Garchomp and this Metagame

[Garganator]

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

I'm not sure. I think Garchomp wouldn't be THAT threatening, because I hate about him two things:

- Yache Berry, which hinder his only weakness and taking out Yache Berry ends up with loosing one pokemon most of times. And I'm person, which always thinks, if some pokemon don't have 100% counter, that should be forced to go to higher tier.
- And SandVeil hax, which makes him even more broken. Combination of Sand Veil + Yache Berry can cost you a match, if you miss. This so the most annoying combination for me.

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?

I think yes, but other dragons are dangerous also. But Salamence and Dragonite have second important weakness - to rock attacks, which many pokemon uses. That's why I think that fighting against Dragonite or Salamence is easier.

3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

At least 2 pokemon have Ice attack to deal with him. One bulky enough to survive a hit and 1-2 revenge killers to finish the job. It looks different in weather teams, especially the Rain Dance and Sunny Day ones.

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?

Yes, it forces. He decreases popularity of Dragonite and Salamence, especially the Dragon Dance sets. Also I wouldn't use that many ice attacks on pokemon like Bronzong or Celebi, which normally would use them not so often.

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

Maybe Gyarados, especially Dragon Dance set. And sometimes Salamence.

 

[Brawley]

Roost does not help at all against Starmie. Its faster.

I'm talking about after a dd...

 

[BAD WOLF]

How can you say garchomp is predictable when extremely strong physical sets exist, plus viable special sets which can really surprise a lot of people? He gets STAB on EQ, one of the most commonly used moves, and one which is easily capable of taking down his counters.

I'd have to say I don't build my teams around looking to counter Garchomp; I have no definitive Garchomp counter on my current OU team. Maybe some BL pokemon should be given a chance to counter 'chomp. I'd like to see him take down an Articuno if he doesn't have Fire Fang/Stone Edge.

 

[G-Beast]

garchomp
is very predictable
so dont whine him being gone
he wont impact the game much

predictable yes, but predict a outrage that 2HKOs all of his counters save bronzong, who dies to fire fang

 

[D3FAULT]

