Got Talent (Playable on ROM!) [Dead - no conditions in Gen 7]

going to post a team I've been using, I don't know if it's that good compared to teams that have already been posted here since it hasn't been all that consistent thus far (30/11 W/L on the ladder with an Elo of 1278 and a GXE of 70.8%, alright but not great), but I've certainly had a blast using it thus far and I hope that continues.

Heracross-Mega @ Heracronite
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pin Missile
- Vacuum Wave
- Focus Blast
- Swords Dance

Furfrou @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Cotton Guard
- Headbutt
- Wild Charge
- Snarl

Ninjask @ Focus Sash
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Protect
- Return
- Struggle Bug
- U-turn

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Iron Head
- Roost
- Defog
- Iron Defense

Scrafty @ Assault Vest
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Low Sweep
- Rock Tomb
- Hidden Power [Steel]

Dusclops @ Eviolite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Shadow Sneak
- Rock Tomb

I decided to build this team with Mega Heracross as one of the centerpieces as I've found it's rather underprepared for (learned this the hard way when nv destroyed me with it on ROM lol) and it has the ability to break through physical and special walls alike with its powerful STAB duo of Pin Missile and Focus Blast coming off a base 185 Attack, plus a decently powerful priority move in Vacuum Wave and Swords Dance to boost when opportunities are available. Here it's paired with another powerful wallbreaker in Assault Vest Scrafty (which I believe I added last out of my current team), which handles the Ghosts that wall Heracross quite nicely with its extremely powerful Knock Off, in addition to providing two forms of speed control in Low Sweep and Rock Tomb (the latter specifically to hit Mandibuzz as it handles this set decently otherwise) which allows Heracross to handle faster foes like Mega Metagross and Furfrou with more ease. Hidden Power Steel is used to lure in and hit Mega Diancie and Mega Altaria, two common switch-ins to Scrafty; I previously had Hidden Power Flying on this set, hence the Speed EVs which were intended to creep Chesnaught variants with no speed EVs. Furfrou doubles as a fast set-up sweeper and a check to most physical attackers after it's set up with Cotton Guard. Headbutt is Furfrou's main STAB, hitting non-resists extremely hard after a boost despite its low Base Power; Wild Charge offers coverage on Flying-types such as Mandibuzz, but I don't find myself using it much as Furfrou doesn't like the loss of longevity from Wild Charge's recoil; and Snarl is used to break physical walls such as Mega Aggron that might hope to wall Furfrou otherwise, in addition to hitting Ghosts such as Dusclops hard. Furfrou outspeeds nearly every relevant threat in the meta (excluding max-Speed Mega Metagross and dedicated Cute attackers such as Ninjask) with maximum Speed investment, so I've decided to run it at the cost of some bulk. Ninjask is my usual lead, as it's able to grab momentum quite efficiently with its very powerful U-turn; it's also able to clean late-game if the opponent's Steel- and Ghost-types are removed. This is a bit of a personal preference thing, but I'm running Struggle Bug on Ninjask over Bug Bite as I think the ability to hit physical walls on their weaker defense is more worthwhile than the extra Base Power that Bug Bite offers. Skarmory complements Ninjask quite nicely, as it's both a Defogger and a physical wall while posing an offensive threat with its decently hard-hitting Iron Head plus setup in Iron Defense and recovery in Roost. Last but not least, I have Dusclops to check many weaker attackers and Pokémon reliant on moves it resists, in addition to dishing out powerful hits with Eviolite-boosted Shadow Ball, decent priority in Shadow Sneak, and coverage in Hidden Power Fighting to hit most Darks and Rock Tomb for Mandibuzz switch-ins plus speed control for Dusclops's teammates.

Iron Defense Scolipede and max-Speed Mega Metagross: I fought both of these once each and they destroyed me because I had no idea how to deal with them. rip

probably more since there's still probably a lot of undiscovered threats in this meta and chances are my team won't be able to handle some of them well
 
So after losing a few games on it, something has come to my attention: Baton Passing speed boosts to Cute attacking Pokemon essentially breaks Baton Pass Clause without actually breaking it. Obviously this a sticky situation, but I felt it needed to be brought up so better minds than mine could address it.
 
So after losing a few games on it, something has come to my attention: Baton Passing speed boosts to Cute attacking Pokemon essentially breaks Baton Pass Clause without actually breaking it. Obviously this a sticky situation, but I felt it needed to be brought up so better minds than mine could address it.
That's a neat loophole, but I'm skeptical about its actual impact. This incarnation of Baton Clause rose to address the problem of passing stats to a Pokemon that otherwise couldn't boost them on their own, namely in scenario's such as SmashPass that allowed a rare boosting move to be transferred to Pokemon that would be broken if they could use it on their own.

Meanwhile, nearly all the best Cute abusers already have a means to boost Speed -- either through Agility, Speed Boost, Unburden + Salac Berry or any similar combination. What's more, many fast Pokemon are also frail, which makes passing to them all the more risky. It's not the same scenario as Baton Pass in standard, which typically passed to a acceptably bulky Pokemon with meh Speed and good offenses.
 
