I thought people were going to perish song the turn something comes in. I mean, that's the counterargument all the pro-ban people are giving, that when whatever mons switches out, they perish song, protect, substitute, then fade away.I am tired of seeing this argument. It is totally absurd, and it getting old to even be funny.
No Mengar user who is not drunk and under the influence of team rocket, team snagem, team skull, team dim sun, team meanies, Cipher, Phobos Battalion, Pokémon Pinchers, team galactic, team plasma, team flare, team aqua, team magma, Mylie Cyrus, Brittany Speares, and Justin Bieber would switch Mengar into a pursuit user.
Your pursuit trapper cannot switch in. therefore gengar has already trapped whatever it needs to open up a sweep.. for examples mega gengar takes out your gliscor, you teams only counter to lucario (to play more mindgames as for whom you want to mega). You can pursuit it with your tyranitar as much you like, but lucario is still sweeping the rest of your team. Gengar takes you your major counter to open up a sweep. Mengar is a utility pokemon, meaning that after it does it's job of removing your counter, it has no further use anymore. Whether or not you pursuited it does not matter: you're still getting swept by lucario.
Gengar chooses what it traps. After that, it's pretty much gg. mega left or not, you still lose.
Also, no half-intelligent person would try to perish trap a prankster user. It simply does not make sense. If you still wish to argue on, please read the last 10 pages and realize how broken your argument is, like mega gengar.
I was going to post "this post gave me cancer" but I'll try to be constructive. You have a completely different outlook on competitive Pokemon, and I hope a lot of the votes for no ban didn't use this logic. At some point there needs to be some sort of balance, and in terms of revenge killing and trapping (mainly trapping and removing counters for your team to sweep), I don't think any Pokemon comes close to Gengar. It is too good at its role. Its not super strong and its role is not to be super strong and sweep. Skim through pages around 14-16 and you would get a better idea, I don't need to repeat it.So, at least the way I see it, Mega-Gengar shouldn't be banned. And here's why.
1st off: Why do we ban things at all? Well, it's because they either take the skill out of the game or severely limit the viaility of certain Pokémon simply because completely better pokémon exist. And this isn't really an outright ban on Mega Gengar; it's just moving it into a higher tier. And the tiers are a good idea, I think just about everyone will agree. And if you don't then you can still play übers, which is basically no tiers mode anyway.
So lets look at why it might be put in übers, as opposed to OU. Well, does it take the skill out of OU? I say no. Simply put, it's a fantastic revenge killer. But it won't sweep. It can't boost all that well, is easily revenge killed in turn by most fast scarfers, and honestly just doesn't beat that much of OU. It reminds me of gen 4 OU, when there were entire strategies around scouting for arena trap dugtrio. Certainly it was a threat to be prepared for. But Does that mean it should be in ubers only? I say no, simply because it lacks the destructive power, or even the support options of most Uber Pokémon. We don't ban pokémon simply because they force people to play a little differently. We just adapt our strategies and move on.
Mega Gengar is good. no doubt about it. But it's not a "get one good switch/free turn with this thing and win automatically" good. It's not the nuclear bomb that Blaziken is, or the divine judgement that is Arceus. It's a trapper with perish song, and destiny bond and taunt and sub/protect. Certainly it's deadly to teams that are so poorly made that they can't get around it. But that holds true of almost every good pokémon.
Overall, Mega Gengar is, at least to me, no different from paraflinch Jiarachi. Extremely annoying and dangerous, but beatable if you play smart, and are willing to make the occasional sacrifice for victory.
