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Really? Did I say that? I'm pretty sure I just said white supremacists, neo nazis, and proud boys.

The person I quoted. Who also said, "I don't like white supremicists killing people either, it's disgusting, but it's equally as vile that yall insist on defending Antifa "
and
You're not disproving anything I said. Again, you don't care about violence against people you clearly don't like, but go on, justify why you can't leave that to law enforcement, and continue to twist my words and take me out of context. Go ahead, you're really contributing.

Edit: and take my quote right: again, for creedance of argument, not that Antifa's violence is just as equally bad, the fact that **you're defending** them is equally as vile.

Also, Myzozoa, yes. White Privilege has been debunked so many times by experts, and celebrities/biased as all-hell sociologists don't count as experts. It's an old issue, move on. Additionally, Antifa? Self-defense? You're honest to God joking, right? When yall are chiming that they're fighting against the racists, I did not think you would reach that far, you'd at least be intellectually consistent and realize they're the provokers in so many of these cases. No, we can't be smart here it looks like.
 
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Why does thinking antifa is bad/violent/unhelpful to "the cause" need to align you with the white supremacists...?
Also, I don't think I said this? Was there a post itt where I insinuated it?

My gripe is with the "all violence is equally as bad" or "supporting Antifa is as bad as supporting white supremacist" arguments, not that if you condemn Antifa then that makes you a white supremacist.

Please elaborate and I will clarify.
 
I'll expand even, if there's, I stress, institutionalized burdens to those non-white and non-male, why is black and hispanic unenployment at an ALL TIME low under the "most racist, bigoted, and all the other shit" president in US history? Why is there an all-female law clerk under the most savage gang-rapist supreme court justice? Why is there all-black legislators in America, let alone a Black president for two terms? How much of these "institutionalized racism" under Democrats currently dominating Americas biggest cities, and how much under Republicans?
no-correlation-19297230.png


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...it-was-when-housing-discrimination-was-legal/

In case wapo is too liberal for you
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rdusda.pdf



Stop posting itt. Read some info counter to your beliefs. Ask yourself if stuff like homeownership and black imprisonment is really all due to bad personal choices. Come back when you understand that obama existing doesn't erase racism of people that are in control. tour political knowledge most be this tall to ride
 
Do you realize how pathetic you sound? No, Antifa does not just freaking milkshake people, Andy Ngo had brain damage following the ruthless beating he had to endure.
he was already a conservative before he got milkshaked so i think him having brain damage is unrelated to this incident
Ngo was not a unique situation either.
[citation needed]
It's one thing that the level of violence is not on par, sure I'll give you that creedance for the sake of argument, but it's equally as disgusting that ya'll seriously refuse to condemn them period, because, as the wise man Myzozoa once said: you don't care about violence against people you don't like (and that does not just apply to white supremicists and neo-nazis, it's been applying to pretty much anyone even the littest bit right of the far-left).
call me back when right wingers systematically get brutally murdered. people who are more innocent than vulgar racists get killed every day in senseless wars perpetuated by the american military industrial complex but i dont see you caring about those people. of all people who have violence committed against them every single day, why should i care in particular if a racist gets killed, let alone "milkshaked." just seems like a waste of mental energy to care about those people in particular.
I hope they get sentenced to the most brutal punishments available and an agonizing as all-hell death, but you're honest savages if you're seriously going out of your way to dodge defending Antifa let alone defend their fucked-up cause at all
interesting to see your bloodlust on full display in the same sentence u condemn others for being "savages" because they're not all too willing to swallow fox news propaganda. what exactly is this savagery u speak of, because if torturing and killing a person who is no longer in a position to do harm to others is not savagery to you, then i'm unsure what is
 
Also, I don't think I said this? Was there a post itt where I insinuated it?
Nobody said this itt. I have haf other people in my life call me alligned with white supremacists or accuse me of "defending them". My words were preemptive.
My gripe is with the "all violence is equally as bad"
but see, nobody actually says this. Myself, deceit, and flare have said that "violence is bad" not "violence is equally bad". That's _the_ strawman argument. It's like people want to rile up deceit on purpose. The timeline of events, deceit is off having his andy ngo milkshake argument, then news of the shooting occurs, and THEN people (including you: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/general-news-discussion-thread.3622536/page-28#post-8203538) descend on the thread to own deceit hardcore that white mass shooters are worse than antifa, not equally bad....which was never an argument posed by anybody. This leads to everything argued since, ie the "you defending antifa is as vile as white supremacists", etc.

