Mixed emotions on Scraggy this round. First of all, you can basically slap Scraggy on a team and get to the first page of the ladder with little effort in a day, but once you're there, everyone starts running 3+ checks for it. Should it go? Mayhaps.
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General Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter fatty
- Start date
That's true. But the problem is, if you don't run a Scraggy check, you'll use to Scraggy. But that's true for a lot of pokemon, so it's not a legit reason to ban Scraggy.
I don't think Scraggy is Uber, although I would be happy if it got banned. :P
So anyone else been running feint on their mewoth? I've been using it for whenever thy will protect the fake out and the fact that it always does damage even if they don't protect. However it's main use was to weaken carnavha which is no longer needed.
With Scraggy you can beat some counters with some sets, and other counters with other sets, but you can't become uncounterable with just one set. If you don't run Zen Headbutt on the Dragon Dance set then Croagunk counters you, and if you don't run Head Smash then Shelmet counters you. However, to run either of those moves you have to give up either Drain Punch or High Jump Kick and thus sacrifice either recovery or power. Since most teams carry more than one Scraggy check, you're going to have a hard time sweeping without running a partner that lures out counters. Scraggy doesn't even come close to meeting the Offensive Characteristic.
I agree. Scraggy isn't going to sweep after a +1 from Dragon Dance because it simply can't get perfect coverage when more then one Scraggy check is on a team. Scraggy isn't like Krow. Scraggy generally runs one set, while Krow could run 5+ sets, and each one was as stupid as the last. Brave Bird was doing a fuckton without any boosts, to anything that came in. Scraggy also has a weakness to Flying and Fighting, which is stupidly bad typing. That Scarf Taillow and Doduo, Mienfoo and Timburr all super effective against it is just horrible. Scraggy isn't coming out at random time and going trololol. You can slap Scraggy any team, I bet you can, but will it always have the capabilities to sweep? Not likely.
But then you need to pack two pokemon to beat one threat. Don't you think there's something wrong there? And also, how does Shelmet counter Scraggy if it does like 30% max with HP flying? .-.
Imo, Scraggy needs to be banned, becuase, with Gligar banned, it no longer has to use Ice Punch, and with Meditite banned, nothing can take a +1 HJK while not dying to a +1 Crunch or +1 Zen Headbutt and being able to OHKO back.
Imo, Scraggy needs to be banned, becuase, with Gligar banned, it no longer has to use Ice Punch, and with Meditite banned, nothing can take a +1 HJK while not dying to a +1 Crunch or +1 Zen Headbutt and being able to OHKO back.
Agreeing that Scraggy should be banned but disagreeing on the Shelmet point. You simply Acid Armor to take almost nothing from a +1 Crunch and then start using HP Flying, Recovering when necessary. However, a +1 Head Smash will OHKO, and Taunt Scraggy (which I personally use) beats Shelmet one-on-one.
If you're going to post, you should provide reasoning explaining why you think what you do. This post is, for all intents and purposes, contentless. I don't like that. There's a fair few other posts like this one floating around in this thread. I expect that to stop.
This is the set he's referring to:
Shelmet (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Shell Armor
EVs: 116 HP / 156 Def / 120 SpA / 80 SpD
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Recover
- Acid Armor
- filler
It will always do 8 damage on standard (and 14 SpD) Eviolite Scraggy (which has 21 HP), it's a pretty good Fighting-type counter and could still possibly stop a Scraggy sweep even if Mienfoo happens to Knock Off its Eviolite, thanks to Acid Armor.
Well, it doesn't OHKO it at full health on average, only doing 22 damage as a minimum and average (lc calcs >.<), but any light breeze would allow it to OHKO with +1 Head Smash.
One shaky check does not fix a broken Pokemon. Assuming the Deepseatooth version, the only Croagunk that 2HKOs a Clamperl after a Shell Smash is Max Atk+ LO Crogaunk with Fake Out + Sucker Punch on average (both have to be after a SS). Meaning Clamperl would beat a Croagunk one on one, so you would likely have to sacrifice something before getting to send out Croagunk. LO Croagunk is mostly deadweight for anything else on a team this generation, however. Eviolite Croagunk, being the more common and useful version this generation, can beat Clamperl one on one with Fake Out + Drain Punch + Sucker Punch, and revenge it after a SS with 2 Fake Outs + Sucker Punch (meaning you would have to sacrifice at least one Pokemon).
