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Garchomp Voting to start on September 5th

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skiddle said:
I mean, seriously, it's NOT fun to have to see the same pokemon over and over in a different combination, and you are basically forced to use them as well to win. To make matters worse, I pretty much have to play this insanely boring game if I want to have a chance at voting.
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Jumpman16 said:
If you don't care enough to meet the requirements until 4-5 days before the voting occurs, why should we expect to believe that you care enough about improving competitive pokemon?
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newsflash: competitive pokemon isn't all fun and games. you honestly cannot just be realizing that now, can you?
 
newsflash: people play games to have fun. Why would I play pokemon if I didn't enjoy it?


I'm just saying that having to "level grind" facing the same six pokemon over and over again isn't entertaining. Do you enjoy monotony? I most certainly don't.


I'm all for playing pokemon competitively... but the standard ladder is seriously centralized. Maybe I'm spoiled by the suspect ladder, and how fun it was, but having to go back to that garchomp infested hell hole isn't what I would call fun.

And if I'm not playing the game to have fun, why am I doing it... I'm most certainly not accomplishing anything important.
 
But I already wrote mine! That sucks. It took me like 2 days...

If we're just short of the ladder, can we, like, substitute reasoned arguments for that little bit of ladder mishap?
 
You seem... confused, skiddle. By posting in this particular thread that you can't stand Standard ladder, you seem to be railing against the idea that you should have ample experience with both metagames to be able to vote on Garchomp's status. But the entire point of the suspect ladder is to compare the METAGAME DIFFERENCES between standard and Garchomp-less. It's easy to figure out how powerful Garchomp is, but that in and of itself was not enough to propel it to ubers.

"And if I'm not playing the game to have fun, why am I doing it... I'm most certainly not accomplishing anything important."
You would be doing it to have the right to vote on Garchomp's tier placement, which seems pretty important to you considering you have 0 fun playing Standard ladder.
 
I'm not confused... I just posted to say I was giving up and I guess we blew it way out of proportion : /

sorry guys, back on topic please?
 
Oh man this is coming close, school coming up in a day, away for one more day. When I left though suspect was in good shape with deviation of somewhere around 66 or something, and then I can jump on the standard and polish that off.

Oh, and cool thing it's going to be just a simple "yes" or "no" vote. Reading through the Deoxys and Wobuffett process, this way looks to be way more conveniant for a lot of people.
 
skiddle said:
newsflash: people play games to have fun. Why would I play pokemon if I didn't enjoy it?


I'm just saying that having to "level grind" facing the same six pokemon over and over again isn't entertaining. Do you enjoy monotony? I most certainly don't.


I'm all for playing pokemon competitively... but the standard ladder is seriously centralized. Maybe I'm spoiled by the suspect ladder, and how fun it was, but having to go back to that garchomp infested hell hole isn't what I would call fun.

And if I'm not playing the game to have fun, why am I doing it... I'm most certainly not accomplishing anything important.
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haha okay, reread that last line and try to tell me your "anything important" cannot be directly applied to your vote. if you don't want to take the necessary measures to be assured a say in competitive pokemon that's fine, but that means you don't get to complain if you don't meet the requirements to vote.

those of you who feel the same way need to take a step back and realize what the staff has done here before bitching. we're not just deciding on things in PR because then you guys would bitch about how we just move things around the way colin was taken to task for, who appointed them anyway, why don't we get a say, etc. we are letting the masses have a say, in pretty much the most fair and fun way possible: go play a game. seriously, what more could you rationally ask for? the requirement is based upon proving your proficiency at a game that you're supposed to both love and care about in the first place. if you're questioning your desire to fulfill this requirement, maybe you don't deserve to vote. do you think you're the only person who is tired of seeing garchomp? and for the millionth time, people really, really need to remember that "fun" and "entertainment" do not necessarily align with smogon's philosophy. i've posted that like half a dozen times in the past few months it seems

and for some perspective, do you honestly think me having to create and moderate all these threads is all "fun" either? did you think it was "entertaining" for me to have to tally votes for eight hours in the dx-s bold vote two months ago? stop complaining, stop pretending this is some big huge impossible task that we're forcing you to do, and certainly stop thinking we're forcing you to do anything in the first place. if you do not want to do what it takes to have a say in competitive pokemon, don't. but don't bitch either. maybe you really don't care enough about competitive pokemon as much as you think you do or as much as you would have others believe.
 
One COULD make an argument here that if Garchomp is so broken that luck makes him win way more often than not, that a high Standard ranking is less plausible because Garchomps introduce an element of luck that's hard to stop. After all, if Garchomp's really Uber and uncounterable doesn't it come down to luck who wins in Official? I don't agree entirely with this argument, I'm just saying it could be made by someone.