PDT's Huge VR Post
First off, I wanted to post a huge VR post after playing a good amount of Got Talent? games. I have a lot to talk about now so here goes.
Overview

  • upload_2016-6-5_20-37-7.png
    S --> A+
  • upload_2016-6-5_20-37-47.png
    B --> B+ or A-
  • upload_2016-6-5_20-38-28.png
    B+ --> A- OR A
  • upload_2016-6-5_20-38-13.png
    A- --> B+
In Depth
upload_2016-6-5_20-43-59.png

Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Synthesis / HP Fire
- Giga Drain
- Knock Off
- Amnesia

The reason I'm suggesting Venusaur be moved down from S to A+ is because of how it compares with the other S Rank Pokemon and how it has trouble fitting all of the wanted moves in to the move set. Frankly, it is not as overwhelming as Mega Altaria or Mega Aggron, and it is forced to either give up a crucial coverage move, reliable recovery, or a boosting move which allows it to either become more easily walled by the abundant amount of boosting Steel types (Skarmory, Mega Aggron, Scizor) or by the decent amount of Boosting Psychic Types (Uxie, Mew) by either giving up HP Fire or Knock Off. On the other hand, Venusaur could give up Synthesis, which makes it easily worn down and can't really function as a bulky booster, or it gives up Amnesia, which makes it a ton more passive and not able to make use of its coverage moves. Nonetheless, it is still a huge threat in the metagame, which is why it will still be A+, but it is not on par with other Pokemon to be an S Rank Pokemon.
upload_2016-6-5_20-56-59.png

Kecleon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Hidden Power [Fighting] / Drain Punch
- Knock Off / Sucker Punch

Kecleon is honestly a very effective wallbreaker in this meta, which led me to propose B --> B+ or A-. With Protean, it has an insane amount of STAB coverage, which makes it very strong revenge killer and wallbreaker. It has insane Special Defense, and can easily check the majority of Special Attackers in the tier. It has access to amazing coverage and is really hard to wall, with the exception of maybe Mandibuzz. It's unpredictable movepool coupled with nice priority makes it a really dangerous threat in the Got Talent? metagame. Like in the description of the A ranked Pokemon, it can sweep / K.O. a significant portion of the metagame.

upload_2016-6-5_21-31-14.png

Furfrou @ Leftovers / Chesto Berry
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Cotton Guard
- Wild Charge / Rest
- Headbutt
- Snarl / Rest

Furfrou is a great Cotton Guard user that can easily sweep teams that are unprepared, which has led me to propose the Furfrou be moved from B+ --> A- OR A. It can also run a Resto Chesto set that can potentially relieve it from status or a weakened state. It has nice coverage and can hit both defenses with Snarl + Return / Wild Charge. This makes it very hard to wall with a Cotton Guard up. Its 102 Base Speed gives it the ability to outrun most other bulky boosters in the tier. Fur Coat gives it outstanding natural defense, which makes it an immediate offensive threat.

upload_2016-6-5_21-52-8.png

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Coil
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Sludge Wave

Zygarde's niche in the tier is being able to take on other boosters and phaze them, and able to take on Mega Altaria offensively, but it only able to boost at +1 at a time, and can easily be hit repeatedly and worn down while boosting. Unlike Furfrou who also doesn't have any reliable recovery, it can't sweep teams after just one boost, which is why I think Zygarde should be moved from A- --> B+ because it has good positive traits, but it needs support to be effective. I don't think it can easily wall/sweep the significant parts of the metagame right now.

I can put calcs if you guys want me to support my claims but I really don't feel like it now, I'll do it if I have to.
 

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nv

The Lost Age
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Driver Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Rises
Furfrou B+ to A
Sceptile B+ to A-
Kecleon B to B+

Drops
Mega Venusaur S to A+
Quagsire B+ to D
Clefable B- to D

Cobalion B to B+/A-
Cobalion has served as a reliable check to threats such as Skarmory and Furfrou as it can outspeed and Taunt them, forcing them to use pitiful attacks against it thanks to its own base 129 Defense stat. Cobalion also have pretty powerful coverage in both its STAB moves, meaning it can afford to run Iron Defense to boost up alongside these threats and win 1v1. While this seems like it should automatically rise, no questions asked, it still suffers from powerful special attacks and it's a Steel-type that doesn't check Mega Diancie, forcing a team to either run dual Steel-types to check Mega Diancie or apply offensive pressure to keep it from Mega Evolving in the first place.

Spiritomb B to B+/A-
Spiritomb is a really good Assault Vest user as it not only has amazing priority, but it has surprise value with the fact that it can have a combination of Sucker Punch, Pursuit, Rock Tomb, Shadow Ball, Shadow Sneak, and Hidden Power [Fire] / [Fighting]. The other cool thing about Spiritomb is it has decent all around bulk meaning that it can not only take some weker physical hits, but it can also live a critical hit Moonblast from Mega Diancie at full health. It is a nice check to the fast threats in the metagame, such as Ninjask and Sceptile, that may try to hide behind a Substitute thanks to Infiltrator, bypassing said Substitute. Sadly, it still has trouble with powerful physical threats such as Furfrou since it can't do much to them without specific coverage moves i.e. Hidden Power [Fighting], leaving it with a slight case of 4MSS.

Donphan C+ to B-
I have found out recently that Donphan is a solid Rapid Spin user with a powerful EdgeQuake combo, allowing it to run SR to help support the team as well. Sturdy also means it can live a powerful hit and potentially fire back with any of its moves. Sadly it is still fairly slow and has no reliable recovery making it no such a great option for more balanced teams.

