Gen III Battle Frontier Discussion and Records

I‘ll go straight.
Because it's not worth for switching even by facing a Alakazam/Mr.mime(which might be an ice pucher.etc), taking a free psychic is much more serious. I want all my three to be at full health so they can use more rollout(but if water type, that’s another story).
And remember? The modest nature only has a 35% chance to use an Attack move, 12% chance in a row.
What about bulky water types who can still take more than 2 or 3 rollouts? Since this team relies on consecutive chains landing successfully 90% accurate moves, how would you solve this issue? What are the possibilities that you'll land all of the hits you need? Take into account that Pokemon like Vaporeon, Suicune and Milotic can cream this team due to the lack of a Water resist and these usually pack Ice moves to kill Salamence. Miltank has no SpD investment and Swampert can't touch them. Additionally, what's the plan with Double Teamers considering that if luck is not in your favor, these Pokemon can get out of control? Confusion? Attract? Poison?

Additionally, how do you actually beat Spencer's Silver team with this team?
 
I noticed that my record wasn't added to the OP. Was this a mistake? Is there anything I need to add to my post?
Hello, I decided not to add this streak to the leader-board since it was done on an unofficial ROM. Considering that Russian was not ever released as an official language for Pokemon, there's no guarantee that whoever made the translation has not modified anything from the original ROM, even if the only changes are the characters used on the game. Emerald uses a single PRNG to handle every process on the game, so there's a valid risk. You're more than welcome to make another submission using an English ROM instead (please don't request links in here as it goes against the forum rules). Considering that this was never covered on the OP's rules, I'll update the thread with a small disclaimer regarding fan translations or modified ROMs.

Additionally, this goes for everyone else. Please don't fill the thread with posts as to why your streak have not being added yet. I have been busy more than usual and if you still don't see your streak it's due to one of the following reasons:

  • I have been busy and I haven't had enough time to update the leaderboard.
  • I do not trust your streak and I reserve myself the right to ask any questions in order to prove the legitimacy of it. If I'm not convinced by your answers, I'll not add it.
  • You missed out some of the proof requirements on the streak to be leaderboard eligible.
  • You used Pokemon that breaks the leaderboard rules such as hacked pokemon, illegal moves, etc.

If by any chance you see your streak not added yet after a long period of time (more than a week) and you haven't received a reply from me yet, then you're more than welcome to send me a private message so I can take a look into it. Other than that, please be patient since the only spare time I have is when I'm out of my work schedule.
 
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Hello, I decided not to add this streak to the leader-board since it was done on an unofficial ROM. Considering that Russian was not ever released as an official language for Pokemon, there's no guarantee that whoever made the translation has not modified anything from the original ROM, even if the only changes are the characters used on the game. Emerald uses a single PRNG to handle every process on the game, so there's a valid risk. You're more than welcome to make another submission using an English ROM instead (please don't request links in here as it goes against the forum rules). Considering that this was never covered on the OP's rules, I'll update the thread with a small disclaimer regarding fan translations or unofficial ROMs.

Additionally, this goes for everyone else. Please don't fill the thread with posts as to why your streak have not being added yet. I have been busy more than usual and if you still don't see your streak it's due to one of the following reasons:

  • I have been busy and I haven't had enough time to update the leaderboard.
  • I do not trust your streak and I reserve myself the right to ask any questions in order to prove the legitimacy of it. If I'm not convinced by your answers, I'll not add it.
  • You missed out some of the proof requirements on the streak to be leaderboard eligible.
  • You used Pokemon that breaks the leaderboard rules such as hacked pokemon, illegal moves, etc.

If by any chance you see your streak not added yet after a long period of time (more than a week) and you haven't received a reply from me yet, then you're more than welcome to send me a private message so I can take a look into it. Other than that, please be patient since the only spare time I have is when I'm out of my work schedule.
Hm... okay. That's disappointing, but understandable. I originally started playing on this ROM to help me master the language, and I don't feel like putting in the effort to start all over again on another game. If I ever do, however, I'll post it here.
 
