Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

[farranpoison]

Well, my opinion is very simple. Mega Gengar is not best used as a special sweeper, but most likely a revenger killer, and makes a great revenger killer in OU, teams just be prepared to face a threat like mega gengar, but I don't see the meaning of banning gengarite. Loses immunity to ground types, the stats are not very different of a life orb gengar, and the ability itself only important in revenge killing. Gets a little bulkier, but seeing the all picture, I desagree with gengarite' banning.

Exactly. Exactly exactly exactly exactly.

Revenge killing is something that is important in all Pokemon games. It is a fact of Pokemon.

However, guaranteed revenge killing is different. In all other situations, if there's a mon you have out that is being threatened by a revenge killer, you have two options. Take it like a man, allowing your own revenge killer to come in, or switch out and save your mon for another time down the road.

Now here we have a revenge killer with SHADOW TAG. Now, instead of two options, you have one. You want to save the mon for another time? MGengar goes "lolnope" and shits all over your mon. Sure, you can send in your revenge killer after. MGengar can now switch out and then do the above ALL OVER AGAIN.

I feel like a lot of posters here have no idea why Shadow Tag is such a good ability. "Oh, I can't switch, big deal." My friends, it IS a big deal.

 

[Yellow Tokiwa]

For all the people shouting from the rooftops that Mega Gengar has no counters, I've beaten it before and I'm pretty new to the competitive scene!

I hate repeating others, but if nothing can switch in due to shadow tag, then it has no counters. If you don't know that then maybe
you should get more experience before coming back to insult experienced players.

 

[MagicMissingno]

I don't think anyone can come up with a new argument in this thread anymore on either side anymore. Anything that could be said has been already.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

I have no problem in agreeing with the part where MGengar can trap defensive pokemon/defensive cores most of the time and making a good stride for his team even though you should never hinge on it getting more than one pokemon. At the same time, as far as MGengar being a sweeper in general or assassinating offensive sweepers/facing offensive teams in general, he needs a lot of back up and could end up being useless if your opponent boosts first or any of the other things I mentioned.

Did you see RSF's list of offensive things it can kill? It was pretty forgiving, sure, but there's still a shitton of offensive pokes that Mgengar can kill without anything in return as long as it doesn't switch in. But even then it can kill a whole bunch if you REALLY needed something dead by taking the hit first. Before you say "if it can only kill things in revenge, then you have to sacrifice something to get it in!". Yes, this is true. But think of it like this: the star of the opponent's team is, say, talonflame. It's their talonflame versus your farfetch'd. You sacrifice farfetch'd in order to bring in mega gengar for free and take out their most valuble mon. You've essentially traded a weak mon for a strong one, equivalent to trading a pawn for a queen. Even if you're not sacrificing a trash pokemon, anything that fears mgengar on your opponent's team is basically useless. If they kill anything on your team, then mega gengar comes in and traps it. That's shutting something down without even being on the field.

Also, if you think mgengar can't take down offensive teams, what if you just slap destiny bond on it? Customize your set with the option of destiny bond, now it can take down at LEAST 2 pokemon.

 

[The Deceiver]

How do we prepare to deal with it?

Dealing with a mega gengar isn't a easy task, but firsty you need to scout what kind it is. they are with only attacks like shadow ball, sludge bomb, etc, they can easily be killed with sucker punch, unless they have substitute.

Now, there are other options to megagar that are becoming viable. Pesish song, substitute, protect and shadow ball. these are the ones coming up and unless you have something faster than your opponent, is going to be hard. Nevertheless, persuit, priority moves can handle with megagar. We can't say that actualy thiis or that pokemon counters megagar, but it's far of being indestrutible. Still has poor bulk.

 

[The Deceiver]

Exactly. Exactly exactly exactly exactly.

Revenge killing is something that is important in all Pokemon games. It is a fact of Pokemon.

However, guaranteed revenge killing is different. In all other situations, if there's a mon you have out that is being threatened by a revenge killer, you have two options. Take it like a man, allowing your own revenge killer to come in, or switch out and save your mon for another time down the road.

