are Brienne and Barristan off the top of my head.

More than half the Starks are dead (so are the direwolves which were supposed to mean so much), everything is fucked up, and it's all over the place.
Actually less than half the Starks are dead. The Starks that began the show are Ned, Cat, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon. This creates a total of 7, or 8 if you want to include Jon Snow. Only 3 of these are actually dead, them being Ned, Cat, and Rob. And only 2 of the 5 direwolves are dead, Lady and Greywind.

There are actually far more credited main characters in the show than there were in the books, like Littlefinger, Varys, Tywin, Cersei for longer, Bronn, Stannis, Melisandre, Margaery, Jorah, Joffrey, Gendry, Ygritte, the Hound, the Bear, King Robert, Viserys, Khal Drogo, all of these are credited main cast members for a reason, they get far more time relatively dedicated to them than the books gave them.
It's very hard to give some of these characters POV scenes in the book because they know too much. When you are reading the books you get to see everything that the character is thinking. If we were to glimpse into the minds of Littlefinger or Varys, I'm sure we'd know way more than we are supposed to. I would say similarly for Tywin as well, although not too as much of an extent because he does things a little more out in the open. I mean, the one POV chapter we get with Melisandre is incredibly enlightening/confusing, but if we spent too much more time with her than we'd start to understand things too much. So much of this world is behind the scenes of the characters themselves, so it also has to be hidden from us to a certain extent. Either that or the characters really aren't that big of a deal or spend so much time with another character that we see them enough. Gendry, Jorah, and Ygritte for example. Most of their plot advancement is with another character that is affected by it more, so it makes sense to have if from that characters point of view. Ygritte is really only there for the advancement of Jon's plot, there's no need to give her her own chapters as well.
 
I don't see how you could not see the Starks as the good guys. It's said throughout the entire books and show that they are the most honorable house. They are the only house that seems to struggle with the dark and backstabbing nature of the politics of Westeros. This is the precise reason that they are falling apart. Ned is so honorable that when he was warned a number of times to keep Joffrey on the throne, he risked his life in order to do what the law of Westeros decreed. Robb followed in his footsteps so much that he had to fall to the same fate. Sansa is so innocent throughout most of this that she can barely do anything. The only one I think that has an argument for being somewhat of a bad guy is Arya. Now I agree that a lot of the other characters are not full on evil, but there are few that will show as much honor as the Starks. The only ones that come to mind are Brienne and Barristan off the top of my head.

The key point I was making is that the show overplays this honor, making them the house of absolute good and the Lannisters absolute evil. The Cersei POV chapters actually make you understand why she acts like a bitch, rather than turning the whole thing into Stark vs Lannister, Good vs Evil. I'm not saying the Starks are evil, Lannisters are good or whatever, just that the show lacks the subtlety in the roles characters take, but I guess thats the difference you get between a TV show made for a much wider audience than a book!!
 
Yeah. Also because you really only get most of that in the characters' heads. Also, I think most of Cersei development is in books 4 and 5. Although they do tend to start blending together.
 
Either that or the characters really aren't that big of a deal or spend so much time with another character that we see them enough. Gendry, Jorah, and Ygritte for example. Most of their plot advancement is with another character that is affected by it more, so it makes sense to have if from that characters point of view. Ygritte is really only there for the advancement of Jon's plot, there's no need to give her her own chapters as well.

You say all that, but then there are a lot of frivolous POV character going into book 4.

My point anyway was just that the show isactually a little less Stark than the books were, though we just hit the turning point there.
 
The key point I was making is that the show overplays this honor, making them the house of absolute good and the Lannisters absolute evil. The Cersei POV chapters actually make you understand why she acts like a bitch, rather than turning the whole thing into Stark vs Lannister, Good vs Evil. I'm not saying the Starks are evil, Lannisters are good or whatever, just that the show lacks the subtlety in the roles characters take, but I guess thats the difference you get between a TV show made for a much wider audience than a book!!
We didn't get those chapters until Book 4 which is 2015. Much like we didn't get to understand Jaime until Book 3 which started this season. Robert's rebellion being called into question also wasn't until 4th or 5th book I think. Pretty sure it was only once the Dornish were introduced that we start looking more into that
 
I'm just confused on what this story is about. Its just a bunch of strange events now

Also all the other characters that are still alive are mostly dicks
 
I'm just confused on what this story is about. Its just a bunch of strange events now

Also all the other characters that are still alive are mostly dicks
Would you prefer if it was the standard Father dies/son avenges father/ son becomes good king story? We've still got Melisandra presumably about to sacrifice Gendry, the white walkers attacking and Sam being the only one who knows how to stop them, Dany with Dragons slowly building up her army and the Lannisters trying to control joffery, who will inevitably screw something up in King's Landing. That doesn't even include the other storylines like Theon, Jon, Brann, Arya, and Sansa, which are decidedly less relevant to Westeros but will probably end up being important one way or another.
 
