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Garchomp, the most broken pokemon in OU.

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Which is exactly why it is so broken. Hippowdon, considered the best physical wall, SETS UP a double team for garchomp. Tangrowth, (the second best IMO) has a chance of being 2HKOd, and takes huge damage from fire blast. Cress's standard sets can be 2HKOd by outrage, too.

Well, most of you who "have no problems with garchomp" have probably been swept by it before. I know I have problems beating it...

Anyway, after bronzong comes in, then what does it do? hidden power ice? gyro ball?? The new garchomp set with a salac berry probably isn't even 2HKOd by either move.
 
seds said:
Which is exactly why it is so broken. Hippowdon, considered the best physical wall, SETS UP a double team for garchomp. Tangrowth, (the second best IMO) has a chance of being 2HKOd, and takes huge damage from fire blast. Cress's standard sets can be 2HKOd by outrage, too.

Well, most of you who "have no problems with garchomp" have probably been swept by it before. I know I have problems beating it...

Anyway, after bronzong comes in, then what does it do? hidden power ice? gyro ball?? The new garchomp set with a salac berry probably isn't even 2HKOd by either move.
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Really though, you can just use Gliscor to fight Sand Veil with Sand Veil. Gyro Ball will still be a solid 3HKO on Garchomp with Bronzong, which means that Bronzong can break the subs every time, making it really hard for Garchomp to get a chance to Swords Dance.

To counter Garchomp, I'd personally use a Sub-passing Gliscor, for the Sand Veil reason. Gliscor can also be a Swords Dancer, and can OHKO with Ice Fang after a Swords Dance.

IMO, if people are required to use a Sandstreamer just make Garchomp a really big threat, then you might as well use a Baton Passer to make Marowak a really big threat.

What I'm saying is, that a lot of pokemon can run the Ice/Fighting combo. Basically, this means that if you have Hippo/Chomp, you have a dual weakness to Ice, and if you have Tar/Chomp, you have a weakness to the Ice/Fighting combo.

It seems that a lot of people that are doing calcs are assuming that Garchomp has gotten a Swords Dance off. I don't think it's fair to assume this and just automatically say that something like Cresselia can't counter it, because a lot can happen in that 1 turn that it takes to set up that Swords Dance. Heck, it can be statused in that turn, Encored, Tricked, Focus Punched, something else could set up on it, etc.

If Sub is a big problem, Cloyster can Icicle Spear it to hell (not that many people would want to use it), you can Encore it while it's subbing, Haze it (always works regardless of Sand Veil), Taunt it's Swords Dances with something like Gliscor, set up a Sub of your own, etc.

IMO, Garchomp is good, but it's just like any other Swords Dancing pokemon. It still takes a turn to set that Swords Dance up, and should not automatically be assumed that it has done so.
 
I hate Garchomp. I hate how it looks, I hate how good it is, I hate that it is more popular than Dragonite and Salamance, I hate that it outclasses flygon, etc. I just really dont like it and I would never be caught using it on a team.
 
Gyro Ball will still be a solid 3HKO on Garchomp with Bronzong, which means that Bronzong can break the subs every time, making it really hard for Garchomp to get a chance to Swords Dance.
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In all fairness Lv2 Outrage is also a 2HKO on Bronzong too and most of the time Bronzong will be the one switching into Garchomp. Not the other way round...

It seems that a lot of people that are doing calcs are assuming that Garchomp has gotten a Swords Dance off.
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Why not? Realistically speaking thats how fast Chomp sets up if it even feels like it, one turn. It is the type of thing that forces switches on many things to boot so its not like its working hard for its one turn.

Taylor said:
Wait, you can have too much speed? I disagree.

I am sorry for going off topic, but Mewtwo's 130 Base is not overkill. I mean, with Choice Scarf, look at what you can outspeed.
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The question should be what can it outspeed that is 'threatening'.

Answer can be summed up as other Uber Scarf users and Deoxys.
 
This is including all scenarios? You can't assume you're at full HP as much as you do, so having a speed advantage is giving you that room to work with.

Having priority helps common situations where your opponent can't surpass you even with Choice Scarf at their disposal. With Scarf and the speed, you can be certain that you're going to strike first which helps so much.

(Need to stop going off topic).
 
Blue Harvest said:
But Mewtwo has Recover, incredible speed, rediculous Special Attack, a great movepool, and no 4x weaknesses.


Ok, Garchomp has no counters. My point is it isn't unbeatable. A lot of things have no counters. What counters specs Lucario? Spiritomb is close, but Dark Pulse will hit hard.


Ok, tell me what can safely switch in on this...


Porygon Z @ Life Orb
Timid
252 SA / 252 Speed

Hyper Beam
Nasty Plot
Shadow Ball
Ice Beam

Hyper Beam does 140.34% - 164.99% to a 0/0 Garchomp without a Nasty Plot. Without perfect prediction, nothing in the game can counter this. You can revenge kill it, but you can do the same to Garchomp after Outrage. Yes, its true Garchomp is tougher, but Garchomp is also 4x weak to one of the most common attacks in the game.

As one of my above post asked, if you lost to Garchomp why? Sand Veil is really just luck. Stone Edge is just as bad, but its still in use.


EDIT: Wait! Fuck Garchomp! I don't use him, and it would make my life a whole lot easier with him gone.

Ban him if you will. No problems with me.
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HOLY CRAP! That's my Porygon-Z set, and I thought it sucked! I was gonna get rid of hyper beam and change it's name from "SHOOPdWOOP" to something else.