I love arguing. But try stepping into the other person's shoes and ask "do they really think this"?
 
that whole argument is predicated on reading ppl defending themselves from violence as being the same as white supremacists organizing mass-scale violence. so when you call ppl defending themselves from nazis violent, and you call what the nazi's do violence, you're making an unfounded equivocation. self-defense may be violence, but it prevents greater violence from occuring. I understand that it is very difficult, because of the view that self-defense is violence means that if you defend yourself, under your theory, the defender might be said to be stoking further conflict, but the conflict is over the defender's own existence, and so if they don't fight it, their life will still be jeopardized, even more jeopardized than if they did defend themselves.
 
I guess it was true what I was told that some people only take certain parts of a post in order to construct a "counter-argument" often twisting the initial statement, alas.

One of the many things that come to my mind are: Why don't we stop ingraining into our kids the idea that a group of people are more prone to act a certain way because of their skin color/gender? (This applied to the stereotypes made both to white and black people), to avoid younger generations to pay so much attention to these traits and instead, try to look at the reasons behind why people do these things and act accordingly, by submitting them to justice? Why don't we start raising children with a mentality that promotes love and tolerance towards each other and ignore the visual differences to also avoid profiling people? This goes for both sides (or as many sides that exist). Guns should stop being glorified, they need to stop being promoted as the only way of people to defend themselves, to try to avoid conflict with other people regardless if they have different ideas, and instead try to find a common ground peacefully, to achieve a certain goal. To stop categorizing certain actions as "self-defense" in order to justify them and continue doing them. When you are self defending yourself, you are not looking to severely wound someone else, you are looking to stop them from continuing violence against you or other people so that you can repel them and ultimately let the authorities know so they can take action. Why don't we study the factors that make some people be so mentally weak, they can be molded to what someone else wants and have them act a certain way? We have psychologists and plenty of other resources available.

But here we are, implying some people are "illiterate" for not seeing things with the exact same eyes they do, implying that we are equating things to something even worse when it is clearly not the case. I wonder who actually suggested that "Leftists should be jailed and executed" the one who suggested this is clearly out of their mind unfortunately..., because if someone from the left (nor any other political side/belief) didn't do anything that breaks the law, I don't see why they should be jailed, much less executed, but if it's the contrary, then they should be arrested/fined (depending on the gravity), just the same way any other person commits any sort of crime without looking into what political spectrum they belong. Some people fail to understand that constantly name-calling people, shouting at them for actions that other people committed won't really make a big change, instead, people will stop taking you seriously, even if at some point the arguments you bring are substantial and can bring a positive solution.

This will be my last post regarding this specific topic, I admit I am not someone who tends to debate very often, I also wish my vocabulary wasn't so limited so maybe I could be able to make my messages much easier to understand. These have been my "two cents" regarding these terrible incidents. My prayers and deepest condolences to the relatives of the deceased.

Edit: Yeah, Divine Retribution, I also agree with that. I know there are situations where you have no other option but to cause severe harm to the aggressor in order to defend yourself even though that's not your primary objective. It's indeed a very tough situation, thanks for bringing it up.
 
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To stop categorizing certain actions as "self-defense" in order to justify them and continue doing them. When you are self defending yourself, you are not looking to severely wound someone else, you are looking to stop them from continuing violence against you or other people so that you can repel them and ultimately let the authorities know so they can take action.

I agree with a lot of your post, but I take slight issue with this part here because sometimes self-defence necessitates doing harm to the aggressor. Your first goal should be defending yourself, not severely wounding someone (if you're attacking someone with the goal of severely wounding them being your first priority, that's not self-defence), but if that requires that you severely wound someone in order to incapacitate their ability to harm you or another innocent party, then so be it. The responsibility is solely on the aggressor for putting you in a situation where your only options are to harm them or be harmed by them in the first place.

Oh, and throwing milkshakes at people isn't severely harming them, but whatever.
 
a load of nonsense

One of the many things that come to my mind are: Why don't we stop ingraining into our kids the idea that a group of people are more prone to act a certain way because of their skin color/gender?
no one is saying that white supremacist violence is only done by white bois, but yeah 3 cheers for ur victim complex
But here we are, implying some people are "illiterate" for not seeing things with the exact same eyes they do, implying that we are equating things to something even worse when it is clearly not the case. I wonder who actually suggested that "Leftists should be jailed and executed" the one who suggested this is clearly out of their mind unfortunately...,

i refer you to esteemed user Robert Alfons post for a recap of the implicit lust for state violence against leftists (lumped together as the very scary and organized 'anti-fa', whose activites are equivocated with mass murderers), and the recent proposed laws that criminalize dissent in the name of 'anti-fa is violent too' u get another chance to prove ur literacy
 