I'm just confused on what this story is about. Its just a bunch of strange events now

Also all the other characters that are still alive are mostly dicks
You're halfway through Book 3 of a 7 book trilogy. Just the halfway point. There are actually major characters you haven't even been introduced yet. So far Danerys has been a completely unrelated sounding plot point. So far, the White Walkers they've been talking about since the opening of the first episode have barely done shit. There's plenty of different threads that haven't come together.

I kind of get what you're saying from the point of view that looks at the war during A Clash of Kings (Season 2) as the most major event, but though it's a major event, winning that war doesn't give the Iron Throne to the victor. There are still plenty of players fighting for the throne. Lannisters, Tyrells, Littlefinger, Stannis, and of course Danerys all seem to want a crack at it.
 
It's also worth repeating the point that these books were based off of real events like the War of the Roses and historical novels like the Romance of the Three Kingdoms. I suppose from a normal storytelling standpoint the RoTK can also seem like a bunch of strange events where major characters get killed off left and right, but there's a charm in that it's (mostly) real history. A Song of Ice and Fire absolutely nails the same kind of feel, in my opinion. Directed and sweeping narratives can be good, but the ability to get so absorbed into a fantasy book that it feels real, that's pretty special.
 
The key point I was making is that the show overplays this honor, making them the house of absolute good and the Lannisters absolute evil. The Cersei POV chapters actually make you understand why she acts like a bitch, rather than turning the whole thing into Stark vs Lannister, Good vs Evil. I'm not saying the Starks are evil, Lannisters are good or whatever, just that the show lacks the subtlety in the roles characters take, but I guess thats the difference you get between a TV show made for a much wider audience than a book!!

i've not read any of the books, but i'd say the show does a good job of humanizing the lannisters. the scene with jamie in the tub was well-executed, and delivered at just the right moment: he had just eaten enough shit for the audience to start to feel slightly sorry for him.

tyrion has been a sympathetic character since what, the end of the first season? even cersei is shown to be powerless under her father's control, and the brief glimpses we get into her marriage with robert only further cement how stultifying it is to be a woman (especially an intelligent one) in a world completely dominated by men. we quickly learn how limited her power really is, and why she chooses to exercise what power she has so mercilessly.

tywin is still a dick, but i assume he'll get some development later on. i really don't think the show lacks subtlety at all.
 
So I've been reading the books over the last few months and I've finally finished all the books earlier this week. After letting some thing sink in and collected some thoughts before posting. So this post is mainly directed at anyone that has read all the books. My thoughts and some speculations. Don't open the hide tag if you are not caught up on with the books.

Arya Stark. Let's start here, so she joins the Faceless Men guild. From what I remember her reason to join was for the revenge she sought out towards the Lannisters (I could be misinterpreting it). Now that she has gone through her initiation and going through the training, I don't really see how much she'll accomplish there as the guild doesn't seem to allow killing on whims and for personal reason. Such as when Arya killed Dareon, the Night's Watch deserter, she got in got in trouble for doing so. I doubt the guild just lets people walk when they feel like it's time for them to go. I feel like this has pretty much lost hope for her to have a shot at getting back to Winterfell. What happens now?


The entire time I read ADWD all I'm thinking is "When is Dany going to off her ass and actually do something?" I was seriously hoping for her to actually do something big. Up to this point Dany has gotten her dragons, then become Abe Lincoln for three books. Now she's lost 2 of her dragons and things look really bleak for her at this point. She does meet Jhaqo, how much that actually means I don't really know. Her role in how this play out might depend on if she can join up with Aegon and can get along to accomplish a common goal.


AEGON TARGARYEN IS ALIVE! That was interesting to see and this should make things for the throne much more interesting. Bringing Dany and Aegon together seems be a somewhat good idea but with the events surrounding Dany, this may not happen or go as planned. For some reason I remember reading somewhere (reddit I think) that Tyrion noticed that Aegon was slightly younger than what he was supposed to be. I don't know if this actually happened or me being tired and trying to post this at 5 a.m without sleeping and me starting to image things.


Last thing I wanted to talk about, Jon Snow and his "death." I personally don't think he died and he's done, we've had five books of build up with him after having him up at the wall and everything seems like it would be all for not to just have him die like that. The prologue of ADWD supports my theory. In the prologue we saw a warg die and warg into his warg animal and continue living there. So I believe he likely warged into Ghost and will likely be revived later on by Melissandre maybe. I didn't pick up on this reading the books the first time through but apparently throughout the books hints were being dropped as to who Jon's mother and real parents are, Rhaegar and Lyanna. See here.


