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Can someone explain why Gyarados is (or at least was in the previous thread) ranked higher than Quagsire, Slowbro, Tentacruel, and Lapras? Despite having high physical attack, Gyarados usually does less damage with return than all 4 of these other Pokemon do with their STAB attacks. I get that the level 30 appearance makes Gyarados great against the next 3 gyms, but how does it remain useful in the late game?
I can't speak for where it's going to land this list (I'd say B-tier is good), but one thing it has over most Water-types, outside of the high join level, is that you can just give it four HMs (Water HMs and Strength) without impacting its perfomance significantly (the only loss here is you cannot run Thunder and Blizzard on it, but Gyarados has a fairly low Special Attack, so I doubt it'd make good use of those anyways). With that said, it doesn't destroy the whole game, but from memory, it's never a deadweight anywhere, which is why B-tier seems good to me (I'd have to check logs for more information)
Quagsire has somewhat underwhelming stats despite the decent typing and falls off more heavily later on in the game, from memories. Wooper is also rather eh before evolving into Quagsire, though at least it's usable on the field to make this a non-issue. This is me speaking from memory, though, I'd have to check my logs to see how it performed, but C-tier sounds just right for it (I wouldn't say it's better than the Nidos, which are pmuch agreed to be C-tier iirc)
Slowbro is very slow and thus easy to wear down, especially with the amount of hax that is present in the games. You also have to backtrack for it, as using Slowpoke is pure insanity and you are better off just catching it as Slowbro (esp because Slowpoke evolves very late and thus you get Slowbro earlier with the backtrack). I think I had suggested D-tier, though I may have also suggested C-tier as a generosity. Slowking, while I haven't used it, will most likely perform similarly, as the only difference from a quick look is reversed defenses
Tentacruel, idr how well it performed, but I'd guess it's similar to Gyarados in that they are mid-game Water-types in the Slow growth rate, C/B was what I had in mind when I used it, leaning more towards C. Unfortunately, it doesn't learn Waterfall, so you cannot stick all HMs on it and call it a day
Lapras, arguably, could be B-tier as well because of natural Ice Beam, making it particularly good against Clair (you outspeed all Dragonair iirc, so you can just OHKO them), though I think the Lance matchup was worse than expected (mainly cause Dragonite outspeed you). You do need to backtrack for it and deal with a Slow growth, but I think B-tier is more than enough
I think the thing that stands out for me about the Red Gyarados compared to all of those other Water-types is just how...effortless it is to use. Like, yes you can probably point out "flaws" in how it performs, but this Pokemon is a compulsory, high-level encounter that is practically GIVEN to you and happens to learn a bunch of mandatory HMs that it can actually use in battles effectively. Given that efficiency, in this context, is fundamentally a measure of a Pokemon's useful output in relation to the amount of time and effort required to make it useful in the first place, I'd argue that ranking the Red Gyarados above that other mid-game Waters, who are arguably better at battling in some respects but come with a not insignificant time/opportunity cost cost to obtain and/or train (e.g. a back-track, level grinding, obtaining and using one-time TMs, etc.), can be justified.
Like it honestly feels like a hinderance to NOT use the Red Gyarados, even if you pick Totodile (because even with the redundant coverage you are getting your non-deadweight Waterfall user for free - Feraligatr doesn't learn Waterfall in these games). Literally, if you were doing almost any playthrough of these games and you decided to use something like Tentacruel or Slowbro as your mid-game Water in lieu of the Red Gyarados, you are deliberately slowing yourself down without, in my opinion, making the end-game "easier" enough to justify it. That is just how efficient the Red Gyarados is.
I have previously argued that Red Gyarados should be A-tier, but given that Totodile has apparently dropped from S to A (something I personally don't agree with for similar reasons btw, but not a hill I feel the need to die on), there is probably a stronger case for B-tier than before.
I can't speak for where it's going to land this list (I'd say B-tier is good), but one thing it has over most Water-types, outside of the high join level, is that you can just give it four HMs (Water HMs and Strength) without impacting its perfomance significantly (the only loss here is you cannot run Thunder and Blizzard on it, but Gyarados has a fairly low Special Attack, so I doubt it'd make good use of those anyways). With that said, it doesn't destroy the whole game, but from memory, it's never a deadweight anywhere, which is why B-tier seems good to me (I'd have to check logs for more information)
Quagsire has somewhat underwhelming stats despite the decent typing and falls off more heavily later on in the game, from memories. Wooper is also rather eh before evolving into Quagsire, though at least it's usable on the field to make this a non-issue. This is me speaking from memory, though, I'd have to check my logs to see how it performed, but C-tier sounds just right for it (I wouldn't say it's better than the Nidos, which are pmuch agreed to be C-tier iirc)
Slowbro is very slow and thus easy to wear down, especially with the amount of hax that is present in the games. You also have to backtrack for it, as using Slowpoke is pure insanity and you are better off just catching it as Slowbro (esp because Slowpoke evolves very late and thus you get Slowbro earlier with the backtrack). I think I had suggested D-tier, though I may have also suggested C-tier as a generosity. Slowking, while I haven't used it, will most likely perform similarly, as the only difference from a quick look is reversed defenses
Tentacruel, idr how well it performed, but I'd guess it's similar to Gyarados in that they are mid-game Water-types in the Slow growth rate, C/B was what I had in mind when I used it, leaning more towards C. Unfortunately, it doesn't learn Waterfall, so you cannot stick all HMs on it and call it a day
(Obligatory "I am going off memory and therefore do not guarantee 100% accurate statements" disclaimer)
Quagsire is the worst of all of those against Chuck due to not resisting Fighting (or Water against Poliwrath) and falls off significantly after Pryce (or Team Rocket if you care about it, most people here haven't taken Team Rocket into account for their rankings) due to its rather lackluster stats, so almost all of its later matchups are worse than those of Gyarados.
Slowbro is rather bad against Jasmine since the Magnemite will obliterate you together (though Gyara is unlikely to be better, unless Surf manages to OHKO Magnemite, which I highly doubt). In addition, you have tons of hax later on (like the various confusion-inducing moves) which Slowbro is almost surely suffering through due to being slow and not being capable of OHKOing things, not to mention that you will have to heal it quite often. Admittedly, this one I remember the least, so expect some inaccuracies in what I am saying.
Tentacruel is similar to Gyarados (bar the lower join level), though it's significantly worse against Will due to Psychic weakness (it does get Barrier for Bruno and Koga, though you'd likely have to heal to sweep any of them)
so tl;dr
- Gyarados outperforms Quagsire in just about every matchup after Pryce
- Gyarados outperforms Slowbro in pretty much all matchups due to being faster and also doesn't require backtracking
- Gyarados outperforms Tentacruel against Will, though Cruel gets Barrier for Koga and Bruno, assuming you are willing to heal it when needed
Gyarados's pretty much outright inferior to all of those against Jasmine (some of those can run Blizzard for Dragons, but that's pretty unreliable) and, in most cases, outperforms or performs similarly to the aforementioned ones, but given that Gyarados comes at a more convenient level and can run four HMs for you with no real loss, I think it merits at least one tier higher than most of them (unless you want to make a case for Cruel in B, which wouldn't be impossible) despite this
Just wanna mention that, while it is true that a lot of midgame Water-types require a backtrack, Tenta definitely isn't one of them. You can catch it at level 24 when your team should be at around 25-26 and it effortlessly beats the Rocket Hideout and the next three gyms. While it falls lategame because its offensive stats are mid it can still beat Clair's Kingdra (needs to be level 38 for Barrier) and Karen's Houndoom and sweeps Bruno which is nice. Being weak to Will and relying too much on Blizzard against Lance are its worst points, but otherwise the main thing Gyarados has over it is Waterfall. I think it's the closest to B of that group.
Edit: partly sniped by Ryota Mitarai, although I will add that you don't really need to heal against Bruno since you can Barrier twice against Top and sweep as long as you don't get crit. Refer to this
Bruno (level 41 - 42): Surf 3HKOs all Hitmon. Sludge Bomb can 2HKO Top if it poisons and is a roll to 2HKO Chan (guaranteed with Poison Barb), while Lee is 2HKOed. Top does 50/124 with Dig, Chan 19/124 with ThunderPunch and Lee 27/124 with Hi Jump Kick. Onix is OHKOed by BubbleBeam. Champ is 3HKOed but can proc healing and does 47/124 with Rock Slide (a bit less with Cross Chop). With Barrier you can take advantage of both Top and Lee to minimize the damage and have a better chance against Champ. At +6 Def Rock Slide is only doing 12 damage so you win if you don't get crit. Excellent matchup, can sweep and more importantly beats the ace one-on-one even without a Swagger boost.
The Gyarados vs. Magnemite match-up is hard to assess since its ability to OHKO Magnemtie probably depends on the circumstances of the playthrough (how over-leveled Gyarados is, whether Mystic Water is being used, etc.). I vaguely remember being able to pull it off barely with a mid-30s Seel holding Mystic Water and Seel sucks, but so does my memory lol and I would agree that it isn't something I would consider a win for Gyarados. This is unlikely to be a huge problem for most teams since they'll likely use whichever Dig user they have to deal with Magnemite instead, and Gyarados should be comfortable against Steelix (Rock Throw isn't really that strong even if it's super-effective).
Also, Tentacruel is indeed more convenient than the other Mid-game Waters that have been brought up (Lapras, Slowthings, etc) because unlikely them it's obtainable on an unavoidable water route so it doesn't need a back-track, but it still can't compare to the sheer convenience of Gyarados given that it's a non-guaranteed encounter with a variable catch level of 20-24, so there is STILL going to be an opportunity/time risk that goes beyond just lacking Waterfall that I personally don't think will be entirely made up for by whatever match-ups Tentacruel does better in. It also kind of sucks that Sludge Bomb is awkwardly placed in relation to this route since if you want it ASAP to help in certain match-ups (e.g. to hit Poliwrath with instead of having to spam Acid or whatever) then you'd have to go to Olivine to catch Tentacruel and then backtrack to Ecruteak and do the Lake of Rage plot. I think this is a minor point in a vacuum since Poliwrath is probably the only relevant thing where this matters and you'd still have an arguably favourable match-up without it anyway, so you can hold off and just use Tentacruel as a run-of-the-mill Surf spammer in the meantime, but I'd say it's still much less efficient than just using Gyarados.
Having I said that I do think Tentacruel is probably the closest in efficiency to Gyarados overall. Lapras and the others are good mid-game team additions but just require more effort to set up.
While this isn’t really on the topic of Red Gyarados (haven’t used it seriously, I don’t think like ever?), as someone who has IIRC played both sets of Johto games with Quagsire I can confirm it is painfully mediocre.