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no one is saying that white supremacist violence is only done by white bois, but yeah 3 cheers for ur victim complex
i neither have any intention on getting involved in this argument nor do i have enough information to get involved but flare is a great friend of mine so i'll stick up for him here (yes there is bias i am inclined to defend him a bit here) - i really wish you wouldn't assume that flare is a white male and attacking him for having a victim complex and instead argue points like you have wonderfully been discussing in parts of your post (not that i will agree or disagree with your arguments). have a good day or something

a load of nonsense i guess you could say
 
where did i assume flare was a white male? i just said he was stoking a victim complex where white males are supposedly under attack. i don't believe that there is anything about this victim complex that makes it only innate to white men, just like I know white supremacist violence isn't only done by white men. it's the same straw man he's been repeating since his first post itt, no one thinks this is just a white dude problem, plenty of nonwhite and mixed raced dudes and women of all kinds go in for white supremacy too.
 
Nobody said this itt. I have haf other people in my life call me alligned with white supremacists or accuse me of "defending them". My words were preemptive.
I was confused because you quoted me and asked me questions, and then posed that question in the same block, but I see it's a misunderstanding.
but see, nobody actually says this. Myself, deceit, and flare have said that "violence is bad" not "violence is equally bad". That's _the_ strawman argument. It's like people want to rile up deceit on purpose. The timeline of events, deceit is off having his andy ngo milkshake argument, then news of the shooting occurs, and THEN people (including you: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/general-news-discussion-thread.3622536/page-28#post-8203538) descend on the thread to own deceit hardcore that white mass shooters are worse than antifa, not equally bad....which was never an argument posed by anybody.
Hm, no he was calling them terrorists prior to the news break, which looks like to me an equivocal statement. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/general-news-discussion-thread.3622536/page-28#post-8203132 . The El Paso shooting could have not happened and I still would have called that out (and used prior mass murders to strengthen my argument).
This leads to everything argued since, ie the "you defending antifa is as vile as white supremacists", etc.
I'm lost here. He said that twice (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/general-news-discussion-thread.3622536/page-28#post-8203589 & https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/general-news-discussion-thread.3622536/page-28#post-8203927 ). You're piggybacking on his statement or you're refuting it? Genuinely not trying to be antagonistic here, but I think you're dismissing what I said because you think I made in error with the chronology of events.
I love arguing. But try stepping into the other person's shoes and ask "do they really think this"?
I don't think you think this fwiw. I've only quoted two people who've supplied the phrases "equally as bad"/"both are bad" without including to what degrees of bad might separate them. Since then, it looks like deceit has tried to quantify that Antifa's actions themselves aren't on par, but he still maintains that supporting them "is equally as vile." https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/general-news-discussion-thread.3622536/page-29#post-8203959 Which is weird to say that being supportive of Antifa tactics to deter worse acts of violence is on par with the acts of violence they're trying to deter, but since you've asked him to stop posting itt I'm not going to engage with him.
 
There's something very trenchant about the El Paso shooter driving several hours to the border from his cozy suburb in Plano to kill who he believes are Mexican insurgents, never mind of course that most of Texas used to be Mexico and that many Texan Latinos (like my family) have been here for several generations. Until we address the base conditions that lead to this kind of alienation, there will be plenty of willing converts to rightist radicalism. However, I don't see a better short-term solution than serious gun control. The U.S. is not the only rich, western country with violent rightists, but it is the only one where the slaughter is so frequent. I think we have a good idea why.
 
this shit fucking sucks...

Someone said we should ask what the root cause for the violence was instead of just pointing out that the shooter held white supremacist beliefs. IDK how the conversation can still possibly exist where we have to explain over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again that the white supremacist beliefs are the fucking reason for the violence.
 
The problem is violent people. Not ideologies. All ideologies have produced violent people in history. Likewise, it's useless to ban guns. We've observed that mass killers becoming more creative in countries without guns. If someone really wants to kill, they will find a way to do it.

Dayton shooter was on the left, yet you don't see me criticizing the left for being violent or whatever.
https://heavy.com/news/2019/08/connor-betts/
 
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You say “violent people” like it’s just an unfortunate condition they were born with when that’s just laughably untrue. White supremacists have been stoking violent hatred of minorities for years and the massive spike in violent crimes that are directly rooted and attributed to that hateful bile is clearly evident.