Linoone Unranked to B-
I can't believe we missed this the first time around, but seeing as we did, I thought it was my place to nominate it. Quick Feet Linoone is similar to a Guts Throh in standard play, but with a Normal typing and a lot more Speed thanks to GT mechanics. Linoone also has a somewhat colorful movepool allowing it to run Facade, Play Rough, and Grass Knot to bop quite a few key threats in the metagame. Sadly, this coverage leaves it walled by Steel-types but there isn't anything it can use besides the weak af Mud-Slap hence the initial B- ranking.


And with the first VR shift and my own nominations done, it is now time for...

The Main Event

Altaria-Mega @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD or 252 Def / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Cotton Guard
- Double-Edge / Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Roost / Heal Bell / Incinerate

It is time to finally bring up something that has been bothering the council as well as the playerbase: Mega Altaria. Now while this isn't going to happen swiftly, I want to take some time, roughly one to two days, to hear everyone's thoughts about why this monster of a Pokemon should or should not be banned. While I am obviously on one side of the fence, I am open to hearing the other side's opinions. I feel personally that Mega Altaria has everything going for it with great neutral coverage in STAB Pixilate-boosted Double-Edge / Body Slam and Earthquake. While it can be walled by mainly Steel-types it also has access to Incinerate which, while only 60 BP, hits on the opponent's normally weaker defensive stat and is still pretty powerful thanks to a base 110 Defense stat and its access to the most powerful boosting move in the metagame, Cotton Guard. While Incinerate isn't as common as Roost or Heal Bell, it is certainly worthy of consideration whenever using Mega Altaria. While burns now cripple it thanks to TI, sadly Unaware is acting right by not ignoring the offensive boosts that Tough, Clever, and Cute moves get, leaving Quagsire and Clefable in the dust and also the main reason they were dropped to D since their main niche is null and void. While Mega Altaria is outrun by quite a few key Pokemon such as Mega Diancie and Cobalion, there is no doubt that this thing is very powerful on the verge of being broken in Got Talent?.
So there you have it. The first VR shift, a few nominations of my own, as well as the start of discussing a ban on Mega Altaria. A decision will most likely be reached on this Pokemon by Wednesday at the latest. Hopefully I see some good discussion in the thread before then :)
 
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xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
Why is Mega Altaria being considered for banning but NOT mega aggron? Mega Altaria has special attacking checks who are powerful enough to break it, especially from a revenge killing perspective, but Mega Aggron really does not. Special Fire-type, Ground-type, etc. attackers are hard to come by, and tailoring sets like specs/scarf Victini and running them just to beat Maggron is really just stupid.

I understand that Malt has recovery and can boost faster, but Maggron requires a special-sided powerful attacker to break through, and those aren't all that common nowadays compared to Malt having a number of checks that can handle it 1-on-1.
 
I've been playing a ton of GT, and I think the VR is really pretty innacurate. here's to hoping we can fix that:
Gallade C->B/B+. Gallade hits like a truck with an assualt vest, and has a great movepool and decent speed to boot. While it does want a better fighting move, it has all of 2 counters ranked a- or higher, and can even pick off weakened ninjask with priority.
Metagross A-->A+ or S. This thing is an insanely powerful mega, boasting great coverage, the ability to beat just about anything not named Scizor, Megabro, or Maggron 1v1, and an incredibly speed tier to pick off most of the currently popular slow pokemon before they can even move.
Ninjask A->A+. This being in A is frankly inexcusable, as it defines the entire tier. Even Maggron can only switch in once before two scarfed uproars KO it, and anything less bulky than that is flat out invalidated. Even if you have one of the few mons like dusclops that can wall it, however, it can just uturn out and deal a heavy number on you.
Mega Altaria S->A+. Altaria is far less reliable or useful than people have been claiming, and while it's a potent threat after setup it sets up on basically nothing. While mixed prowess does help it combat walls somewhat, this also means that anything it wants to stall out with cotton guard while it roosts can ignore itt's boosts. Additionally, steel is perhaps the greatest type in got talent, which isn't doing it any favors.
Darmanitan unranked->B-. 145 attack is still really good, and it's newfound fighting/fire coverage is even better- especially considering its high bp and physical/special nature. While it does lack a way to touch slowbro, it can still pivot out with u-turn to a counter.

Most of these seem pretty good, but donphan really shouldn't go up. It's consistantly mediocre, and has barely any niche outside of spinning. While that is useful, I'm not sure how much better this makes it that, say, skarmory, who has a vastly superior typing and stat spread.


Opinions on Malt being banned:
You may have geussed this from the nomination, but it's my opinion that Mega Altaria isn't anywhere near broken. While it does have an attractive typing, good stats, and a great boosting move, there is both a huge opportunity cost and a limited result gained from using it. Not only does it prevent you from using better megas like Aggron and Metagross, it also can't make up for it's lack of field presence with speed. Anything not limited to physical attacks can break it extremely easily, it suffers from rather severe 4mss, and doesn't provide meaningful team support or synergy. Basically, in some areas it is horrifically broken, but its often crippling flaws more than make up for this.
 