Wooper seems useful enough early on with all the Geodude running around but against literally anything else it’s…not very good. I mean it’s not like mooks threaten you at this stage but it’s never standing up to Bugsy’s Scyther.
Then afterward you got Whitney which Quagsire is…actually alright for thanks to reasonably high stats. Miltank will take quite a few Digs IIRC, and that’s a problem when it has Milk Drink, but it’s better than the average unevolved Mon here.
Being a Ground for Morty SOUNDS favorable until you realize since you are so slow you are susceptible to Hypnosis hax, but tbf that’s really the case for pretty much anything here.
Then, aside from Jasmine, you start realizing fast that without type advantages, Quagsire just doesn’t have the power some other mons do until Earthquake. I mean yeah STAB Dig helps but 65 Special Attack Surf, while barely usable, isn’t exactly inspiring.
Even when it finally does get EQ at level 35, you still have the only decent 85 base Attack and sluggish Speed issues. And a lot of things in the E4 resist or are immune to EQ, with Koga and Karen being the only semi-decent matchups.
Lance you could be okay for due to Quagsire’s decent physical bulk, but I’d be surprised if you kill more than two things without healing.
I think it’s easily a C tier - even though it is early, I don’t think it’s notable compared to almost any other Water. I could run with it again though.
I actually think that Wooper/Quagsire might be best used as a mid-game Water rather than as an early-game one. Wooper is quite bad after Union Cave until it evolves, so you might as well skip that part and catch a wild Quagsire in the Ruins of Alph pond when it has higher stats and all of its good moves available to it already. That strategy obviously has the same back-tracking issue as Lapras and co. AND it has a flee chance, although Quagsire's encounter rate is notably higher than some of its brethren which helps a little.
The one exception to skipping Wooper might be if you picked Cyndaquil and you're looking for something to beat the Union Cave Rock-types more easily, since Wooper is the best placed Pokemon to achieve that short-term goal. Bellsprout can also do this but Wooper > Bellsprout overall imo, and Poliwag and Krabby (the two early Route Old Rod mons with immediate Water-type move access) require a back-track and a 15% fishing encounter roll whereas Wooper is literally right there, although the Old Rod mons have a higher encounter level so need less investment to stay "useful" if you want to use them beyond the cave.
But even then, Cyndaquil can just beat the Rock-types by spamming Ember, assuming it has it, since they are nothing more than under-leveled Tackle spammers. And Wooper doesn't help Chikorita or Totodile much during this part of the game since they obviously beat Rocks just fine on their own (Wooper admittedly isn't a horrible Chikorita partner given that it covers Fire, but Geodude also does that and many other things, so I consider Geodude to be the best early-game Chikorita partner).
I actually think that Wooper/Quagsire might be best used as a mid-game Water rather than as an early-game one. Wooper is quite bad after Union Cave until it evolves, so you might as well skip that part and catch a wild Quagsire in the Ruins of Alph pond when it has higher stats and all of its good moves available to it already. That strategy obviously has the same back-tracking issue as Lapras and co. AND it has a flee chance, although Quagsire's encounter rate is notably higher than some of its brethren which helps a little.
The one exception to skipping Wooper might be if you picked Cyndaquil and you're looking for something to beat the Union Cave Rock-types more easily, since Wooper is the best placed Pokemon to achieve that short-term goal. Bellsprout can also do this but Wooper > Bellsprout overall imo, and Poliwag and Krabby (the two early Route Old Rod mons with immediate Water-type move access) require a back-track and a 15% fishing encounter roll whereas Wooper is literally right there, although the Old Rod mons have a higher encounter level so need less investment to stay "useful" if you want to use them beyond the cave.
But even then, Cyndaquil can just beat the Rock-types by spamming Ember, assuming it has it, since they are nothing more than under-leveled Tackle spammers. And Wooper doesn't help Chikorita or Totodile much during this part of the game since they obviously beat Rocks just fine on their own (Wooper admittedly isn't a horrible Chikorita partner given that it covers Fire, but Geodude also does that and many other things, so I consider Geodude to be the best early-game Chikorita partner).
Speaking of Geodude, is it any good in GSC? I’ve never used it here. It was a borderline S tier in HGSS. I glanced at its movepool and it sadly doesn’t get Earthquake until level 41 - see above for how useless that kinda is at the League. But hey, Rollout can maybe be okay.
the problem with catching Quagsire mid-game is that its flee rate (which has already been mentioned, albeit not its exact value) is 50%, so it will be annoying to catch for sure. As I have mentioned, Wooper is at least usable on the field, so unlike things like early-game Tentacool/Magikarp, getting a Wooper early-game is of no detriment to you (unless you filled your team with tons of Pokemon already, but that's moreso you problem than Wooper's problem). In fact, it contributing to Whitney and Morty (even if it won't win against them consistently) is already a good reason to use it earlier.
for Golem/Graveler (they are essentially the same in terms of performance, so it would be reasonable to talk about/tier them together), one major difference between here and HGSS is that they don't have the means to sweep Lance. In HGSS, you'd simply Curl and Rock Polish on Aerodactyl. In this game, you don't have Rock Polish, so you will more-or-less fold to most of his team. On the other hand, they are slightly better against Morty here since they can KO pretty much everything with Magnitude, assuming you haven't been haxed to death.
In terms of performance, the line drops significantly in usefulness after Gym 4. Checking my logs for Graveler, it won't be a total deadweight, but you are certainly not making significant impact with it from Chuck onwards; the most impressive feats are OHKOing Jasmine's Magnemite and having some usefulness against Koga and Karen (in the latter's case, it can OHKO Houndoom, though I don't know if Houndoom can OHKO with Crunch, if I didn't note it in my logs, it probably cannot, but I don't guarantee anything with this).
I'd say it's borderline A / B. It's certainly on the lower end of A-tier if you go for that, though it cannot be denied just how dominant it is early-game, but it wishes it wasn't so mediocre post-Morty until Koga.
I feel like B-tier suits Geodude if considering its performance across all of Johto. It's the Jekyll-and-Hyde of GSC, playing like a comfortable A-tier pre-Morty (it is notably among the best Miltank checks, although it'll likely have to use Self-Destruct to defeat Miltank) but dropping off severely after that when its match-ups start to become worse and its moves start to feel too weak and inconsistent. It's closer to a C-tier at this point: it can still be useful selectively against some opponents which helps mitigate the cost of committing to including it on your team in the first place, but needs way more support from said team to cover its more exploitable weaknesses. So I guess I would just even it out to B-tier.
I feel like B-tier suits Geodude if considering its performance across all of Johto. It's the Jekyll-and-Hyde of GSC, playing like a comfortable A-tier pre-Morty (it is notably among the best Miltank checks, although it'll likely have to use Self-Destruct to defeat Miltank) but dropping off severely after that when its match-ups start to become worse and its moves start to feel too weak and inconsistent. It's closer to a C-tier at this point: it can still be useful selectively against some opponents which helps mitigate the cost of committing to including it on your team in the first place, but needs way more support from said team to cover its more exploitable weaknesses. So I guess I would just even it out to B-tier.
Yeah I totally agree with B-tier sounding reasonable.
Even with the relatively inconsistent moves (90 accuracy Rock Throw, Magnitude RNG) an earlygame that good is borderline unparalleled. I think at absolute WORST you could Selfdestruct on something like Pryce and blow a hole in them as long as you live a hit, but as we all know, that's not "efficient."
Plus Dig with 60 BP and slowness to kill mooks isn't exactly fast, like I alluded to with Quagsire.
I did a playthrough with Totodile, Wooper, Poliwag (Trade) and Slowpoke (Trade) months ago, but I never got to post the logs. Here are the results: (EDIT: Forgot to add, DVs are 9 Atk, 8 everything else)
Totodile (9): Assuming you get attacked every turn, Rage 3HKOs Pidgey and 3HKOs Pidgeotto.
Totodile (16): Unboosted Rage 8HKOs Metapod. After three hits, Rage 2HKOs Kakuna and after four hits Rage 3HKOs Scyther (turns into a 2HKO with Scyther's attack).
Slowpoke (12): At +6 Atk, Tackle 2HKOs Metapod and 4HKOs Scyther, which 10HKOs +6 Def Slowpoke with unboosted Fury Cutter. With the Swift TM, Slowpoke 2HKOs Scyther and OHKOs Metapod and Kakuna.
Poliwag (15): Water Gun 3-4HKOs Metapod and Kakuna, but 9HKOs Scyther, whose unboosted Fury Cutter 8HKOs Poliwag from full. Must land Hypnosis on Scyther twice on average to win.
Wooper (13): Both Water Gun and Slam 5HKO Metapod and Kakuna. Slam 8HKOs Scyther, whose unboosted Fury Cutter 8HKOs Wooper from full.
Croconaw (18): Water Gun 2HKOs Gastly and 3HKOs Zubat, while the Fury Cutter TM 3HKOs Bayleef. It must be noted that a team of four members won't have evolved Totodile.
Poliwag (15): Water Gun 3HKOs Gastly, but is OHKO'd by Bayleef's Razor Leaf.
Slowpoke (15): At +4 Atk, Slowpoke OHKOs Gastly with the Mud-Slap TM, 2HKOs Bayleef and OHKOs Zubat with the Swift TM.
Wooper (13): Water Gun 5HKOs Gastly. Bayleef OHKOs Wooper.
Croconaw (20): Unboosted Rage 5HKOs Clefairy. After six hits, Rage 3HKOs Miltank (turns into a 2HKO after the 7th hit).
Wooper (18): With the Rollout TM, Wooper 4HKOs Clefairy, and the fifth hit OHKOs Miltank. Miltank's Rollout 4HKOs Wooper and Stomp 2HKOs Wooper. Needs a Gold Berry or evolution to win consistently (the latter isn't possible without grinding).
Poliwag (20): Headbutt 3HKOs Clefairy and Miltank 7HKOs - however, Miltank handily 2HKOs with Stomp, which means that even Hypnosis won't save Poliwag.
Slowpoke (17): Slowpoke can set up Curse to the max and OHKO Clefairy and 2HKO Miltank with Headbutt.
Croconaw (24): Surf 2HKOs Haunter and OHKOs Magnemite, and Ice Punch 3HKOs Bayleef and OHKOs Zubat, while Bayleef 3HKOs with Razor Leaf. Consistent win with a Berry, although watch out for Curse.
Quagsire (21): Ideally you'd set up Amnesia to deal with Bayleef, but Haunter's Curse prevents this. A Rollout sweep is not possible because Bayleef outspeeds.
Poliwag (23): Since it is faster than Haunter, it can land Hypnosis before Haunter uses Curse. Surf 2HKOs Haunter, Zubat and Magnemite, but Headbutt 5HKOs Bayleef, who 2HKOs back with Razor Leaf, making Hypnosis necessary.
