Genesect

[LudwiG]

I feel I should address the CB Genesect issue, since I'm the QC person who approved it (to which Shurtugal referred). I'm not the world's greatest player and me QC approving CB Genesect does not make it good with no justification.

Firstly, for those of you that haven't looked at the Genesect thread in C&C, the best CB Genesect is not quite the one people are referring to here. For starters, Iron Head is virtually useless, such that it probably isn't even going to appear on the set when it goes on site (assuming it does). It offers practically no coverage over U-turn that will not be covered by Genesect's other moves.

The moveset I actually use is: U-turn / Zen Headbutt / Flamethrower / Ice Beam or Explosion. Yes, Explosion is not a given either. The power of Zen Headbutt is really not to be underestimated. With an attack boost, it has the power to OHKO virtually every Fighting and Poison-type, and frail Fire types like Volcarona and Ninetales. That includes Keldeo, Conkeldurr, Tentacruel, Lucario, Terrakion (you don't need Iron Head, therefore) and Infernape. The last two moves cover steels such as Skarmory, Forretress, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Genesect etc. and Gliscor, Landorus-T, Landorus-I, Dragonite, Salamence etc. Everything that doesn't take a really big chunk of damage from U-turn is well covered except for Heatran.

Bearing that in mind, I should now explain why CB Genesect is a good set. For starters, I'm definitely not saying it's better than Choice Scarf and Expert Belt Genesect, because it isn't. What it is, though, is sufficiently different, and quite clearly viable. It beats Special walls, and really punishes the opponent without you needing to predict (guess) much at all. That U-turn is just absurdly powerful, and you use it virtually all the time. It clearly has numerous advantages over Choice Band Scizor: Speed, power and COVERAGE at the expense of Bullet Punch. Yes, it has a terrible physical movepool, but its coverage absolutely blows Scizor's out of the water. Its only good switchin is, as ever, Heatran. Until Genesect came along I never wished Scizor had Zen Headbutt but I do now.

It's also worth noting that people are deliberately giving Genesect attack boosts. I get attack boosts most of the time, and I'm going to make my opponent pay for that.

Quick attack is also an option for the last slot. I don't know how good it is compared to the other moves, but it should deal significant damage for revenge killing weakened opponents if you get an attack boost.

 

[Nix_Hex]

It's also worth noting that people are deliberately giving Genesect attack boosts. I get attack boosts most of the time, and I'm going to make my opponent pay for that.

I used to do this all of the time in Dream World, but I realized recently that it is unwise. Even against a mixed Choice Scarf set (U-turn), you want Genesect to get the boost that your Pokemon is least scared of. For instance, it is possible to run an alternate version of MixTar that looks something like this:

Tyranitar @ Leftovers

Nature: Quiet
Ability: Sand Stream
Item: Leftovers
252 HP / 56 Def / 64 SpA / 132 SpD / 4 Spe
-Stealth Rock
-Crunch / Stone Edge
-Fire Blast
-Superpower / Ice Beam

This thing takes 38.61 - 46.03% from +0 U-turn as opposed to 60.89 - 71.78% from +1 U-turn had you been running the current on-site set (252 HP / 192 SpD). What this does is prevents a crit from screwing you over. You still retain that nifty Special Defense boost in sand (403 SpD), with +1 SpA Genesect doing upwards of 26% with its special attacks. Finally, with 4 Spe you go before opposing Tyranitar with the same spread and screw it over with Superpower but it's not very important otherwise.

Edit: On the other extreme, a Naughty Choice Band U-turn almost always OHKOes this Tyranitar without the boost, which is a good example of how powerful CB Genesect can be.

