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gimmick sets, discussion threads, and you
- Thread starter chaos
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This thread seems to already have enough flames going back and forth so I'll skip talking about what other people said.
However, I'd like to clarify for newer users just how gimmick sets work. Gimmick sets, like TyraniBoah and McGar, dont become popular through theororizing. First someone will think them up, but instead of posting them on smogons message boards where they know they will be unpopular, they test it thoroughly by doing calculations and play testing it. Then they take said gimmick set out into the metagame and win. Then the movesets presence is made known by the higher ups and competitive community, and only THEN does it get posted on smogon and accepted by the community as standard.
That is the life cycle of the gimmick set, whether it be pokemon or yu-gi-oh or MTG. People who truly believe their gimmick sets are effective wont post them, they play with them.
Rant done. Over and OUT.
edit: oh yeah, another thing about gimmick sets is that usually only top tier pokemon can pull them off, because they're higher stats(or whatever makes them good) make up for the loss of effectiveness should you find yourself in a detrimental situation. Also, you need a decent movepool to make a gimmick set. So leafeon isnt really a good pokemon to make a gimmick set with, looking at its 6 viable moves.
However, I'd like to clarify for newer users just how gimmick sets work. Gimmick sets, like TyraniBoah and McGar, dont become popular through theororizing. First someone will think them up, but instead of posting them on smogons message boards where they know they will be unpopular, they test it thoroughly by doing calculations and play testing it. Then they take said gimmick set out into the metagame and win. Then the movesets presence is made known by the higher ups and competitive community, and only THEN does it get posted on smogon and accepted by the community as standard.
That is the life cycle of the gimmick set, whether it be pokemon or yu-gi-oh or MTG. People who truly believe their gimmick sets are effective wont post them, they play with them.
Rant done. Over and OUT.
edit: oh yeah, another thing about gimmick sets is that usually only top tier pokemon can pull them off, because they're higher stats(or whatever makes them good) make up for the loss of effectiveness should you find yourself in a detrimental situation. Also, you need a decent movepool to make a gimmick set. So leafeon isnt really a good pokemon to make a gimmick set with, looking at its 6 viable moves.
I really take offense to your blanket use of "gimmick set". To me, a gimmick set is a set that's intentionally ineffective except in a handful of circumstances, usually relying on surprise to pull off. It is a set that, by its very nature, loses effectiveness if it ever becomes popular.
Hmm.
1)Talk is cheap. Your Dig Leafeon may seem like a decent idea in theory, but even I see that it offers much less than Roar or even Grasswhistle. If you have a Heatran problem, why not use a Heatran counter, instead of a half-baked theory? Go battle and see your idea's merit instead acting like you know better.
2)By posting the idea on a public forum, you have exposed your gimmick. I happen to have a good Heatran, and I'll likely use him. And if I see you have a Leafeon, I might just decide to switch in something else. A team likely has more than one pokemon that switch into Leafeon easily....
1)Talk is cheap. Your Dig Leafeon may seem like a decent idea in theory, but even I see that it offers much less than Roar or even Grasswhistle. If you have a Heatran problem, why not use a Heatran counter, instead of a half-baked theory? Go battle and see your idea's merit instead acting like you know better.
2)By posting the idea on a public forum, you have exposed your gimmick. I happen to have a good Heatran, and I'll likely use him. And if I see you have a Leafeon, I might just decide to switch in something else. A team likely has more than one pokemon that switch into Leafeon easily....
Well perhaps we should nail down the definition of gimmick before continuing this discussion. The sides drawn in this debate are almost clearly between the two definitions of gimmick, and it is pointless to debate the legitimacy of "gimmicks" until we know exactly what a gimmick is.
I have a Salamence and a Metagross. Both are wonderful switch-ins. Perhaps I would be being overly-cautious, but what am I losing? The point is that Heatran isn't the only thing that switches safely into Leafeon, a lot of things do. So to pick Leafeon to be the bait isn't wise, as it's just as likely to draw in a sweeper like Metagross who either wants to fish for a switch or agility to start cleaning up. He's not going to take much from Dig, but, more importantly, he shrugs off Leaf Blade and X-Scissor. I know you espoused the gimmick, and I'll be wary of it in the event I battle you. Like I said, many teams have pokemon who can switch in on Leafeon as easily as Heatran. And, if I think your Leafeon doesn't have Roar, all the better for setting up. If I'm wrong, the opportunity cost isn't high. You're thinking about the scenario and the gimmick too simply. You aren't seeing the forest for the trees, as they say.