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xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
Ninjask has more than 1809 Speed; it is unaffected by Trick Room. This is an in-game bug.
fuck nintendo now ninjask beats my team. >emulating nintendo bugs

Beauty mons are actually still really good in this tier. I just started using a specs Volcanion set to take on maggron and it's doing wonders; I'm going to work on finding something that beats both that and a few other defense boosters such as slow furfrou (dumb set), mega altaria, and mega slowbro.
 
Loving this format. There's nothing more satisfying that sweeping with Cottonee. I've been using this set


Cottonee @ Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Cotton Guard
- Encore
- Seed Bomb
- Substitute

Because there's so much set up in this format Prankster Encore is a great move to trap an enemy into Cotton Guard/Iron Defence. Then you can use Priority Substitute and Cotton Guard to get up to +6 and sweep. Of course it does have it's problems. So many Pokemon are running max defence and the set cannot touch Bulletproof Chesnaught. But it's a good way of dealing with all the Ground and Rock types running about and is useful for surprising your opponent


 
Loving this format. There's nothing more satisfying that sweeping with Cottonee. I've been using this set


Cottonee @ Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Cotton Guard
- Encore
- Seed Bomb
- Substitute

Because there's so much set up in this format Prankster Encore is a great move to trap an enemy into Cotton Guard/Iron Defence. Then you can use Priority Substitute and Cotton Guard to get up to +6 and sweep. Of course it does have it's problems. So many Pokemon are running max defence and the set cannot touch Bulletproof Chesnaught. But it's a good way of dealing with all the Ground and Rock types running about and is useful for surprising your opponent
Cottonee does have uniqueness on its side, yes, given that it's the only user of Prankster Cotton Guard + Encore other than its evolution... but honestly, I don't see it being useful at all as a Cotton Guard sweeper. For one thing, it's highly outclassed as a Cotton Guard sweeper by the likes of Mega Altaria and Furfrou which boast superior power and coverage, and unlike those two Cottonee is walled by most bulky Steels even after it's set up because 60 base Defense + Eviolite simply isn't that high, all things considered:

+6 252+ Def Eviolite Cottonee Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 74-87 (22.1 - 26%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Def Eviolite Cottonee Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aggron: 101-119 (29.3 - 34.5%) -- 6.5% chance to 3HKO (admittedly, this is higher than I expected, but M-Aggron still forces Cottonee out with its Heavy Slams)

You can Encore an Iron Defense like you've alluded to in this post, but Cottonee still won't be able to touch Defense boosters because its STAB is highly resisted in this meta and even if it boosts alongside its foe it's still going to end up back where it started with regards to damage output, which is nowhere. Even then the foe can just switch out, which stops this strategy right in its tracks. Cottonee could see some use for the purpose of Encore support, sure, but it's pointlessly outclassed as a Cotton Guard sweeper when so many things can do the job better.

e: cottonee sounds cool as a subseeder though
 
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Cottonee does have uniqueness on its side, yes, given that it's the only user of Prankster Cotton Guard + Encore other than its evolution... but honestly, I don't see it being useful at all as a Cotton Guard sweeper. For one thing, it's highly outclassed as a Cotton Guard sweeper by the likes of Mega Altaria and Furfrou which boast superior power and coverage, and unlike those two Cottonee is walled by most bulky Steels even after it's set up because 60 base Defense + Eviolite simply isn't that high, all things considered:

+6 252+ Def Eviolite Cottonee Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 74-87 (22.1 - 26%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Def Eviolite Cottonee Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aggron: 101-119 (29.3 - 34.5%) -- 6.5% chance to 3HKO (admittedly, this is higher than I expected, but M-Aggron still forces Cottonee out with its Heavy Slams)

You can Encore an Iron Defense like you've alluded to in this post, but Cottonee still won't be able to touch Defense boosters because its STAB is highly resisted in this meta and even if it boosts alongside its foe it's still going to end up back where it started with regards to damage output, which is nowhere. Even then the foe can just switch out, which stops this strategy right in its tracks. Cottonee could see some use for the purpose of Encore support, sure, but it's pointlessly outclassed as a Cotton Guard sweeper when so many things can do the job better.

e: cottonee sounds cool as a subseeder though
Yeah it's pretty much completely walled by Skarmory. But I don't think it's too bad against Maggron. If it's behind a sub then it can get at least three seed bombs onto Aggron which, while not a guaranteed KO, is enough to put a large dent in Maggron. It's not going to break the tier or be particularly common. But I think it's uniqueness is enough to make it somewhat viable, especially with support to deal with specific steel types.

EDIT: I think Cottonee's main advantage over other Cotton Guarders is that it's much easier for it to get to +6 than it is for Furfrou and Altaira especially as a lead. Furfrou and Altaria can only really get to +3 before a counter is switched in against them. Cottonee however through Prankster and being an unexpected sweeper can easily get to +6 before taking damage and if used as a lead can get a substitute on top of that.
 