The set:
Croagunk (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 52 HP / 188 Atk / 116 Def / 116 SpD / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
- Fake Out
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Payback
Deepseatooth Clamperl is the actual problem with Clamperl, rather than just Clamperl itself.
I'll edit in reasons later, gotta go to sleep >.<
I have really never been able to successfully build a team where I can sweep with Clamperl this 'round', and I've tried giving it various levels of support. The problem is it's just way too hard to set up, and even if you do there are still lots of things that can stop your sweep! It's easy enough to say in team preview "ok I have to take out doduo and maybe that gastly and weaken ferroseed so I can set up on pokemon X (I'm not including a name here because it's that hard for me to think of something off the top of my head that it can safely set up on!)", but not only is that extremely difficult to actually do in the course of a match, I can say the same thing for a ton of other sweepers. Most teams are just too prepared for Clamperl, either because that's how the rest of the metagame just shapes it out, or they are really paranoid of Clamperl. I've honestly had much more success with Omanyte, because there are a lot more things it can set up on, and with Life Orb it's 'strong enough' after a Shell Smash (although it still leaves a bit to be desired I guess...).
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EDIT: oh, I forgot. I guess people are probably going to respond with how obscenely powerful Clamperl is even before a Shell Smash. I would agree it is, but even so I would say that I've really tried to just spam attacks early game and like everything else about Clamperl, it's easier said than done (unless you have 100% accurate prediction...). You'll probably KO a Pokemon or two at best, but other than that Clamperl is pretty risky to bring out too often early game, just because whatever they bring in to revenge Clamperl will either kill it or force you to switch out and backpedal pretty severely (because it will be something like Staryu or Chinchou or Magnemite or Snover, which are not exactly easy to switch into for all teams). Not that that's really that bad considering you have possibly already just gotten a KO, but there isn't anything particularly broken there either.... idk
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As for Scraggy, I pretty much feel the same way. It is fairly easy to counter with a small number of Pokemon, and people have been running Scarf Taillow/Doduo (among other things) this entire "round" to check it nicely. I think I can count the number of times I've seen Scraggy sweep (from either myself using it or my opponent) on my hands. People always whine for one reason or another that Pokemon like Scraggy 'force them to run one of X # of Pokemon' (in this case Mienfoo/Shelmet/Koffing/Timburr/etc)... but I have never really had a problem with that (so maybe that's just me?). This has pretty much been the case forever, I'm not sure why it's recently trending that this is suddenly reason to ban stuff. That's not even mentioning, of course, that usually blanket statements like "I have to run Pokemon X, Y, or Z to beat A" are incorrect, as there is occasionally Pokemon W that you overlooked and works equally well. But really, in a tier where maybe only the top 30 Pokemon are common at all, picking 1 ("or 2") of 5-7 that you "have" to use to beat a Pokemon really isn't that bad..... sack up, basically.
BTW, why are people even talking about Head Smash Scraggy? I have not once seen anyone use Head Smash Scraggy that I can think of. It is really not relevant in any discussion, especially considering that the ability to beat your a couple of your counters by running an otherwise inferior move is nothing new, nor does it make a Pokemon "broken". I would say the same for stuff like Zen Headbutt and Taunt, but I've at least seen those a good number of times...
Then again, I have no idea why any of you would listen to how I feel about tiering all considered.... so take any of that with a grain of salt I guess?