This argument could really apply in some other scenarios too. Let's pretend for a minute Deoxys-A is a suspect. Every team ends up with a Deoxys-A on it as it's clearly an Uber. Winning or losing in these points could often come down to speed ties and guessing the move being used. I mean, for these kind of matches it wouldn't be fair to basically reward the dumb luck of whose Deoxys-A ExtremeSpeed goes first, or who guessed the attack right and switched in Spiritomb, Dugrtio, or some normal priority attacker?

To an extent, this could apply to all matches. So many of them are decided on critical hits here, a flinch there, that if you REALLY felt like stretching the argument a case could be made that luck ruins the 1650 system. Of course, this last idea is a bit far fetched for even my radical tastes.

I remember chaos saying something along the lines of "if you give it your all, you'll get to vote". Was that meant to be interpreted as "1650 is easy to get to don't worry" or "If you tried really hard and fall short of it, we may let you vote"? I'm pretty certain it's the former, which is why i've been desperately, aggressively laddering lately rather than just battling.

I've heard a lot about laddering being easy, that we should be able to experiment and battle to our heart's content and then if you're decent you'll end up with 1650 anyway... but only 21 people have that stat. It seems like the assertation to "not worry about your ladder rank" doesn't really work, at least for people not in the top tier of battling on smogon. Though I do admit getting to 1650 with a well built team isn't terribly difficult.
 
I was just curious how it was decided that 1650/60 scale was a good way to determine who should vote? Not the process, I meant the actual numbers. I also feel like it kinda sucks that people don't have to give any arguments. It's very possible one could reach that rating but have terrible reasonings for their vote.
 
Caelum said:
I was just curious how it was decided that 1650/60 scale was a good way to determine who should vote? Not the process, I meant the actual numbers. I also feel like it kinda sucks that people don't have to give any arguments. It's very possible one could reach that rating but have terrible reasonings for their vote.
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We basically discussed them and agreed on them by looking at the stats of the players on the standard ladder.
 
We are not looking for commentary on the process. This thread was a courtesy announcement (not a discussion in any way) for all users so that they knew the requirements for voting.
 
Chris is me said:
One COULD make an argument here that if Garchomp is so broken that luck makes him win way more often than not, that a high Standard ranking is less plausible because Garchomps introduce an element of luck that's hard to stop. After all, if Garchomp's really Uber and uncounterable doesn't it come down to luck who wins in Official? I don't agree entirely with this argument, I'm just saying it could be made by someone.

This argument could really apply in some other scenarios too. Let's pretend for a minute Deoxys-A is a suspect. Every team ends up with a Deoxys-A on it as it's clearly an Uber. Winning or losing in these points could often come down to speed ties and guessing the move being used. I mean, for these kind of matches it wouldn't be fair to basically reward the dumb luck of whose Deoxys-A ExtremeSpeed goes first, or who guessed the attack right and switched in Spiritomb, Dugrtio, or some normal priority attacker?

To an extent, this could apply to all matches. So many of them are decided on critical hits here, a flinch there, that if you REALLY felt like stretching the argument a case could be made that luck ruins the 1650 system. Of course, this last idea is a bit far fetched for even my radical tastes.

I remember chaos saying something along the lines of "if you give it your all, you'll get to vote". Was that meant to be interpreted as "1650 is easy to get to don't worry" or "If you tried really hard and fall short of it, we may let you vote"? I'm pretty certain it's the former, which is why i've been desperately, aggressively laddering lately rather than just battling.

I've heard a lot about laddering being easy, that we should be able to experiment and battle to our heart's content and then if you're decent you'll end up with 1650 anyway... but only 21 people have that stat. It seems like the assertation to "not worry about your ladder rank" doesn't really work, at least for people not in the top tier of battling on smogon. Though I do admit getting to 1650 with a well built team isn't terribly difficult.
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First of all, you only need to have an average of 1650 or more for your rating, which looks like XXXX-XXXX. You also get the deviation of 60 or less from the same rating. It's not the Conservative Rating Estimate, which is just a number. Way more than 21 people have that stat.

Anyway, I've met the requirements for the Standard Ladder, and I don't think that Garchomp makes the outcome of a game overly dependent on luck. I rarely see speed ties, and "guessing moves" is prediction which most people think is a good thing.

It just overcentralizes in a balanced metagame, which is part of the definition for uber. Not quite as much as DEoxys-A would, but it's enough.
 
Qzahk said:
First of all, you only need to have an average of 1650 or more for your rating, which looks like XXXX-XXXX. You also get the deviation of 60 or less from the same rating. It's not the Conservative Rating Estimate, which is just a number. Way more than 21 people have that stat.

Uh... go back a page and read the part that said as of that post only 21 users had met the requirements. I read the OP, and I don't get why you thought that I didn't.

Anyway, I've met the requirements for the Standard Ladder, and I don't think that Garchomp makes the outcome of a game overly dependent on luck. I rarely see speed ties, and "guessing moves" is prediction which most people think is a good thing.