Now here we have a revenge killer with SHADOW TAG. Now, instead of two options, you have one. You want to save the mon for another time? MGengar goes "lolnope" and shits all over your mon. Sure, you can send in your revenge killer after. MGengar can now switch out and then do the above ALL OVER AGAIN.

I feel like a lot of posters here have no idea why Shadow Tag is such a good ability. "Oh, I can't switch, big deal." My friends, it IS a big deal.

Revenge killing is very important, but i doubt that makes a pokémon broken for that.

 

[MagicMissingno]

Dealing with a mega gengar isn't a easy task, but firsty you need to scout what kind it is. they are with only attacks like shadow ball, sludge bomb, etc, they can easily be killed with sucker punch, unless they have substitute.

Now, there are other options to megagar that are becoming viable. Pesish song, substitute, protect and shadow ball. these are the ones coming up and unless you have something faster than your opponent, is going to be hard. Nevertheless, persuit, priority moves can handle with megagar. We can't say that actualy thiis or that pokemon counters megagar, but it's far of being indestrutible. Still has poor bulk.

Okay, let me switch out, oh wait, I can't without running Shed Shell, U-Turn, Volt-Switch, or Baton Pass and that would make a stall team really poor. Maybe Hyper Offense and Bulky Offense can afford this but Defensive teams can't.

 

[Rechi]

Dealing with a mega gengar isn't a easy task, but firsty you need to scout what kind it is. they are with only attacks like shadow ball, sludge bomb, etc, they can easily be killed with sucker punch, unless they have substitute.

Now, there are other options to megagar that are becoming viable. Pesish song, substitute, protect and shadow ball. these are the ones coming up and unless you have something faster than your opponent, is going to be hard. Nevertheless, persuit, priority moves can handle with megagar. We can't say that actualy thiis or that pokemon counters megagar, but it's far of being indestrutible. Still has poor bulk.

This is literally every single poor anti-ban argument rolled into one post. Please go read Ginganinja's post back on page 22.

 

[farranpoison]

Dealing with a mega gengar isn't a easy task, but firsty you need to scout what kind it is. they are with only attacks like shadow ball, sludge bomb, etc, they can easily be killed with sucker punch, unless they have substitute.

Now, there are other options to megagar that are becoming viable. Pesish song, substitute, protect and shadow ball. these are the ones coming up and unless you have something faster than your opponent, is going to be hard. Nevertheless, persuit, priority moves can handle with megagar. We can't say that actualy thiis or that pokemon counters megagar, but it's far of being indestrutible. Still has poor bulk.

Sigh.

Ok, here we go.

You say, scout MGengar. Tell me, how exactly are you going to scout when you cannot switch into or out of it. Sure, first turn scout, before it MEvos. A good MGengar will either Sub, Protect, or use an attacking move (if they know there are no Pursuiters on your team). One move. This definitely tells a lot about its current moveset, right?

Priority moves kill MGengar? Yep. Yes they do. But only a total moron would leave MGengar in on a priority user. See, it can switch out. Its opponent can't.

Revenge killing is very important, but i doubt that makes a pokémon broken for that.

MGengar has just revenge killed your [insert mon here] which was the only thing stopping the rest of its team from sweeping you up like trash. Guaranteed. And there was nothing you could do about it. Not broken at all, no problem here.

 

[Tressed]

Revenge killing is very important, but i doubt that makes a pokémon broken for that.

Depends how inportant your Pokemon is. Is it Terrakion? You lose a win condition. Forretress? Hope you're okay with Stealth Rocks up for the rest of the match. Skarmory? Have fun getting swept bu Scizor. Unless your half your team is composed of fodder, losing a mon is crazy important, no matter how useless mah seem.

 

[Hallucination]

Has anyone mentioned Gengar trying to trap other things besides stall pokemon? Granted it has to get in smart but the following nonetheless

~Breloom
~Banded/scarfed Terrakion locked into Close Combat
~Scarfed/Spec keldeo locked into secret sword
-Reuniclus
~Jirachi
~Celebi
-Deo-D
-Espeon
~Latias
~Latios
-Starmie

~Notice how most of these pokemon will pick up in usage later on in the metagame.