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EDIT: oh, I forgot. I guess people are probably going to respond with how obscenely powerful Clamperl is even before a Shell Smash. I would agree it is, but even so I would say that I've really tried to just spam attacks early game and like everything else about Clamperl, it's easier said than done (unless you have 100% accurate prediction...). You'll probably KO a Pokemon or two at best, but other than that Clamperl is pretty risky to bring out too often early game, just because whatever they bring in to revenge Clamperl will either kill it or force you to switch out and backpedal pretty severely (because it will be something like Staryu or Chinchou or Magnemite or Snover, which are not exactly easy to switch into for all teams). Not that that's really that bad considering you have possibly already just gotten a KO, but there isn't anything particularly broken there either.... idk
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As for Scraggy, I pretty much feel the same way. It is fairly easy to counter with a small number of Pokemon, and people have been running Scarf Taillow/Doduo (among other things) this entire "round" to check it nicely. I think I can count the number of times I've seen Scraggy sweep (from either myself using it or my opponent) on my hands. People always whine for one reason or another that Pokemon like Scraggy 'force them to run one of X # of Pokemon' (in this case Mienfoo/Shelmet/Koffing/Timburr/etc)... but I have never really had a problem with that (so maybe that's just me?). This has pretty much been the case forever, I'm not sure why it's recently trending that this is suddenly reason to ban stuff. That's not even mentioning, of course, that usually blanket statements like "I have to run Pokemon X, Y, or Z to beat A" are incorrect, as there is occasionally Pokemon W that you overlooked and works equally well. But really, in a tier where maybe only the top 30 Pokemon are common at all, picking 1 ("or 2") of 5-7 that you "have" to use to beat a Pokemon really isn't that bad..... sack up, basically.
BTW, why are people even talking about Head Smash Scraggy? I have not once seen anyone use Head Smash Scraggy that I can think of. It is really not relevant in any discussion, especially considering that the ability to beat your a couple of your counters by running an otherwise inferior move is nothing new, nor does it make a Pokemon "broken". I would say the same for stuff like Zen Headbutt and Taunt, but I've at least seen those a good number of times...
Then again, I have no idea why any of you would listen to how I feel about tiering all considered.... so take any of that with a grain of salt I guess?
Croagunk gets around 70% free damage on clamperl while holding eviolite, and clampearl isn't going to boost freely, so if clamperl even has to take a u-turn it will get koed by the combination of fake out + vaccum wave, and thats assuming it hasnt been hit by negative defense drops. I'm assuming sucker punch will do less becaues its a case of 16 sp atk vs 12 def and 15 atk vs 15 def. Also the two attacks with LO have a decent chance of koing full hp clamperl at -1 on both defenses. With sr its a guranteed ko, and it needs a layer of spikes with sr to get that ko with eviolite.
Then again I've been using a Croagunk (over scarf bird for toxic spike removal and extra priority) that's supposed to annoy scraggy with 15 atk fake out + 16 sp atk vaccum wave so that wouldn't be considered standard unless other people use gunk in a similar way.
I actually like scraggy forcing the metagame to center around it, even though running two checks seems redundant I'd like to see what would break certain stall teams without scraggy. What other fighting type beats the SLOWpokingtongue?
Then again I've been using a Croagunk (over scarf bird for toxic spike removal and extra priority) that's supposed to annoy scraggy with 15 atk fake out + 16 sp atk vaccum wave so that wouldn't be considered standard unless other people use gunk in a similar way.
I actually like scraggy forcing the metagame to center around it, even though running two checks seems redundant I'd like to see what would break certain stall teams without scraggy. What other fighting type beats the SLOWpokingtongue?
Kinda really agreeing with Elevator Music on Clamperl. While Clamperl is incredibly powerful, it has a tough time setting up a Shell Smash, and it really doesn't bode well as an early game spammer with Evoilite. Thus, you have a case of "One-item slot syndrome", so to speak.
A metagame centralized around Scraggy also seems to be, tbh, very ideal. Fighting-types are going to proliferate either way, so running a Scraggy check almost, in a backwards-sort of way, increases diversity. Since Scraggy can no longer set-up in a set-up Scraggy centered metagame, the result is a balanced metagame where battles aren't completely defensive or offensive.
Hope that had some coherency within it.
A metagame centralized around Scraggy also seems to be, tbh, very ideal. Fighting-types are going to proliferate either way, so running a Scraggy check almost, in a backwards-sort of way, increases diversity. Since Scraggy can no longer set-up in a set-up Scraggy centered metagame, the result is a balanced metagame where battles aren't completely defensive or offensive.
Hope that had some coherency within it.