Slowpoke (21): Can't set up Curse against Haunter or Magnemite (who 3HKOs with Thundershock), which means it can't defeat Bayleef.
Croconaw (27): Surf OHKOs Gastly, 2HKOs Haunter and 3HKOs Gengar, who outspeeds and uses Hypnosis. With the Dig TM, Croconaw can OHKO Haunter and 2HKO Gengar, although it still needs to dodge one Hypnosis if it equips a Mint Berry.
Quagsire (24): Surf 2HKOs Gastly and Haunter, and 3HKOs Gengar. With the Dig TM, Quagsire OHKOs Gastly and Haunter, and 2HKOs Gengar, although it still needs to dodge one Hypnosis if it equips a Mint Berry. With the Rollout TM it can OHKO Gengar at the third hit, although it may have to dodge one Hypnosis either from Haunter or Gengar for a sweep.
Poliwhirl (26): Can outspeed and use Hypnosis against Gastly. Then set up Rain Dance. Surf OHKOs Gastly and Haunter, and outspeeds and 2HKOs Gengar.
Slowpoke (24): Confusion 2HKOs Gastly and 3HKOs Gengar, although this one outspeeds and 2HKOs with Shadow Ball. With the Dig TM, Slowpoke 3HKOs Gengar, although Gastly's and Haunter's Curse makes setting up unlikely.
Feraligatr (32): Return 2HKOs Primeape (misses out OHKO by little) and 3HKOs Poliwrath.
Quagsire (30): Surf 2HKOs Primeape, but Poliwrath 2HKOs with Dynamic Punch. Even with the Rollout TM, it can't OHKO Poliwrath at the 5th strike.
Politoed (32): Set up Rain Dance and OHKO Primeape and 3HKO Poliwrath with Surf.
Slowking (30): Confusion 2HKOs Primeape and Poliwrath. It can set up Curse to deal with Dynamic Punch.
Quagsire (31): Headbutt (Pink Bow) 2HKOs Seel and 3HKOs Dewgong. It can set up one Amnesia to mitigate damage by Aurora Beam. Surf 2HKOs Piloswine, although it misses the OHKO by little.
Slowking (31): Headbutt (Pink Bow) 2HKOs Seel and 3HKOs Dewgong. You can set up four Curses to reach OHKOs. Surf OHKOs Piloswine.
Feraligatr (33): Surf (Mystic Water) OHKOs Magnemite and Steelix.
Quagsire (31): Surf (Mystic Water) OHKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Steelix (3HKOs after Sunny Day).
Politoed (33): Surf (Mystic Water) OHKOs Magnemite and Steelix.
Slowking (31): Surf (Mystic Water) OHKOs Magnemite and Steelix.
Feraligatr (34): Ice Punch 2HKOs Golbat and Meganium, Bite 2HKOs Haunter, Surf OHKOs Magnemite, and Return 2HKOs Sneasel. With the Blizzard TM, Feraligatr OHKOs Golbat to avoid Confuse Ray, but not Meganium (though you can still KO with Return even after Meganium used Reflect).
Quagsire (32): Ice Punch 2HKOs Golbat and 3HKOs Meganium, however it can't really set up Amnesia against Golbat to avoid the OHKO by Razor Leaf.
Politoed (34): Ice Punch 2HKOs Golbat and Meganium. Surf OHKOs Magnemite, Haunter and Sneasel. With the Blizzard TM, Politoed OHKOs Golbat to avoid Confuse Ray, but not Meganium (though you can still KO with Surf).
Slowking (32): Ice Punch 2HKOs Golbat and Meganium, which 4HKOs with Razor Leaf. Surf OHKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Sneasel. With the Blizzard TM, Slowking OHKOs Golbat but not Meganium (though you can still KO with Confusion). However, even with the Blizzard TM, Haunter finishes off Slowking with Shadow Ball due to its low speed.
Feraligatr (38): Ice Punch 2HKOs Dragonair, and Return 3HKOs Kingdra. With the Blizzard TM, Feraligatr can OHKO Dragonair to avoid Thunder Wave, and can even afford to miss one Blizzard if it equips a Paralysis Berry.
Quagsire (36): Earthquake 2HKOs Dragonair. After one Amnesia, Dragonair starts using the inaccurate Slam. It can win with the Rest TM, as it can fully set up Amnesia.
Politoed (38): Ice Punch 2HKOs Dragonair and Strength 4HKOs Kingdra, although Kingdra outspeeds. With the Blizzard TM, Politoed can OHKO Dragonair to avoid Thunder Wave and can even afford to miss one Blizzard if it equips a Paralysis Berry.
Slowking (36): Ice Punch 2HKOs Dragonair. With the Blizzard TM, Slowking can OHKO Dragonair, although it will have to deal with Thunder Wave due to its low speed. However, Kingdra is out of its reach due to low speed and Kingdra's access to mixed attacks.
Feraligatr (40): Return OHKOs Sneasel (range) and Kadabra. Surf 2HKOs Magneton and Haunter (range for an OHKO?). Ice Punch barely misses out on the 2HKO against Meganium (perhaps range?). With the Blizzard TM, Feraligatr OHKOs Golbat and leaves Meganium at low health.
Quagsire (38): Earthquake OHKOs Sneasel, Magneton, Haunter and Kadabra; Ice Punch 2HKOs Golbat. With the Defense Curl and Rollout TMs, Quagsire can 2HKO Sneasel, but the third hit doesn't OHKO Meganium. This gives the impression that if the rival has other starter, the match-ups against the rival are positive instead (which makes sense, as you'd rather pick a Water-type if you don't have Totodile).
Politoed (40): Surf 2HKOs Sneasel, Kadabra and Magneton (OHKO with Rain Dance), OHKOs Haunter. Strength OHKOs Kadabra. With the Blizzard TM, Politoed OHKOs Golbat and leaves Meganium at low health.
Slowking (38): Surf 2HKOs Sneasel and Magneton (OHKO with the Rain Dance TM). With the Blizzard TM, Slowking OHKOs Golbat and leaves Meganium at low health. Haunter 2HKOs with Shadow Ball, and due to low speed, Slowking will also be hit by Thundershock and two Razor Leaves.
Feraligatr (40): Ice Punch 2HKOs Xatu, which 3HKOs with Psychic, and Exeggutor. Return OHKOs Jynx (range). Bite 3HKOs Slowbro. The second Xatu outspeeds, which impedes the sweep. With the Blizzard TM, Feraligatr OHKOs Xatu and leaves Exeggutor at low health.
Quagsire (38): Ice Punch 2HKOs Xatu and Exeggutor. After boosing Amnesia to the maximum, Quagsire can stand Psychic - however the Rest TM comes at the expense of one of Quagsire's moves (should it keep Surf?).
Politoed (40): Ice Punch 2HKOs Xatu. Rain Dance Surf 2HKOs Jynx (probably doesn't need Rain Dance for the 2HKO). With the Blizzard TM, Politoed OHKOs Xatu and Exeggutor.
Slowking (38): Ice Punch 2HKOs Xatu and Exeggutor. With the Blizzard TM, Slowking OHKOs Xatu and Exeggutor. However, it can't win due to its low speed.
Feraligatr (41): Return 2HKOs Ariados and Venomoth, and 3HKOs Muk. Surf 2HKOs Forretress and 4HKOs Muk (you must use Surf if Muk uses Acid Armor). Ice Punch 2HKOs Crobat. The Blizzard TM doesn't allow a OHKO against Crobat.
Quagsire (39): Earthquake OHKOs Muk, 2HKOs Ariados and Venomoth, and 4HKOs Forretress. Surf 3HKOs Forretress. Ice Punch 3HKOs Crobat.
Politoed (41): Rain Dance Surf OHKOs Ariados and Forretress and 2HKOs Muk and Crobat (maybe this doesn't need Rain Dance), but misses on the OHKO against Venomoth, which outspeeds and can disrupt with Supersonic.
Slowking (39): Confusion 2HKOs Ariados and Venomoth, 3HKOs Muk. Surf 2HKOs Forretress. Ice Punch 2HKOs Crobat. You can set up Curse against Forretress to deal with Muk's Sludge Bomb damage, which 3HKOs Slowking, and Crobat's Wing Attack, which 5HKOs Slowking. After two Curses, Earthquake OHKOs Muk (haven't tested unboosted).
Feraligatr (41): Return 3HKOs Hitmontop (misses the 2HKO by little, range?) and Machamp, and, 2HKOs Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee. Surf OHKOs Onix.
Quagsire (39): Earthquake OHKOs Hitmontop underground, 2HKOs Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan, but its low speed lets it fall against Machamp. Maybe Defense Curl + Rest?
Politoed (41): Rain Dance Surf 2HKOs Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop (Rain Dance is not necessary for those 2HKOs) and Machamp, and OHKOs Onix. Hitmonlee outspeeds Politoed and 3HKOs with Hi-Jump Kick, which means Politoed should land Hypnosis.
Slowking (39): Confusion 3HKOs Machamp, 2HKOs Hitmonchan, Hitmontop and Hitmonlee (all ranges). Slowking can set up Curse against Hitmontop during Dig. Surf OHKOs Onix. Machamp's Cross Chop 4HKOs Slowking (8HKOs after two Curses). Hitmonchan's Thunder Punch 8HKOs Slowking.
Feraligatr (41): Return is a 4HKO against Umbreon. Ice Punch is a 3HKO against Vileplume. With the Dynamic Punch TM, Feraligatr can 2HKO Umbreon - however it is not suggested due to low accuracy. The Earthquake TM misses on the OHKO against Gengar by very little. With the Blizzard TM, Feraligatr can 2HKO Vileplume even after Moonlight, and OHKO Murkrow. With Sand Attack and Confuse Ray from Umbreon, a sweep is unlikely.
Quagsire (40): Earthquake 4HKOs Umbreon, OHKOs Houndoom and probably Gengar,
Politoed (41): Rain Dance Surf 3HKOs Umbreon (misses out on the 2HKO by little), 2HKOs Gengar and OHKOs Houndoom. Ice Punch 2HKOs Vileplume and Murkrow. Should land Hypnosis on Umbreon and Vileplume.
Slowking (40): Didn't bother because it is a Dark-type specialist. Don't see how it would fare better.
Feraligatr (42): Return 3HKOs Gyarados. Ice Punch 2HKOs Dragonite. Surf 2HKOs Charizard and Aerodactyl. With the Blizzard TM and Nevermeltice, Feraligatr can outspeed and OHKO each of the Dragonites. With the Rain Dance TM, Feraligatr can OHKO Charizard and Aerodactyl, although both of them outspeed and 4HKO or 3HKO respectively with Hyper Beam. Ideally you want to set Rain Dance against Charizard
Quagsire (40): Gyarados's Hyper Beam 2HKOs, and since it is slow, the Defense Curl + Rollout combination won't work. Could probably win with Rest if it boosts its defenses with Amnesia and Defense Curl + Rollout? Should Surf be dropped in the endgame? Didn't have the chance to try, and this affects other matches anyways.