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
Pidgeot79 sent out AAAAA (lvl 100 Tyranitar ?).
D3FAULT sent out Gyarados (lvl 100 Gyarados ?).
Gyarados's intimidate cut AAAAA's attack!
AAAAA's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
A sandstorm brewed!
Gyarados used Dragon Dance.
Gyarados's attack was raised.
Gyarados's speed was raised.
AAAAA used Thunder.
AAAAA's attack missed!
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Gyarados used Waterfall.
It's super effective!
AAAAA lost 79% of its health.
AAAAA used Thunder.
It's super effective!
Gyarados lost 100% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 0% of its health.
D3FAULT's Gyarados fainted.
---
D3FAULT switched in Breloom (lvl 100 Breloom ?).
Breloom used Substitute.
Breloom lost 25% of its health.
Breloom made a substitute!
AAAAA used Fire Punch.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Breloom!
Breloom's substitute faded!
The sandstorm rages.
Breloom is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Breloom lost 6% of its health.
Breloom was badly poisoned!
---
Breloom used Spore.
AAAAA fell asleep!
AAAAA's Lum Berry cured its Sleep!
AAAAA used Fire Punch.
It's super effective!
Breloom lost 48% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Breloom is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Breloom lost 6% of its health.
Breloom's Poison Heal restored health!
Breloom restored 12% of its health.
---
Breloom used Spore.
AAAAA fell asleep!
AAAAA is fast asleep!
The sandstorm rages.
Breloom is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Breloom lost 6% of its health.
Breloom's Poison Heal restored health!
Breloom restored 12% of its health.
---
Pidgeot79 switched in Spiritomb (lvl 100 Spiritomb ?).
Spiritomb is exerting its pressure!
Breloom used Substitute.
Breloom lost 25% of its health.
Breloom made a substitute!
The sandstorm rages.
Breloom is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Breloom lost 6% of its health.
Spiritomb is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Spiritomb lost 6% of its health.
Breloom's Poison Heal restored health!
Breloom restored 12% of its health.
Spiritomb's leftovers restored its health a little!
Spiritomb restored 6% of its health.
---
Breloom used Seed Bomb.
Spiritomb lost 48% of its health.
Spiritomb used Taunt.
Breloom fell for the taunt!
The sandstorm rages.
Breloom is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Breloom lost 6% of its health.
Spiritomb is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Spiritomb lost 6% of its health.
Breloom's Poison Heal restored health!
Breloom restored 12% of its health.
Spiritomb's leftovers restored its health a little!
Spiritomb restored 6% of its health.
---
Pidgeot79 switched in Gliscor (lvl 100 Gliscor ?).
Breloom used Seed Bomb.
Gliscor lost 26% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Breloom is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Breloom lost 6% of its health.
Breloom's Poison Heal restored health!
Breloom restored 12% of its health.
Gliscor's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 6% of its health.
---
Breloom used Seed Bomb.
Gliscor lost 29% of its health.
Gliscor used Ice Fang.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Breloom!
Breloom's substitute faded!
Breloom's taunt wore off!
The sandstorm rages.
Breloom is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Breloom lost 6% of its health.
Breloom's Poison Heal restored health!
Breloom restored 12% of its health.
Gliscor's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 6% of its health.
---
D3FAULT switched in Mamoswine (lvl 100 Mamoswine ?).
Gliscor used Roost.
Gliscor restored 43% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
---
Gliscor used Earthquake.
Mamoswine lost 35% of its health.
Mamoswine used Avalanche.
Mamoswine's attack missed!
The sandstorm rages.
---
D3FAULT: wow..
Gliscor used Knock Off.
Mamoswine lost 5% of its health.
Gliscor knocked off foe Mamoswine's Life Orb!
Mamoswine used Avalanche.
Mamoswine's attack missed!
The sandstorm rages.
---
Mamoswine used Ice Shard.
Mamoswine's attack missed!
Gliscor used Earthquake.
Mamoswine lost 34% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
---
Mamoswine used Ice Shard.
Mamoswine's attack missed!
Gliscor used Earthquake.
Mamoswine lost 25% of its health.
D3FAULT's Mamoswine fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
Pidgeot79: o_O
D3FAULT: that's some serious bullshit. does it have bright powder or something?
Pidgeot79: no
Pidgeot79: leftovers
D3FAULT switched in Gengar (lvl 100 Gengar ?).
Pidgeot79 switched in Cresselia (lvl 100 Cresselia ?).
Gengar used Explosion.
Cresselia lost 61% of its health.
D3FAULT's Gengar fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Cresselia is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Cresselia lost 6% of its health.
Cresselia's leftovers restored its health a little!
Cresselia restored 6% of its health.
---
D3FAULT switched in Breloom (lvl 100 Breloom ?).
Breloom used Seed Bomb.
Cresselia lost 30% of its health.
Cresselia used Ice Beam.
It's super effective!
Breloom lost 32% of its health.
D3FAULT's Breloom fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Cresselia is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Cresselia lost 6% of its health.
Cresselia's leftovers restored its health a little!
Cresselia restored 6% of its health.
---
D3FAULT switched in Tyranitar (lvl 100 Tyranitar ?).
Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
Tyranitar used Crunch.
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
Cresselia lost 9% of its health.
Pidgeot79's Cresselia fainted.
Tyranitar lost 10% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
---
Pidgeot79 switched in Gliscor (lvl 100 Gliscor ?).
Tyranitar used Dragon Dance.
Tyranitar's attack was raised.
Tyranitar's speed was raised.
Gliscor used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
Tyranitar lost 61% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
---
Tyranitar used Stone Edge.
Gliscor lost 65% of its health.
Tyranitar lost 10% of its health.
Gliscor used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
Tyranitar lost 20% of its health.
D3FAULT's Tyranitar fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Gliscor's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 6% of its health.
---
D3FAULT switched in Garchomp (lvl 100 Garchomp ?).
D3FAULT: gg =/
Pidgeot79: gg
Garchomp used Swords Dance.
Garchomp's attack was sharply raised.
Gliscor used Ice Fang.
It's super effective!
Garchomp lost 27% of its health.
The Yache Berry weakened Ice Fang's power!
The sandstorm rages.
Gliscor's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 6% of its health.
---
Garchomp used Dragon Claw.
Gliscor lost 48% of its health.
Pidgeot79's Gliscor fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
Pidgeot79 switched in Starmie (lvl 100 Starmie).
Garchomp used Dragon Claw.
Starmie lost 100% of its health.
Pidgeot79's Starmie fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
Pidgeot79 switched in Spiritomb (lvl 100 Spiritomb ?).
Spiritomb is exerting its pressure!
Pidgeot79: crap!
Spiritomb used Sucker Punch.
Garchomp lost 31% of its health.
Garchomp used Earthquake.
Spiritomb lost 52% of its health.
Pidgeot79's Spiritomb fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
Pidgeot79 switched in AAAAA (lvl 100 Garchomp ?).
Garchomp used Dragon Claw.
It's super effective!
AAAAA lost 100% of its health.
Pidgeot79's AAAAA fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
Pidgeot79 switched in AAAAA (lvl 100 Tyranitar ?).
AAAAA's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
Garchomp used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
AAAAA lost 21% of its health.
Pidgeot79's AAAAA fainted.