 

[alkinesthetase]

It's also worth noting that people are deliberately giving Genesect attack boosts. I get attack boosts most of the time, and I'm going to make my opponent pay for that.

yknow up until now i was dismissing cb genesect as a very viable but ultimately inferior way to run genesect. felt like it was squandering its broad coverage and ability to abuse satk boosts. but holy crap. there is so much download fear running around right now what with genesect being so fresh. people are aiming to get spdef higher than def all over the place (i'd bet everyone's dropping their 4 leftover EVs into sdef on mons of equal defenses) to avoid the fearsome scarfed +1 satk sweep from standard genesect. how better to capitalize on that attack boost than to carry a choice band and smack people with a banded +1 uturn?

suddenly this sounds like a very very very appealing idea. not a set to be taken lightly.

 

[Shurtugal]

Choice Band Genesect is very veristile, doing tons of damage to its usual counters (like I mentioned before). I would like to say that Quick Attack is a very good option (as mentioned before), and I would use it over Iron Head. Explosion is also a very good option, while not used as much, can be game saving (+1 DNIte tried to sweep so I exploded and took the game). As mentioned before, getting the +1 attack boosts are really appealing.


Just a few things I find intresting:

+ I U-turned on Ninetales; did over half
+ SubCM Rachi and Gastrodon love to switch into +1 U-turns, taking around 80% as punishment
+ Say goodbye to Tyranitar
+ Amo cries to +1 U-turn
+ Scizor and opposing Genesect take around 45-52%, and they are usually the only Pokemon who can take U-turns on offensive teams
+ Running Hasty allows you to outspeed non-scarf Rotom-W, smacking it for 65% on U-turn.
+ Tornadus-T also takes like 35% from U-turn, and it can't even switch into an Iron Head / Thunderbolt



Heatran and Skarm are the only good switches for Band Gene, and even Skarm takes like 59% from Explosion and risks it being mixed with Thunderbolt. U-turning out of Tran and into something like Specs Rotom-W is really amazing. I think CB Gene is what is going to make Gene hard to decide on Uber / OU material (since CB really counters its usual counters well)

 

[LudwiG]

On the subject of choice banded Genesect, a choiced scarf genesect with ev's in attacks should have similar success. It will have less power, but also the speed to deal with faster pokémon. Example of such a set:

Genesect@Choice scarf
Naughty/Naive nature
252 speed, 252 atk, 6 sp. atk
u-turn
zen headbutt
flamethrower
shadow claw/explosion/x-scissor/iron head/ice beam

Most of the moves were previously explained by someone. Shadow claw can be used against ghosts such as Jellicent, should they be a problem for the team. x-scissor can be used for extra power or being able to stay in (not losing an attack boost). Iron head got the flinch chance that can be utilized with the extra speed, also it's a STAB move. Ice beam is mostly for Gliscor, but also for Landorus and some dragons.
The physical moves of the last slot are situational, but ice beam is likely to have uses in most battles.

 

[X5Dragon]

It needs some fine tuning, someone has to bring out the calculator and see how many special evs after +1 are need so you can achieve a OHKO on D-Nite (with MS on), Scizor (under the rain) with ice beam and flamethrower respectively while at the same time OHKO Starmie, Celebi and Latios with U-Turn by diverting the rest into attack. The rest you can just be satisfied by paining them while factoring SR damage, but as a scout the above should be your first and foremost priority power wise.

P.S. I can't wait till Chandelure is released, Gene is fine, spamming volturn teams and rain isn't, this has to stop before we reach the ridiculousness of the Deo-S + 5 metagame.

 

[undisputed]

I've had some people use Rock Polish Genesect vs. me on the ladder today. It was quite effective vs. my offensive team, and especially if it gets the special attack boost. Strikes me as pretty useless vs. a defensive team though.

 

[EspeonX]

^I, having tried that set, agree. It is useless without the right coverage moves against such teams.

 

[NoUserName]

Has Bug Buzz any special use over Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Flamethrower?

In OU only is better against Rotom-W, Gastrodon, Reuniclus, Mamoswine, Meloetta, Mew?, Jolteon(frail anyways) and Deoxys-D

Gastrodon is a special case, because standard Gastrodon (252 HP, 252+Sp Def) even with Bug Buzz +1 isn't 2KOed, 40%-47%
Not very reliable as a counter, because most of the time the slug has to PP stall Bug Buzz and it's likely a CH is going to happen or 10% sp def drop.