From looking around on the internet, I found a ton of speculations that can be found here if you are interested.

Well that's all I have to say, just my some thoughts on of the events of the later books. If you reply try make sure to use hide tags.

Hope to get some discussion from this.
 
Yeah, I was super bummed out about Arya joining the Faceless men - from what it seems, she basically won't be able to do anything except what they command her for a while. At least she isn't blind any more, though. But hey, Jaqen H'ghar was a faceless man, and he was across the narrow sea - maybe after a certain period of service, they will be sent to do the work of the Many-faced God outside of Braavos. That's what I'm hoping, and maybe she'll return to Westeros for the last book.


Jon Snow was a bit of an idiot I thought (he knew nothing) so I don't really mind that he got killed, though with Sam gone south we now don't have any character with the night's watch to see what's going on up there (except Melisandre I guess..?). And with recent events, the nights watch is about to get verrry interesting, so you might be right - he might not be dead, or maybe we'll just get a different pov. Jeyne maybe? She's still at the wall, right?

That's an interesting thought about Jon's parentage. I always just assumed it was Wylla, because, you know, Ned sort of implied that it was when talking with Robert. I feel like that third guess is sort of reaching, one of those things where people look into the foreshadowing too hard and see things that aren't there. It's hard to predict plot twists.

Of course, if it were true, would that mean that Jon has king's blood, and Melisandre will try to sacrifice him?



I for one am pumped for Victarion to finally bring Dany those ships she's been wanting for the last four books. Freeing the slaves is a pretty impressive task, and I'd be happy if she stayed there and demolished the slave trade in all the free cities; or if she just gave up and sailed back to Westeros. As long as she does something.




I was talking to someone who watches the show and not the books, and he was predicting that Joffrey would die in Season 4, and he would be killed by Tywin. A bit off the mark, but surprisingly close given given what's about to happen in the final episode of this season. Just a fun anecdote!

edit
i've not read any of the books, but i'd say the show does a good job of humanizing the lannisters. the scene with jamie in the tub was well-executed, and delivered at just the right moment: he had just eaten enough shit for the audience to start to feel slightly sorry for him.

tyrion has been a sympathetic character since what, the end of the first season? even cersei is shown to be powerless under her father's control, and the brief glimpses we get into her marriage with robert only further cement how stultifying it is to be a woman (especially an intelligent one) in a world completely dominated by men. we quickly learn how limited her power really is, and why she chooses to exercise what power she has so mercilessly.

tywin is still a dick, but i assume he'll get some development later on. i really don't think the show lacks subtlety at all.

Nah, with Tywin, I think what you see is what you get. There weren't any POV chapters from him in the books that I remember, he's just a powerful man that is working not for the good of his children, but for the good of his family (and the longevity of the Lannisters). All the backstory we hear in the books to give Tywin more character just makes him look harder and harder with every new story.

Then again, he's my favorite Lannister, because even though it's portraying his children in a sympathetic light, Tywin is just a fucking boss.
 
Okay that link sold me on R+L=J. i'd always enjoyed the idea but hadn't given it any credibility but the comment

regarding Aegon and the dragon must have three heads, implying Danaerys, the now demonstrated to be alive Aegon, and Jon as the heads of the dragon

sold me on it.
 
I don't think Aegon is the real Aegon. I think he is the son of Illyrio and Serra. You can read up on that theory here.

I don't think Jon Snow is gone for good. He has been set up too much to be offed right as his story is getting to a head, but knowing GRRM we can never be sure until TWOW comes out.

Speculation for tonight's episode: I think it will end with Lady Stoneheart being revived. It will start with Robbwind. Purple Wedding won't be until midway through next season. They showed Yara in the preview so maybe Balon dies this episode? HODOR will HODOR. Coldhands probably won't be introduced until next season since I haven't heard any casting about him. I can't wait for Dorne to be introduced, but that definitely won't happen until next season as well.
 
Starting with Jon Snow, I think he'll survive the stabbings to some degree. He might be killed, but that doesn't mean he'll be dead, or stay so for long. Beric Dondarrion died six times before finally kicking the bucket the seventh time, thanks to the help from a Red Priest. Now, does Jon Snow have any Red Priests hanging around? Yes, Melisandre is literally right around the corner. As a backup, he also has Ghost to warg into. Jon Snow being stabbed at the Wall is practically like a man choking on his lunch at a hospital staff meeting. Besides, as noted earlier, the books practically demand a pair of eyes at the wall, a POV character telling about the stuff happening up there (the Wall is pretty vital to the story). Melisandre could do as a POV character in a pinch, though.