Chomp4Uber?

 

[Tsukikage]

How did Starmie not outspeed Chomp?

 

[D3FAULT]

How did Starmie not outspeed Chomp?

Modest nature I guess? I dono.

 

[Bourbon]

it could have been specs star, the analysis says that it should be modest

 

[Syberia]

With Garchomps, Gengars, Infernapes, and everything else between 329 and 361 speed appearing in a lot of places these days, I think the Specstar analysis is about due for a change. Timid should be the preferred nature.

 

[Truthi]

I might be late, but I kind of want to fill out the questions.
1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

Right now I'm using Scarf Garchomp to revenge kill Yache Chomps, I'm also carrying Ice Punch over Thunder Punch for it on another poke. Specifically running a specific EV spread to survive a CB Outrage, and OHKO back with Ice Beam (for non Yache versions that is). So yeah, I sometimes unintentionally put many things to stop him. I'd be making all of changes too if he was gone. Especially since to cover a Chomp weakness, I'm gambling with a Gyarados hole with one of the moveslots taken.

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?

Yeah, it's not until I'm almost done that I really start paying attention to different threats or if in the beginning a bunch of pokes share a common weakness to something else (like Heracross or something). He's why I usually consider Hp Ice on Zapdos than anything else, I don't want him setting up on anything.

3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

My current team has one pokemon to take Choice'd Outrages and Ice Beam back for the OHKO. Then for the Yache version, I'm usually going to go down one poke to finish it off. Seeing as how things like Hp Ice from Zapdos or Ice Punch from Dusknoir barely hit 50%, I usually have to send in Scarfchomp in to Outrage and clean up Yache after something's gone down. And usually that sets me in an uncomfortable position especially if I have to Outrage early in the game for my Scarfchomp and let them get an even easier revenge kill on me.

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?

Yeah, people, I think, are running things like Hp Ice for Garchomp more for anything else like Dragonite. I mean they lose 25% while Garchomp actually resists Stealth Rocks. I don't know what else to say, people would rather not have an easy exploited set to set up on if they don't carry an Ice move or something.

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

Some, but it's nowhere near as easy to do or anything. Things I have in mind are like Lucario, or Gyarados who do extremely well if you let a hole like that open up to you. And that's the thing, I can usually slap on Gliscor, or Gyarados to stop Lucario, when it takes more stuff than that to take care of a Garchomp problem.