I just won the Gold symbol (and got a 74 win streak) in the Battle Tower - Open Level Singles (Emerald - playing on an emulator).

Breloom is one my favorite mons in Gen3 so I definitely wanted to use one for the frontier. Didn't feel like using Lati@s, so Starmie became my special attacker. Snorlax is the bulky setup sweeper. All mons are RNG bred on Emerald.

AZURA (Starmie) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Natural Cure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 6 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt

My lead pokemon. Typical SPIT Starmie. Lum berry to avoid status/confusion. 2HKOs most things due to insane coverage and nice attacking stats. Modest nature because Timid doesn't hit hard enough for my taste.


WRATH (Breloom) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Effect Spore
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 6 Def / 204 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spore
- Substitute
- Mach Punch
- Focus Punch

The annoyer/hard-hitter. Spore if the foe is slower (or even faster but cannot KO back). Then sub up. Then use Focus Punch. Watch them take huge damage (even if resisted). Mach Punch is there for finshing off weakened mons. I originally had Leech Seed over Mach Punch. But I couldn't use it as often as I would like to.


SLOTH (Snorlax) (M) @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 136 HP / 96 Atk / 60 Def / 212 SpD / 6 Spe
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Rest
- Body Slam
- Shadow Ball

CurseLax. Switch it in on weak special attackers who cant 3HKO you. Start setting up. Heal up if you are too low on HP. Return might be better over Body Slam, but I like the paralysis chance. Shadow Ball is for beating Ghosts and Anabel's Alakazam/Latios.
IDK what I'm doing with the EV's. 1 speed point to outrun Anabel's Snorlax.

Strategy - Lead Starmie. 2HKO/3HKO most things. If you feel you can't OHKO/2HKO (and would get KOd back instead) then switch to Breloom or Snorlax. If Starmie barely misses the KO, then finish off with Mach Punch. Snorlax can set up on weak special attackers.

Potential threats -
Quick Claw: Sometimes it just happens. This team is not really built for long streaks. I just wanted to reach 70 and challenge Anabel for the Gold symbol.

Shedinja: Snorlax is the only one who can damage it. So try not to throw away Snorlax early.

Here's a screenshot of the streak and a video of wins 71-74. Lost because of my own misplays. Today I learned that in Gen 3, the opponent's recoil self-KO ends the turn and doesn't let you use Rest to heal up.
 

Attachments

Hi all, I really liked Actaeon's monotype challenge and wanted to take a stab at part of it myself. I'm trying the flying type team. I managed to get 72 wins at the Battle Tower lvl 50 (emulator) from one attempt with this team.


Salamence Choice Band (adamant)
HP Flying / earthquake / brick break / hyper beam
EV's 252 Atk / 4 def / 252 spe


Zapdos Leftovers (timid)
Protect / substitute / rest / thunderbolt
EV's 252 Hp / 4 def / 252 spe


Gyarados Lum Berry (careful)
dragon dance / rest / hp flying / earthquake
EV's 180 Hp / 252 def / 74 sdf

The team relies mostly on zapdos to pp-stall and then gyarados to setup once they are struggling. Against some pokemon salamence OHKO's them then does a chunk to the next pokemon, allowing zapdos to revenge kill. Most physical attackers are much easier for the team to handle because of the double intimidate and some battles can be very fun when you need to switch out repeatedly. The main weakness of the team is fast special attackers starmie, latios, latias, gengar, and alakazam. In that case I sacrifice salamence for some damage and the hope zapdos can outspeed and outstall. So far I have always been able to outspeed with zapdos but its still very hard to outstall them.
I finally lost to a latias with ice beam / dragon claw / psychic / thunderbolt. Turn one I use salamance hp flying (about 65%) and latias kills it with an ice beam. I switch in zapdos and manage to pp stall ice beam and some of her other moves. I eventually need to rest without a substitute and zapdos cant withstand 2 dragon claws and a thunderbolt. Then I switch in gyarados and assume all is lost. I use hp flying, Latias uses thunderbolt first and gyarados survives on 10 hp (what a beast) but doesn't even kill with hp flying. So I might have actually won if I used dragon dance instead
I would try to give zapdos some more special defensive bulk and perhaps gyrados as well. It's possible salamence could be a different pokemon or defensive instead, because sometimes he feels like a wasted slot. It's possible moltres could replace zapdos, but the slight decrease in speed worries me
The flying typing is indeed very challenging. Flying is naturally weak to rock ice and electric. Those three types are some of the most powerfull attacking types in the game. And in particular ice and electric is really hard to handle. Every single flying type is either weak to ice or electric and there are many very fast and powerful pokemon that know both thunderbolt and ice beam. Anyways I'm going to keep trying flying teams because I'm not satisfied yet. Also Actaeon how high did you get your flying type teams?
 