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I've been playing a ton of GT, and I think the VR is really pretty innacurate. here's to hoping we can fix that:
Gallade C->B/B+. Gallade hits like a truck with an assualt vest, and has a great movepool and decent speed to boot. While it does want a better fighting move, it has all of 2 counters ranked a- or higher, and can even pick off weakened ninjask with priority.
Metagross A-->A+ or S. This thing is an insanely powerful mega, boasting great coverage, the ability to beat just about anything not named Scizor, Megabro, or Maggron 1v1, and an incredibly speed tier to pick off most of the currently popular slow pokemon before they can even move.
Ninjask A->A+. This being in A is frankly inexcusable, as it defines the entire tier. Even Maggron can only switch in once before two scarfed uproars KO it, and anything less bulky than that is flat out invalidated. Even if you have one of the few mons like dusclops that can wall it, however, it can just uturn out and deal a heavy number on you.
Mega Altaria S->A+. Altaria is far less reliable or useful than people have been claiming, and while it's a potent threat after setup it sets up on basically nothing. While mixed prowess does help it combat walls somewhat, this also means that anything it wants to stall out with cotton guard while it roosts can ignore itt's boosts. Additionally, steel is perhaps the greatest type in got talent, which isn't doing it any favors.
Darmanitan unranked->B-. 145 attack is still really good, and it's newfound fighting/fire coverage is even better- especially considering its high bp and physical/special nature. While it does lack a way to touch slowbro, it can still pivot out with u-turn to a counter.

Most of these seem pretty good, but donphan really shouldn't go up. It's consistantly mediocre, and has barely any niche outside of spinning. WHile that is useful, I'm not sure how much better this makes it that, say, skarmory, who has a vasteley superior typing and stat spread.


Opinions on Malt being banned:
You may have geussed this from the nomination, but it's my opinion that Mega Altaria isn't anywhere near broken. While it does have an attractive typing, good stats, and a great boosting move, there is both a huge opportunity cost and a limited result gained from using it. Not only does it prevent you from using better megas like Aggron and Metagross, it also can't make up for it's lack of field presence with speed. Anything not limited to physical attacks can break it extremely easily, it suffers from rather severe 4mss, and doesn't provide meaningful team support or synergy. Basically, in some areas it is horrifically broken, but its often crippling flaws more than make up for this.
I honestly disagree with some of these nominations. Altaria from S --> A+ is honestly kind of dumb. It boosts faster than any steel in the game, and easily tanks super effective attacks from bulky steels, then KOs most of them with Earthquake / Incinerate. Because it can boost faster, it can hit Steels who are boosting with Iron Defense at +4 Defense while Altaria is already at +6. That is hitting them with a +2 advantage super effective move which easily deals with the steel types. Even if the Steel types start attacking outright, a Super Effective attack against a +3 Altaria does literally nothing.

Calcs:
  • 252+ Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. +3 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 182-216 (51.5 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • Calcs with Mega Steelix are the same as above. It's not even a 2hko if Altaria keeps boosting, and a +3 Incinerate will have a good chance to OHKO both Pokemon
The only Bulky Steel that has a chance of dealing with Altaria is when its already boosted when Altaria comes in, or it's something like Mega Metagross running Sludge Wave or Mega Scizor that can catch it before it boosts.

Ninjask is fine in A rank honestly, because it is obliterated by any priority and can't setup on boosting Bulky Steel types without giving up either Return / Substitute / Protect to run Special coverage. Also it can't even beat an Unburden Sceptile after the Unburden activates without hoping for 2 Protects, and is OHKO'd.

Metagross going to A+ is probably OK, but to S rank is a little dumb. The threats you mentioned that it can't setup on are incredibly common in the tier, which definitely makes it not eligible for S Rank. The Mega Altaria I use creeps Metagross before it evolves, so if you haven't gotten a chance to Mega Evolve or Mega Altaria is already boosted, it can just OHKO it with an Earthquake. This means you can't give your opponent any opportunities to setup or make risky and aggressive doubles in order to prevent getting swept.

The rest of this seems pretty good, so credit for those other good posts /nominations. I agree with your comments about nv's nominations and your other two nominations.
 

Funbot28

Porque yo soy tu veneno
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Mega Altaria absolutely warps the Got Talent? metagame around it. Its stats, amazing defensive typing, and support movepool limits the amount of pokemon that are actually able to check/counter it. Cotton Guard's excessive immediate boost makes it extremely difficult for potential Steel-type checks (like Mega Aggron, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn) to deal with it as they fear switching in on +3 Earthquakes that will likely 2HKO or 3HKO them. Roost also makes it outlast many of its checks and Body Slam paralysis makes it very hard to stall it out due to fearing the paralysis chance. All these factors is what makes it overwhelming for the metagame, and I would like to see it banned.

P.S Also agree with dropping Mega Venasaur and rising Mega Metagross to A+.
 