 

[D3FAULT]

Here's another log proving his uber-ness. He had a Pokemon that finally got to go first, but guess what? The attack missed because of Sandstorm + Sand Veil. (I'm cutting out the rest of the battle, but Garchomp was my last Pokemon and he had a Choice Scarf)

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause

D3FAULT switched in Garchomp (lvl 100 Garchomp ?).
Vaporeon used Protect.
Vaporeon protected itself!
Garchomp used Outrage.
Vaporeon protected itself!
The sandstorm rages.
Vaporeon is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Vaporeon lost 6% of its health.
Vaporeon's leftovers restored its health a little!
Vaporeon restored 6% of its health.
---
Garchomp used Outrage.
Garchomp went on a rampage!
Vaporeon lost 42% of its health.
Sighfile's Vaporeon fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
Sighfile switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Garchomp used Outrage.
It's not very effective...
Heatran lost 25% of its health.
Heatran used Earth Power.
Garchomp lost 43% of its health.
Heatran lost 10% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
---
Garchomp used Outrage.
It's not very effective...
Heatran lost 29% of its health.
Heatran used Earth Power.
Garchomp lost 40% of its health.
Heatran lost 10% of its health.
Garchomp's rampage ended.
Garchomp became confused!
The sandstorm rages.
---
Garchomp is confused!
Garchomp used Outrage.
Garchomp went on a rampage!
It's not very effective...
Heatran lost 27% of its health.
Sighfile's Heatran fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
Sighfile switched in Gengar (lvl 100 Gengar ?).
Gengar used Shadow Ball.
Gengar's attack missed!
Garchomp snapped out of confusion!
Garchomp used Outrage.
Gengar lost 94% of its health.
Sighfile's Gengar fainted.
Garchomp's rampage ended.
Garchomp became confused!
The sandstorm rages.
---
Sighfile switched in Gyarados (lvl 100 Gyarados ?).
Gyarados's intimidate cut Garchomp's attack!
Garchomp is confused!
Garchomp used Outrage.
Garchomp went on a rampage!
Gyarados lost 4% of its health.
Sighfile's Gyarados fainted.
D3FAULT wins!
D3FAULT: chomp4uber
Sighfile: lcuker
Sighfile has left the room.

Chomp4Uber.

 

[Mr.E]

It would be a lot easier if you just agreed with me in the first place that Sand Veil is the only thing that separates Garchomp from his contemporaries.

But then why should we ban Garchomp for its Sand Veil when the underlying problem is really Sand Stream?

 

[lilyhollow]

assuming that there's a problem in the first place and that it has something to do with either Garchomp or Sandstream, how/why exactly would we deal with the issue through Sandstream as opposed to banning Garchomp?

 

[Syberia]

Banning sandstream would require banning two pokemon, which it does not cause to be broken. Banning Garchomp would require banning only one pokemon, which is borderline broken even without it.

 

[Qzahk]

Sand Veil on Garchomp is obviously not broken. It's just luck. Just because it makes Garchomp harder to kill does not make it broken. Does Garchomp require a miss to sweep? No.

It's not the ability, it's the pokemon.

Would banning Yache Berry on Garchomp be practical? Garchomp would still be good, yet not that good(meaning it would be more OHKO-able). It would still be one of the biggest threats in the game, though not by so much of a margin. It just feels weird to put this in ubers. (albeit weird banning an item on one pokemon).

 

[Truthi]

Sand Veil on Garchomp is obviously not broken. It's just luck. Just because it makes Garchomp harder to kill does not make it broken. Does Garchomp require a miss to sweep? No.

It's not the ability, it's the pokemon.

Would banning Yache Berry on Garchomp be practical? Garchomp would still be good, yet not that good(meaning it would be more OHKO-able). It would still be one of the biggest threats in the game, though not by so much of a margin. It just feels weird to put this in ubers. (albeit weird banning an item on one pokemon).

See the logic I've been using is if we are going to such drastic lengths to keep a pokemon in OU (garchomp), then why bother at all. I remember a topic back a few months ago that suggested that we take off Sand Veil from Garchomp. Why don't we just Uber the pokemon then? Why is is so important that it has to be OU?

I don't think we'll hurt its feelings if you put it into Uber. I think that we shouldn't just ban separate things from it, the pokemon is Uber or not. Like you said it'd be even weirder to ban a certain item on that guy. We aren't trying to adjust the game to our liking that much.