I'm really excited to share that GUCCI GANG has hit 60 on-going tournament wins!! After some failed attempts and getting involved in other projects, my streak has reached again its previous benchmark. I had been working on this streak during my free time after work and I had been grinding wins slowly throughout the last month but didn't wanted to publish something at least until I was close to come back to the previous record.

Having my DS Lite is a true blessing (I wish I had a backlit GBA SP but sometimes you can't have everything in life). Either way, I'll update my streak whenever I have time and hopefully the team is able to hit 100 wins as the minimum objective.

RE: Slaking, I've been using both Aerial Ace and Hyper Beam. Hyper Beam is an insanely powerful nuke that OHKOs anything that is not resistant or immune to the move. However, AA is a nice tranquilizer when you face Pokemon like Alakazam4 or Gardevoir2/4/8 who had been weakened previously and guarantee a hit. Having Aerial Ace also puts me at a very easy state of mind against Ludicolo 4.

 
Hi all, I really liked Actaeon's monotype challenge and wanted to take a stab at part of it myself. I'm trying the flying type team. I managed to get 72 wins at the Battle Tower lvl 50 (emulator) from one attempt with this team.


Salamence Choice Band (adamant)
HP Flying / earthquake / brick break / hyper beam
EV's 252 Atk / 4 def / 252 spe


Zapdos Leftovers (timid)
Protect / substitute / rest / thunderbolt
EV's 252 Hp / 4 def / 252 spe


Gyarados Lum Berry (careful)
dragon dance / rest / hp flying / earthquake
EV's 180 Hp / 252 def / 74 sdf

The team relies mostly on zapdos to pp-stall and then gyarados to setup once they are struggling. Against some pokemon salamence OHKO's them then does a chunk to the next pokemon, allowing zapdos to revenge kill. Most physical attackers are much easier for the team to handle because of the double intimidate and some battles can be very fun when you need to switch out repeatedly. The main weakness of the team is fast special attackers starmie, latios, latias, gengar, and alakazam. In that case I sacrifice salamence for some damage and the hope zapdos can outspeed and outstall. So far I have always been able to outspeed with zapdos but its still very hard to outstall them.
I finally lost to a latias with ice beam / dragon claw / psychic / thunderbolt. Turn one I use salamance hp flying (about 65%) and latias kills it with an ice beam. I switch in zapdos and manage to pp stall ice beam and some of her other moves. I eventually need to rest without a substitute and zapdos cant withstand 2 dragon claws and a thunderbolt. Then I switch in gyarados and assume all is lost. I use hp flying, Latias uses thunderbolt first and gyarados survives on 10 hp (what a beast) but doesn't even kill with hp flying. So I might have actually won if I used dragon dance instead
I would try to give zapdos some more special defensive bulk and perhaps gyrados as well. It's possible salamence could be a different pokemon or defensive instead, because sometimes he feels like a wasted slot. It's possible moltres could replace zapdos, but the slight decrease in speed worries me
The flying typing is indeed very challenging. Flying is naturally weak to rock ice and electric. Those three types are some of the most powerfull attacking types in the game. And in particular ice and electric is really hard to handle. Every single flying type is either weak to ice or electric and there are many very fast and powerful pokemon that know both thunderbolt and ice beam. Anyways I'm going to keep trying flying teams because I'm not satisfied yet. Also Actaeon how high did you get your flying type teams?
Very cool you're trying Mono Flying. I haven't been able to test yet how far my version can get on its own, but I think it should be able to get gold with some luck or after a few tries. The Xatu/Gligar/Gyarados team is currently in the 5th spot from "bad to good". I can't use Mence nor Zapdos nor any other Pressure abuser at all because they are on other teams already. Gyarados is a given and definitely the most potent sweeper. So what would be the best in general, without the restrictions?