Politoed (42): Rain Dance Surf 4HKOs, which means there is no easy way past Gyarados. Dragonite also outspeeds, which means it can't take on all Dragonites.
Slowking (40): Dragonite outspeeds, which means Slowking can't take on all Dragonites with Blizzard.
Results: Totodile should be A. There are a couple of match-ups that it can't win without investing important TMs (most importantly Clair and Lance, also the Rival is more reliable with Blizzard), and others where it can't straight up win without a lot of luck (Will, Karen), and I believe those put it underneath the top tiers. Honestly I'd make an argument for B if it wasn't because of Blizzard, since without it, it would struggle to break through very important boss fights, but S is not into consideration for me.
Wooper's performance in my playthrough was pretty much D. There were few good match-ups, but not enough to salvage it. However, a bunch of the negative ones were due to Silver having Bayleef on his team, which is a bit redundant since I picked the Water-type starter. As I say in Silver's last battle, as a partner for other starters this should contribute against the Rival much more strongly, so I think Wooper should be C.
Poliwag (Trade) should be B. Its start is pretty bad - however once it nabs Rain Dance it starts being able to win battles, and the fact that it sweeps Morty is pretty impressive. This one is kinda worse if you picked Cyndaquil (since at least it has Ice-type attacks for Meganium, but for Feraligatr you'd have to rely on Rain Dance boosted Surf, although you probably still win), though it is a little bit better if you picked Chikorita so it balances out. Hypnosis also helps it against battles it doesn't have the durability to win.
Slowpoke (Trade) should be C. Contrary to Poliwag, its start is actually really good thanks to Curse, which lets it muscle through the first few Gym battles with surprising reliability. However, its lack of speed easily becomes a detriment in the long run, which didn't let it win battles that its peers could, since it would get worn down by repeated attacks. I suspect similarly to Wooper that it should be better when partnered with another starter (especially Chikorita), since the Rival battles wouldn't be as complicated with a type advantage against Silver's strongest Pokémon, and that could probably push it to B. (EDIT: I saw that Ryota nominated Slowbro for D, and I see it as plausible given that a wild Slowbro won't have Slowpoke's earlygame)
So after various circumstances I am back and willing to do some testing. Unfortunately my last run will be redone later since I saved between the elite 4 and can’t find the data I collected since only Bruno and Lance are not annoying to go through. Will eventually just level up those 4 around the levels I saw them at on the old save and just do the Elite 4. Currently looking at Cloyster as a possible candidate for a run. Trying to think of what else to add but most of the early pokemon have been tested alot and the only one that looks to not be tested terribly much is Hoppip which I only have to glance at moveset and stats to know will be awful.
So after various circumstances I am back and willing to do some testing. Unfortunately my last run will be redone later since I saved between the elite 4 and can’t find the data I collected since only Bruno and Lance are not annoying to go through. Will eventually just level up those 4 around the levels I saw them at on the old save and just do the Elite 4. Currently looking at Cloyster as a possible candidate for a run. Trying to think of what else to add but most of the early pokemon have been tested alot and the only one that looks to not be tested terribly much is Hoppip which I only have to glance at moveset and stats to know will be awful.
Well in that case I am going with Cloyster, Arcanine, Exeggutor, with Lugia to be the last slot. Probably will be an apt demonstration on why you don’t load up on a full team of slow exp pokemon but hopefully Lugia not really getting much EXP will alleviate that.
Growlithe at level 11 2HKO the Pidgey and 3HKO the Pidgeotto with Ember while taking 5 damage from the Pidgey Mudslap and around 7 damage from Pidgeotto’s gust. Was in a speed tie with Pidgeotto. Pretty good matchup as long as you don’t miss from the accuracy lowering of mudslap plus having a berry equipped for safety. Though I won with 13 HP after the Pidgeotto crit once so it probably is unneeded.
Growlithe at level 16 1HKO the Metapod and Kakuna while a 3HKO on the Scyther with Ember while needing around 4 to 5 fury cutters to consecutively hit to be knocked out. Scyther is the only one to outspeed. If Scyther does use quick attack it is a 4HKO. Excellent matchup based on what I saw since I did not buy a charcoal so unless Scyther crits is a pretty consistent sweep.
Growlithe at level 17 1HKO the Gastly with bite, 3HKO on Zubat and Bayleef with ember. Takes around 8 damage from razor leaf and 6 damage from bite. Pretty good matchup since my Growlithe had 51 HP.
Arcanine at level 21 2HKO the Clefairy with Headbutt and 3HKO with ember without charcoal. The Miltank is around a 5HKO with Headbutt, dig or Ember. Rollout starts around 15 damage and needs to be stopped with dig. Stomp does around 20 damage. Arcanine is also speed tied with Miltank so the battle is random on who wins. Decent matchup overall.
Exeggutor at level 19 outspeeds and 3HKOs the Clefairy with confusion or 3 consecutive rollout hits. Miltank will be taken out with either the fourth and fifth hits of rollout or 3 to 4 hits of confusion. Miltank outspeeds so the matchup is dependent on if they go for the 20 damage flinch chance stomps or rollout which you can tank up to 3 while trying to break it with hypnosis. Overall the matchup is good overall considering it can beat both despite how RNG based it is.
Arcanine had a solid growlithe stage with him oddly having lower performance after evolving since Miltank is so strong. Hopefully he performs better in the next gyms since they are either frailer or he hits an elemental weakness.
Exeggutor is a miserable experience to raise without rollout until level 13 where leach seed unironically does more damage than barrage. Rollout is recommended to replace barrage but if someone else needs it the grind to 19 is alot more painful. Pretty good first showing though considering it is slower than Miltank. Now I am going to go grab shelder before Morty then get started on the next observations.
Karen (in the latter's case, it can OHKO Houndoom, though I don't know if Houndoom can OHKO with Crunch, if I didn't note it in my logs, it probably cannot, but I don't guarantee anything with this).
I did a second try on Graveler and it does survived a Crunch from Houndoom from full, albeit barely because even getting hit by Gengar's Lick of all things is enough to put Graveler in range of a 1HKO from Houndoom.
Anyway, while I'm still waiting for Cyndaquil to get freed, i'm gonna post another log with Caterpie, Bellsprout (C), Sudowoodo and Elekid(Non Shiny Odd Egg) that i finished like 2 months ago.
=Falkner=
Butterfree L11
Set-up 1 Harden
Confusion 2HKOs Pidgey and 3HKOs Pidgeotto
With a Harden boost, its a clean sweep even without Berry =Bugsy=
Butterfree L16-17
Confusion 2HKOs Metapod, 1HKOs Kakuna and 6HKOs Scyther
Needs luck around Sleep Powder =Rival 2=
Butterfree L17
Confusion 1HKOs Gastly, 6HKOs Bayleef and puts Zubat in red.
Can sweep barring PoisonPowder =Whitney=
Butterfree L19
Confusion is super close to 4HKOing Clefairy and 6HKOing Miltank. Miltank outspeeds and does 3/4th back with Rollout =Rival 3=
Butterfree L21
Confusion 2HKOs Haunter and Zubat, 6HKOs Magnemite and is close to 6HKOing Bayleef
Beats 3 at best =Morty=
Butterfree L23
Confusion 1HKOs Gastly, 2HKOs Haunter, and 3HKOs Gengar. Both Haunter and Gengar outspeeds
At level 25, Butterfree outspeeds both Haunters, use Sleep Powder on L21 Haunter to prevent Curse
Needs at level 25 to possibly sweep =Chuck=
Butterfree L30
Confusion 2HKOs Primeape and is close to 3HKOing Poliwrath. Poliwrath 3HKOs back
Needs Sleep Powder to sweep. =Jasmine=
Butterfree L30
Confusion is super close to 6HKOing the Magnemites. The Magnemites almost 1HKOs back
Bad =Pryce=
Butterfree L31
Confusion 4HKOs Seel and is close to 6HKOing Dewgong and 5HKOing Piloswine
Bad =Rival 4=
Butterfree L34
Psybeam 2HKOs Golbat, 4HKOs Magnemite and is close to 1HKOing Haunter. Golbat 2HKOs back, Haunter speedties
Gust 4HKOs Sneasel and Meganium
Needs Sleep Powder to sweep =Clair=
Butterfree L37
Psybeam 4HKOs the Dragonairs and 6HKOs Kingdra. Tbolt/Ice Beam one almost 2HKOs back, Kingdra outspeeds and 2HKOs back =Rival 5=
Butterfree L39-40
Gust 2HKOs Kadabra and is close to 3HKOing Sneasel. Both outspeeds
Psybeam 2HKOs Golbat, 6HKOs Magneton and Meganium, and puts Haunter in red. Magneton almost 2HKOs back, Meganium can 3HKO back
Beats 5 at best =Will=
Butterfree L40
Gust 4HKOs Exeggutor, 5HKOs L40 Xatu, 3HKOs Jynx, and is close to 5HKOing L42 Xatu. Both Xatus outspeeds and almost 2HKOs back, Exeggutor 2HKOs back, Jynx outspeeds and 2HKOs back
=Koga=
Butterfree L40
Psybeam 2HKOs Ariados and Venomoth, 3HKOs Crobat and 4HKOs Muk. Venomoth 4HKOs back, Muk 2HKOs back, Crobat almost 1HKOs back
Beats 2 or 3 at best =Bruno=
Butterfree L41
Psybeam 3HKOs all bar Machamp, who is super close to 3HKOing
Beats 2 or 3 at best. Needs Sleep Powder =Karen=
Butterfree L41
Psybeam 3HKOs Vileplume and Gengar
Gust is close to 4HKOing Murkrow
Beats 2 at best =Lance=
Butterfree L42
Psybeam is close to 6HKOing Gyarados and 7HKOing L47 Dragonites. L47 Dragonite outspeeds and 1HKOs back with Hyper Beam
Honestly, I want to go for E Tier on this one, but D Tier is fine, i guess. Butterfree is one of few pokemon that can learned Sleep + Nightmare, with its Sleep move being 15% more accurate than others, but i can't deny its damage output is bad and its heavy reliance on Sleep Powder (and Nightmare) to do something. Relying on UnSTAB move really hurts, but at the very least its not a Normal-type throughout the game, but a Psychic-type, which is decent given the plethora of Poison-Types this game had, but its stuck with Confusion until Level 34 for Psybeam and its abysmal against anything not weak to it (its only 4HKOing Pryce's Seel and close to 4HKOing Whitney's Clefairy) and most of these Poison-types are from Team Rocket Grunts that you should have no trouble dealing with using others.