Hasn't this been disproved many times already? Kyogre has Water Spout. That's countered by Gastrodon, Jellicent, heck even Shedinja. Hydreigon, on the other hand, has no true counter since it has so many sets. Reminding again the definition fo counter: "something that can switch on another pokemon easily". Nothing can really switch in on Perish Song except Mr. Mime but that gets OHKOed by Shadow Ball. In fact, PerishTrap isn't even its best set. Taunt + 3 attacks is its best. So please, enough of this "counter" nonsense. Also, MGengar doesn't and isn't meant to sweep. It removes the counter(s) for the team's sweeper.I am beginning to see why people think Mega-Gengar needs to be banned. With the sheer amount of points listed, various calcs and detailed explanation, it is not an easy feat for the anti-bans (me included, but please don't be bias and stop reading >.<) Theoretically, it seems that Mega-Gengar is virtually unstoppable bar prediction and VERY specific counters, being blessed with shadow tag and a huge movepool. Honestly, I think this is all only on paper. Practicality wise, I really don't think perfect scenarios like these exist. Bringing in Gengar is a problem already. Sure, with 3 immunities, it isn't that hard right? Team Preview. Unless playing against bottom-feeders, people will play very cautiously against Gengars making it a prediction game all over again. And switching Gengar in and out after trapping, hazards are a major hazard, Sticky Web in particular. Don't forget, Levitate is gone. As the pro-bans always say, Mega-Gengar doesn't sweep. That is precisely why I do not think Mega-Gengar deserves the insta-ban. If it plows through the entire OU and is completely unwallable with no reliable counters, then I'd say it has to be ban. Unless someone here can tell me that they've reached top 10 in Pokebank OU with a Mega-Gengar consistently, I'm still sticking with Mega-Gengar being manageable.
That is exactly my point. Those are the exact points that also show that Mega-Gengar doesn't need to be banned. Just because it isn't meant to sweep. It's because it's role in a team is a support which is why I do not think it deserves a ban. Perish Song is easily countered by U-turn/Volt Switch because of switch out priorities. All of his sets, once known, can be worked around it. Otherwise, why aren't any of the pro-banners in Top 10 for Pokebank OU?Hasn't this been disproved many times already? Kyogre has Water Spout. That's countered by Gastrodon, Jellicent, heck even Shedinja. Hydreigon, on the other hand, has no true counter since it has so many sets. Reminding again the definition fo counter: "something that can switch on another pokemon easily". Nothing can really switch in on Perish Song except Mr. Mime but that gets OHKOed by Shadow Ball. In fact, PerishTrap isn't even its best set. Taunt + 3 attacks is its best. So please, enough of this "counter" nonsense. Also, MGengar doesn't and isn't meant to sweep. It removes the counter(s) for the team's sweeper.
Let's take a few Gen V precedents where bans have been made because Pokemon were making it too easy for their teammates to sweep:IMega-Gengar doesn't sweep. That is precisely why I do not think Mega-Gengar deserves the insta-ban. If it plows through the entire OU and is completely unwallable with no reliable counters, then I'd say it has to be ban.
This is a good point. I agree with it till the part where Mega-Gengar is considered worse than any of the above. I beg to differ. Mega-Gengar is claimed to be worse because he 'easily' traps counters to your team. Taunt I can understand, Perish Song to an extent as well (once again, volt turners) and Destiny Bond as a last resort (can be played around tho). But comparing this to things like Deo-S and Froslass, those were DEFINITE threats while Mega-Gengar depends on the team. Even if they were predictable, they possessed the movepool and or typing + ability to execute their job without hindrance. To reiterate, you couldn't do anything about it even though you knew what was coming (bar the very specific counters, ie. Prankster Taunts). This was also why Genesect was banned from OU because you couldn't do anything about U-turn and that one move alone provided so much momentum, similar to the entry hazards. Mega-Gengar however, is arguably alot less predictable, true, but you are certain that it is going to be trapping counters. This knowledge in itself is Mega-Gengar's bane, turning the entire game into a game of prediction again. (ex. you know what he wants to send M-Gengar against so you take preventive measures but he might expect that and counters etc.) Unlike the other bans, M-Gengar has nothing to bring up on the table INSTANTLY (hazards, momentum etc.) and that means you can play around it. He definitely suffers from 4-moveslot syndrome and the reason is because he needs everything to be the perfect team support. Sure, customizing his moves to suit your team can CUT DOWN the chances of it being countered but it doesn't COMPLETELY ERASE, just like customizing any other Pokemon's moves. Kinda hard to explain this point but I hope you get it.Let's take a few Gen V precedents where bans have been made because Pokemon were making it too easy for their teammates to sweep:
OU Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D: These Pokemon did not plough mercilessly through entire teams. However, they could get up Stealth Rock and and a layer of Spikes, guaranteed, pretty much every match, and had enough of a movepool to defeat every spinner and magic bouncer that tried to stop them. With the enemy ranks cluttered with hazards, it became a lot easier for the likes of Dragonite to sweep, so much so that it was deemed broken. Result: banned.