Keep in mind that Scraggy can only use four moves. That is only three attacking moves with Dragon Dance. If you use Head Smash you can't use Zen Headbutt or Ice Punch which is a poor trade off. This is especially true since almost every Pokemon that's Bug or Flying either has a secondary type that makes it neutral to Fighting (ie Dark or Normal) or is just plainly neutral to Crunch.
Ice punch really isn't useful for anything significant anymore while Zen Headbutt only hits Croagunk, it fails to OHKO Eviolite 12 Def Mienfoo and 2HKO Timburr at +0. Although more people have been using Bulky 14 Def Eviolite Mienfoo, so HJK hardly OHKOs anymore, since its hard to dwindle Mienfoo's health with Regenerator.
Head Smash gets the KO on a handful of bulky Flying-/Bug-type Pokemon, such as Shelmet, Vullaby, Ducklett, defensive Venonat (same defense as Timburr basically), etc. Granted, you do need SR for some to guarantee the OHKO at full HP (Shlemet, Vullaby), it arguably has more use than Zen Headbutt/Ice Punch/Taunt. I've personally used it to some degree of success, although your team needs to be really prepared to fighting Mienfoo, since he's incredibly common and tears HJK-less Scraggy in half. Then again, you could use a DD HJK Crunch Head Smash set.
i still think the superior 3rd attacking option on dd scraggy is zen headbutt. fighters are continually still the best overall checks to scraggy, so having a way of plowing through them eventually really helps. not to mention that the mon's that zen headbutt doesn't help with (bugs and maybe some flyers) are usually weak to sr and sometimes, additionally, spikes. this makes the counters to zen headbutt scrag exceedingly easier to wear down and eventually break through. also, as a side note, you may want to take the rest of your team into account when thinking about what 3rd option to use, as i'm sure you'd rather be switching into a rather weak shelmet instead of the powerful bulky fighters of the tier.
edit: also, @al_alchemist, you don't need to ohko mienfoo or timburr with zen headbutt. scraggy is so threatening that no player can afford to let it get 2 dd's, this is a know fact. taking this into consideration, players will almost always switch directly to their scraggy counter / check as soon as it comes onto the playing field. this makes things way to easy for the scraggy user because they know exactly what you're going to do, meaning that they can just zen headbutt on the obvious switch-in. that one move will put even mienfoo into KO range the next time it comes in to try and check scraggy, allowing for an easy sweep. now i know this is all circumstantial shit, but ive been on the recieving and giving end of that exact scenario so many times that i just had to bring it up, but feel free to discount it if you'd like!
edit: also, @al_alchemist, you don't need to ohko mienfoo or timburr with zen headbutt. scraggy is so threatening that no player can afford to let it get 2 dd's, this is a know fact. taking this into consideration, players will almost always switch directly to their scraggy counter / check as soon as it comes onto the playing field. this makes things way to easy for the scraggy user because they know exactly what you're going to do, meaning that they can just zen headbutt on the obvious switch-in. that one move will put even mienfoo into KO range the next time it comes in to try and check scraggy, allowing for an easy sweep. now i know this is all circumstantial shit, but ive been on the recieving and giving end of that exact scenario so many times that i just had to bring it up, but feel free to discount it if you'd like!
A neutral Hi Jump Kick is stronger than a x2 Super Effective Zen Headbutt, so if by fighters you mean Croagunk, then cool. Admittedly, Croagunk is a problem, however, if you don't run Zen Headbutt.
As for your little edit, I'd have to say Scraggy is great if played right- unfortunately, Mienfoo having Regenerator makes the strategy not quite as perfect as your paragraph makes it sound. Out of legitimate curiousity, not trying to be a jerk here, how often do you pull off a Scraggy sweep (especially with that strategy)?
not to mention hjk's less than perfect accuracy and unreliability if the opponent has a ghost or protect user. and yes, when i say bulky fighters, im talking about mienfoo, timburr, and croagunk. i don't see the point in sacrificing the ability to hit all of them reasonably hard just so u can abuse hjk, which people are preparing for more now (example, 14 def mienfoo). speaking of mienfoo, even regeneration doesn't get mienfoo around being beaten by that strategy....