=Falkner=
Bellsprout L11
+2 Vine Whip 2HKOs Pidgey and 4HKOs Pidgeotto. Pigeotto outspeeds and 2HKOs back
Bad =Bugsy=
Bellsprout L16 @ MiracleSeed
+6 MiracleSeed Vine Whip 2HKOs Kakuna and is super close to 1HKOing Metapod and 6HKOing Scyther
Needs Luck around Sleep Powder =Rival 2=
Bellsprout L16-17 @ MiracleSeed
+2 MiracleSeed Vine Whip 2HKOs Gastly
+4 MiracleSeed Vine Whip 4HKOs Zubat and is super close to 4HKOing Bayleef
+5 MiracleSeed Vine Whip 1HKOs Gastly
+6 MiracleSeed Vine Whip 3HKOs Zubat and is super close to 3HKOing Bayleef
All outspeeds. Not good =Whitney=
Weepinbell L21 @ MiracleSeed
+2 MiracleSeed Vine Whip 2HKOs Clefairy and 3HKOs Miltank
+3 MiracleSeed Vine Whip 2HKOs Miltank
It can sweep
As Victreebel
+2 MiracleSeed Vine Whip 2HKOs all =Rival 3=
Weepinbell L21-22 @ MiracleSeed
+3 MiracleSeed Vine Whip 5HKOs Bayleef, 2HKOs Magnemite and is close to 4HKOing Zubat
+4 MiracleSeed Vine Whip 4HKOs Bayleef and Zubat
+5 MiracleSeed Vine Whip is close to 1HKOing Magnemite, and 3HKOing Zubat and Bayleef
Cut 5HKOs Bayleef without Reflect and is close to 2HKOing Zubat. Bayleef speedties
As Victreebel
+3 MiracleSeed Vine Whip 2HKOs Magnemite and 4HKOs Bayleef and Zubat
+4 MiracleSeed Vine Whip 2HKO is close to 3HKOing Bayleef and Zubat
+5 MiracleSeed Vine Whip is close to 1HKOing Magnemite
Can only safely set-up on Bayleef. Needs Sleep Powder =Morty=
Weepinbell L23 @ Mint Berry
Vine Whip 2HKOs Gastly after a Curse. All outspeeds
Bad
As Victreebel
+2 Vine Whip 2HKOs Gastly, 3HKOs Haunter and 5HKOs Gengar. Gengar and both Haunter outspeeds.
Not good =Chuck=
Victreebel L30
Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Poliwrath and has a roll to 1HKO Primeape(guaranteed if poisoned). Clean Sweep =Jasmine=
Victreebel L30 @ PRZCureBerry
+4 Vine Whip 2HKOs all. Steelix 2HKOs back
Needs PRZCure Berry and luck around sleep to sweep =Pryce=
Victreebel L31 @ MiracleSeed
Sludge Bomb 1HKOs Seel and 2HKOs Dewgong. Dewgong almost 2HKOs back
MiracleSeed Vine Whip is close to 2HKOing Piloswine
Needs Sleep Powder to sweep =Rival 4=
Victreebel L34
Sludge Bomb 3HKOs Golbat and is close to 1HKOing Sneasel and Meganium
+3 Vine Whip KOs Haunter after a Curse and 2HKOs Magnemite
Needs Sleep Powder and Growth to sweep. =Clair=
Victreebel L38 @ PRZCureBerry / Poison Barb
Poison Barb Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Kingdra and is close to 1HKOing the Dragonairs. Kingdra outspeeds and 3HKOs back.Needs Poison Barb to get 2HKO against Kingdra
Beats 2 Dragonairs at best. It can possibly 1v1 Kingdra. Needs Sleep Powder to get a full sweep. =Rival 5=
Victreebel L39-40 @ Poison Barb
Poison Barb Sludge Bomb 1HKOs Sneasel, Kadabra and Meganium, and 3HKOs Golbat
+2 Vine Whip 3HKOs Magneton and is close to 2HKOing Haunter
Beats 3 or 4 at best. Needs Sleep Powder to beat Golbat. Growth is needed for Magneton(and Sleep Powder on this one) and Haunter =Will=
Victreebel L40 @ Poison Barb
Poison Barb Sludge Bomb 2HKOs the Xatus and is super close to 1HKOing Exeggutor. L40 Xatu almost 1HKOs back, Jynx and Exeggutor 1HKOs back
Vine Whip 3HKOs Slowbro without Amnesia
Beats 1 or 2 at best with Sleep Powder =Koga=
Victreebel L40
Forgot to grab the Return TM, but even with that, its only beating Ariados and possibly Venomoth at best =Bruno=
Victreebel L41-42 @ Poison Barb
Poison Barb Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Top and Chan, 1HKOs Lee and is close to 2HKOing Machamp
Vine Whip 1HKOs Onix
Beats 4, Needs Sleep Powder for a sweep =Karen=
Victreebel L41@ Poison Barb
Poison Barb Sludge Bomb 3HKOs Umbreon, 2HKOs Vileplume and puts Murkrow in red
Beats 3 at best =Lance=
Victreebel L42 @ Poison Barb
Poison Barb Sludge Bomb 3HKOs the Dragonites and is close to 2HKOing Gyarados(guaranteed if poisoned). Thunder Dragonite can 2HKO back with Twister into Hyper Beam
Beats 1 or 2 at best
Mixed between C or D on this one, though i'm leaning towards C Tier. Its best to just catch Bellsprout at Route 32 unless you like slowly grind your way through Sprout Tower with a 10 PP move that gets quad-resisted, and its never going to do something against Falkner. Growth is nice, but its gonna rely on multiple boost due to only having 35 BP Vine Whip and most bosses resisted Grass and needing Sleep Powder to beat or safely set-up on certain mon. (it only needs 2 or 3 boost against Whitney, however).
=Rival 3=
Sudowoodo L21
Rock Throw KOs Haunter after a Curse and 1HKOs Zubat
Low Kick puts Magnemite in red
Bayleef outspeeds and 2HKOs back
Beats 3 at best =Morty=
Sudowoodo L23 @ Mint Berry
Rock Throw KOs Gastly after a Curse
Dig 2HKOs Gengar and 1HKOs the rest.
Can only beat 3(Gastly, Gengar, L23 Haunter) at best =Chuck=
Sudowoodo L30
Dig is close to 2HKOing Primeape. Primeape outspeeds and almost 3HKOs back, but it sometimes goes for other moves.
Poliwrath outspeeds and almost 1HKOs back from full
only beats Primeape =Jasmine=
Sudowoodo L30 @ PRZCure Berry
Dig 1HKOs the Magnemite. The Magnemite outspeeds and 2HKOs back =Pryce=
Sudowoodo L31
Rock Slide 1HKOs Dewgong and is close to 1HKOing Seel
Low Kick is close to 2HKOing Piloswine. Piloswine outspeeds and almost 2HKOs back
Beats 2 at best =Rival 4=
Sudowoodo L33
Rock Slide KOs Haunter after a Curse and 1HKOs Golbat and Sneasel
Dig 1HKOs Magnemite
Meganium outspeeds and 2HKOs back
Beats 4 at best =Clair=
Sudowoodo L38 @ PRZCure Berry
Rock Slide 2HKOs the Dragonairs. All outspeeds, Surf Dragonair 2HKOs back, Kingdra 1HKOs back, the other 2 almost 3HKOs back
Beats 1 or 2 Dragonairs at best. =Rival 5=
Sudowoodo L39
Rock Slide 1HKOs Sneasel, Golbat, Haunter and Kadabra
Earthquake 1HKOs Magneton
All outspeeds, Meganium 2HKOs back
Beats 5 at best barring hax =Will=
Sudowoodo L40
Rock Slide 1HKOs Jynx and both Xatus. All outspeeds and 2HKOs back
Beats 1 at best =Koga=
Sudowoodo L40
Earthquake 2HKOs Muk
Rock Slide 1HKOs Ariados and Venomoth, 4HKOs Forretress, and puts Crobat in red. Ariados speedties, the rest outspeeds
Beats 3 or 4 at best barring hax =Bruno=
Sudowoodo L41
Earthquake 2HKOs Onix and Chan, and puts Top in red
Beats 1 at best =Karen=
Sudowoodo L41
Rock Slide 4HKOs Umbreon, and 1HKOs Houndoom and Murkrow. All outspeeds, Houndoom 2HKOs back, Murkrow 3HKOs back, Umbreon 4HKOs back
Earthquake 1HKOs Gengar
Beats 2 at best(3 with one offscreen heal) =Lance=
Sudowoodo L42
Rock Slide 1HKOs Charizard, 2HKOs the Dragonites and puts Aerodactyl and Gyarados in red. The Dragonites 2HKOs back, Aerodactyl almost 3HKOs back
Beats 2 at best barring hax.
Going for D Tier on this one. It may find some uses, but it doesn't sweep through anything aside from Rival if you picked Chikorita, i guess. Joining at a good level and having a STAB Rock Slide at Level 28 is cool, but its also slow.
=Whitney=
Elekid L20
Thunderpunch 4HKOs Miltank and is close to 2HKOing Clefairy. Miltank outspeeds =Rival 3=
Elekid L21 @ Magnet
Magnet Thunderpunch 1HKOs Zubat and is close to 2HKOing Haunter
Fire Punch 3HKOs Bayleef and puts Magnemite in red. Bayleef 3HKOs back
Beats 3 at best =Morty=
Elekid L23 @ Mint Berry
Thunderpunch 2HKOs both Haunters, 4HKOs Gengar and is close to 1HKOing Gastly. Gengar KOs back with Shadow Ball after 1 Curse chip =Chuck=
Electabuzz L30
Thunderpunch 2HKOs Primeape and Poliwrath. Poliwrath 1HKOs back after a Leer
Needs luck to sweep =Jasmine=
Electabuzz L30 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Fire Punch 2HKOs Steelix and 1HKOs the rest. Steelix almost 2HKOs back with Iron Tail.
Clean sweep =Pryce=
Electabuzz L31 @ Magnet
Magnet Thunderpunch 1HKOs Seel and 2HKOs Dewgong
Fire Punch 2HKOs Piloswine
A clean sweep =Rival 4=
Electabuzz L33-34 @ Magnet
Magnet Thunderpunch 1HKOs Golbat and is close to 1HKOing Haunter
Fire Punch 1HKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Sneasel
Ice Punch 2HKOs Meganium
Needs luck to sweep =Clair=
Electabuzz L37 @ PRZCUre Berry
Ice Punch 2HKOs the Dragonairs.