A typical "Burglar" team consisting of Thief, Speed Control, stalling PP and setting up, is what my team represents. But a lead PP-stall Roar Bird + another Pressure abuser could definitely be good. You can consider Zapdos and then Aero/Moltres or even Reflect Articuno for example. What I like about Gligar is that it's not weak to Elc/Rock in particular.

I'm curious to hear what you can come up with!
 
I came up with another flying type team but it got to almost the exact same place. I got to 74 wins this time.


Skarm chesto berry (bold)
Protect / sand attack/ torment / rest
EV's 252 Hp / 100 def / 156 sdef

Zapdos Leftovers (timid)
Protect / substitute / rest / thunder wave
EV's 180 Hp / 76 sdef / 252 spe

Salamence lum berry (adamant)
dragon dance/ rest / hp rock / earthquake
EV's 252 HP / 252 atk / 4 def

The team felt stronger than the last one and skarmoy absolutely destroys so many threats. Skarm can wall every physical attacker and most special attackers on his own. But unfortunately against the really strong special attackers all he can do is 1 sand attack. Also some fire and electric type pokemon can OHKO him but they are all handled decently by Zapdos. I did consider thief on skarmory but all his moves seem very important.
I lost to a starmie. I sacrifice skarmory to 2 tbolts in order to get off 1 sand attack. Then I try to pp stall with zapdos. First protect then he ice beams me to about 50% and then I sub. Then protect. Then behind a sub I go for substitute again, because I had assumed I was slower. Because it was a speed tie I did nothing that turn and he breaks my sub. Then protect. Then he wins the speed tie and ko's me. Last is salamance which he OHKO's with the last ice beam. This starmie is an absolute nightmare for my team and would have also beaten my last team. It's the modest one with ice beam / thunderbolt / surf / psychic so it had a lum berry to stop thunder wave from mattering. Going for a second protect on the wasted turn would have given a 50% additional chance of removing the last ice beam but I didn't think of it at the time.
 
I came up with another flying type team but it got to almost the exact same place. I got to 74 wins this time.


Skarm chesto berry (bold)
Protect / sand attack/ torment / rest
EV's 252 Hp / 100 def / 156 sdef

Zapdos Leftovers (timid)
Protect / substitute / rest / thunder wave
EV's 180 Hp / 76 sdef / 252 spe

Salamence lum berry (adamant)
dragon dance/ rest / hp rock / earthquake
EV's 252 HP / 252 atk / 4 def

The team felt stronger than the last one and skarmoy absolutely destroys so many threats. Skarm can wall every physical attacker and most special attackers on his own. But unfortunately against the really strong special attackers all he can do is 1 sand attack. Also some fire and electric type pokemon can OHKO him but they are all handled decently by Zapdos. I did consider thief on skarmory but all his moves seem very important.
I lost to a starmie. I sacrifice skarmory to 2 tbolts in order to get off 1 sand attack. Then I try to pp stall with zapdos. First protect then he ice beams me to about 50% and then I sub. Then protect. Then behind a sub I go for substitute again, because I had assumed I was slower. Because it was a speed tie I did nothing that turn and he breaks my sub. Then protect. Then he wins the speed tie and ko's me. Last is salamance which he OHKO's with the last ice beam. This starmie is an absolute nightmare for my team and would have also beaten my last team. It's the modest one with ice beam / thunderbolt / surf / psychic so it had a lum berry to stop thunder wave from mattering. Going for a second protect on the wasted turn would have given a 50% additional chance of removing the last ice beam but I didn't think of it at the time.
Try Twave/Protect/Sub/Flash Zapdos lead with Salac/Lum, SubTect Sand Attack Skarm and a Leftovers Intimidate Sub DD sweeper. You'll be surprised, this setup is "statistically" really strong and a nice showcase of the calculations I made on SubTecting with various parameters.
 
