I'm talking about after a dd...
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Garchomp and this Metagame
- Thread starter Caelum
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I'm talking about after a dd...
How can you say garchomp is predictable when extremely strong physical sets exist, plus viable special sets which can really surprise a lot of people? He gets STAB on EQ, one of the most commonly used moves, and one which is easily capable of taking down his counters.
I'd have to say I don't build my teams around looking to counter Garchomp; I have no definitive Garchomp counter on my current OU team. Maybe some BL pokemon should be given a chance to counter 'chomp. I'd like to see him take down an Articuno if he doesn't have Fire Fang/Stone Edge.
I'd have to say I don't build my teams around looking to counter Garchomp; I have no definitive Garchomp counter on my current OU team. Maybe some BL pokemon should be given a chance to counter 'chomp. I'd like to see him take down an Articuno if he doesn't have Fire Fang/Stone Edge.
predictable yes, but predict a outrage that 2HKOs all of his counters save bronzong, who dies to fire fang
Modest nature I guess? I dono.
I might be late, but I kind of want to fill out the questions.
1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?
Right now I'm using Scarf Garchomp to revenge kill Yache Chomps, I'm also carrying Ice Punch over Thunder Punch for it on another poke. Specifically running a specific EV spread to survive a CB Outrage, and OHKO back with Ice Beam (for non Yache versions that is). So yeah, I sometimes unintentionally put many things to stop him. I'd be making all of changes too if he was gone. Especially since to cover a Chomp weakness, I'm gambling with a Gyarados hole with one of the moveslots taken.
2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?
Yeah, it's not until I'm almost done that I really start paying attention to different threats or if in the beginning a bunch of pokes share a common weakness to something else (like Heracross or something). He's why I usually consider Hp Ice on Zapdos than anything else, I don't want him setting up on anything.
3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?
My current team has one pokemon to take Choice'd Outrages and Ice Beam back for the OHKO. Then for the Yache version, I'm usually going to go down one poke to finish it off. Seeing as how things like Hp Ice from Zapdos or Ice Punch from Dusknoir barely hit 50%, I usually have to send in Scarfchomp in to Outrage and clean up Yache after something's gone down. And usually that sets me in an uncomfortable position especially if I have to Outrage early in the game for my Scarfchomp and let them get an even easier revenge kill on me.
4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?
Yeah, people, I think, are running things like Hp Ice for Garchomp more for anything else like Dragonite. I mean they lose 25% while Garchomp actually resists Stealth Rocks. I don't know what else to say, people would rather not have an easy exploited set to set up on if they don't carry an Ice move or something.
5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.
Some, but it's nowhere near as easy to do or anything. Things I have in mind are like Lucario, or Gyarados who do extremely well if you let a hole like that open up to you. And that's the thing, I can usually slap on Gliscor, or Gyarados to stop Lucario, when it takes more stuff than that to take care of a Garchomp problem.
1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?
Right now I'm using Scarf Garchomp to revenge kill Yache Chomps, I'm also carrying Ice Punch over Thunder Punch for it on another poke. Specifically running a specific EV spread to survive a CB Outrage, and OHKO back with Ice Beam (for non Yache versions that is). So yeah, I sometimes unintentionally put many things to stop him. I'd be making all of changes too if he was gone. Especially since to cover a Chomp weakness, I'm gambling with a Gyarados hole with one of the moveslots taken.
2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?
Yeah, it's not until I'm almost done that I really start paying attention to different threats or if in the beginning a bunch of pokes share a common weakness to something else (like Heracross or something). He's why I usually consider Hp Ice on Zapdos than anything else, I don't want him setting up on anything.
3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?
My current team has one pokemon to take Choice'd Outrages and Ice Beam back for the OHKO. Then for the Yache version, I'm usually going to go down one poke to finish it off. Seeing as how things like Hp Ice from Zapdos or Ice Punch from Dusknoir barely hit 50%, I usually have to send in Scarfchomp in to Outrage and clean up Yache after something's gone down. And usually that sets me in an uncomfortable position especially if I have to Outrage early in the game for my Scarfchomp and let them get an even easier revenge kill on me.