Thunderpunch 4HKOs Kingdra. Kingdra 2HKOs back
Beats 2 Dragonair at best =Rival 5=
Electabuzz L39 @ PRZCure Berry / Nevermeltice
Thunderpunch 1HKOs Golbat and 2HKOs Haunter and Kadabra
Fire Punch 2HKOs Magneton, puts Sneasel in red and is close to 2HKOing Meganium
Nevermeltice Ice Punch 2HKOs Meganium
Beats 5 at best, a sweep can be possible barring hax =Will=
Electabuzz L40-41 @ Magnet
Magnet Thunderpunch 1HKOs both Xatus and 2HKOs Slowbro
Fire Punch 2HKOs Jynx and Exeggutor
Beats 4 at best, a sweep is possible if Jynx went for DoubleSlap =Koga=
Electabuzz L40
Fire Punch 2HKOs Ariados and Venomoth, and 1HKOs Forretress
Thunderpunch 2HKOs Crobat and 4HKOs Muk
Beats 4 at best barring hax =Bruno=
Electabuzz L41 @ Magnet
Magnet Thunderpunch 3HKOs the Hitmons and 4HKOs Machamp. Machamp 1HKOs back, Top 2HKOs back, Chan almost 3HKOs back
Ice Punch 1HKOs Onix
Beats 2 at best =Karen=
Electabuzz L41 @ Magnet
Magnet Thunderpunch 1HKOs Murkrow, 4HKOs Houndoom, and is close to KOing Gengar after a Curse and 4HKOing Umbreon
Beats 2 at best =Lance=
Electabuzz L42 @ Magnet
Magnet Thunderpunch 1HKOs Gyarados and 2HKOs Charizard.
Ice Punch 2HKOs the Dragonites. L47 can 1HKO back with Hyper Beam
Beats 2 at best.
I tried this because i thought Elekid might have a chance to be in D Tier but, oh dear, i'm going for E Tier on this one alongside other Odd Egg mons. If i understood this Egg Cycle thingy correctly; it takes around 20 Egg Cycle to hatch an Odd Egg, which twice higher than Togepi's 10 Egg Cycle. Yes, you do have a Bicycle at that point but you're effectively hatching like more than 3 Eggs because the Odd Egg is completely randomized between one of 7 pokemon, and you don't know what's inside of it until you hatched it. Its really painful and time consuming to repeatedly circling around until you got the right mon, and it took me around 6 tries to get Elekid. Its really painful to get a certain mon from Odd Egg, let alone a shiny one (non-shiny mons from Odd Egg have 0 DVs in every stat). Not to mentioned they're also underleveled. As for Elekid, It feels meh until evolving into Electabuzz, and even then its only average at best.
PSA for anyone getting the evolutionary stones in-game: it seems you have to get a call from the appropriate trainer to battle them, THEN get another call from them for an item. I might be wrong on this but this is how it worked for Fisherman Tully: if I am wrong correct me.
Been using Cyndaquil, Poliwag (Poliwrath) and Miltank, at Burned Tower currently. Cyndaquil is what you’d expect; good until Azalea Rival then super meh.
I think Poliwag has been actually okay. The damage as Wag definitely wasn’t good but a fast Hypnosis really can come in handy more than I thought, stopping Miltank from healing or Rollout combo is a legitimately good, if unreliable niche. If you can get it to 13 for Water Gun for Faulkner (plenty feasible if you grind on Geodude, the Gym, and the few Hoothoot in Sprout Tower) it sweeps him but then doesn’t do so hot for Bugsy and Whitney (fails to 2HKO the cocoons in the former, faster than Miltank but your victory depends on Sleep RNG as it is bulky).
Not much to say on Miltank other than it’s a good route cleaner and TM05 for Rollout is pretty free (yeah it learns it naturally…at level 34).
Dunno who my fourth will be, if I use a fourth Mon at all. I’m open to suggestions however!
PSA for anyone getting the evolutionary stones in-game: it seems you have to get a call from the appropriate trainer to battle them, THEN get another call from them for an item. I might be wrong on this but this is how it worked for Fisherman Tully: if I am wrong correct me.
Been using Cyndaquil, Poliwag (Poliwrath) and Miltank, at Burned Tower currently. Cyndaquil is what you’d expect; good until Azalea Rival then super meh.
I think Poliwag has been actually okay. The damage as Wag definitely wasn’t good but a fast Hypnosis really can come in handy more than I thought, stopping Miltank from healing or Rollout combo is a legitimately good, if unreliable niche. If you can get it to 13 for Water Gun for Faulkner (plenty feasible if you grind on Geodude, the Gym, and the few Hoothoot in Sprout Tower) it sweeps him but then doesn’t do so hot for Bugsy and Whitney (fails to 2HKO the cocoons in the former, faster than Miltank but your victory depends on Sleep RNG as it is bulky).
Not much to say on Miltank other than it’s a good route cleaner and TM05 for Rollout is pretty free (yeah it learns it naturally…at level 34).
Dunno who my fourth will be, if I use a fourth Mon at all. I’m open to suggestions however!
How it actually works is that they randomly call you and one of 3 things will happen. It is a random call that does nothing, they call to battle or they call to give you the item. They can happen in any order so when doing the Daylight time manipulation save beforehand to reset if they call to battle cause calling to battle or give the item cancels the other option until you go talk to them.
How it actually works is that they randomly call you and one of 3 things will happen. It is a random call that does nothing, they call to battle or they call to give you the item. They can happen in any order so when doing the Daylight time manipulation save beforehand to reset if they call to battle cause calling to battle or give the item cancels the other option until you go talk to them.
Thanks for the clarity. I got the call to battle early on, then did a solid 50+ calls and no item. I went to battle and then bam item call after the DST trick. It was weird.
since this has gotten lively, I felt like jumping back in as well
I decided to load up a bunch of quick runs with Chikorita / Sentret / Phanpy (C) / Hitmonlee (C) / Natu. I am not sure if we are ranking the Odd Egg Pokemon, but if we do, we can safely use Lee as the basis for ranking the other Hitmons (or rather, under the same rank for Tyrogue, which ideally would merge with the GS one as well) given they are outright worse.
Now, let me talk about my stuff
Chikorita
Meganium
Falkner(12): for whatever reason, Tackle deals low damage to Pidgeotto, which can break through you even with Reflect up
Bugsy(17): Scyther overwhelms you easily, though you could poison it
Silver(17): lol no
Whitney(20): Poison powder + Reflect can wear Miltank down, but it will eventually crush you with Rollout anyways
Morty(25): lol no
Chuck(30): MS Razor Leaf 3HKOes both. Glhf
Jasmine(30): Mud-Slap doesn't even 2HKO Magnemite
Pryce(31): MS Razor Leaf 2HKOes everything. You may not sweep
Clair(38): takes out two Dragonair with healing, can also help against Kingdra
Will(42): struggles to get past Xatu and Exeggutor, beats Slowbro
Koga(42): the only thing you 2HKO with EQ is Muk...
Bruno(42): screens + one healing take out Hitmons and Onix
(logs for Karen and Lance missing for obvious reasons)
For this run, I decided to do something slightly different from what most people would do and I decided to keep Bayleef unevolved for Gyms 5-7, mainly to see if you really need to go out of your way to evolve it to make it usable.
And, boy, you sure as hell need to. We all know Chikorita is fairly bad in Johto games, but you literally shoot yourself in the foot if you don't evolve it for Gyms 5-7. My Chikorita did little to the first three Gyms, only being able to contribute against them (apparently, Chikorita can sweep Falkner, but I am not sure how I'd do that in a way that is intuitive). Then you get to Morty where it flops entirely. Chuck and Pryce are somewhat bad matchups if you don't have Meganium and Jasmine also steamrolls you (Mud-slap from Bayleef doesn't even 2HKO Magnemite). Meganium, unfortunately, is unlikely to be useful at the E4, where its only somewhat workable matchup is Bruno
so yeah, definitely go out of your way to evolve it. Not higher than C-tier, but honestly, I could maybe see it in D-tier, my experience with it was miserable, even if I kind of set it up for failure, but it's not a hill I am going to die on, because, as I said, I didn't use it in the most optimal way (and that was the point)
Sentret
Furret
Falkner(11): Set up DCurl. QA 2/3HKOes Pidgey and 4HKOes Pidgeotto. Their attacks leave you in red by the time you are finished
Bugsy(16): Pink Bow Swift 3HKOes Scyther and 2HKOes the rest. Scyther is faster, but three Fury Cutters aren't enough to KO you, even if you took damage from Poison Sting (which deals like 3 damage)
Silver(17): beats starter and Zubat with Swift spam
Whitney(20): you can with Curlout if you are lucky enough
Silver(22): Dig 2HKOes Haunter and OHKOes Magnemite. Zubat is OHKOed by PB Strength and starter is 2HKOed. If you don't get Cursed, you are sweeping easily
Morty(25): Dig 2HKOes lv. 23 Haunter and Gengar and OHKOes the rest. Outspeeds all
Chuck(30): beats Primeape
Jasmine(30): beats Magnemite
Pryce(31): PB Strength 3HKOes Piloswine and 2HKOes the rest. You outspeed everything even at -1 and only Blizzard deals any serious damage to you. However, Piloswine tends to go for Mist and Blizzard doesn't KO you in one hit, so you are very likely to sweep
Silver(32): Dig OHKOes Magnemite and 2HKOes Haunter. PB Strength 3HKOes starter and 2HKOes the rest. You are unlikely to sweep, but you do beat a lot of Pokemon here
Clair(38): it can take out two Dragonairs if it doesn't get unlucky with paralysis
Silver(40): Dig OHKOes Magneton and OHKOes Haunter on rolls. PB Return (around 222 happiness) is an OHKO on Sneasel and Kadbara, 2HKO on Golbat, and a 3HKO on starter
Will(42): PB Return OHKOes Jynx and 2HKOes Xatu. Exeggutor comes in and finishes you off
Koga(42): beats Ariados and Venomoth reliably
Bruno(42): no
Karen(42): beats Murkrow and Vileplume
This one, on the other hand, is actually decent! It performs fairly well early on, beating Falkner, Bugsy, and most of Morty, while standing some chance against Whitney. It also sees some use against Gyms 5-7 and the rival fight. Unfortunately, it does fall off as you reach the end more, as it isn't very useful at the League.