Try Twave/Protect/Sub/Flash Zapdos lead with Salac/Lum, SubTect Sand Attack Skarm and a Leftovers Intimidate Sub DD sweeper. You'll be surprised, this setup is "statistically" really strong and a nice showcase of the calculations I made on SubTecting with various parameters.
I tried your team Actaeon. It seemed like a nice idea, but I died to the same starmie set at 50 wins -_- I used Twave he used ice beam and critted zapdos. I could have used Flash instead. I could have tried to protect substall instead. But at the end of the day it's a speed tie.
Maybe I just got really unlucky though. After looking at the max pokemon database a bit more Starmie (3) and (4) look like they should be the absolute fastest threatening pokemon for this team. Tomorrow I might try to use one of your simulations to see how unlucky I was.

Edit: tried this team again and I'm now on 91 wins. Haven't run into metagross yet but I think he could be a problem if he gets one attack raise. Starmie is still an issue and for a lot of special attackers I rely on a bit of luck to win. Either way this team is decent.
 
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I tried your team Actaeon. It seemed like a nice idea, but I died to the same starmie set at 50 wins -_- I used Twave he used ice beam and critted zapdos. I could have used Flash instead. I could have tried to protect substall instead. But at the end of the day it's a speed tie.
Maybe I just got really unlucky though. After looking at the max pokemon database a bit more Starmie (3) and (4) look like they should be the absolute fastest threatening pokemon for this team. Tomorrow I might try to use one of your simulations to see how unlucky I was.
Here's another funny one that might solve a lot of problems:

MID JULY (Butterfree) (F) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Compoundeyes
EVs: 60 HP / 196 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Endure
- Thief
- String Shot
- Flash

CUSTER (Zapdos) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 220 HP / 204 Def / 4 SpA / 4 SpD / 76 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -SpA)
- Protect
- Substitute
- Double Team
- Baton Pass

WORKINGMAN (Salamence) @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 244 HP / 236 Atk / 12 Def / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
IVs: 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Earthquake

Currently at 56 wins. Needs some luck in some fights with Butterfree of course, but it's pretty solid for Gold I think. Will continue some tonight and see if I can get 100 maybe?!

EDIT: finally lost to Ancientpower Aero lead; it got the full boost after Endure, so I couldn't outspeed it. After that, it hit Zapdos for like 70% but its Ancientpower was outstalled. It paralyzed Salamence with Dragonbreath, and Salamence got beaten by Ursaring Facade crit. Miraculously, Zapdos was able to setup double teams and burn through all its PP, beating Ursaring in the process. Finally, Charizard beat me just before I struggle KO-ed it with a Blaze Flamethrower. An epic battle, but I got 76 wins.

If you want make a decent team out of this, I suggest using Suicune over Butterfree with Icy Wind, Roar, Mud-Slap and either Protect or Surf. Zapdos does all of the work for you after that.
 
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Just a small update on the team that was previously called "Cigarette". Salamence got way tankier and Snorlax was eventually made to be Calm for way better odds of setting up against all kinds of special Pokemon, most notably Latios and Calm Mind Psychics.

The new Salamence is quite an original set, because it's the first BULKY Choice Band Mence we ever considered as far as I know. It's called "VAN NELLE" after the Dutch cigarette brand, since it still fries Bug-types and actually lets me roll these cigarettes while setting up Lax. The Speed EVs let it outspeed Metagross. The Attack EVs are to make it able to 2HKO Walrein and Lapras so I have a decent chance of beating them even before they get a chance to start using OHKO moves. It still gets 2HKOs against Marowak and many other threats as well, but now misses the opportunity to OHKO Zapdos. Luckily, Snorlax being bulkier now helps against that.