 

[Mr.E]

Banning sandstream would require banning two pokemon, which it does not cause to be broken. Banning Garchomp would require banning only one pokemon, which is borderline broken even without it.

Excuse me, but I seem to recall the same "_____ is overpowered, ban it!" argument for Tyranitar no more than a few months ago. As far as justifying it based on usage, the argument held as much water concerning ADV Blissey as it does D/P Garchomp now... Blissey's never been banned and we left Tyranitar to its devices. What makes Garchomp any different?

Abomasnow is BL solely due to Snow Warning, why not T-Tar in Uber solely for the much stronger Sand Stream? (Nevermind that Tyranitar is a 600-BST monster himself.) Sorry you have to be thrown in with him, Hippowdon. :(

EDIT: Clearly the two guys below me don't get it.

 

[lilyhollow]

"Sorry you have to be thrown in with him"? ... are you joking? <_< This doesn't make any sense, you're saying that we should keep the most powerful pokemon and ban some weaker ones to make the powerful one less powerful?

 

[Bourbon]

Yeah, why would we ban Tyranitar (who has several 100% counters) and Hippowdon (who is in no way broken) to save the butt of Garchomp.

If Garchomp is broken, he will get banned, not the other pokemon that help him achieve his goal.

That's almost as bad as saying "let's ban Magnezone because he can remove a lot of Swellow's counters. If Swellow was broken (which he isn't) we wouldn't ban the pokemon that help him sweep. We'd ban him.

 

[soundecho]

I hate yache chomp T.T. The only thing that outspeeds and KOs it is Frosslass with LO/Blizzard but then you need hail support ==".

 

[Taylor]

That is incorrect; there are many more whom are capable of both outspeeding and OHKOing enemy Garchomp. Yache Berry Garchomp is unable to outspeed Choice Scarf Garchomp, therefore the latter will outrun Yache varients and OHKO. However, both Garchomp and Frosslass are not safe swithing in to opposing Garchomp. I'm sure there are certain scenarios where it may occur, but it is very uncommon and cannot be executed on a regular basis to determine the move 'safe'.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

It would be a lot easier if you just agreed with me in the first place that Sand Veil is the only thing that separates Garchomp from his contemporaries.

uhhh....are you serious?

Sand Veil isn't even close to the only thing that separates Garchomp from his contemporaries. If you really think that then I suggest you sign onto ShoddyBattle right now and watch how nearly every match plays out. Or better yet, play. hint: most of them are based around Garchomp and many of them come down to Garchomp speed ties. I can't even believe you would post something like this and expect anyone with knowledge of how d/p is actually played to take you seriously.

But then why should we ban Garchomp for its Sand Veil when the underlying problem is really Sand Stream?

Because Sand Stream isn't the problem. Sand Veil on Garchomp is. Sand Stream doesn't make Tyranitar broken, but Sand Veil helps make Garchomp broken. If a pokemon has an ability that makes it broken, it is that pokemon that is broken, not the move or the ability. Even if someone seriously believed that Sand Veil is the only thing making Garchomp broken, the fact is that it has Sand Veil and its broken. It doesn't matter if you think that's the only thing, because it still makes it broken.

Excuse me, but I seem to recall the same "_____ is overpowered, ban it!" argument for Tyranitar no more than a few months ago. As far as justifying it based on usage, the argument held as much water concerning ADV Blissey as it does D/P Garchomp now... Blissey's never been banned and we left Tyranitar to its devices. What makes Garchomp any different?

uhh..lol Tyranitar hasn't been considered an Uber suspect for almost a year...where have you been in the last 6 months? That hype was before D/P even came out...when the community as a whole was notoriously wrong about pokemon tier placement (hi Rhyperior). I have a feeling that your opinions of Garchomp are being swayed by lack of experience. If I'm wrong let me know, but most of the people who are against Garchomp don't play enough to see it. Just look at the usage stats..There were less usages on Smogon's server and Garchomp gained an even BIGGER lead this month than it had last month, breaking its own record. It makes Blissey's lead from December (the last time any pokemon besides Garchomp held #1) look like a joke.

uhh..what do you think makes Garchomp different? Is that really a serious question?