Anyways, I'm sure that 80% of the users on Smogon would prefer it gone. Once again, if Garchomp was slower, frailer, didn't have awesoem STAB or didn't have sand veil, I think it'd be OK. But, this isn't the case. Garchomp has too much little bonuses that make it broken IMO. Not only that, but it looks like Mickey Mouse, sounds like a supressed fart, and it says "screw you flygon", who is one of my fave pokes.

Who wants to do a poll. We have discussed this to death. Look. Twenty-four pages with approx 25 posts on each. Thats like 600 posts of discussion. Why don't we have a poll on it?
 
Just out of curiosity, how many people in favor of banning Garchomp to ubers would change their minds if Sand Veil was no longer in play? Now I'm not going to suggest that we remove Sand Veil, or anything rediculous like that. I'm wondering is if it's really Garchomp everyone has a problem with, or if it's Sand Veil.
 
Definately Sand Viel.

Its great when you completely outplay someone, and garchomp is the last man standing... and your garchomp counter misses on a 100% ice beam while he sets up a SD and comes back from 5 down all because of luck.. its happened to too many people too many times and its bullshit. Sand Viel should maybe be considered breaking evasion clause?

Garchomp in itself is still threatening, but not too much to handle. It's only when hax costs you the game that makes him deadlier.
 
Jibaku said:
Tyranitar :D
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Assuming Porygon Z Nasty Plots on the switch in, Hyper Beam does... Crap Tyranitar survives regardless.


Ok, replace Ice Beam with HP fighting. What now Jibaku!? :)




To everyone who complains about Sand Veil, 80% of the time you win. You only have a 4% chance of missing twice in a row, so its not like Sand Veil will open a gaping hole in your team if you're prepared.
 
Bologo said:
If Sub is a big problem, Cloyster can Icicle Spear it to hell (not that many people would want to use it), you can Encore it while it's subbing, Haze it (always works regardless of Sand Veil), Taunt it's Swords Dances with something like Gliscor, set up a Sub of your own, etc.
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I think way back in like last March it was found out that the Standard Swords Dance Garchomp could 2HKO Cloyster with Fire Blast. Otherwise, Cloyster would work, but its Special Defense lets it down too much.
 
Fenikkusu said:
Then you've got a 3/4 chance of coming in safely with a gengar. ;)
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And you have a 4/5 chance of killing Garchomp. Hah!

But yeah, the Porygon Z set requires perfect prediction. Garchomp... not so much. The only time i've ever had Garchomp trouble was a game where a Weavile froze two of my pokes in a row, then Ice Fang missed Chomp letting it finish off my frozen team.

But that was more blame on the Weavile.
 
Hyra said:
I think way back in like last March it was found out that the Standard Swords Dance Garchomp could 2HKO Cloyster with Fire Blast. Otherwise, Cloyster would work, but its Special Defense lets it down too much.
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That's not actually true. Pretty much all Cloysters will run max HP, and the only Garchomp that really runs any special attack EVs (or a non negative SAtk nature) is ChainChomp.

0 SAtk Garchomp with a -SAtk nature using Fire Blast vs. 252 HP Cloyster
= 39.80% - 47.04%

Fire Blast is a 3HKO, while Cloyster can easily 2HKO Garchomp.

Draco Meteor is a little bitch though, Cloyster needs an additional 120 sp def EVs to make Draco Meteor a 3HKO if it hits consecutive times because of the special attack drop each time.
 
Considering Cloyster has absolute pig feces for Special Defense, those stats are impressive.

How much damage is done by Outrage or Earthquake? Is Cloyster actually a Garchomp counter?
 
Blue Harvest said:
Considering Cloyster has absolute pig feces for Special Defense, those stats are impressive.

How much damage is done by Outrage or Earthquake? Is Cloyster actually a Garchomp counter?
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Outrage on an Impish 252 HP Cloyster from:

76 Adamant Salac Garchomp (Suicide Sweeper):
34.54-40.46%
252 Jolly Garchomp:
35.86-42.11%
252 Jolly LO Garchomp:
46.38-54.61%

(Earthquake is 30 BP weaker--counting STAB--than Outrage, so you should get the idea...)

Obviously Cloyster isn't going to be able to switch in after a Swords Dance, but there isn't a whole lot that can...
 
Blue Harvest said:
Considering Cloyster has absolute pig feces for Special Defense, those stats are impressive.

How much damage is done by Outrage or Earthquake? Is Cloyster actually a Garchomp counter?
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Slightly less impressive when you realize that he ran a -satk nature instead of -spdef, but somewhat I suppose.

Cloyster's SR weak and the fact that Garchomp could run rockslide/stone edge prevent it from being any real counter imo.

(SR can somewhat be assumed since it's common and cloyster is a spinner. ;p )
 
Hmmm... I just got 50.33% - 59.21% for outrage... 252/252 positive. But that's adamant band... Unfortunately, ice beam does only 72.83% - 85.71%, so one would need ice shard too to finish chomp off.
 
"Standard" Cloysters (the ones on our analysis) run 252 HP / 56 SpA / 200 SpD to add some punch to Ice Beam and compensate for that piss-poor 45 SpD (like Def EVs on Blissey).
 
seds said:
Hmmm... I just got 50.33% - 59.21% for outrage... 252/252 positive. But that's adamant band... Unfortunately, ice beam does only 72.83% - 85.71%, so one would need ice shard too to finish chomp off.
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Cloyster @ Leftovers
Relaxed
252 HP / 252 Defense

Ice Beam (Blizzard if Hail team)
Ice Shard
Rest
Sleep Talk

And we have a Garchomp counter! Or at least a Garchomp "buffer".
 
@COTH

Yeah, but that's more for the UU metagame. In OU, it would actually want to run more defense EVs, since things hits much much harder there.
 
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