As for Aegon, I think he's the real deal, though I understand why some people would doubt. Either way, nice to see somebody finally moving towards the Iron Throne. There wouldn't be many armies in the area capable of repelling the invasion, though the mercenaries will have to move swiftly on the capital, and they can't hold any areas for long without the support of the locals. This shouldn't be any problem, though: They are ten thousand soldiers, and King's Landing is practically within walking distance from the place where they landed.

Daenerys' story has left me disappointed so far. "It's hard to save the world", her chapters scream. Intentionally or not, she makes a very good parallel to NATO's presence in Afghanistan, or the US+ in Iraq. Offing the previous heads of state, and trying to make things better by turning the political system upside-down, though failing to gain support and cooperation in the general population, while a loosely organized "shadow enemy" consisting of supporters of the former regime makes things miserable for the poor locals. AND she has flying death machines that occasionally kill civilians.
Personally, I hope she'll just ditch Mereen and head westwards with that Khalasar that just picked her up. I suppose the subsequent revolts in Mereen, and the reveal of, and eventual takeover by, the Harpy will be the end of Barristan Selmy and whoever else Dany leaves behind.

Arya's story has to go somewhere, though I'm not sure where or how. Becoming a Faceless Man takes years, but I don't think she'll be staying there until graduation. Arya, being a Stark, is too important to the plot to die in Bravoos without an identity. My guess is that she'll get to cross the Narrow Sea for a mission, and that her target would be a known character. Queen Cersei, Melisandre, perhaps even her brother Rickon. Anybody that someone would empty their pockets to see die could be a potential target. She might die in the attempt, or be hunted down by another Faceless Man after failing/refusing her task, but not die before interacting with somebody familiar to the readers.

As for Stannis, this is what I'm most excited for. A theory in the linked Reddit thread, along with bits and bobs I've picked up elsewhere, makes for a decent story on its own:

First, Ramsay Bolton sent his armies out from Winterfell to fight Stannis. However, things didn't go exactly as planned for him: Wyman Manderly and his army butchered or deceived the Frey army (mind you, the Freys wouldn't be used to the Northern winter, whereas Manderly and his army are Northernmen). Once a sufficient number of Freys had frozen to death in the violent blizzard, Manderly turned to Stannis and offered his help. Bolton is brought word of success, and sends a letter to the Wall, the infamous "Bastard Letter". Its contents are true as far as he knows, but he's unaware that the army besieging Winterfell is doubled in size rather than eliminated.
Here's a piece of evidence to support the theory that Stannis will survive: A prophecy by Patchface:
"We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh."
One of the houses loyal to Stannis is House Velaryon, whose sigil is a seahorse. The current Lord Velayron is a kid, the previous Lord Velaryon died at the Blackwater. However, said lord also fathered a bastard, Aurane Waters, whom Cersei appointed Master of Ships. As Cersei fell from power, Aurane Waters took the newly built fleet and turned pirate. He's clearly no Lannister friend, but perhaps he remains loyal to Stannis and will provide him with a fleet to get his army back down south where it belongs. Also, the sigil of House Manderly is a merman.

Last, Jeyne Westerling, the widow of Robb Stark: In her first appearance, she is described by Catelyn as being okayishly pretty, but with good hips for childbirth. Later on, before capturing her at Riverrun, Jaime Lannister says mostly the same, but comments on her scrawny hips. This is the first time he meets Jeyne. Could it be that the Jeyne Westerling he takes into custody is a decoy?
 
No Lady Stoneheart, no Coldhands, just everyone praising Dany. Really lackluster finale.

also, the north will never forget T_T
Robb_Wind.png
 
lady stoneheart is at the very end of the book so that's kinda expected. but yeah the finale was pretty boring compared to the rest of the season/the book

next season should be amazing though
 
Last episode kind of sucked. I really don't care about Dany any more, and next season is probably gonna be even worse for her taking up screen time not actually doing anything. Tyrion and Tywin scenes were excellent as always though.

I'm really disappointed that Joffrey is still alive considering that Jaime is back at King's Landing now in the series, but in the books he doesn't get back until after Joff's wedding (Just in time to have sex with Cersei in front of his corpse). I also saw an interview with Charles Dance after season 2 ended in which he said he was looking forward to filming Tywins death scene next season, so I've been anticipating Joff/Tywin dying this season but it never happened.
Looking ahead to next season though, we've got a lot of great stuff happening. I'm especially looking forward to The Red Viper vs The Mountain and Stannis kicking ass up North. All hail Stannis Baratheon, the one true king!
 
Really disappointed with the finale. Since they're obviously not following the exact chronological order of the book, there was a multitude of better ways they could have ended the season to put the non-book readers on edge.

Still already looking forward to next season though!
 
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