Anything else is hit better with the coverage move of Thunder(bolt), Flamethrower or Ice Beam.

Sure it's good to use STAB in case of choice scarf or lategame, but in OU there are too many things that resist bug.

Even in rain Flamethrower is good, because the x4 of Ferro, Scizor and Genesect. Skarmory with Thunder(bolt) and Magnezone, which Genesect has troubles anyways.
Jirachi is annoying, though, but still U-turn in non-Rock Polish sets.

 

[G-Von]

Genesect is one the foremost threats because of its massive coverage, great typing, and its ability. With its release, I expect scizor's usage to fall because Genesect+Breloom fill many of Scizor's niches now. It can pursuit and bp though. I'm also going to try a Hone claws LO set, I'm thinking Hone claws/X-scissor/Iron head/Zen Headbutt. The last lot has other options, its just depends on what you want to it decimate. I think Thunder is a good option there a few other moves, but not really noting. Genesect might be able to be used as a bulky pivot (71/95/95 defenses are pretty decent). I'd give it quite a bit of special defense, and it does a few support moves, but scizor has roost, so it has much less longevity

The problem here is that every single steel pokemon will wall this.

 

[A Fhaol Bhig]

The problem here is that every single steel pokemon will wall this.

Isn't that why you have a team?

 

[G-Von]

Isn't that why you have a team?

Isn't Genesect primarily used for its perfect special coverage and VolTurning? Here, I'll answer my own question for you: yes. BTW Durant is a much better Hone Claws user who can outspeed the 4 Musketeers and can deal with steels with Superpower.

 

[RainbowCrash]

Dont know if this has been posted but ive been having alot of success with it

Genesect @ life orb
Nature Timid
Evs 252 SpecAtk 252 Spd 4 Atk
-Flame Charge
-ThunderBolt
-Bug Buzz
-Ice Beam

so what i do is bring it in on scizor or ferrothorn and bluff the scarf flamethrower get my + 1 spec atk from download and then + 1 Spd from flame charge.So now what i have is a +1 genesect that can change moves

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

I don't really know what that set has over Rock Polish Genesect. Rock Polish can still boost Genesect's Speed against the same Pokemon, but it boosts it to +2 (Flame Charge only boosts to +1), making it much harder to outspeed.

Anyway, I've been using Genesect a bit lately and I must say that Scarf Genesect is incredibly overrated. i mean, yeah, +1 U-turns theoretically hurt, but I find that even with the Download boost the U-turns are weak as fuck. Gliscor is just going to Protect on you to scout if you go for Ice Beam or U-turn. It's a mediocre revenge killer at best. It can't revenge kill Dragonite if Multiscale is intact, will never revenge kill Volcarona, +1 Salamence must be locked into Outrage in order to have Genesect revenge kill it, Genesect locked into T-bolt/Ice Beam is the epitome of Magnezone bait, pretty sure it can't revenge kill Keldeo effectively at all (most Keldeo I see nowadays put the leftover 4 EVs into Special Defense so Genesect won't get the Special Attack boost). I just don't get it. I have had no good experience using Scarf Genesect. This thing does not deserve all the hype it got when it was released. If I wanted a revenge killer, I'd use a physically-based Pokemon because of users of moves such as Calm Mind and Quiver Dance.

Honestly, the only Genesect sets I'd ever use are Rock Polish and Choice Band. Rock Polish can at least pull off a late-game sweep (especially with Heatran removed), and Choice Band.... 837 attack U-turns!