~With Focus Blast it can proceed to take out TTar, Magnezone, and weakened Heatrans.

~There are more pokemon Xatu and Bronzong it would love to trap but I did not list because they are not OU on PS.

 

[Kyrk]

For all the people shouting from the rooftops that Mega Gengar has no counters, I've beaten it before and I'm pretty new to the competitive scene!

I beat a player's Arceus with a Pikachu once, should Arceus be unbanned? Just because you beat a pokemon that is arguably broken doesn't mean that it's not good.

Just speaking from my very little experience, I think there is one very large elephant in the room for why I think Mega Gengar might have ultimately been fine for OU.

Aegislash. Mega Gengar is completely stopped by Aegislash. I've killed a decent amount of Mega Gengars with it. in Shield Forme it has the bulk to survive Shadow Ball, and then it has the priority through Shadow Sneak to secure a KO or, at the bare minimum, force a switch.
Aegislash isn't a counter, it's a check. A counter would be able to easily resist and/or sponge any of Mega Gengar's attacks as well as having the ability to do something back. Unless you're running Life Orb or Choice Band, Mega Gengar will survive a priority Shadow Sneak from Aegislash, which will then get 1hko'd by Shadow Ball.

Sure Mega Gengar is a powerful Special Attacker, but on the bulk side, isn't it a bit of a glass cannon?
You underestimate Mega Gengar's bulk; base 80 defense and base 95 special defense is definitely not defensive stats of a glass cannon.
It can be killed from what I've seen.
A broken pokemon doesn't always mean it can't be defeated.
You just need to have something with the special bulk and an appropriate super-effective move to clean up. Aegislash isn't the only one, come Pokebank maybe even Jellicent will be quite nice as a Mega Gengar check if it can carry a super-effective Ghost move.
Please name a counter that can actually defeat any of Mega Gengar's sets. I can easily say that Aegislash and Jellicent are not counters. Even if you could successfully name a counter, you can't bring it out until after a pokemon of yours is KO'd thanks to the ability Shadow Tag.


Keep in mind that maybe the battles where I faced Mega Gengar were not the best, so maybe I'm missing something? like more bulky sets of Pain Split/Destiny Bond shenanigans?
Probably because your opponents aren't using it correctly. You can easily kill someone with a gun, but you still have to learn how to aim it.

What people don't seem to realize is that Mega Gengar's job isn't to 6-0 teams by itself, as it honestly can't due to the checks that exist for it, which are mostly scarfed or priority users due to Mega Gengar's base 130 speed being able to outspeed almost all unboosted pokemon; and while it has a reasonable amount of bulk, it can't switch into any attack. Its real job is to provide support by trapping and removing your teammate's checks/counters with Shadow Tag, its great offensive stats, and it's versatile moveset, giving your other pokemon a chance at sweeping. I hear complaints about it not being broken because it takes 1 whole turn for it to transform, meaning you can switch your pokemon out in preparation. However there aren't many pokemon that can actually switch into it without getting 1-2hko'd.

Now if you are saying priority attacks will always revenge kill it at full-HP, they won't, it's bulkier than you think. Even if it's at a low amount of HP, it can easily switch out (unless you predict with Pursuit) to be used to trap and take out another of your team's pokemon until it thinks it's done, uses Destiny Bond, and takes out yet another pokemon with it. This means that Mega Gengar's teammates have a much easier time setting up and sweeping since their counters/checks are gone.

 

[Fuzznip]

I think many of the people voting for MGengar to stay OU are overlooking the purpose of its existence. MGengar isn't doing the sweeping work, it's basically eliminating Pokemon that troubles your team's sweepers or defensive cores. I think this is where people are misunderstanding the reason why MGengar is an overpowered threat. If I'm not mistaken, I feel like many pro-OU's thought process basically boils down to something like this:

"Okay, sweet. MGengar only killed my Gliscor. Now I can take it out with Scizor using Pursuit! Now it won't finish off my other Pokemon!"

*Proceed to Pursuit trap Gengar for the sake of the scenario.*

"Yes! MGengar is gone! Whew, that was pretty easy. I'm not sure why people think this is so broken, haha! I just destroyed it."