4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?
Yeah, people, I think, are running things like Hp Ice for Garchomp more for anything else like Dragonite. I mean they lose 25% while Garchomp actually resists Stealth Rocks. I don't know what else to say, people would rather not have an easy exploited set to set up on if they don't carry an Ice move or something.
5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.
Some, but it's nowhere near as easy to do or anything. Things I have in mind are like Lucario, or Gyarados who do extremely well if you let a hole like that open up to you. And that's the thing, I can usually slap on Gliscor, or Gyarados to stop Lucario, when it takes more stuff than that to take care of a Garchomp problem.
assuming that there's a problem in the first place and that it has something to do with either Garchomp or Sandstream, how/why exactly would we deal with the issue through Sandstream as opposed to banning Garchomp?
Sand Veil on Garchomp is obviously not broken. It's just luck. Just because it makes Garchomp harder to kill does not make it broken. Does Garchomp require a miss to sweep? No.
It's not the ability, it's the pokemon.
Would banning Yache Berry on Garchomp be practical? Garchomp would still be good, yet not that good(meaning it would be more OHKO-able). It would still be one of the biggest threats in the game, though not by so much of a margin. It just feels weird to put this in ubers. (albeit weird banning an item on one pokemon).
It's not the ability, it's the pokemon.
Would banning Yache Berry on Garchomp be practical? Garchomp would still be good, yet not that good(meaning it would be more OHKO-able). It would still be one of the biggest threats in the game, though not by so much of a margin. It just feels weird to put this in ubers. (albeit weird banning an item on one pokemon).
See the logic I've been using is if we are going to such drastic lengths to keep a pokemon in OU (garchomp), then why bother at all. I remember a topic back a few months ago that suggested that we take off Sand Veil from Garchomp. Why don't we just Uber the pokemon then? Why is is so important that it has to be OU?
I don't think we'll hurt its feelings if you put it into Uber. I think that we shouldn't just ban separate things from it, the pokemon is Uber or not. Like you said it'd be even weirder to ban a certain item on that guy. We aren't trying to adjust the game to our liking that much.
Excuse me, but I seem to recall the same "_____ is overpowered, ban it!" argument for Tyranitar no more than a few months ago. As far as justifying it based on usage, the argument held as much water concerning ADV Blissey as it does D/P Garchomp now... Blissey's never been banned and we left Tyranitar to its devices. What makes Garchomp any different?
Abomasnow is BL solely due to Snow Warning, why not T-Tar in Uber solely for the much stronger Sand Stream? (Nevermind that Tyranitar is a 600-BST monster himself.) Sorry you have to be thrown in with him, Hippowdon. :(
EDIT: Clearly the two guys below me don't get it.
"Sorry you have to be thrown in with him"? ... are you joking? <_< This doesn't make any sense, you're saying that we should keep the most powerful pokemon and ban some weaker ones to make the powerful one less powerful?
Yeah, why would we ban Tyranitar (who has several 100% counters) and Hippowdon (who is in no way broken) to save the butt of Garchomp.
If Garchomp is broken, he will get banned, not the other pokemon that help him achieve his goal.
That's almost as bad as saying "let's ban Magnezone because he can remove a lot of Swellow's counters. If Swellow was broken (which he isn't) we wouldn't ban the pokemon that help him sweep. We'd ban him.
If Garchomp is broken, he will get banned, not the other pokemon that help him achieve his goal.
That's almost as bad as saying "let's ban Magnezone because he can remove a lot of Swellow's counters. If Swellow was broken (which he isn't) we wouldn't ban the pokemon that help him sweep. We'd ban him.
