k so nobody's replied or talked about the change to God Death Punishments, and the thread is falling down so to speak, so I'll give my opinion (reason I didn't before was I was waiting for someone else to give an opinion).
This change to Embargo being the God Death Punishment makes it so all playstyles are affected to at least similar degrees of severity. Before, stall (nonexistent though it may have been) and Balance, to a lesser degree, was hurt a tonne by Curse, while stuff like, say, Lugia HO (RIP Hoopa-U) wasn't awfully bothered as they were sac'ing everything anyways. Regular Offense was, while more affected than HO, still relatively worry free to a degree and could potentially win the match even without a god if they played it like HO almost, except against maybe stall. All playstyles pretty much despise Embargo equally, as stall LOVES lefties and general passive recovery (exception being Chansey), while neither Balance and especially offense likes losing their items, especially as Balance has a good number of bulky pivots and Life orb/Choice items are key to many offensive 'mons in the tier. Mega stones aren't affected, thankfully, so certain mons can function after Embargo. It also makes certain frailer Gods slightly more viable, like Deoxys-A, though Deo-A teams are probably ripped apart by Exca atm, not to mention Scarfed Krook absolutely destroys it (hence why MM2X is preferred on psychic teams).
A point of discussion I can think of to bring back discussion of the meta is how would one go about breaking typical Bulk Up Rest Talk Primal Groudon (which I'll refer to as CroDon due to the similarities it has to CroCune) teams, which are kind of prevalent in higher tier play and can be difficult to break without sufficient preparation or skill. During ladder month Primal Groudon (in general) received 9% usage in 1760 stats, placing it as the 16th most used 'mon and second most used God behind Yveltal, though it was a different story in 1630 stats, with it being much less used, at 6%. Thing is the team is so darned solid, if just on account of how much common shit CroDon can wall. Lugia teams may have a positive matchup on account of having Lugia, but Mamo can break it with Icicle Spear, Exca can flinchax it's way through with Rock Slide, and it can't do a lot to to Donner or Gastro. MegaMence has a decent shot, but it can be flinchaxed by Adamant Exca in sand if it's not running at +1 with least 232 EVs in speed and a Jolly nature, Mamoswine can revenge after minimal prior damage with Ice Shard, and can struggle vs Donner if it's already got a Bulk Up or two.
Note: For calcing these potential answers to CroDon I used Flamedood 's team from the team archive, but most CroDon teams I remember seeing are similar in format.
One set I theorised might have a positive matchup vs standard CroDon teams is a Bulky Mega Salamence set. Bulky Mega Salamence with 248 HP EVs, 72 defense EVs and an Impish nature lives +0 Adamant Excadrill's Rock Slide as a 3HKO if rocks aren't up, and takes basically nothing from Donner's Fire Punch, the most common STAB move CroDon runs. Furthermore, it can take an Adamant Mamo's Life Orb Ice Shard and OHKO at +1 with Return. It still has a pretty good matchup vs the rest of the meta because it's Mega Salamence, though it can lose to faster rain 'mons so it might be worth it to carry a better Rain/Kyogre check. The only downside is that it's pretty important to have rocks off your side and it's ideal to have rocks on their side, and that's difficult to pull off without Rapid Spin, which is not on a lot of Mence team viable 'mons. Do note rocks aren't necessary on their side, but it does help guarantee a lot of KOs. Plus it's a 'mon I loveabusing so yeah.
Another God that has a good chance vs Standard CroDon teams is Hidden Power Grass Palkia, who breaks Gastro, many team's only real defensive answer to it besides Donner, who's a shaky defensive check because it needs to run PB to break Palkia, which leaves CroDon walled by any and all Flying/Levitate 'mons. Admittedly, it's forced out by Exca, but that's it. It's why I paired my Palkia with a Defensive Almomola (how the fuck do you spell that lmfao), who kind of counters Exca. It's just standard Lustrous Orb Palkia from the Ubers Smogon analysis but with HP Grass as the last moveslot.