And the Dayton shooter was “on the left” but he didn’t leave a manifesto saying directly “it is because of my leftist beliefs that I killed my sister her boyfriend and others”

Motives aren’t always political, but white supremacist motives very clearly stated before and after they commit the crimes are treated as like untouchable and unimpeachable and it’s fucking EXHAUSTING. Stop trying to play both sides or whatever the fuck and just fucking look at how explicit these people are about how the rhetoric of the right has lead them to these actions. How many times does white replacement theory have to be cited as the primary driving factor for their violence from the people committing the actual violence before were allowed to say “maybe there’s something wrong ideologically here”
 
The problem is violent people. Not ideologies. All ideologies have produced violent people in history. Likewise, it's useless to ban guns. We've observed that mass killers becoming more creative in countries without guns. If someone really wants to kill, they will find a way to do it.

Dayton shooter was on the left, yet you don't see me criticizing the left for being violent or whatever.
https://heavy.com/news/2019/08/connor-betts/
nope, again, beliefs do motivate violence, and the dayton shooting is no different. the only ppl the shooter targetted were black ppl, under the usual white supremacist ideology that prohibits 'miscegenation' (hope you remember what that word means orch). so I will say again, that this shooting was clearly a hate crime motivated by racial animus against black ppl, so there is no way of spinning this where white supremacy ideology didn't play a role. Same with the garlic festival dude, barely 'white' by historical standards, but precisely for this reason he was fascinated with whiteness and white supremacy, he got really deep into it to justify how he was a white person and to explain how he was disgusted by the 'mestizos' (mixed race ppl). This is another brand of white supremacy less familiar to most Americans perhaps, but it comes from a long history of colonial violence by white european settlers upon the indigenous population. Finally you have the el paso shooter, who expressed a more up to date and familiar white supremacist ideology that is clearly recognizable as in lock-step with the trump administration:

67663138_164507194716072_7693253851339554816_n.jpg


he had the same thing happen a few days ago at rally in the florida panhandle, where he gave a similarly lackadaisical response, something quite different from a rebuke.

anyway no one itt is claiming that ppl with leftist beliefs are immune to white supremacist ideology, since like it's part of so many contemporary vocabularies and logics, and so it is rendered natural and as such invisible in our society, until we suddenly get these huge outbursts of violence by ppl whose paranoia has finally pushed them over the edge and then we all act surprised, like the logic behind it wasn't woven into the day-to-day fabric of ppl's lives, as if white supremacist tropes aren't being mobilized all the time to sell products or gain political support.
 
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Do people actually believe that in 95% of circumstances a lunatic without a gun can kill just as many people as that same lunatic with a gun? I'm not exactly on board the "lets ban all guns full stop" train either but lets get our heads out of our asses here. Violence may exist with or without guns but it's undeniable that guns make that violence easier (and deadlier) to perpetrate. Yeah, I'm sure that if some of these sick fucks couldn't get their hands on firearms, they'd grab knives or whatever instead, but it's a hell of a lot easier to stop someone with a knife or similar weapon than it is to stop someone with a firearm.

Either way, I'm not even asking for a universal firearm ban and I don't think most of the other users in this thread are either. The term "gun control" is what's being thrown around right now, not "gun bans". Controlling something isn't the same as banning it. A fantastic and damn near non-controversial place to start would be mandated universal background checks and mental health exams for the sales or transfer of any firearm in any circumstance. No exceptions, no exemptions, period.
 
i think gun violence is almost impossible to solve and i don't think white supremacy is the cause inherently. i think its more important to address how young males get involved in those circles in the first place.

i think its 3 main reasons; the alienation and loneliness that comes from living in a constantly online world, mental illness (specifically depression and lack of a will to live) and the media being incredibly politicized (this is the least pressing of the three issues obviously). i think this tweet kinda sums it up for me.


theres a reason why its generally white males aged 19-25 involved in these lone gunman public shootings, when youre being told about how much privilege you have constantly and in your real life you have no real prospects going for you its definitely going to do something to your mental state. its going to make you bitter and hateful. a lot of these shooters i would argue hate themselves more than they hate minorities and are looking for an outlet for their hate. they turn it outwards instead of reflecting inwards. you can take one look at the incels forum or some shit and realize that these people need serious help, they probably dont have a real support system which has them turning more to these fringe groups that are all about redirecting the hate to yourself towards others. when you think about how high the male suicide rate is it makes more sense that they wouldnt value their life and would be willing to throw it away in this blaze of glory of a mass shooting. they have nothing to lose and they are so stuck in this hateful loop that they see it as the only way out. its extremely tragic. i think white supremacy is an outlet for these people. this is what happens when you let an entire generation grow up on the internet and not have a real social circle to bring you back to reality.