 

[Skore]

If you know that Gliscor is going to protect your move whatever it is - SWITCH. No point getting protected and staying in when you make them waste their protect as you switch to something else like a Rotom-W that can either Hydro-Pump for good luck or maybe throw a Trick or Burn into whatever they send in to tank the damage.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Gliscor is going to Protect on Choiced Rotom-W as well, and non-Choiced Rotom-W get Toxic stalled by SubToxic Gliscor (most Gliscor now run enough Speed to outspeed Heatran, Lucario, etc.). Don't forget that Hydro Pump has the same accuracy as the worst move in the game. I'm just saying that Scarf Genesect is not as good as people give it credit for.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

The best genesect set, without a doubt, is expert belt. It nets so many surprise kills, while umping the power just a tad without wearing it down too much. The only problem is if it becomes mainstream, people expect it. So abuse it now while you can.

What people don't seem to realize is that this thing should be played like electivire - focusing on superb coverage, not speed. Electivire doesn't have enough attack to do its job right, which is have super effective coverage on everything. If there's something faster than genesect, you switch out, but if anything is slower at all, you can just hit it for super effective damage or throw out a u-turn. Unboosted this will still deal huge amounts of damage to blissey.

 

[superbadd]

I like focus sash better ^. At least you can survive a hit and Ohko back.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

That's the problem with Genesect: people are overestimating it. Without a +1 download boost, it's actually quite weak. People assume it will always "OHKO back", when in reality it fails to OHKO gengar even at +1. The one thing it has going is its coverage and the ability to throw out U-turn when people switch in a special wall, THAT'S what needs to be abused.

 

[superbadd]

it's not gonna one shot everything, but it will most.

 

[papita]

I don't really know what that set has over Rock Polish Genesect. Rock Polish can still boost Genesect's Speed against the same Pokemon, but it boosts it to +2 (Flame Charge only boosts to +1), making it much harder to outspeed

I think someone posted on this same thread that flame charge+ another move achieve certain 2hko´s that you couldn´t get with RP

 

[Lork]

if you play it right gliscor using protect will give you all the offensive momentum you need.

if you know they will use protect, always use ice beam. then you can pull of a double switch. i have (had? i dunno where it is) a warstory on here where that was the first two turns of the game
partnering genesect with rotom-w also means you can uturn out (if you find yourself uturning against a gliscor) easily enough to rotom w who gliscor can't really do much to.

 

[Reytec]

I found no reason for him not to be in the OU meta... he completely lacks of good defensive stats... I used to take him over easily with the classic choice banded azumarrill...

 

[EspeonX]

Actually, I have found that Dragonite is OHKO'd by Ice Beam with the Download boost, regardless of Multiscale. So it can revenge it.

Reytec, just because it is revenged by Azumarill, doesn't make it worthy of not being OU...Landorus is easily revenged by Azu, but that didn't stop it from being the premier Sand sweeper in BW1. Genesect is actually decently bulky. It's bulky enough to do it's job, and that's all that matters in the end.

I tried CB Genesect, but it just didn't yield the results I expected. I may have to build a team around it.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

That's the thing, though - Dragonite's Special Defense is higher than its Defense, meaning Download gives the Attack boost, not the Special Attack boost. Even if for whatever reason you have a Special Attack boost against Dragonite, Ice Beam's chance to OHKO with Multiscale intact is under 50%, so I'm not really calling that reliable.

Ice Beam: 196-232 (60.68 - 71.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. This is without +1 Special Attack, which Genesect will have when it comes in on Dragonite.

So, basically, you have to break Dragonite's Multiscale, as always. Even then, I don't see why I'd go through all the trouble of locking myself into Ice Beam when I can revenge kill a Dragonite with Multiscale broken with LO Mamoswine's Ice Shard, while not being locked into a move against the opponent's next Pokemon (Mamoswine also isn't Magnezone bait). Mamoswine also much more reliably revenge kills Salamence.

Regardless, Scarf Genesect hasn't really been impressing me. I'm honestly a lot more interested in Rock Polish Genesect due to being able to pull off late-game sweeps, so I may build a team around it later (with Dugtrio and whatnot to get rid of Heatran)