*Proceed to get swept by Lucario for the sake of the scenario.*

"Damn, stupid Lucario swept me! I hate Lucario, he's so strong! My team is so weak to him, I'm gonna use Gyarados as well now to stop it."

So, I think some people are just ignoring the fact that MGengar is the sole reason why you're getting swept by Pokemon X, and instead, blame it on their own team for not carrying multiple answers to Pokemon X. People, your teams aren't weak to these sweepers or what have you, MGengar is simply forcing you to be weak to them in such an effective manner, which is why it's such a stupidly broken Pokemon roaming in the metagame.

 

[Lord Wallace]

In theory, Mega-Gengar is Uber. In practice, it really isn't too scary to be honest. Yes I realize I'll get crucified for this, and yes I realize this is probably because I play offense, but it DOES have to spend a whole turn Mega-evolving and if you are constantly firing off powerful hits, it can only come in on the revenge. As Zracknel pointed out in his post ya'll need to read, Mega-Gengar is a really strong tool, but it still rewards good play on your part and punishes the opponent for their mistakes. As people have pointed out, its great with VoltTurn support, but now all of a sudden you are running support for a support mon, and you've got one specific team archetype that Gengar is best in (trapping offense?). Gengar is also best on offensive teams, which rely on precious momentum and really, really, really, do not like cedeing it to find an opportunity to Mega-Evolve, especially against opposing offense. There have been points against stall when I wished I had my MGar back, but against offense there were very few times when I missed it and almost always I was very happy to have Kanghaskhan instead. This brings up another point...

I'd also like to hear some discussion on the Megas and MGar's opportunity cost.. Using Gengar is a very real cost in that you can't use other excellent mons such as Mega-Lucario and Khangaskhan (who would both love MGar support btw). That has to be considered when deciding on a ban. Overall, since Mega-stones are the new mechanic in XY, I'd argue that we should think really long and hard before banning them and really consider how they interplay

I don't like Gengar because of how easily it dismantles defensive team archetypes, but I don't think that it is as obviously broken as the majority of people are making it out to be. So I'm gonna change my mind and say that we should do an actual suspect test on this guy instead of a quickban

This.
As someome running Semi-stall I can safely say that while M-Gengar is a formidable force it still isnt inherently broken in practice as to quick ban like say Blaziken.
While its true that its difficult to prevent M-Gengar from doing its job, its job doesnt involve singlehandedly dismantling teams necessarily -cough- Kangaskhan -cough- . I think a suspect test is warranted, not a quick ban.

Honestly, I would be okay with both Khan and Gengar Mega staying in OU, but theres no way in hell M-Gengar is more broken than M-Khan.

 

[Fafnir]

I would argue that Megakhan would certainly be deserving of a quickban over Megagar, mostly for the reason that getting things right with Megagar takes at least a slight bit of forsight. It's pretty hard to mess up with Megakhan. Either way, neither are at all healthy for OU play in the slightest.

 

[Chazman]

Please remember that this thread is about Mega Gengar, not any of the other megas. Some might also end up getting sent to Ubers in the future, but right now they are not part of this discussion. futhermore, you cant compare mega gengar to mega khan like you are doing. They fit two different roles. Mega Gengar is, without a doubt, the best wall breaker in the game. Mega Khan is a sweeper, plain and simple. attempting to compare the two is like attempting to compare a tank to a sniper rifle. two completely different roles and purposes.

 

[Fafnir]

Fair enough.

In any case, one of the additional strengths of Megagar that isn't mentioned as often as his 'master key' capabilities is just the threat of its very existence. The simple fact that Megagar can happen is enough to be a considerable boost to even normal Gengar, since it forces the opponent to make decisions that could compromise their team which they normally wouldn't make. Instead of countering Gengar normally, the player is essentially forced to waste a turn switching, lest they potentially face the wrath of Mega Gengar.