Blissey and Tyranitar have glaringly obvious weaknesses, while Garchomp's weaknesses take multiple pokemon to exploit. Tyranitar and Blissey don't have the speed, defenses or ability to literally avoid their weaknesses. Both Tyranitar and Blissey have several 100% counters, while Garchomp puts a huge portion of an opponents team in jeopardy. Garchomp is much, much more overpowering than Tyranitar or Blissey ever could be. I agree that usage stats are not the only thing that should determine a pokemon's status....but really, if 19000 more people are using one pokemon over the second highest...that could point to something. Tyranitar and Blissey may have been centralizing factors in Adv, but this is still not an Adv discussion and I don't see why you keep bringing this up. The comparison is not valid, Garchomp possesses overpowering qualities that Ttar and Blissey wish they could have. Ttar and Bliss were used in Adv because they were great pokemon and had movepools to deal consistent damage no matter how the metagame shifted. They learned to adapt. Garchomp is used in D/P because it is overpowered and its standard moveset is uncounterable by any definition. Garchomp doesn't have to adapt to the metagame because it IS the metagame.

 

[Bourbon]

most of them are based around Garchomp and many of them come down to Garchomp speed ties. I can't even believe you would post something like this and expect anyone with knowledge of how d/p is actually played to take you seriously.

This has got to be the most "QFT" thing I have seen on Smogon ever. Higher up in the ladder, every team has Garchomp on it. Every team. Of course I had a Garchomp myself too.

Anyways, to sum it up, every match involved finding a way to get in your Yache Chomp safely, Swords Dance, kill their fast ice beamer (using the Yache for protection) and keep sweeping. Eventually it comes down to Garchomp vs. Garchomp. Whoever's Garchomp wins the coin flip wins the match, almost guarenteed. Most players simply give up the match if their Garchomp dies because without it, there is no hope of winning against a player who does have it.

I lost a match, five pokemon vs. one Garchomp because my Chomp missed as he Swords Danced, then he won the speed tie and killed me, and swept my entire team. The entire competitive game is basically your "five pokemon plus Garchomp" vs "their five pokemon plus Garchomp"

 

[RaikouLover]

Bull-fucking-shit.


You people need to stop overdramatizing Garchomp. Seriously, the game does NOT come down to Garchomp vs. Garchomp ties and shit. Especially not with Deoxys-E running around everywhere now. I use Garchomp on my team as a Choice Scarfer, and do perfectly fine without it and have no problems with other Garchomps. Any smart player knows that if you carry a slow, bulky team... you have Garchomp problems. However, if you've adapted and run a faster team, Yache chomp doesn't give you many problems. Garchomp rarely gets more than 1 kill against me.

Garchomp has plenty of ways to "deal" with it. Hell, the fact that simply placing a Scarf on its duplicate can handle him is all it takes. And before someone says "your using the Scarf just for other Garchomps" --- Fuck off, I use it because it is the nastiest one IMO. Its actually quite easy to make a successful Garchomp-less team... I have dozens of them and they do fine. Seriously, I'm sick of people bitching and whining about how tough Garchomp is. Honestly, Gyarados and Lucario make me shit my pants more than Garchomp does.

 

[Mr.E]

Scarfchomp? It beats Yache Chomp 100%! I mean, if Yache Chomp is most common and it always comes down to Garchomp vs. Garchomp, wouldn't using Scarfchomp be the better choice?

"I lost a match, five pokemon vs. one Garchomp because my Chomp missed as he Swords Danced..."

This sure looks like yet another "Garchomp is only broken because of Sand Veil" argument...

uhhh....are you serious?

Sand Veil isn't even close to the only thing that separates Garchomp from his contemporaries. If you really think that then I suggest you sign onto ShoddyBattle right now and watch how nearly every match plays out. Or better yet, play. hint: most of them are based around Garchomp and many of them come down to Garchomp speed ties. I can't even believe you would post something like this and expect anyone with knowledge of how d/p is actually played to take you seriously.