The problem with non-God 'mons taking it on primairly stems from the fact there REALLY are not a lot off common non-God 'mons that do well vs Primal Groudon and it's teammates. Roughly 50-75% of OU are beaten by Donner in some way (you know something's wrong when something absolutely hard counters fucking Keldeo of all things while still having significant offensive presence), if you include non CroDon sets like SD, Rock Polish, Mixed, stuff like that, and most of the rest are beaten by CroDon's common teammates. I've got a few potential answers to this team that aren't Gods, though, don't worry. One such answer is Hidden Power Grass Offensive Air Balloon Heatran. AB Tran completely walls standard CroDon while the balloon is intact and can wear it down with Earth Power. HP Grass lets it hurt Sp.Def Gastro significantly if it tries to switch in, 2hkoing after rocks. SubCoil Zygarde is another Pokemon that can deal with Donner, being able to faze it out and potentially set up and sweep their team, but can struggle with Icicle Spear Mamo. That's it, though, as Zygarde phases Hippo before Hippo can phase it back with DTail, and at worst does enough damage to their team to allow a teammate to come clean through. Double Dance Landorus Therian can also do a right number after an SD, at worst softening up the opposing team enough for another teammate to break through it's checks. It outboosts Bulk Up and does tonnes of damage to Donner with EQ and it outspeeds Exca in sand at +2, but boosted Fire Punch will sting and Mamo can revenge. SD Garchomp also does a number in a way similar to DD Lando-T, especially with a Life Orb.
I'm curious to hear how others are preparing for this more standard Primal Groudon team format. Those are all of the answers I can think of atm.
One final thing I can think of is discussing the possibility of a Follower Viability Ranking. While we have a God VR, there's not much info on what Follower is good with which God. The problem is it'd be a bit of an undertaking to create and maintain, as doing it by the follower's typing leads to scenarios where we have 'mons like Latias being pretty shit on Soul Dew Latios teams but great on Palkia and MegaMence teams. idk, I wouldn't mind hearing what people think about this.
This change to Embargo being the God Death Punishment makes it so all playstyles are affected to at least similar degrees of severity. Before, stall (nonexistent though it may have been) and Balance, to a lesser degree, was hurt a tonne by Curse, while stuff like, say, Lugia HO (RIP Hoopa-U) wasn't awfully bothered as they were sac'ing everything anyways. Regular Offense was, while more affected than HO, still relatively worry free to a degree and could potentially win the match even without a god if they played it like HO almost, except against maybe stall. All playstyles pretty much despise Embargo equally, as stall LOVES lefties and general passive recovery (exception being Chansey), while neither Balance and especially offense likes losing their items, especially as Balance has a good number of bulky pivots and Life orb/Choice items are key to many offensive 'mons in the tier. Mega stones aren't affected, thankfully, so certain mons can function after Embargo. It also makes certain frailer Gods slightly more viable, like Deoxys-A, though Deo-A teams are probably ripped apart by Exca atm, not to mention Scarfed Krook absolutely destroys it (hence why MM2X is preferred on psychic teams).
A point of discussion I can think of to bring back discussion of the meta is how would one go about breaking typical Bulk Up Rest Talk Primal Groudon (which I'll refer to as CroDon due to the similarities it has to CroCune) teams, which are kind of prevalent in higher tier play and can be difficult to break without sufficient preparation or skill. During ladder month Primal Groudon (in general) received 9% usage in 1760 stats, placing it as the 16th most used 'mon and second most used God behind Yveltal, though it was a different story in 1630 stats, with it being much less used, at 6%. Thing is the team is so darned solid, if just on account of how much common shit CroDon can wall. Lugia teams may have a positive matchup on account of having Lugia, but Mamo can break it with Icicle Spear, Exca can flinchax it's way through with Rock Slide, and it can't do a lot to to Donner or Gastro. MegaMence has a decent shot, but it can be flinchaxed by Adamant Exca in sand if it's not running at +1 with least 232 EVs in speed and a Jolly nature, Mamoswine can revenge after minimal prior damage with Ice Shard, and can struggle vs Donner if it's already got a Bulk Up or two.
Note: For calcing these potential answers to CroDon I used Flamedood 's team from the team archive, but most CroDon teams I remember seeing are similar in format.