 

[SergantGold]

While there is nothing new to discuss, i would just like to say to the people that are going on about how Meha Gengar lacks, counters, and that is simply false because
A. It doesn't trap from turn 1. I honestly think most of the viable pursuit trappers can take enough hits to kill it.
B. Ghosts can switch out of Mega Gengar. If you see it in team preview, lead with it or whatever to make sure that the ghost/mega gengar counter is out when they go to evolve/revenge.
People have to remeber that unless you lead with Mega Gengar and run protect on it, it has to take a turn for its ability to actually activate, and that turn can be spent switching into a counter or KOing its defences that are the equivilent of the 2 ply TP in my bathroom.
Or of couse you could just pussy out and run Chestnaught till pokebank.

 

[AOPSUser]

While there is nothing new to discuss, i would just like to say to the people that are going on about how Meha Gengar lacks, counters, and that is simply false because
A. It doesn't trap from turn 1. I honestly think most of the viable pursuit trappers can take enough hits to kill it.
B. Ghosts can switch out of Mega Gengar. If you see it in team preview, lead with it or whatever to make sure that the ghost/mega gengar counter is out when they go to evolve/revenge.
People have to remeber that unless you lead with Mega Gengar and run protect on it, it has to take a turn for its ability to actually activate, and that turn can be spent switching into a counter or KOing its defences that are the equivilent of the 2 ply TP in my bathroom.
Or of couse you could just pussy out and run Chestnaught till pokebank.

A. Aegislash loses most of its health to Shadow Ball and has a chance to get flat out OHKOed if it's not the bulky SD version, and doesn't even use Pursuit most of the time. Tyranitar loses to Focus Blast 49% of the time no matter what. Scizor dies to a potential HP Fire and cannot switch in on Shadow Ball unless running heavy SpD investment. Also I always Sub turn 1 if the opponent still has a potential Pursuiter alive.

B: Great, you'll switch your Aegislash into my Mega Gengar just so you can switch out again or take 70-80% damage if you try staying in. Or Trevenant, which takes a shitton as well.

 

[Chazman]

While there is nothing new to discuss, i would just like to say to the people that are going on about how Meha Gengar lacks, counters, and that is simply false because
A. It doesn't trap from turn 1. I honestly think most of the viable pursuit trappers can take enough hits to kill it.
B. Ghosts can switch out of Mega Gengar. If you see it in team preview, lead with it or whatever to make sure that the ghost/mega gengar counter is out when they go to evolve/revenge.
People have to remeber that unless you lead with Mega Gengar and run protect on it, it has to take a turn for its ability to actually activate, and that turn can be spent switching into a counter or KOing its defences that are the equivilent of the 2 ply TP in my bathroom.
Or of couse you could just pussy out and run Chestnaught till pokebank.

both of these points have been discussed, and ruled out. For the first one, you go mega evolve and protect. oh look, now you have shadow tag and took no damage. next turn you swap out Mega Gengar for something that counters whats currently in play, and now you have Mega Gengar waiting in the wings to shut down the major threats to your sweepers. Protect only uses up one slot, and 70-80% of the gengar builds run it. and its defenses actually arent all that bad. and if you switch to something to counter it with, it just flees after having been mega evolved. For the second one, pretty much every ghost type dies to shadow ball from Mega Gengar. you dont want to swap any of the ghosts in on him. and by the way, he can two shot chestnaught.

 

[WhinoTheRhino]

Sorry if this is off-topic, and please delete this if it doesn't add anything to the discussion, but I believe Gengarite should be quick-banned simply because a suspect test will take far too much time and effort. Is MGengar overpowered? No one can say for sure. But considering the way this thread is going, there is a very high chance Gengarite will be banned in a suspect test. I believe that the small chance Gengarite has for not being banned in a suspect test is not enough to warrant one. I even originally supported not banning Gengarite, but suspect tests simply take too much time and effort when there is about an 85% chance of a certain outcome to occur.

 

[Chillarmy]

Revenge killing is very important, but i doubt that makes a pokémon broken for that.

Plenty of users ITT have already debunked this idea, but I'd like to put my two cents in here as well.