Salamence has good odds of avoiding getting 2HKOed itself by all sorts of things, like non-STAB Intimidated Rock Slides, Metagross Meteor Mash, various Thunderbolts and Psychics. It tanks weaker Ice-type moves like Electabuzz Ice Punch before sending it to a great hen house in the sky with Earthquake. Also the extra defensive bulk, combined with Intimidates, makes it laugh at (STAB) Fighting moves and it is now able to switch in multiple times for Intimidate while keeping its health above 50% which is essential to make it choose the right moves in a pinch situation.

Anyway, I proudly present the new team, "RISING HOPE"! I think I speak for dgice too if I say this is the best team we've got for Palace until now.

VANNELLE.png


https://pokepast.es/bb160f3a10c812f4
 
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Anyway, I proudly present the new team, "RISING HOPE"! I think I speak for dgice too if I say this is the best team we've got for Palace until now.

View attachment 338493

https://pokepast.es/b0d45918b703644b
This is definitely the best team we have so far, and now it is better optimized and we know the plan for various matchups in higher detail and with more confidence. We have run it over and over against hard trainers like dragon tamers, black belts, and swimmers. Funnily enough I think swimmers are the riskiest with the ohko's but we have pretty decent chances between rock slide on salamence and substitute on suicune and they often don't have the most dangerous sets with them. For physical trainers you often rely on salamence and suicune to beat all 3 pokemon. Substitute was used less often than I like but when it is it's pretty awesome, you need a very bulky pokemon to make it work. For example I love a substitute blissey as your special wall in the palace, the only reason I didn't use it is I couldn't find a physically defensive enough struggler, regirock and registeel are both too weak to earthquake (and maybe brick break), skarmoy doesn't have amnesia (maybe that's not a deal breaker but without higher base attack it would get rough); but I'm sure substitute blissey should be on other types of palace teams.

We tried a lot of other teams out a long the way and some seemed very workable. One thing that we realized about struggling sets is that we don't really need amnesia once set up as long as we have high enough special defense that we can survive a hit. Amnesia does help at all againsts crits from their second pokemon anyways, double team does and having a high attack stat so they can survive fewer turns against you. You basically need curse and double team to win struggle wars. With that in mind Actaeon came up with an awesome struggle umbreon set that uses wish and no amnesia. With wish you don't use rest as often and therefore status from things like the elemental punches is less of a worry. Umbreon's typing also saves it from most of the psychic calm minders! We found that for umbreon you actually want the extra pp on double team so you can stall for awhile getting the worst moves out of the way then switch out to suicune to stall more status inducing pp then switch back to umbreon ( I think that's the reason I know there was something we wanted more pp because we wanted to switch out). Synchronize is really interesting as well as umbreon doesn't have immunity but, synchronize tends to shut toxic opponents down faster (not as ideal as just setting up, but the threatening trainers don't often have toxic). Once you get your opponent struggling you can wish your team back to near full health (this could be really strong with intimidate or charm).
One of the downsides of Umbreon is the base stats aren't as good for the struggle wars and you come closer to not being able to set up as often, they also are not as good for setting up on non-psychic calm minders. Actaeon ( who honestly appears to work on pokemon somehow more than me even when my only priority everyday is pokemon) has been simulating struggle wars to find out who wins, how much hp we have left at the end, and how many turns it takes. In most situations snorlax only wins a little bit more often than umbreon, they both win most fights. But in terms of turns it takes umbreon may take 300-400 turns to win a battle that only takes snorlax 100 turns. Which is a pretty big deal if you are going to do this on retail because that umbreon fight is realistically multiple days of playing while half paying attention.
Being fast on the other hand is very nice on umbreon, being calm you often don't use curse early and the speed helps you heal early.