However, there is one thing that sets Sentret apart from other Pokemon and that is that it can also be used as an HM slave. In fact, you could very easily use Furret as a team member and, when you feel like it no longer suits your needs, turn it into an HM slave. So this thing is all-around useful to run with, as it's decent early on and provides HM utility around the time it loses its usefulness. I am going to say B-tier on it
Phanpy (C)
Donphan
Falkner(11): DCurl once or twice and spam Tackle for the win
Bugsy(17): you can potentially win with DCurl spam on Metapod and Pink Bow Flail. However, you may need to heal to sweep, especially if Kakuna poisons you
Silver(18): beats Gastly and Zubat. Quilava can be beaten with Mud-slap spam
Whitney(20): Curlout wins the fight in four turns if no misses. Miltank tends to go for Rollout
Morty(25): Mud-slap 2HKOes Gengar on rolls, OHKOes Gastly, and 2HKOes Haunter. You won't sweep, but you will take out most of his team
Chuck(30): beats Primeape
Jasmine(30): beats Magnemite. Steelix can be weakened with Mud-slap, but you deal little damage to it
Pryce(31): Curlout can sweep, albeit inconsistently
Clair(38): beats one Dragonair
Will(42): too slow to beat anything efficiently + confusion interferes with Curlout
Koga(42): beats Ariados, Moth, and Muk reliably
Bruno(42): DCurl few times then spam EQ for the win, heal if needed
So the first issue with this thing is getting one. It has flee rate of 50% and I am psure its catch rate isn't that ideal for throwing Poke Balls at full HP. On the other hand, it is somewhat decent for the first Gyms, being able to sweep all of them and contribute to Morty. It's plagued by a lack of good STAB move until Earthquake (it DOESN'T learn Dig, for w/e reason). Gyms 5-7 aren't ideal for Donphan, though it picks up a bit at the E4 with fairly good performances against Koga and Bruno (and maybe Karen, I kind of got tired of my run after reaching her)
I am going to say C-tier
Hitmonlee (C)
Hitmonlee
Whitney(21): slower than Miltank. PB Headbutt 4HKOes it, while Miltank 3HKOes with Stomp. If it derprs with Rollout turn one ,you may win
Silver(22): Rock Smash 2HKOes Magnemite. PB Strength OHKOes Zubat and 3HKOes starter
Morty(25): lol no
Chuck(30): HJK seems to OHKO Primeape and 2HKO Poliwrath, though Dynamic Punch might be a problem
Jasmine(30): HJK OHKOes Magnemite and 2HKOes Steelix, though the latter OHKOes with Iron Tail
Pryce(31): HJK OHKOes everything
Silver(33): beats Magnemite, Sneasel, and starter
Clair(38): Black Belt HJK OHKOes Dragonair on rolls and 2HKOes Kingdra. You outspeed all. Possible sweep
Silver(40): beats Magneton, Sneasel, Golbat, and Kadabra
Will(42): lol no
Koga(42): beats Ariados and Venomoth
Bruno(42): beats Hitmons and Onix without healing if it doesn't get unlucky with HJK misses
Karen(42): beats the Darks. Use Mind Reader on Umbreon if needed
Before I continue, please just throw "Tyrogue" as a whole in E-tier. Tyrogue from Odd Egg is almost completely unusable until evolution and you need to buy Vitamins to evolve it in anything that is not Hitmontop (and this will certainly affect your ability to buy GC TMs for your teammates). Anyways, Hitmonlee by itself is fairly usable once it gets HJK; with Black Belt, this thing hits surprisingly hard, notably being capable of OHKOing Clair's Dragonair (though it's a roll). However, HJK is fairly unreliable due to the possible crash damage and its general inaccuracy, which is further worsened by Lee's pretty bad physical bulk. All in all, Lee by itself is usable, but getting to that stage is very painful and Lee isn't exactly reliable with HJK either
as for the other Hitmons, note that they don't get any good STAB moves whatsoever (and if they do get a STAB move, it's at a late level if you don't go for Rock Smash), so they are just outright worse than Lee
Natu
Chuck(30): Surf 3HKOes Xatu, which is faster and 3HKOes with Sharp Beak Peck
Jasmine(30): no
Pryce(31): beats Seel
Clair(38): takes out one Dragonair
Will(42): beats Exeggutor... and yeah that's where its contributions end
Koga(42): beats Ariados and Venomoth
Bruno(42): beats the Hitmons
oh boy, where do I start. This thing *sucks*. It barely has anything good going for it and it almost feels like you are going through numerous hoops just to make it usable. First of all, this thing requires a pretty big backtrack (since you have to go through the Union Cave). Then you realize this thing has no good starting moves (Peck isn't really that good unless you hit super effectively with it) unless you catch it in a Friend Ball and give it Return. Then you realize that, upon evolution, you get no good STAB moves whatsoever; the only one Xatu can depend on is Fly, which is coming off its rather mediocre attack. Future Sight, unfortunately, isn't a STAB move this gen, so it doesn't really help you. The worst thing is that Xatu gets no real coverage; it doesn't learn Shadow Ball this gen and things like Solar Beam come too late to be worth it.
Now, in terms of performance, it, unsurprisingly, doesn't have a lot to show. It can sweep Chuck with Sharp Beak Peck and can contribute to Koga and Bruno with a few kills... and yeah, that's pretty much where any of its remarkable traits end, because it doesn't really do much in other fights. In short, I say throw this in E-tier and don't bother ever using it.
===
I will see if there's anything else I am interested in using or retesting. Note that I didn't bother testing Silver and Karen mostly because I felt too lazy in those instances and those wouldn't have changed my minds about the Pokemon anyways
also, it's been a while since I last tested for a "classical" game, so I am not in a condition to post more lengthy analyses and some of my nominations may be slightly off, so please excuse me.
Arcanine at level 25 outspeeds and 1HKOs everything except Gengar who is 2HKO by dig. Having a mint berry equipped makes this a flawless matchup. Mine seems to have had average to above average dvs for speed and good attack and special but as long the speed and attack are not garbage it is a near guaranteed victory.
Exeguttor at level 25 1HKO the Gastly and Haunters while 2HKO the Gengar with Confusion. It only outspeeds the gastly while having perfect speed DVs so while you can sweep it is only if they try hypnosis and fail. You also take a third from shadow ball so at worst you can beat the gengar solo. Decent to good matchup overall.
Cloyster at level 25 outspeeds the gastly and level 21 haunter while 1HKO with surf. Gengar and the level 23 Haunter outspeed but the Gengar is 2HKO with surf while the Haunter is a range for 1HKO. Take 2/3 from dream eater and a third from night shade. Gengar did not use Shadow ball but considering my defense probably does almost nothing. Pretty good matchup overall and might perform better since I looked at DVs and it was a mixed bag of perfect special and near perfect attack but only 4 to 5 dv for speed. So it hits as hard as possible but is slower than average and I think that may have made the second haunter outspeed. On the other hand having less special makes the KOs probably turn into potential 2 and 3 hits instead so depends on how much you think resetting for good DVs matters.
Arcanine at level 28 outspeeds everything and range for 2HKO on the Primeape and 4HKO the Poliwrath with headbutt. Dynamic punch with a leer is the only thing I can make Chuck use and it does well over half. So decent at best since it is only beating poliwrath with headbutt flinches, him missing with hypnosis or him being weakened by someone else since Poliwrath does too much damage. Can handle Primeape though.
Exeguttor at level 28 is outsped by everything and 2HKO the Primeape and range for 2HKO the Poliwrath with confusion. A leer boosted karate chop does around an eighth while a leer boosted dynamic punch does around a fourth. Surf does around a sixth. If you get off a leech seed before being put to sleep and confused it will take extreme luck like hitting yourself in confusion twice and 3 dynamic punches boosted by leer hitting in a row. I actually won once by just using leech seed at the beginning of the poliwrath and won while being asleep the entire time. Primeape is nearly a 1HKO so maybe at level 30 it could accomplish that. Also have Hypnosis if he doesn’t randomly decide to just start with dynamic punch. Pretty good matchup overall with sweeping being normal but can be haxxed.
Cloyster at level 29 2HKO the Primeape with surf and range of a 5HKO with swift on Poliwrath. You take half from a crit karate chop and a single dynamic punch. Only outspeed the Poliwrath. Pretty bad matchup since without extreme luck the poliwrath is not being beaten.
Arcanine at level 32 outspeeds even with a speed drop and 2HKO the seel with return, 2HKO the Dewgong and 1HKO the Piloswine with Fireblast boosted with charcoal. Arcanine takes around an eighth from headbutt and 3HKO the Dewgong with return anyway so flawless matchup.
Exeguttor at level 32 outspeeds while 2HKO the Seel, 4HKO the Dewgong, and 3HKO the Piloswine with confusion. A better method is to sleep the seel and use rollout since after the 3 needed to knock out the seel, the dewgong and piloswine are 1HKO because if icy wind lowers speed the latter 2 outspeed. Take over half from blizzard, a fourth from dewgong’s Aurora beam and around a fifth from seel’s aurora beam. Decent to good matchup overall.
Cloyster at level 32 2HKO the seel and 3HKO the dewgong with mystic water rain surf. Return is a 3HKO on the seel and 4HKO on the Dewgong who has rest. Surf does 1HKO the piloswine who you do outspeed. You do outspeed without a speed drop but dewgong will use icy wind to try and after that happens it is a slog because it barely does more than 5 damage an attack but being slower means it spams rest every time you bring it low. Ok matchup since you will most likely win but it is super slow.
Arcanine at level 32 outspeeds and 1HKO everything with Fire Blast plus charcoal. The magnemite can also be 1shot with dig. Flawless matchup.
Exeguttor at level 32 outspeeds everything and 3HKO the magnemite with confusion. Iron tail does over a third. Confusion is around a 6HKO on Steelix. Rollout does nothing to Steelix. Outside sleep plus leech seed shenanigans this is a terrible matchup. At most
Cloyster at level 32 outspeeds and 1HKOs everything with surf plus mystic water. Flawless matchup.
Arcanine is useful for everything except the Poliwrath and has pretty decent coverage. The lack of power outside normal and fire moves will probably cause problems later though.
Exeguttor performs fine in most matchups but being relatively slow and grass type in a game that loathes grass types is holding it back. Not helping that besides the resists from being grass it only is getting leach seed to remind you it actually is grass type. Though leech seed is honestly better than most of its other options right now anyway since it lets it win fights it otherwise can’t. Not helping is being stuck with confusion for the whole game. At least it has good special attack.
Cloyster honestly surprised me in being just mostly ok. Like I honestly thought that the higher attack and speed than lapras would help but I barely see the benefits at all. Though this is due to it having similar performance in general to most water types but getting problems at chuck and a bit of pryce. Might see it perform better when we actually face major fights where the ice attacks matter.
So the reason I mentioned DVs in the Morty data was that I noticed that Exeguttor and Cloyster had nearly the same speed despite the base speed difference so while part of it was likely stat exp I suspect that Exeggutor won’t normally outspeed that well. So if anyone tests him and notices mine outspeeds while yours does not, that is why.
Going to sleep then it will be time for Clair.
I decided to do a run with Spinarak / Qwilfish / Forretress / Sneasel. And yes, I do hate myself, how did you figure it out?