I think the reason Syrne and the others are so pissed is that they work so hard to come up with movesets. They do calculations, run tests, and study each Pokemon extensively to find its place in the "Kingdom" of Pokemon. Mean while, new users come in like they own the place and post movesets that are "PWNzorz" without running a single test and going only on typing and what could work in theory alone.
Bottom Line: They don't like it when people post movesets that will be praised by newbies, when in reality the guy doesn't even know what the fuck he's talking about.
Bottom Line: They don't like it when people post movesets that will be praised by newbies, when in reality the guy doesn't even know what the fuck he's talking about.
The main problem we're facing is that this is all really just "theorymon". In my opninion (let's hope I don't start another fucking argument like I did in #smogon), Pokémon is much easier to play in theory than many other games (Street Fighter, Warcraft), mainly because you have fewer options (generally only nine each turn, as opposed to like 30 in Street Fighter, and almost infinite in Warcraft), and also because these choices can be thought over thoroughly before being made. Furthermore (and this might take experience in all three games to understand), a pro (let's just say goofball, he's pretty good) using a "gimmicky" strategy against an average-above average player (me) is not very effective in Pokémon, simply because the limited options don't allow for a very big skill gap between pro and above average.
On the other hand, I am routinely beaten by better players than me who rush Pally+Morts (a decidedly gimmicky strategy), or play SA III Twelve (also extremely gimmicky). This is the part where my argument kind of falls off, because I have difficulty finding exactly what it is that makes this the case, so I just say "play the 3 games and see for yourself." I'm sure someone more logically inclined than I might be able to see exactly what it is, but I'm asking you to take my word for it. Anyways, I'm really getting off track here.
Right now, Pokémon D/P is basically suffering from a competitive scene that is not that big or well organized. The game needs an environment in which skilled players play other skilled players, like a league or something. I don't know if this is really a plausible idea with Wi-Fi/current levels of interest, but I dunno, it'd be good. If good players play against other good players, then you can feel free to back up your "gimmicky" sets with examples of them actually working. Gimmicks are generally retarded, until you can pull them off. If you can consistently pull off a "gimmicky" set in a competitive environment, then you can post a thread about it. Until then, just forget it.
On the other hand, I am routinely beaten by better players than me who rush Pally+Morts (a decidedly gimmicky strategy), or play SA III Twelve (also extremely gimmicky). This is the part where my argument kind of falls off, because I have difficulty finding exactly what it is that makes this the case, so I just say "play the 3 games and see for yourself." I'm sure someone more logically inclined than I might be able to see exactly what it is, but I'm asking you to take my word for it. Anyways, I'm really getting off track here.
Right now, Pokémon D/P is basically suffering from a competitive scene that is not that big or well organized. The game needs an environment in which skilled players play other skilled players, like a league or something. I don't know if this is really a plausible idea with Wi-Fi/current levels of interest, but I dunno, it'd be good. If good players play against other good players, then you can feel free to back up your "gimmicky" sets with examples of them actually working. Gimmicks are generally retarded, until you can pull them off. If you can consistently pull off a "gimmicky" set in a competitive environment, then you can post a thread about it. Until then, just forget it.
I think problem what people are calling gimmicks.I will use Snorlax as a example
Standard set --Curse,crunch,earthquake,rest with sometime alternating bodyslam/return in place of a attack.This good solid set cover as much bases as snorlax can with out losing attack ability.
Gimmick Set--Curse,Rest,Body Slam,Sleep Talk.It is what i like call a "Last Man Standing Sets".It basically has big limitations but in the scenario it deadly.It works but you cut off the all round coverage of the standard set
What people are calling Gimmick sets--Yawn,Crunch,Earthquake,Block or Belly Drum,Yawn,Block,Return or Curse,Amnesia,return,crunch.On paper it looks like it has a chance,but in reality with actually has no chance.
Some people see gimmicks set as crazy set that is more of joke than competitive set and some people see a gimmick as set that works but standard set works better because cover ground.Gimmick set to me a is one trick pony.
Standard set --Curse,crunch,earthquake,rest with sometime alternating bodyslam/return in place of a attack.This good solid set cover as much bases as snorlax can with out losing attack ability.
Gimmick Set--Curse,Rest,Body Slam,Sleep Talk.It is what i like call a "Last Man Standing Sets".It basically has big limitations but in the scenario it deadly.It works but you cut off the all round coverage of the standard set
What people are calling Gimmick sets--Yawn,Crunch,Earthquake,Block or Belly Drum,Yawn,Block,Return or Curse,Amnesia,return,crunch.On paper it looks like it has a chance,but in reality with actually has no chance.
Some people see gimmicks set as crazy set that is more of joke than competitive set and some people see a gimmick as set that works but standard set works better because cover ground.Gimmick set to me a is one trick pony.