That is incorrect; there are many more whom are capable of both outspeeding and OHKOing enemy Garchomp. Yache Berry Garchomp is unable to outspeed Choice Scarf Garchomp, therefore the latter will outrun Yache varients and OHKO. However, both Garchomp and Frosslass are not safe swithing in to opposing Garchomp. I'm sure there are certain scenarios where it may occur, but it is very uncommon and cannot be executed on a regular basis to determine the move 'safe'.
It would be a lot easier if you just agreed with me in the first place that Sand Veil is the only thing that separates Garchomp from his contemporaries.
uhhh....are you serious?
Sand Veil isn't even close to the only thing that separates Garchomp from his contemporaries. If you really think that then I suggest you sign onto ShoddyBattle right now and watch how nearly every match plays out. Or better yet, play. hint: most of them are based around Garchomp and many of them come down to Garchomp speed ties. I can't even believe you would post something like this and expect anyone with knowledge of how d/p is actually played to take you seriously.
Because Sand Stream isn't the problem. Sand Veil on Garchomp is. Sand Stream doesn't make Tyranitar broken, but Sand Veil helps make Garchomp broken. If a pokemon has an ability that makes it broken, it is that pokemon that is broken, not the move or the ability. Even if someone seriously believed that Sand Veil is the only thing making Garchomp broken, the fact is that it has Sand Veil and its broken. It doesn't matter if you think that's the only thing, because it still makes it broken.
uhh..lol Tyranitar hasn't been considered an Uber suspect for almost a year...where have you been in the last 6 months? That hype was before D/P even came out...when the community as a whole was notoriously wrong about pokemon tier placement (hi Rhyperior). I have a feeling that your opinions of Garchomp are being swayed by lack of experience. If I'm wrong let me know, but most of the people who are against Garchomp don't play enough to see it. Just look at the usage stats..There were less usages on Smogon's server and Garchomp gained an even BIGGER lead this month than it had last month, breaking its own record. It makes Blissey's lead from December (the last time any pokemon besides Garchomp held #1) look like a joke.
uhh..what do you think makes Garchomp different? Is that really a serious question?
Blissey and Tyranitar have glaringly obvious weaknesses, while Garchomp's weaknesses take multiple pokemon to exploit. Tyranitar and Blissey don't have the speed, defenses or ability to literally avoid their weaknesses. Both Tyranitar and Blissey have several 100% counters, while Garchomp puts a huge portion of an opponents team in jeopardy. Garchomp is much, much more overpowering than Tyranitar or Blissey ever could be. I agree that usage stats are not the only thing that should determine a pokemon's status....but really, if 19000 more people are using one pokemon over the second highest...that could point to something. Tyranitar and Blissey may have been centralizing factors in Adv, but this is still not an Adv discussion and I don't see why you keep bringing this up. The comparison is not valid, Garchomp possesses overpowering qualities that Ttar and Blissey wish they could have. Ttar and Bliss were used in Adv because they were great pokemon and had movepools to deal consistent damage no matter how the metagame shifted. They learned to adapt. Garchomp is used in D/P because it is overpowered and its standard moveset is uncounterable by any definition. Garchomp doesn't have to adapt to the metagame because it IS the metagame.
This has got to be the most "QFT" thing I have seen on Smogon ever. Higher up in the ladder, every team has Garchomp on it. Every team. Of course I had a Garchomp myself too.
Anyways, to sum it up, every match involved finding a way to get in your Yache Chomp safely, Swords Dance, kill their fast ice beamer (using the Yache for protection) and keep sweeping. Eventually it comes down to Garchomp vs. Garchomp. Whoever's Garchomp wins the coin flip wins the match, almost guarenteed. Most players simply give up the match if their Garchomp dies because without it, there is no hope of winning against a player who does have it.
I lost a match, five pokemon vs. one Garchomp because my Chomp missed as he Swords Danced, then he won the speed tie and killed me, and swept my entire team. The entire competitive game is basically your "five pokemon plus Garchomp" vs "their five pokemon plus Garchomp"
Bull-fucking-shit.