It's a good thing to be able to do more often than not, yes, but sometimes it can be just as skill based as, say, Rock-Paper-Scissors.

It just overcentralizes in a balanced metagame, which is part of the definition for uber. Not quite as much as DEoxys-A would, but it's enough.

There is no single definition of Uber. Define "overcentralizes". How much is too much? I don't think you should back up your claim as that would turn this into Garchomp Thread 9000, but you shouldn't make a claim unless you're in an environment in which you're allowed to back it up. (by the way, I agree with you).
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Usage stats for the new game will be released before voting, no? I want to at least take a look at them before I vote / cry about not being able to.
 
Oh, sorry.

I assumed that Garchomp overcentralizing was something that most people already agreed on, it wasn't really a claim.
 
Hnn..

Standard Rating: 1713-1808 = 1760.5 - Standard Deviation: 47.5
Suspect Rating: 1718-1857 = 1779 - Suspect Deviation: 69.5

Need to play suspect a little to lower the Deviation or whatever...
 
KD24 said:
If you mean for the 1 ladder, then yes, but if you mean for both ladders then probably not :/
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Also good to keep in mind that these are only people laddering on the same account. Seems like it's common practice these days to rotate between 6 equally-ranked accounts depending on the waxing and waning of planets.
 
Here's the current list of players that meet the voting criteria as of September 1st, 11:30pm US Pacific time.
Code: 
+-----------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+
|                 | Standard   | Standard   | Suspect    | Suspect    |
| Name            | Rating     | Deviation  | Rating     | Deviation  |
+-----------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+
| AEOLUS          | 1,770.42   |   56.17    | 1,746.34   |   58.00    |
| BOLT.           | 1,791.31   |   46.56    | 1,675.40   |   50.90    |
| ELEVATOR MUSIC  | 1,771.36   |   44.52    | 1,691.07   |   45.76    |
| GIFFCA89        | 1,688.81   |   30.83    | 1,678.01   |   31.17    |
| GREAT SAGE      | 1,758.94   |   38.80    | 1,747.33   |   45.52    |
| HAVAK           | 1,655.97   |   51.81    | 1,679.09   |   54.07    |
| HIPMONLEE       | 1,727.93   |   50.61    | 1,768.88   |   39.39    |
| IGGYBOT         | 1,759.46   |   52.26    | 1,754.80   |   58.94    |
| IMPERFECTLUCK.  | 1,752.82   |   58.10    | 1,850.43   |   45.39    |
| INFINITY        | 1,662.55   |   38.64    | 1,671.10   |   46.23    |
| JUSTINAWE       | 1,716.10   |   21.45    | 1,670.64   |   42.19    |
| KD24            | 1,796.37   |   56.65    | 1,653.49   |   32.63    |
| MIEN            | 1,827.77   |   38.70    | 1,711.07   |   51.20    |
| MUSICFURY       | 1,712.99   |   56.04    | 1,686.50   |   58.14    |
| OUTLINE         | 1,854.21   |   57.78    | 1,765.69   |   55.72    |
| PB-LIMITLESS II | 1,782.91   |   53.40    | 1,687.97   |   48.63    |
| SEIKEN ENHASA   | 1,704.49   |   57.95    | 1,656.35   |   57.00    |
| SLOBROKING      | 1,723.91   |   47.00    | 1,747.71   |   38.64    |
| SLYTHERIN       | 1,677.90   |   55.56    | 1,774.56   |   59.10    |
| SNES MASTER KI  | 1,718.78   |   47.26    | 1,708.70   |   40.19    |
| SONIKKU         | 1,719.59   |   51.06    | 1,665.50   |   35.04    |
| SYBERIA         | 1,659.21   |   29.98    | 1,656.20   |   33.28    |
| THE ELITIST     | 1,865.31   |   45.13    | 1,702.40   |   55.69    |
| TOR             | 1,792.66   |   57.57    | 1,848.90   |   59.48    |
| TWIST OF FATE   | 1,688.91   |   43.68    | 1,773.06   |   41.84    |
| WDRO            | 1,780.90   |   49.73    | 1,796.41   |   53.52    |
+-----------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+
26 rows
 
C'mon guys, 26 voters is no where near enough input to represent a whole community. This is your chance to influence the future of the metagame so pull your fingers out and get a move on!
 
Lee said:
C'mon guys, 26 voters is no where near enough input to represent a whole community. This is your chance to influence the future of the metagame so pull your fingers out and get a move on!
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I think you'll see a lot of last minute entries. I know I solidified my standard ladder score this morning and I plan to do that on suspect tomorrow so it's likely a lot of others are doing that as well. Or, at least I hope so.
 
I have a question.

Suppose I was to meet the requirements now and it was picked up by Doug's statistics tonight but I didnt make the requirements on the 5th (like I dropped my rating), would I still be eligible to vote because my requirements were met at one point and were acknowledged by Doug's statistics then?
 
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