on another note it speaks volumes that the only time anyone seems to care about gun violence (in the mainstream sense of course) is when it is a school shooting or something similar. everyone is always eerily quiet when people are being murdered constantly in gang warfare in the major cities, or when its a domestic dispute. they want a single scapegoat to distract from the constant enabling politicians do wrt gun violence. when i saw corey booker tweet out against gun violence today despite well, being cory booker it was almost like a twisted joke.

edited my post to be a bit more concise and remove a problem line i didnt really think about
 
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i think white supremacy is an outlet for these people. this is what happens when you let an entire generation grow up on the internet and not have a real social circle to bring you back to reality.
yeah ppl get habituated to parts of the internet that are really toxic and they just get a constant stream of depressing framings of the world. they don't have someone to help them reframe difficult realities of the world. Like yes, white men are privileged, but in reality other factors like class and race, unique social circumstances/environment have to be considered. Talking about white privilege doesn't always mean telling often disavowed narratives of trauma that many white men have experienced, often at the hands of other white men (lots of men are molested believe it or not, especially by other older boy children and men). I think another big untold personal narrative is the generation of ppl that baby boomers raised to take care of them, inverting the expected parent-child dynamic. i still believe white supremacy is a proximal cause in the recent cases, mainly because it is recently frequently explicitly sanctioned. Ultimately, I think I take the view where I don't really understand what the mass shooters are thinking. It just doesn't make sense to me because I can't wrap my head around their experience, however I recognize how their self-reported beliefs are aligned with dominant worldviews, and thats very frightening. I also believe part of it is about stakes: if i have a nice life full of distractions like ppl that love me, even if I believe 'the mexicans are taking are jobs' is a big deal, I'm would still be too busy working full-time, going back to school, and travelling and enjoying my life to be interested in committing acts of terror. so yeah there is def a way in which the idea of white privilege is overblown in a way that is reactionary because it suggests somehow if everyone had it as good as white men this economy would be fair and everyone would be doing great, but our late stage American capitalism, possibly 'globalized', is dangerously predicated on unnecessary scarcities and with climate change no one is safe except billionaire class (and I'm not talking about immigrants when I say 'unnecessary scarcity', immigrants have nothing to do with unnecessary scarcity except that they are so often scapegoated by those in power).
 
the alienation and loneliness that comes from living in a constantly online world, mental illness (specifically depression and lack of a will to live)
when youre being told about how much privilege you have constantly and in your real life you have no real prospects going for you its definitely going to do something to your mental state.
. a lot of these shooters i would argue hate themselves more than they hate minorities and are looking for an outlet for their hate.
when you think about how high the male suicide rate is it makes more sense that they wouldnt value their life and would be willing to throw it away in this blaze of glory of a mass shooting. they have nothing to lose and they are so stuck in this hateful loop that they see it as the only way out.

Do ppl who kill themselves really want to die? No of course not
Do ppl who kill others in a mass shooting really want to kill other ppl? I think its the same situation.

How the hell do you solve this? Yeah "mental health" is an issue in america, but does this get fixed by sending everybody to a therapist...? I don't think so. I'm a ridiculously lucky dude who has an incredible family and friends and a great job and nothing in life irks me. I don't think I'll ever be depressed in my life. Who knows. But not everybody is as lucky as me. You need to make people's lives actually better, not just talk about their problems.


on another note it speaks volumes that the only time anyone seems to care about gun violence (in the mainstream sense of course) is when it is a school shooting or something similar.
honestly. This is a big factor in why I dislike classical "gun control" talk in politics. It just seems like opportunism to me. I find it hard to believe that your average politician cares about getting guns off the street vs saying that they passed a bill last year that ultimately does nothing, thus proving next election cycle that they are VERY good at gun control. Maybe fix the root cause of the problem (no homes, no jobs, no future) and people won't feel the need to lash out. Idk. I don't really want to turn this post into a gun control debate but this is a big reason why I support politicians who genuinely say their goal is to improve society, not just target specific demographics.
 
so are you saying that the people doing the shootings are completely sane of mind? mental health is an extremely broad spectrum and that combined with the inherent culture of violence and the glorifying and attention shooters get by MSM would explain why it happens in america most prominently
 
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