UU Froslass: Froslass again could reliably put up two layers of Spikes, with a naturally fast Taunt to prevent the opposition ruining her plans, Cursed Body to screw over Choice Scarf users trying to kill her before she laid the hazards, a Ghost-typing to prevent them being spun away, and Destiny Bond to take out one opponent. Result? Against Froslass leads there wasn't much you could do about being 5-5 with several layers of Spikes against you a few turns into the battle. Froslass made sweeping that much easier for her teammates, and there wasn't a lot you could do about her. Result: banned.
RU SmashPass: Lead Smeargle could reliably Spore a lead, Shell Smash on the switch and pass to the likes of Nidoqueen who would rampage through the opponent. Again, Smeargle made it too easy for teammates to sweep. Result: Shell Smash + Baton Pass banned.
In each case, these were bans made because a Pokemon made it too easy for its teammates sweep. Mega-Gengar is infinitely worse than any of these in that regard. Not only broken sweepers should be banned, we can easily ban broken walls and broken supporters too - I have just prevented three suspects of that third kind that ended up getting banned. Mega-Gengar fits very much into that third category - the amount of stuff he can trap is just frightening. And if he traps a team's one counter to a certain threat, then he has done his job; with 130 base speed, Taunt, Destiny Bond and Perish Song there is very little he can't trap. Moreover he can customize his set to deal with whatever the sweeper he is clearing the way for can't beat on his own.
Bahaha, top 10 in pokebank. I have talked with 5 of the top ten (me being one of them) on PS! and have played all but the top ranked user. We really aren't all that. It ends up being you whois the top ten to see who is on and then develop an idea of how to beat them. I will say this, though, in that top 10, I do not recall a mega gengar existing... I ran mawile, Qseasons was running Lucario (not sure if that changed) RS generally runs a different team for every account (I really think it's Lucario and Kan for his top 10 accounts), McBarrett runs scizor (says someone in the OU room, couldn't recall myself), and Esperante (he got provisional again but is #2 otherwise) runs mega heracross. If you want to verify, I'm Aj'sDreamsDied and you can check with the OU room guys.. Unless someone here can tell me that they've reached top 10 in Pokebank OU with a Mega-Gengar consistently, I'm still sticking with Mega-Gengar being manageable.
I thought people were going to perish song the turn something comes in. I mean, that's the counterargument all the pro-ban people are giving, that when whatever mons switches out, they perish song, protect, substitute, then fade away.
So if they try to do that to a wall, the wall can flee away to a counter like that one pursuit user, or a prankster user. If they try to perish trap an offensive pokémon, the poke can probably do enough damage on the perish song turn and retaliate after the protect turn later. But nobody would switch in perish song gengar against an offensive poke, obviously.
So, pro-banners are going in an endless discussion - because they are leaving out the parts that counter their own argument in purpose: The anti-ban arguments based on counters work as follows: either you switch out first turn against a counter and then sacrifice the counter to get rid of gengar, or you stay because your poke can deal damage and take out gengar with a perish turn attack + priority. But people try to counter these arguments by ignoring that you can switch out first turn (nobody would send a gengar against a counter, specially a pursuit trapper) or by asuming that everyone switches in first turn (everybody will send their priority users on perish turn and not deal enough damage to take out gengar on substitute turn).
And I don't think that's unintended. Maybe it's because I'm too much into politics, but it seems like common argument manipulation to me.
And I'm only taking two anti-ban arguments that are being tergiversated, but the same tactics are being used to every other argument. Taking out parts that are crucial in the environment the argument is used on to turn it into an invalid one.