I honestly disagree with some of these nominations. Altaria from S --> A+ is honestly kind of dumb. It boosts faster than any steel in the game, and easily tanks super effective attacks from bulky steels, then KOs most of them with Earthquake / Incinerate. Because it can boost faster, it can hit Steels who are boosting with Iron Defense at +4 Defense while Altaria is already at +6. That is hitting them with a +2 advantage super effective move which easily deals with the steel types. Even if the Steel types start attacking outright, a Super Effective attack against a +3 Altaria does literally nothing.
Not only is that not how boosting works, it's also a untrue even without that. Lairon, for instance, gets the 2hko at +4 vs max hp max def + altaria, while still avoiding the earthquake ok- and it can invest to outspeed and still live, while if altaria creeps lairon it dies.
Calcs:
  • 252+ Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. +3 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 182-216 (51.5 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • Calcs with Mega Steelix are the same as above. It's not even a 2hko if Altaria keeps boosting, and a +3 Incinerate will have a good chance to OHKO both Pokemon
Maggron also doesn't come close to being ohko'd, and in fact only has a 25% chance while uninvested vs a +3 altaria after stealth rocks.
The only Bulky Steel that has a chance of dealing with Altaria is when its already boosted when Altaria comes in, or it's something like Mega Metagross running Sludge Wave or Mega Scizor that can catch it before it boosts.
Outside of lairon, which I brought up earlier, skarmory beats all sets (even incinerate) and can phase out any/taunt any maltaria foolish enough to boost. If Malt doesn't run incinerate, scizor, skarm and ferrothorn hardball it; if it does heatran just wins and it has 50-50s with lairon (other fire types beat it as well like volcanion).
Ninjask is fine in A rank honestly, because it is obliterated by any priority and can't setup on boosting Bulky Steel types without giving up either Return / Substitute / Protect to run Special coverage. Also it can't even beat an Unburden Sceptile after the Unburden activates without hoping for 2 Protects, and is OHKO'd.

Metagross going to A+ is probably OK, but to S rank is a little dumb. The threats you mentioned that it can't setup on are incredibly common in the tier, which definitely makes it not eligible for S Rank. The Mega Altaria I use creeps Metagross before it evolves, so if you haven't gotten a chance to Mega Evolve or Mega Altaria is already boosted, it can just OHKO it with an Earthquake. This means you can't give your opponent any opportunities to setup or make risky and aggressive doubles in order to prevent getting swept.

The rest of this seems pretty good, so credit for those other good posts /nominations. I agree with your comments about nv's nominations and your other two nominations.
Can this please stop? Every time I see protect/sub ninjas I die a little inside, because it's just that terrible. Don't run this, people.

Just because it can't set up on them doesn't mean that it can't be S. They notably only check, not counter, so if it comes in almost literally any other Pokemon it either gets a kill on that mon or sweeps. Furthermore, those are only three Pokemon, so if your goal is to stop it from setting up and sweeping you have to not ok anything with your other Pokemon or you just lose. Furthermore, those were it's checks, not counters- Mega Scizor is the only* counter it has bar rolls vs quag, and even that can be defeated after rocks if you decide you want hammer arm. With iron head+iron defense+sludge bomb+EQ it's basically unwallable, and you can just mix and match in hammer arm, grass knot, or bullet punch to defeat anything resembling an answer. I admit that it isn't as good as maggron, but but it deserves to be ranked at least as highly as Mega Altaria.
Additionally, metagross is base 70 and maltaria is base 80. If you speed creep it, you lose 176 hp Eva and your positive defensive nature. If it works it works, but I really can't advise it.


*note that bronzong technically beats this, and likely so do one or two other niche mons, but you should never use them and thus they are not included.
Mega Altaria absolutely warps the Got Talent? metagame around it. Its stats, amazing defensive typing, and support movepool limits the amount of pokemon that are actually able to check/counter it. Cotton Guard's excessive immediate boost makes it extremely difficult for potential Steel-type checks (like Mega Aggron, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn) to deal with it as they fear switching in on +3 Earthquakes that will likely 2HKO or 3HKO them. Roost also makes it outlast many of its checks and Body Slam paralysis makes it very hard to stall it out due to fearing the paralysis chance. All these factors is what makes it overwhelming for the metagame, and I would like to see it banned.

P.S Also agree with dropping Mega Venasaur and rising Mega Metagross to A+.
How is most of this relevant? I'll definitely buy cotton guard, but Maltaria has a terrible type in GT, and you really can't use any of its support movepool bar roost due to its extremely severe 4mss. (Side note- if roost lets it outlast checks, they aren't checks). It's largely mediocre stats really don't help here, as it's easily revengable and is extremely weak before boosts.

To clarify for this rank, I'm not saying something has to be as op as hoops-u to be worth banning, simply that hoopa-u is an example of - recent, disputed ban and that if it's less broken than hoopa was it has a chance at being balanced.

1. Counters. Advantage: Hoopa-U
Hoopa-U had exactly one viable counter, and that was a strictly one time thing involving permanganate diancie and could be defeated by changing up its moves.
Altaria has several, including mega metagross, golbat, the slows, Amoongus, potentially quag if defense boosting is patched, wheezing, venusaur, cofragrigus, dues lops, and depending on the set some combination of ferro, skarm, Scizor, heatran, volcanion, and Maudino.

2. Checks: Advantage: Maltaria
Hoopa was checked by nearly all of physical offense (and some special) when running specs/band, and by most of stall when rocking scarf.
Maltaria has maybe 30 checks to all of its sets combined, and fewer for each individual one.

3. Matchup. Advantage: Hoopa-U
Hoopa completely destroyed stall, and usually averaged 1 kill vs offense. Realistically speaking, it was never dead weight.
Maltaria has counters, and thus only truly shines against play styles that do not carry them, which while a stunning testament of its power is nearly all of them.

4. Moves. Advantage: Hoopa-U
Hoopa only needed 4 moves to completely fulfill it's job, and only required 2 more to fulfill easily half a dozen other rolls as well. It had a nice boosting move in nasty plot as well.
While cotton guard is better than nasty plot and roost is great, maltaria's movepool is worse in every another way.