lastly, i've swept with scraggy more times than i can count using that strat lol. it was more towards the beginning of the new meta, because now i'm trying to experiment with threat other than scraggy before the next suspect test, but i'm sure it's just as effective. i just don't think people are playing scraggy right and that's why they're not getting these 'sweeping' results. that, or people are so overloaded on scraggy 'checks', in the loosest sense of the word, that it's blinding us to how overcentralizing and broken scraggy actually is. (in my humble opinion)
21 HP - 12 HP (average) = 9 HP. then, add 7 HP (1/3 of 21) back to 9 HP for when Mienfoo switches out, and you're left with 16 HP. keep that in mind, because now when Scraggy comes in again it only has to deal with a 16 HP Mienfoo. Scraggy comes in, DD's up, and here's the results...
So as you can see, +1 Scraggy can ko mienfoo even if it rolls min damage on the second time out. Furthermore, this is assuming SR is off the field (very unlikely) and the opponent is using the bulkiest mienfoo out there, so mienfoo is going to lose unless the opponent somehow manages to play mienfoo perfectly. but again, i repeat, this is purely a situational argument that's happened numerous times in my experience.
lastly, i've swept with scraggy more times than i can count using that strat lol. it was more towards the beginning of the new meta, because now i'm trying to experiment with threat other than scraggy before the next suspect test, but i'm sure it's just as effective. i just don't think people are playing scraggy right and that's why they're not getting these 'sweeping' results. that, or people are so overloaded on scraggy 'checks', in the loosest sense of the word, that it's blinding us to how overcentralizing and broken scraggy actually is. (in my humble opinion)
In my opinion, gastly and Shellder make for two incredible pokemon in little cup.
Gastly@leftovers
Levitate
Rash
Evs 4hp/252spA/252spE
Shadow ball
Dark pulse
Thunderbolt/icy wind/psychic
Will o wisp/ hypnosis/confuse ray/ sludge bomb
Just a sweeper....and possibly a bit of a staller with confusion, will o wisp, or hypnosis. Or just use sludge bomb for STAB. Shadow ball, obvious STAB. Dark pulse, nice coverage. Thunderbolt is probably your best choice in the coverage area, as well as reliability, but icy wind, if I am not mistaken, lowers the enemy's speed, which can help against foe sweepers and other pokemon that outspeed gastly.
Shellder set
Sheller@leftovers
Adamant/Jolly
Skill link
Evs 4hp/252atk/252spE
SHELL SMASH!!!!
Icicle spear
Rock blast
Razor shell
We'll start with the natures. Adamant for atk, jolly for speed. Shell smash, along with icicle spear STAB and skill link hits like a truck. Same effect with rock blast (but no STAB). Razor shell.....STAB.........? I guess.....?
I believe these two pokemon pose incredible threats as sweepers.
Gastly@leftovers
Levitate
Rash
Evs 4hp/252spA/252spE
Shadow ball
Dark pulse
Thunderbolt/icy wind/psychic
Will o wisp/ hypnosis/confuse ray/ sludge bomb
Just a sweeper....and possibly a bit of a staller with confusion, will o wisp, or hypnosis. Or just use sludge bomb for STAB. Shadow ball, obvious STAB. Dark pulse, nice coverage. Thunderbolt is probably your best choice in the coverage area, as well as reliability, but icy wind, if I am not mistaken, lowers the enemy's speed, which can help against foe sweepers and other pokemon that outspeed gastly.
Shellder set
Sheller@leftovers
Adamant/Jolly
Skill link
Evs 4hp/252atk/252spE
SHELL SMASH!!!!
Icicle spear
Rock blast
Razor shell
We'll start with the natures. Adamant for atk, jolly for speed. Shell smash, along with icicle spear STAB and skill link hits like a truck. Same effect with rock blast (but no STAB). Razor shell.....STAB.........? I guess.....?
I believe these two pokemon pose incredible threats as sweepers.
Dark and Ghost make for extremely redundant coverage unless you're Spiritomb IMO. Is Hidden Power Fighting not viable on Gastly?
Also, how does SubSplit/SubDisable work in LC in comparison to its successful OU counterpart?