One set I theorised might have a positive matchup vs standard CroDon teams is a Bulky Mega Salamence set. Bulky Mega Salamence with 248 HP EVs, 72 defense EVs and an Impish nature lives +0 Adamant Excadrill's Rock Slide as a 3HKO if rocks aren't up, and takes basically nothing from Donner's Fire Punch, the most common STAB move CroDon runs. Furthermore, it can take an Adamant Mamo's Life Orb Ice Shard and OHKO at +1 with Return. It still has a pretty good matchup vs the rest of the meta because it's Mega Salamence, though it can lose to faster rain 'mons so it might be worth it to carry a better Rain/Kyogre check. The only downside is that it's pretty important to have rocks off your side and it's ideal to have rocks on their side, and that's difficult to pull off without Rapid Spin, which is not on a lot of Mence team viable 'mons. Do note rocks aren't necessary on their side, but it does help guarantee a lot of KOs. Plus it's a 'mon I love
Salamence-Mega @ Salamencite
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 248 HP / 72 Def / 188 Spe
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Dragon Dance
- Return
- Earthquake/Substitute/Refresh
I'd personally use EQ to more reliably beat Exca and Donner, as well as actually sort of hitting Mega Maw and Dialga (if Shuca is gone, EQ can break through it), but Sub can be run to be far more difficult to revenge kill, as +1 Return already does tonnes to Exca, EQ's main target. Refresh can be run to be able to status sponge and switch in on some threats more reliably, like Ho-oh, as well as helping negate a potential Fire Punch burn from Donner. It's also worth noting that +0 Fire Punch from Donner and Banded Ho-oh's Sacred Fire won't break/hasn't got a good chance of breaking Mence's Sub. 188 Spe is still enough to outrun Adamant MegaPert in rain after a Dragon Dance, so that's nice.
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 248 HP / 72 Def / 188 Spe
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Dragon Dance
- Return
- Earthquake/Substitute/Refresh
I'd personally use EQ to more reliably beat Exca and Donner, as well as actually sort of hitting Mega Maw and Dialga (if Shuca is gone, EQ can break through it), but Sub can be run to be far more difficult to revenge kill, as +1 Return already does tonnes to Exca, EQ's main target. Refresh can be run to be able to status sponge and switch in on some threats more reliably, like Ho-oh, as well as helping negate a potential Fire Punch burn from Donner. It's also worth noting that +0 Fire Punch from Donner and Banded Ho-oh's Sacred Fire won't break/hasn't got a good chance of breaking Mence's Sub. 188 Spe is still enough to outrun Adamant MegaPert in rain after a Dragon Dance, so that's nice.
Another God that has a good chance vs Standard CroDon teams is Hidden Power Grass Palkia, who breaks Gastro, many team's only real defensive answer to it besides Donner, who's a shaky defensive check because it needs to run PB to break Palkia, which leaves CroDon walled by any and all Flying/Levitate 'mons. Admittedly, it's forced out by Exca, but that's it. It's why I paired my Palkia with a Defensive Almomola (how the fuck do you spell that lmfao), who kind of counters Exca. It's just standard Lustrous Orb Palkia from the Ubers Smogon analysis but with HP Grass as the last moveslot.
The problem with non-God 'mons taking it on primairly stems from the fact there REALLY are not a lot off common non-God 'mons that do well vs Primal Groudon and it's teammates. Roughly 50-75% of OU are beaten by Donner in some way (you know something's wrong when something absolutely hard counters fucking Keldeo of all things while still having significant offensive presence), if you include non CroDon sets like SD, Rock Polish, Mixed, stuff like that, and most of the rest are beaten by CroDon's common teammates. I've got a few potential answers to this team that aren't Gods, though, don't worry. One such answer is Hidden Power Grass Offensive Air Balloon Heatran. AB Tran completely walls standard CroDon while the balloon is intact and can wear it down with Earth Power. HP Grass lets it hurt Sp.Def Gastro significantly if it tries to switch in, 2hkoing after rocks. SubCoil Zygarde is another Pokemon that can deal with Donner, being able to faze it out and potentially set up and sweep their team, but can struggle with Icicle Spear Mamo. That's it, though, as Zygarde phases Hippo before Hippo can phase it back with DTail, and at worst does enough damage to their team to allow a teammate to come clean through. Double Dance Landorus Therian can also do a right number after an SD, at worst softening up the opposing team enough for another teammate to break through it's checks. It outboosts Bulk Up and does tonnes of damage to Donner with EQ and it outspeeds Exca in sand at +2, but boosted Fire Punch will sting and Mamo can revenge. SD Garchomp also does a number in a way similar to DD Lando-T, especially with a Life Orb.
I'm curious to hear how others are preparing for this more standard Primal Groudon team format. Those are all of the answers I can think of atm.
One final thing I can think of is discussing the possibility of a Follower Viability Ranking. While we have a God VR, there's not much info on what Follower is good with which God. The problem is it'd be a bit of an undertaking to create and maintain, as doing it by the follower's typing leads to scenarios where we have 'mons like Latias being pretty shit on Soul Dew Latios teams but great on Palkia and MegaMence teams. idk, I wouldn't mind hearing what people think about this.
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