As someone who can identify logical fallacies when I see one, let me explain why this is unfair as a whole. Both posts go after specific posts (Jude more so to Yellow and Curtains definitely to Rexxx) and say that everyone arguing the pro-ban side has done the same. This is simply not true, especially in Curtains' case where this is a very specific user that was then expanded to encompass the whole lot of us. Also, the idea that A.) We (specifically I) are leaving out crucial parts and B.) We (specifically not me) are ignoring points are both untrue. The pro-ban side has a great deal of points that have been made, both good and bad.This thread is sad because it has just become the pro ban side literally cursing out users and the anti-ban side struggling to counter the paragraphs of whining. I think it is alot tougher for the anti ban side to make an argument based on the point that the metagame is so so fresh and it is way easier to point to this stat, and that stat, and that stat, and this user that thinks its broken, and this ability and this teammate and just throw up your hands and call it broken. Then the anti ban side has to counter every single point or his/her argument is worthless or just gets ignored all together even though it makes some sense and it doesn't contain f bombs every sentence or stupid mspaint drawings (because that worked well for keldeo). With that said I think it should be banned. It is the best revenge killer in the game and the best overall user of shadow tag. Regular gengar with Shadow tag would be broken so with the stat increases it is just over the top imo. Thanks , come again.
Point taken about prediction working both ways, but consider this:This is a good point. I agree with it till the part where Mega-Gengar is considered worse than any of the above. I beg to differ. Mega-Gengar is claimed to be worse because he 'easily' traps counters to your team. Taunt I can understand, Perish Song to an extent as well (once again, volt turners) and Destiny Bond as a last resort (can be played around tho). But comparing this to things like Deo-S and Froslass, those were DEFINITE threats while Mega-Gengar depends on the team. Even if they were predictable, they possessed the movepool and or typing + ability to execute their job without hindrance. To reiterate, you couldn't do anything about it even though you knew what was coming (bar the very specific counters, ie. Prankster Taunts). This was also why Genesect was banned from OU because you couldn't do anything about U-turn and that one move alone provided so much momentum, similar to the entry hazards. Mega-Gengar however, is arguably alot less predictable, true, but you are certain that it is going to be trapping counters. This knowledge in itself is Mega-Gengar's bane, turning the entire game into a game of prediction again. (ex. you know what he wants to send M-Gengar against so you take preventive measures but he might expect that and counters etc.) Unlike the other bans, M-Gengar has nothing to bring up on the table INSTANTLY (hazards, momentum etc.) and that means you can play around it. He definitely suffers from 4-moveslot syndrome and the reason is because he needs everything to be the perfect team support. Sure, customizing his moves to suit your team can CUT DOWN the chances of it being countered but it doesn't COMPLETELY ERASE, just like customizing any other Pokemon's moves. Kinda hard to explain this point but I hope you get it.
Fair point. Didn't really think through the prediction game. Hazards will be detrimental to this. Also, I guess this is a soft counter in a way? Stops Gengar from doing it's job, albeit temporarily. I do understand it's not very reliable in most situations. Will think through more scenarios.Point taken about prediction working both ways, but consider this:
Gengar comes in on a wall that is preventing a teammate sweeping and traps it. Gengar's team subsequently wins with ease. "Fair enough", you might say, "you lost that because you mispredicted".
Now consider what happens if you DO predict correctly and switch to your Choice Scarf user that can revenge-kill Gengar. Gengar just switches out again so he can try to trap the wall later! Gengar could potentially get three or four tries to do this, and if you guess wrong once, Gengar wins. That doesn't seem fair.
From what I can tell, that's the important point. Every argument is situational. Gengar is a situational Pokémon. The critical thing is, the Mega-Gengar user gets to decide the situation thanks to Shadow Tag, which means that the Mega Gengar can easily be set up to take advantage of that specific situation.There's way too many SPECIFIC situational arguments being thrown around. Only problem I'd say he can't be countered, I've only seen a scarfed imposter Ditto force him out at will.