It isn't just about revenge killing; unlike Gothitelle and Wobbuffet, Mega Gengar, due to its high power, coverage, and speed, has a much more varied pool of Pokemon that it can almost assuredly trap. Because of this, the player using Mega Gengar isn't obligated to fodder it off after successfully trapping a seemingly important member of the opposing team. More clearly, Mega Gengar is more than capable of safely gaining or regaining momentum in many relevant situations, making it extremely valuable to any team accompanying it. Granted, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, as many wallbreakers and revenge killers alike can control momentum in a different manner, but because of Gengar's expansive movepool, it's possible to invalidate the importance of team synergy; i.e, you can build a team around Mega Gengar, rather than a team based on it.

When building a team from scratch, the first step is usually starting with a base--a Pokemon or core that the team works toward supporting--and, with proper choices, the team will result in a solid flow of synergy among each Pokemon. Mega Gengar, because of its trapping capabilities, can be--and I'm riding off of Innocent Criminals' point made earlier in the thread--completely independent of its team, only serving as a very unpredictable and effective momentum snatcher. Other Pokemon, such as Rotom-W (easiest Pokemon to use in XY lol), Ditto, and Genesect (but fuck that thing, it's broken too), are definitely comparable in terms of utility, but bring about multiple hindering and off-putting traits. Gengar, while frail, has the option of somewhat invalidating the traditional means of taking advantages of its cons (being weak to Pursuit and not overwhelmingly fast or powerful without submitting to the negative consequences of using certain items), lessening the need to accommodate its team for it.

Moreover, a lot of the pro-OU arguments for likely broken Mega Evolutions, that I've seen at least, assume that the Pokemon in question has already transformed. Gengar is already revered as a top offensive threat, especially with the huge offensive boost Ghosts received in XY; because of this fact, unlike Kangaskhan and Pinsir, two undoubtedly tyrannous Mega Evolutions, Gengar doesn't even need to transform to be of high use to its team. What does this mean? It's realistically possible for Gengar take on a completely different set of threats, such as bulky grounds and [dumb] Mega Kangaskhan that lack Earthquake, Fire Punch, and Crunch, while still having the option of being an effective trapper. In addition, though rather situational, Gengar can even feign Gengarite and take advantage of the assumptions the opposition makes--Choice items are what I'm mostly referring to here--and potentially deal more damage than it's Mega Evolution. With so many weapons at its disposal, Gengar is... rather tough, if not just downright impossible to [traditionally] keep in check.

Really, it's impossible to find something else in OU that has this many deadly options 9.9

 

[Ilan]

both of these points have been discussed, and ruled out. For the first one, you go mega evolve and protect. oh look, now you have shadow tag and took no damage. next turn you swap out Mega Gengar for something that counters whats currently in play, and now you have Mega Gengar waiting in the wings to shut down the major threats to your sweepers. Protect only uses up one slot, and 70-80% of the gengar builds run it. and its defenses iactually arent all that bad. and if you switch to something to counter it with, it just flees after having been mega evolved. For the second one, pretty much every ghost type dies to shadow ball from Mega Gengar. you dont want to swap any of the ghosts in on him. and by the way, he can two shot chestnaught.

Not really he is immube to all of gengar's moves..
I didn't have much trouble with gengar and he didnt feel that strong using him but I didn't play too much. Still I believe he is easily weared down without black sludge.

 

[ColtCababa]

Like Blaziken, I believe M-Gengar will force you to utilize a counter for it on your team, hence it can survive a myriad of attacks from priority and Scarfers, many of which have low enough Sp. Def for M-Gengar to OHKO and severely threaten in return, as well as trap things that would absolutely never want to be trapped, therefore limiting the aspect of choice upon teams and removing the fun aspect of play. Therefore, I fully support the banishment of Gengarite.

 

[Chazman]

Not really he is immube to all of gengar's moves..
I didn't have much trouble with gengar and he didnt feel that strong using him but I didn't play too much. Still I believe he is easily weared down without black sludge.

No he isn't. there is this really fun move named sludge wave that gets around bulletproof. yes, only DW ghastly's can have sludge wave, but it makes an amazing replacement for sludge bomb. then you have psychic, which is super effective against chesnaught due to its fighting type, and you can breed it for HP Fire, which is also super effective. and i can probably come up with four or five more moves that allow MGengar to two shot chesnaught, moves that it might want to run anyways, depending on what you need it to kill.