You people need to stop overdramatizing Garchomp. Seriously, the game does NOT come down to Garchomp vs. Garchomp ties and shit. Especially not with Deoxys-E running around everywhere now. I use Garchomp on my team as a Choice Scarfer, and do perfectly fine without it and have no problems with other Garchomps. Any smart player knows that if you carry a slow, bulky team... you have Garchomp problems. However, if you've adapted and run a faster team, Yache chomp doesn't give you many problems. Garchomp rarely gets more than 1 kill against me.
Garchomp has plenty of ways to "deal" with it. Hell, the fact that simply placing a Scarf on its duplicate can handle him is all it takes. And before someone says "your using the Scarf just for other Garchomps" --- Fuck off, I use it because it is the nastiest one IMO. Its actually quite easy to make a successful Garchomp-less team... I have dozens of them and they do fine. Seriously, I'm sick of people bitching and whining about how tough Garchomp is. Honestly, Gyarados and Lucario make me shit my pants more than Garchomp does.
You people need to stop overdramatizing Garchomp. Seriously, the game does NOT come down to Garchomp vs. Garchomp ties and shit. Especially not with Deoxys-E running around everywhere now. I use Garchomp on my team as a Choice Scarfer, and do perfectly fine without it and have no problems with other Garchomps. Any smart player knows that if you carry a slow, bulky team... you have Garchomp problems. However, if you've adapted and run a faster team, Yache chomp doesn't give you many problems. Garchomp rarely gets more than 1 kill against me.
Garchomp has plenty of ways to "deal" with it. Hell, the fact that simply placing a Scarf on its duplicate can handle him is all it takes. And before someone says "your using the Scarf just for other Garchomps" --- Fuck off, I use it because it is the nastiest one IMO. Its actually quite easy to make a successful Garchomp-less team... I have dozens of them and they do fine. Seriously, I'm sick of people bitching and whining about how tough Garchomp is. Honestly, Gyarados and Lucario make me shit my pants more than Garchomp does.
Scarfchomp? It beats Yache Chomp 100%! I mean, if Yache Chomp is most common and it always comes down to Garchomp vs. Garchomp, wouldn't using Scarfchomp be the better choice?
"I lost a match, five pokemon vs. one Garchomp because my Chomp missed as he Swords Danced..."
This sure looks like yet another "Garchomp is only broken because of Sand Veil" argument...
The recently quoted battle logs touted as "proof" that Garchomp is overbearing is based solely on the fact that, oh look, he dodged some crap and that allowed him to kick ass. Regardless of whether you agree with me or not, that's exactly how those logs were presented and that's all that I responded against.
No. Sand Stream is the problem. Sand Veil only helps makes Garchomp [arguably] broken because Sand Stream's permanent weather property allow it to be abused. Sand Stream has its own issues anyway; Tyranitar essentially has more stats than anyone else in OU by virtue of its automatic 1.5x SpDef self-buff, centralizes the metagame toward Sandstorm immunities more than Stealth Rock does away from Rock weaknesses, fucks up more item and moveset strategies (e.g. EndRev) and encourages Leftovers to nullify the damage.
So why would I want to ban Garchomp when getting rid of the underlying problem does the same thing to unbreak him and fixes a host of other problems in the meantime? Of course, banning T-Tar has its own problem in that Hippowdon would also need to be banished in order to remove Sand Stream from the OU metagame...
That said, I don't think either one should actually be banned. ;/
Tyranitar and Blissey don't have defense? Tyranitar has better defensive capability on both spectrums than Garchomp without Sand Stream. With it, he's on par with the likes of Cresselia or Snorlax at taking special hits and can even survive two hits from SE STAB attacks (like Starmie's Surf). His "exploitable" weakness is solved with a Chople Berry just as Garchomp solves his with a Yache Berry and his amazing defenses allow him to set up multiple DDs far easier than the previously mentioned Salamence/Dragonite. Not weak to SR like those two, either. As for Blissey, its defensive capability is the entire reason it's considered overpowered!