Umbreon has better synergy with shedinja so I put them together on a team. It's not as good as RISING HOPE, but it was really interesting to me how much thinking you got to do and how the team seems to thread the needle in terms of how it covers specific teams.
https://pokepast.es/76f1ae683e80ae21

For instance against cross chop machamp you switch into shed, out to umbreon in to shed baiting cross chops. You repeat 3 times then switch to swapping between suicune and shed (you are likely to lose shed here but it is not great against these trainers anyways) for the last cross chop pp. At that point machamp becomes setup fodder for umbreon. This sequence is important because you both need to be maintaining just enough hp on both umbreon and suicune (suicune wants enough hp to survive the last cross chop, umbreon needs it to set up), and because after moves have been repeated a few times they become less predictable. This highlights something we can exploit in palace, 5 pp moves, they are relatively easy to swap stall, I might not consider this technique in tower because it might be 10% chance to fail, but it is a real way we can overcome that there are too many types of threats to answer perfectly with just three pokemon.

Spenser's arcanine is a pokemon you need to play a little differently against since it's so important to set up on it. You can not attack it ever because you will hit it low and it will struggle itself to death, you ideally want to be at your last 6 double teams when it runs out of roar and starts struggling. The nice part is that as you double team and curse the opponents take less and less recoil from their own struggle. Running it out of pp is not hard since you can bait overheat with your useless shed and then easily bait extreme speed into shed when the special attack is lowered (pressure of course helps too) not that it was ever really a threat to umbreon, just nice to be safe.

There are other interesting synergies like how the dragon dancers that don't lose to ice beam are walled by shed.
Reflect suicune is nice, if that first rest with chesto gets used too early it can be rough though that it spams defensive moves because you sleep so much. Reflect does tend to buy you enough time to wake up. Reflect is interesting for doing it's job against clear body pokemon that charm doesn't work against. It however is dissapointing on this team because you need it against brick break. I may consider reflect on a psychic type for that reason.

The thought I want to leave people thinking about is switching into wish. When you switch in you have to survive the attack, then you get healed, so it doesn't work if you're already low, it does work to keep you at high health if you were already high. You also can't plan on picking wish very quickly so you need to be very good against the pokemon you are wishing on. Where you can break these rules with some certainty is if you get the opponent struggling and at lowered attack as you can be at 30% health and easily survive a reduced struggle. This style should theoretically benefit you if your plan is to trade health attacking against certain threats as you could take some damage beating the first pokemon, fully set up on the second pokemon and heal up, lose to an OHKO or have to switch out because of a psychup threat on the third pokemon, but the full health of your attacker saves you.
 
This is definitely the best team we have so far, and now it is better optimized and we know the plan for various matchups in higher detail and with more confidence. We have run it over and over against hard trainers like dragon tamers, black belts, and swimmers. Funnily enough I think swimmers are the riskiest with the ohko's but we have pretty decent chances between rock slide on salamence and substitute on suicune and they often don't have the most dangerous sets with them. For physical trainers you often rely on salamence and suicune to beat all 3 pokemon. Substitute was used less often than I like but when it is it's pretty awesome, you need a very bulky pokemon to make it work. For example I love a substitute blissey as your special wall in the palace, the only reason I didn't use it is I couldn't find a physically defensive enough struggler, regirock and registeel are both too weak to earthquake (and maybe brick break), skarmoy doesn't have amnesia (maybe that's not a deal breaker but without higher base attack it would get rough); but I'm sure substitute blissey should be on other types of palace teams.