The recently quoted battle logs touted as "proof" that Garchomp is overbearing is based solely on the fact that, oh look, he dodged some crap and that allowed him to kick ass. Regardless of whether you agree with me or not, that's exactly how those logs were presented and that's all that I responded against.

Because Sand Stream isn't the problem. Sand Veil on Garchomp is. Sand Stream doesn't make Tyranitar broken, but Sand Veil helps make Garchomp broken. If a pokemon has an ability that makes it broken, it is that pokemon that is broken, not the move or the ability. Even if someone seriously believed that Sand Veil is the only thing making Garchomp broken, the fact is that it has Sand Veil and its broken. It doesn't matter if you think that's the only thing, because it still makes it broken.

No. Sand Stream is the problem. Sand Veil only helps makes Garchomp [arguably] broken because Sand Stream's permanent weather property allow it to be abused. Sand Stream has its own issues anyway; Tyranitar essentially has more stats than anyone else in OU by virtue of its automatic 1.5x SpDef self-buff, centralizes the metagame toward Sandstorm immunities more than Stealth Rock does away from Rock weaknesses, fucks up more item and moveset strategies (e.g. EndRev) and encourages Leftovers to nullify the damage.

So why would I want to ban Garchomp when getting rid of the underlying problem does the same thing to unbreak him and fixes a host of other problems in the meantime? Of course, banning T-Tar has its own problem in that Hippowdon would also need to be banished in order to remove Sand Stream from the OU metagame...

That said, I don't think either one should actually be banned. ;/

Blissey and Tyranitar have glaringly obvious weaknesses, while Garchomp's weaknesses take multiple pokemon to exploit. Tyranitar and Blissey don't have the speed, defenses or ability to literally avoid their weaknesses. Both Tyranitar and Blissey have several 100% counters, while Garchomp puts a huge portion of an opponents team in jeopardy. Garchomp is much, much more overpowering than Tyranitar or Blissey ever could be. I agree that usage stats are not the only thing that should determine a pokemon's status....but really, if 19000 more people are using one pokemon over the second highest...that could point to something. Tyranitar and Blissey may have been centralizing factors in Adv, but this is still not an Adv discussion and I don't see why you keep bringing this up. The comparison is not valid, Garchomp possesses overpowering qualities that Ttar and Blissey wish they could have. Ttar and Bliss were used in Adv because they were great pokemon and had movepools to deal consistent damage no matter how the metagame shifted. They learned to adapt. Garchomp is used in D/P because it is overpowered and its standard moveset is uncounterable by any definition. Garchomp doesn't have to adapt to the metagame because it IS the metagame.

Tyranitar and Blissey don't have defense? Tyranitar has better defensive capability on both spectrums than Garchomp without Sand Stream. With it, he's on par with the likes of Cresselia or Snorlax at taking special hits and can even survive two hits from SE STAB attacks (like Starmie's Surf). His "exploitable" weakness is solved with a Chople Berry just as Garchomp solves his with a Yache Berry and his amazing defenses allow him to set up multiple DDs far easier than the previously mentioned Salamence/Dragonite. Not weak to SR like those two, either. As for Blissey, its defensive capability is the entire reason it's considered overpowered!

Many pokémon have many movesets that are "uncounterable" by the standard definition, that a true counter can switch into the pokémon and still come out on top. And what of the arguably overpowered Blissey, who can't even properly be "countered" because it doesn't go on the offensive in the first place? That's not a convincing argument at all.

Better "proof" than dubious conclusions based on raw usage would be to show the use of Garchomp at the top of the ladder. (As much as I personally hate ladders myself, it's what we have and mostly what we're going by now...) It doesn't matter that Garchomp is so heavily used if there are an acceptable number of top teams that manage to be successful without him, essentially proving non-brokenness. Proving otherwise, that Garchomp IS broken, is much more difficult...