5. Splashability. Advantage: Hoopa-U
Hoopa could be thrown on nearly every team, almost completely eliminating stall and pairing well with top metagames picks. It also rarely failed to serve a purpose.
Maltaria takes up a valuable mega slot, and has a somewhat disadvantages typing and stat spread that requires support.

6. Speed. Advantage:tie
Oras is a fast paced metagame, and speed is a huge factor. As it happens, however, they both have 80 speed

To;dr: Maltaria is significantly worse than previous ban Hoopa-u, and lacks many other defining ban worthy traits. It isn't without its major boons, however.
 
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Quantum Tesseract , I'm honestly really confused about some of the points you made.
How is Lairon going to creep a Mega Altaria, when it would be literally forced to run 252 Speed EVs and a Jolly nature to even tie with Mega Altaria. Also your point about that's not how boosting works doesn't make sense either even with the example you posted. Let's say that we did want to tie with Mega Altaria, so we did 252+ Speed EVs. That would force you to give up all HP investment and basically lose any sort of Special Bulk you were beginning to have, just to TIE with Mega Altaria. All we would have to do is run 4 Speed EVs. Yes Altaria doesn't OHKO and is most likely getting OHKO'd back(assuming they are boosting side by side), but it deals significant damage and if it is already at +6 then it doesn't even beat it. If Lairon is already in and boosted, why would Mega Altaria even come into play .-.

Another point you made was that Skarmory beats it. This is definitely not true, because all it does is phase it, and has to take a (presumedly) boosted Super Effective hit which would easily put it at sturdy, which it would then phaze Mega Altaria and then just be straight up killed because its at 1 HP. The other points you made is that other Steel types hardwall any non-Incinerate Altaria (which everyone should be running imo b/c of the Special Defense that it hits) which is definitely true, but that doesn't mean Altaria isn't boosted and can dent it with a +3 Earthquake before it does so. And also once Mega Altaria is boosted, what can Ferrothorn even do to it? Most sets don't have the room to run a boosting move, which makes it setup bait.

Also for Ninjask, if you still have a check such as Skarmory, how does it get a kill if you can just switch out. Saying it gets a kill every time it comes in is pushing it a little bit.

For Mega Metagross vs. Mega Altaria, you can't assumed that Metagross will already be boosted / mega evolved. To be fair, I can't assume any circumstances where Mega Altaria would win, so really it just depends on the situation. You can't really say definitively either way. Also how does Skarmory / Mega - Aggron not check Metagross? It definitely does have some common checks. You can't say "nothing checks it" when some of the most common Pokemon do. EQ does literally 25% maybe unboosted to Aggron. Even if it comes in on a boost, then it can boost the turn it is hit with an earthquake, and hit back a lot harder.
  • 252+ Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 76-91 (22 - 26.4%) -- 15.6% chance to 4HKO(double for boosted damage)
  • +2 252+ Atk Mega Aggron Earthquake vs. +2 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Metagross: 222-262 (60.9 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
EDIT: You're right about the boosting, just had a mind blank. My bad on that one n_n.
 
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I might be a rare opinion here, but I'm in support of a M-Alt ban. While some argue that it's taken down easily or can't set up well, while I disagree with that, there still remains one fact. M-Alt is just very centralizing. It hits hard, and every solid Got Talent team needs to pack one or two checks to this monster, lest they end up swept.

+3 in one turn is pretty insane, and is demonstrated pretty well in Manaphy, but when the +3 also adds to your defense, it's a lot more difficult to fight.
 
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I've got a odd Suicune set I use in this meta, and it works surprisingly often.

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Scald
- Roar
- Psych Up
- Iron Head
I run scald to have the benefit of the power from the defense there, as I use suicune as a defensive wall/roar user.
Now the unconventional moves I use are psych up and iron head. I see so many boosts in this meta that I wondered if Psych Up might be fun to use. It turns out I was right. And Iron Head I run so I can bonk sp def tanks like tyranitar after I burn them with scald. I realize the rest/sleep talk variant is more common, but I find that with the threat of MAltaria around, Suicune can be hard to use at times in that capacity.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gottalent-383160048
 
I've got a odd Suicune set I use in this meta, and it works surprisingly often.

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Scald
- Roar
- Psych Up
- Iron Head
I run scald to have the benefit of the power from the defense there, as I use suicune as a defensive wall/roar user.
Now the unconventional moves I use are psych up and iron head. I see so many boosts in this meta that I wondered if Psych Up might be fun to use. It turns out I was right. And Iron Head I run so I can bonk sp def tanks like tyranitar after I burn them with scald. I realize the rest/sleep talk variant is more common, but I find that with the threat of MAltaria around, Suicune can be hard to use at times in that capacity.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gottalent-383160048
I must say, I loved the use of that set. I peeked at the replay and it seemed pretty effective with the right prediction. I had been pondering the use of a Psych Up Pokemon because of how much boosting goes on in the tier. It seems that you figured out thought. Nice Job on that bro :)
 