We tried a lot of other teams out a long the way and some seemed very workable. One thing that we realized about struggling sets is that we don't really need amnesia once set up as long as we have high enough special defense that we can survive a hit. Amnesia does help at all againsts crits from their second pokemon anyways, double team does and having a high attack stat so they can survive fewer turns against you. You basically need curse and double team to win struggle wars. With that in mind Actaeon came up with an awesome struggle umbreon set that uses wish and no amnesia. With wish you don't use rest as often and therefore status from things like the elemental punches is less of a worry. Umbreon's typing also saves it from most of the psychic calm minders! We found that for umbreon you actually want the extra pp on double team so you can stall for awhile getting the worst moves out of the way then switch out to suicune to stall more status inducing pp then switch back to umbreon ( I think that's the reason I know there was something we wanted more pp because we wanted to switch out). Synchronize is really interesting as well as umbreon doesn't have immunity but, synchronize tends to shut toxic opponents down faster (not as ideal as just setting up, but the threatening trainers don't often have toxic). Once you get your opponent struggling you can wish your team back to near full health (this could be really strong with intimidate or charm).
One of the downsides of Umbreon is the base stats aren't as good for the struggle wars and you come closer to not being able to set up as often, they also are not as good for setting up on non-psychic calm minders. Actaeon ( who honestly appears to work on pokemon somehow more than me even when my only priority everyday is pokemon) has been simulating struggle wars to find out who wins, how much hp we have left at the end, and how many turns it takes. In most situations snorlax only wins a little bit more often than umbreon, they both win most fights. But in terms of turns it takes umbreon may take 300-400 turns to win a battle that only takes snorlax 100 turns. Which is a pretty big deal if you are going to do this on retail because that umbreon fight is realistically multiple days of playing while half paying attention.
Being fast on the other hand is very nice on umbreon, being calm you often don't use curse early and the speed helps you heal early.

Umbreon has better synergy with shedinja so I put them together on a team. It's not as good as RISING HOPE, but it was really interesting to me how much thinking you got to do and how the team seems to thread the needle in terms of how it covers specific teams.
https://pokepast.es/76f1ae683e80ae21

For instance against cross chop machamp you switch into shed, out to umbreon in to shed baiting cross chops. You repeat 3 times then switch to swapping between suicune and shed (you are likely to lose shed here but it is not great against these trainers anyways) for the last cross chop pp. At that point machamp becomes setup fodder for umbreon. This sequence is important because you both need to be maintaining just enough hp on both umbreon and suicune (suicune wants enough hp to survive the last cross chop, umbreon needs it to set up), and because after moves have been repeated a few times they become less predictable. This highlights something we can exploit in palace, 5 pp moves, they are relatively easy to swap stall, I might not consider this technique in tower because it might be 10% chance to fail, but it is a real way we can overcome that there are too many types of threats to answer perfectly with just three pokemon.

Spenser's arcanine is a pokemon you need to play a little differently against since it's so important to set up on it. You can not attack it ever because you will hit it low and it will struggle itself to death, you ideally want to be at your last 6 double teams when it runs out of roar and starts struggling. The nice part is that as you double team and curse the opponents take less and less recoil from their own struggle. Running it out of pp is not hard since you can bait overheat with your useless shed and then easily bait extreme speed into shed when the special attack is lowered (pressure of course helps too) not that it was ever really a threat to umbreon, just nice to be safe.

There are other interesting synergies like how the dragon dancers that don't lose to ice beam are walled by shed.
Reflect suicune is nice, if that first rest with chesto gets used too early it can be rough though that it spams defensive moves because you sleep so much. Reflect does tend to buy you enough time to wake up. Reflect is interesting for doing it's job against clear body pokemon that charm doesn't work against. It however is dissapointing on this team because you need it against brick break. I may consider reflect on a psychic type for that reason.

The thought I want to leave people thinking about is switching into wish. When you switch in you have to survive the attack, then you get healed, so it doesn't work if you're already low, it does work to keep you at high health if you were already high. You also can't plan on picking wish very quickly so you need to be very good against the pokemon you are wishing on. Where you can break these rules with some certainty is if you get the opponent struggling and at lowered attack as you can be at 30% health and easily survive a reduced struggle. This style should theoretically benefit you if your plan is to trade health attacking against certain threats as you could take some damage beating the first pokemon, fully set up on the second pokemon and heal up, lose to an OHKO or have to switch out because of a psychup threat on the third pokemon, but the full health of your attacker saves you.
Awesome read, sums it up quite well. I used Curse/DT/Rest/Agility Brave full Attack investment Skarm alongside Latias lead and a kind of Blissey you were talking about. Needs a ton of support but sweeps quite well. Ultimately you lose to Tbolt/Flamethrower from second opponent actually hitting through Double Teams in the little time they have of course, in my case Blaze Blaziken ;)
 

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