Many pokémon have many movesets that are "uncounterable" by the standard definition, that a true counter can switch into the pokémon and still come out on top. And what of the arguably overpowered Blissey, who can't even properly be "countered" because it doesn't go on the offensive in the first place? That's not a convincing argument at all.
Better "proof" than dubious conclusions based on raw usage would be to show the use of Garchomp at the top of the ladder. (As much as I personally hate ladders myself, it's what we have and mostly what we're going by now...) It doesn't matter that Garchomp is so heavily used if there are an acceptable number of top teams that manage to be successful without him, essentially proving non-brokenness. Proving otherwise, that Garchomp IS broken, is much more difficult...
"I lost a match, five pokemon vs. one Garchomp because my Chomp missed as he Swords Danced..."
This sure looks like yet another "Garchomp is only broken because of Sand Veil" argument...
The recently quoted battle logs touted as "proof" that Garchomp is overbearing is based solely on the fact that, oh look, he dodged some crap and that allowed him to kick ass. Regardless of whether you agree with me or not, that's exactly how those logs were presented and that's all that I responded against.
No. Sand Stream is the problem. Sand Veil only helps makes Garchomp [arguably] broken because Sand Stream's permanent weather property allow it to be abused. Sand Stream has its own issues anyway; Tyranitar essentially has more stats than anyone else in OU by virtue of its automatic 1.5x SpDef self-buff, centralizes the metagame toward Sandstorm immunities more than Stealth Rock does away from Rock weaknesses, fucks up more item and moveset strategies (e.g. EndRev) and encourages Leftovers to nullify the damage.
So why would I want to ban Garchomp when getting rid of the underlying problem does the same thing to unbreak him and fixes a host of other problems in the meantime? Of course, banning T-Tar has its own problem in that Hippowdon would also need to be banished in order to remove Sand Stream from the OU metagame...
That said, I don't think either one should actually be banned. ;/
Tyranitar and Blissey don't have defense? Tyranitar has better defensive capability on both spectrums than Garchomp without Sand Stream. With it, he's on par with the likes of Cresselia or Snorlax at taking special hits and can even survive two hits from SE STAB attacks (like Starmie's Surf). His "exploitable" weakness is solved with a Chople Berry just as Garchomp solves his with a Yache Berry and his amazing defenses allow him to set up multiple DDs far easier than the previously mentioned Salamence/Dragonite. Not weak to SR like those two, either. As for Blissey, its defensive capability is the entire reason it's considered overpowered!
Many pokémon have many movesets that are "uncounterable" by the standard definition, that a true counter can switch into the pokémon and still come out on top. And what of the arguably overpowered Blissey, who can't even properly be "countered" because it doesn't go on the offensive in the first place? That's not a convincing argument at all.
Better "proof" than dubious conclusions based on raw usage would be to show the use of Garchomp at the top of the ladder. (As much as I personally hate ladders myself, it's what we have and mostly what we're going by now...) It doesn't matter that Garchomp is so heavily used if there are an acceptable number of top teams that manage to be successful without him, essentially proving non-brokenness. Proving otherwise, that Garchomp IS broken, is much more difficult...
I don't use Garchomp, but i love killing it.
Anyway, Sand Veil is not the only reason Garchomp is broken. If you miss a Gliscor, Froslass, or Glaceon, it's not going to be game over. If you miss Garchomp, it probably will be.
But seriously, WTF is up with that retarded 102 speed.
Anyway, Sand Veil is not the only reason Garchomp is broken. If you miss a Gliscor, Froslass, or Glaceon, it's not going to be game over. If you miss Garchomp, it probably will be.
But seriously, WTF is up with that retarded 102 speed.
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