Quantum Tesseract , I'm honestly really confused about some of the points you made.
How is Lairon going to creep a Mega Altaria, when it would be literally forced to run 252 Speed EVs and a Jolly nature to even tie with Mega Altaria. Also your point about that's not how boosting works doesn't make sense either even with the example you posted. Let's say that we did want to tie with Mega Altaria, so we did 252+ Speed EVs. That would force you to give up all HP investment and basically lose any sort of Special Bulk you were beginning to have, just to TIE with Mega Altaria. All we would have to do is run 4 Speed EVs. Yes Altaria doesn't OHKO and is most likely getting OHKO'd back(assuming they are boosting side by side), but it deals significant damage and if it is already at +6 then it doesn't even beat it. If Lairon is already in and boosted, why would Mega Altaria even come into play .-.
Yeah, the speed tie thing was more me trying to say that lairon doesn't even need it's hp EVs to take on Maltaria, while Maltaria needs its hp to stand a shot. It probably can afford to use 4, though.
As for boosting, I was referring to you saying +6 vs +4 is the equivalent of +2 when it's actually a smaller boost than +1.
Another point you made was that Skarmory beats it. This is definitely not true, because all it does is phase it, and has to take a (presumedly) boosted Super Effective hit which would easily put it at sturdy, which it would then phaze Mega Altaria and then just be straight up killed because its at 1 HP. The other points you made is that other Steel types hardwall any non-Incinerate Altaria (which everyone should be running imo b/c of the Special Defense that it hits) which is definitely true, but that doesn't mean Altaria isn't boosted and can dent it with a +3 Earthquake before it does so. And also once Mega Altaria is boosted, what can Ferrothorn even do to it? Most sets don't have the room to run a boosting move, which makes it setup bait.
It gets leech seed, so it can sorta recover health while it curses, and retaliate with decently strong tough attacks+make any other Pokemon take it in better. If it's a hazard ferro, yeah that's going to lose, but utility mons aren't generally used to counter things.
Also for Ninjask, if you still have a check such as Skarmory, how does it get a kill if you can just switch out. Saying it gets a kill every time it comes in is pushing it a little bit.

For Mega Metagross vs. Mega Altaria, you can't assumed that Metagross will already be boosted / mega evolved. To be fair, I can't assume any circumstances where Mega Altaria would win, so really it just depends on the situation. You can't really say definitively either way. Also how does Skarmory / Mega - Aggron not check Metagross? It definitely does have some common checks. You can't say "nothing checks it" when some of the most common Pokemon do. EQ does literally 25% maybe unboosted to Aggron. Even if it comes in on a boost, then it can boost the turn it is hit with an earthquake, and hit back a lot harder.
  • 252+ Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 76-91 (22 - 26.4%) -- 15.6% chance to 4HKO(double for boosted damage)
  • +2 252+ Atk Mega Aggron Earthquake vs. +2 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Metagross: 222-262 (60.9 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If you'll look, I didn't actually say that, but upturn+insanely powerful attacks means it either putting a huge chunk in something or putting a medium chunk in something and gaining momentum.

Skarmory doesn't check because of hammer arm and/or boosting, but I probably should have listed it under things that coverage beats rather than things main set beats because if they carry counter they can win (iron defense probably can as well, but skarm needs its 4 moves).

Vs mega altaria, it can actually come in once on any attack and force if out (and always loses 1v1 vein with cries) so I'm not sure how I can't say either way. Metagross also can 1v1 a +3 Maltaria (or +6 if it's an EQ Maltaria). Worst of all, if you get Enough speed investment to outspeed pre-mega metagross you have a chance of getting ohko'd after stealth rook

Not only did I not say that nothing checked it, I also specifically listed maggron as one of them. It just isn't a counter, as if it comes in while metagross boosts it loses, and can't come in more than twice except on sludge bomb, so even knowing it'll pick iron head isn't enough.
 
I've been using the following Manaphy set lately, and it has honestly won me games by itself against slower teams.

Manaphy Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 Hp / 252 Def / 4 Sp.Def
Nature: Impish
-Scald
-Raindance
-Rest
-Acid armour

Very good against the myriad defensive steel types in the tier. 1v1s Mega-Altaria due to hitting on the special side and get burns eventually.
 
I also have an opinion on a ban for MAltaria. It is my belief that yes it can be countered, especially if one is adept at prediction. However, unless one has a good counter to MAlt on their team, they are likely to be swept away. A good fully boosted earthquake from Malt can take out a ferrothorn in one hit. And that's just one example, as there are many others. Yes Maggron and MVenusaur can be good counters to it but they find themselves being ohko'd quite easily most of the time. I would venture to say that Malt is a defining pokemon for this meta, and while I know this might be very unpopular, I'm merely suggesting it: Would a ban on cotton guard be feasible? My argument for that is that there is nothing else like it in GT, and it gives a distinct advantage to a couple of mons, (mostly furfrou and Malt), to the point where they then define the meta. My argument against? There are other users of cotton guard that do not dominate even though they have cotton guard. So it might stand to reason that it's the circumstances in which cotton guard is used that's the problem, not the move itself. I don't know, merely trying to start a discussion. Oh, and in case I wasn't clear, I am for a ban on MAlt, even though if we banned it's usage of cotton guard, all of a sudden it'd drop like a rock in the tier.
I am not ever for banning Ninjask, and I am even against it being put into S rank. It is everywhere, this is true, but I've had many battles against ninjask and I typically laugh when it's being used. Suicune laughs at it being put out, it just uses roar. Ferrothorn, Skarmory also laugh at it and just knock it aside like so much riffraff.
 

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