The problem is that Mega Gengar gets rid of that pokemon that was the only thing between that Mega Lucario and you. If I have aThat is exactly my point. Those are the exact points that also show that Mega-Gengar doesn't need to be banned. Just because it isn't meant to sweep. It's because it's role in a team is a support which is why I do not think it deserves a ban. Perish Song is easily countered by U-turn/Volt Switch because of switch out priorities. All of his sets, once known, can be worked around it. Otherwise, why aren't any of the pro-banners in Top 10 for Pokebank OU?
I agree on everything you said but I hope you meant regular Lucario because you can't use Mega Lucario and Mega Gengar on the same team.The problem is that Mega Gengar gets rid of that pokemon that was the only thing between that Mega Lucario and you. If I have a Mega Lucario that I want to sweep with, and Skarmory was in the way, I would merely slap on Mega Gengar to my team and Thunderbolt on Mega Gengar.
This is what keeps banning Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D every Generation. Isn't the point of this clause, as my brother once put it, "to make sure Pokemon that do their job well stay and those that do it TOO well go"?Sweepers are not the only things to be banned. We are trying to quick ban Mega Gengar based on the Uber support clause.
Welcome to the party, mate! Glad to hear this thread helped you out.From what I can tell, that's the important point. Every argument is situational. Gengar is a situational Pokémon. The critical thing is, the Mega-Gengar user gets to decide the situation thanks to Shadow Tag, which means that the Mega Gengar can easily be set up to take advantage of that specific situation.
I'm a new member of the community, and very, very new to competitive battling. I'd like to take a moment to thank everyone who has posted here in this thread. I've learned a ton (even if it took forever to read through it all), about the metagame, Smogon's systems and rules for handling bans, different ways to take advantage of situations, and more. Even though I think the decision is clear at this time (and probably was clear since the thread started), just seeing all the discussion has given me a ton of insight.
By the way, I saw the huge list of things that Mega-Gengar can effectively trap kill, and I am wondering: How does it fare against the other Megas one-on-one? I do understand that it won't matter, as Mega-Gengar doesn't have to stay in against a Pokémon it can't take one-on-one, but I'm curious to see which ones would fall on the list.
One final question: Is Sludge Wave from a Dream World Gastly only, or can it be bred or otherwise transferred to another Gengar by some means?
That's an absurd statement.Unless someone here can tell me that they've reached top 10 in Pokebank OU with a Mega-Gengar consistently, I'm still sticking with Mega-Gengar being manageable.
Mega Manetric actually outspeeds you if it's running Timid.Welcome to the party, mate! Glad to hear this thread helped you out.
As for the other Megas, its worth noting that Megas should be treated like any other Pokemon, not as anything special. Also, you really don't want to do one on one battles with Mega Gengar, you want to be picking off weakened or helpless Pokemon. That said...
The rest of them are handled as you would any other Pokemon: Pick them off when it appeals to you.
- Mega Kangaskan is a head game. Sucker Punch and Earthquake both kill Mega Gengar, but Mega Gengar can hit it hard with Focus Blast or go for Destiny Bond to take it out.
- Mega Absol and Mega Mawile are similar, but Gengar can avoid being hit by using Substitute.
- Mega Lucario is going to get wrecked unless it runs Bullet Punch, which is going to hurt if not OHKO, or if it runs a mixed or special set with Flash Cannon or Shadow Ball and hits it on the switch in.
- Mega Tyranitar takes a ton of damage from Focus Blast, but can take the hit in sandstorm and OHKO with Crunch, or alternatively OHKO with Pursuit if Gengar switches out. Also, after a Dragon Dance Mega Tar actually outspeeds you and OHKOs, so that's something to keep in mind.
- Mega Aerodactyl outspeeds you.
- Mega Manectric speed ties with you and can escape with Volt Switch.
- Mega Medicham is crazy risky to challenge. You can self damage it with High Jump Kick, but Psycho Cut OHKOs you so it isn't a good switch in. It also gets Bullet Punch, which probably won't OHKO but will certainly pick off a weakened Mega Gengar.