Spinarak
Ariados
Falkner(14): cannot beat Pidgeotto without a lucky poison and healing spam
Bugsy(16): can lower Scyther's speed and potentially poison it, but don't expect to breeze through here
Whitney(20): I didn't have trainers left to evolve it
Morty(25): Dig OHKOes everything but Gengar. However, you are slower than everything
Chuck(30): PBarb Sludge Bomb 2HKOes Primeape and 3HKOes Poliwrath, though the latter becomes a 2HKO with a poison turn one
Jasmine(30): beats Magnemite
Pryce(31): PBarb Sludge Bomb OHKOes Seel and 2HKOes Dewgong. Piloswine will generally beat you
Silver(34): beats everything but Golbat
Clair(38): 2HKOes Dragonair with Sludge Bomb. You take out two at best
Silver(40): slower than everything. Dig OHKOes Magneton and Haunter, while PBarb SBomb OHKOes Sneasel, Kadabra, and Meganium
Will(42): haha no
Koga(42): fails to do much here other than spam Night Shade
Bruno(42): beats Hitmons
Before I start off, I should recommend that you catch a Spinarak from the National Park, rather than getting one as early as possible, because early Spinarak *sucks*. Anyways, Spinarak, unsurprisingly, isn't the best thing you could choose when you have tons of other options that outperform in just about every aspect (typing, stats, movepool). Regardless, I did manage to make it usable in my run and prevent it from being a total deadweight.
Ariados can see some use in major fights when taught Sludge Bomb and Dig. This allows it to have an acceptable performance against Gyms 5-7, though only Chuck is feasibly sweepable. It sees some use against the rival and even managed to be useful at the Bruno (at the expense of being useless in pmuch the rest of the League). Furthermore, its Fast growth rate means that it won't be much of an issue to bring up its levels later on. For this reason, I am gonna settle for D-tier, though it could probably land in E-tier if you don't feel generous enough
Qwilfish
Qwilfish
Bugsy(16): PB Swift is a 4HKO on Scyther. You can set up a Harden and/or a Minimize on Metapod to make the matchup safe (Minimize isn't required, just if you are feeling paranoid)
Silver(17): beats Zubat
Whitney(20): Minimize and Harden once (or as much as you wish to, but once should be enough) and start to Rollout. The chances of Rollout being interrupted are significantly lower the more you set up Minimize / Harden
Morty(25): Surf 3HKOes Gengar, OHKOes Gastly, and 3HKOes Gengar. If you Minimize on lv. 21 Haunter (which tends to go for Night Shade), you have a chance of making yourself less vulnerable to hax
Chuck(30): PBarb Sludge Bomb OHKOes Primeape and 2HKOes Poliwrath. Given you resist Poliwrath altogether, this is a solid matchup
Silver(32): the best way to sweep here is to set up a few Minimizes and spam Rollout
Clair(38): will generally take out only one Dragonair
Silver(40): PBar SBomb OHKOes Sneasel and Kadabra and 2HKOes Meganium. MW Surf 2HKOes Haunter and 3HKOes Golbat. Avoid Magneton and (if worried about confusion) Golbat
Will(42): haha no
Koga(42): Rollout is your only way to inflict any serious damage to his team
Bruno(42): if you spam Minimize on Hitmontop, you can (unreliably) sweep. Watch out for Machamp's Foresight, though
So Qwilfish is actually sort of decent. Teach it Swift ASAP and it can quickly grind up some levels. In addition, it is capable of sweeping fights like Bugsy and Whitney, while also hitting somewhat hard with STAB Sludge Bomb.
So where are the problems? The first one comes with availability. The only way to get Qwilfish in the main game is through swarms. This means that you have to make a huge backtrack to New Bark and then spend some time abusing the DST trick to get the needed call. The second one comes from Minimize. Qwilfish desperately needs it, especially in later fights, in order to "safely" sweep and even that won't be consistent enough. You also need to set up many of those if you want the odds to be in your favor. And the fact that you need RNG moves to succeed in general is highly concerning.
I think D-tier makes sense for Qwilfish. I'd have said C-tier if one of those problems didn't exist, but alas, that's not the case
Pineco
Forretress
Whitney(20): PB Self-Destruct OHKOes Miltank
Morty(27): if get lucky with Rollout, you might be able to do something here
Chuck(30): PB Strength 3HKOes Primeape. If you live a Surf from Poliwrath (it deals around 50-55 HP), you can OHKO it with Self-destruct. If evolved, this matchup is pretty safe
Jasmine(30): lol no
Pryce(31): Rollout spam will win this easily, since you resist their attacks. Strength spam is also an option
Silver(34): you can 1v1 Golbat, then switch out against Magnemite. Bring Forry back against Haunter or Sneasel and Rollout to the win
Clair(38): the best way to use Forry here is to OHKO Kingdra with a PB Self-destruct. Only watch out for Smokescreen, though
Silver(40): Rollout spam is about your only way to crush most of his team
Will(42): PB Strength generally 2HKOes and 3HKOes everything, but confusion + slowness screws you over in spite of Psychic resistance. You could try Rollout if you feel ballsy enough
Koga(42): PB Strength seems to 3HKO Ariados and Venomoth. Explosion can be used to OHKO Muk
Bruno(42): it can explode on Machamp to OHKO it
Karen(42): it can OHKO Umbreon with PB Explosion, but watch out for Sand-attack, as Umbreon is faster
So I am going to link to this post which features a useful image about Pineco and Heracross. So you will always get Pineco after Gym 2, though you may need to backtrack, depending on the game
So, in terms of performance... this thing isn't that good. The only reliable sweep it achieves is against Pryce. However, there's one notable niche Pineco has and that is Self-destruct and Explosion. With those moves, you get to OHKO some of the most dangerous Pokemon in the entire game, such as Miltank, Kingdra, Umbreon, Machamp, and Koga's Muk. However, it is important to note that some of those can play with your accuracy, so exploding on those is sometimes a gamble.
And that's pretty much where its usefulness comes to an end. It's okay on the field, but I don't care that much about the field unless something notoriously sucks there. D-tier should be good
Sneasel (C)
Sneasel
Silver(32/33): OHKOes Magnemite with Dig and Haunter with Shadow Ball. Golbat and Sneasel are 2HKOed by PB Return. Screech + PB Return 2HKO Meganium
Clair(38): beats one Dragonair
Silver(40): beats Magneton with Dig and Kadabra and Haunter with Shadow Ball. Beats Sneasel, though QA + Screech prevent it from beating Golbat
Will(42): Spell Tag Shadow Ball OHKOes Jynx and 2HKOes the rest. You are capable of sweeping without healing, but confusion may force one healing item
Koga(43): PB Return 2HKOes Ariados and Venomoth. After a Screech, it also 2HKOes Crobat, which is slower.
(rest has no notable accomplishments)
so Sneasel was on my "auto E-tier" list I had made a while ago, citing as a reason its insanely low Special Attack, which meant it couldn't use its killer typing for STAB moves. I decided to try Sneasel by catching it with a Friend Ball and teaching it Return, Shadow Ball, and Dig.
Well.. it did turn out to not be a total deadweight, but I am not sure if it still should be higher than E-tier. It comes fairly late and guzzles down quite a few TMs to be useful and its positive matchups are somewhat limtied; Will sweep was pretty nice, though the rest are fairly "trivial" KOs (aka ones where I expect a lot of things to do well) and Sneasel wasn't all that great elsewhere (cough Clair and Bruno). It does level up quickly thanks to Med Slow growth rate, though. But yeah, I'd probably just keep it in E-tier due to how late it comes, how few matchups it has, and how many TMs it needs to be usable.
(note: I, once again, didn't bother too much with Karen out of laziness + my thoughts were already made up, I only tried Forry to see if I could OHKO Umbreon)
===
I will see what other shitmons I could use, since I think I used almost everything viable a while ago, though there might be a hidden gym somewhere...
I also did a playthrough with Chikorita, Hoppip, Oddish (Sun Stone) and Sunkern. Here are the results: (EDIT: I forgot to add again that DVs are 9 Atk, 8 everything else)
Chikorita (13): Reflect lets it withstand a few hits from Pidgeotto, but Razor Leaf 5HKOs, and Chikorita is 5HKO'd back. Both speed tie. You can only win if you fish a critical with Razor Leaf. [0 points]
Bayleef (17): You can defeat Metapod and Kakuna with Razor Leaf to get around Harden, and the Mud Slap TM can help to circumvent Poison Sting. Defeating Scyther is out of the question since even with Reflect on, Fury Cutter's first hit inflicts 5 damage after Reflect.
Hoppip (15): Surprisingly, Hoppip can defeat Metapod and Kakuna by using Tail Whip and muscling through them while healing with Synthesis. Metapod can be defeated by Poison Powder as well. Although this is slow. Scyther is out of the question.
Oddish (15): Oddish can easily defeat Metapod with Poison Powder, and Absorb circumvents Harden. However, Oddish will run out of PP if it uses Absorb on both. Scyther is out of the question.
Bayleef (18): With the Mud-Slap TM, Bayleef 5HKOs Quilava, which 3HKOs with Ember and outspeeds. It can also 2HKO Gastly. Otherwise, Razor Leaf 3HKOs Gastly, and Tackle 3HKOs Zubat.
Hoppip (16): Hoppip can't beat Gastly. With Tail Whip and Tackle, Hoppip can deal 1 vs 1 against Zubat. Quilava outspeeds and 2HKOs with Ember.
Oddish (16): Oddish can defeat Gastly with seven Absorb hits, and Stun Spore can help. It can also defeat Zubat, but it will run out of PP for Quilava, who outspeeds and 2HKOs Oddish with Ember.
Bayleef (22): With the Fury Cutter TM, Bayleef 4HKOs Clefairy, and then 2HKOs Miltank. Chance of success is a coinflip though. Without it, Razor Leaf is a 3HKO on Clefairy and a 4HKO on Miltank, but the latter has Milk Drink and Attract to disrupt your offense.
Oddish (20): Return 4HKOs Clefairy, but Miltank is out of reach. Sleep Powder can disrupt Rollout and help against Clefairy. As a Bellossom (if you level up to Lv21), Return 3HKOs Clefairy and 6HKOs Miltank, while Sleep Powder disrupts Rollout, but Milk Drink impedes a sweep.
Skiploom (20): Sleep Powder, then Leech Seed (you can delay evolution until lv20), then Tail Whip twice and Headbutt to defeat Clefairy. It's far more unreliable for Miltank without a Gold Berry because it outspeeds and Skiploom needs to be at full health to survive two Rollouts. Skiploom can win if Leech Seed heals to full health before Miltank wakes up, or the Gold Berry activates in that turn to sleep Miltank again. Or if you use Synthesis.
Sunflora (19): +6 Mega Drain OHKOs Clefairy and 2HKOs Miltank. Sunflora can heal off the damage.
Bayleef (24): Razor Leaf 5HKOs Haunter, which makes Bayleef very susceptible to Curse. Headbutt 2HKOs Zubat and 3HKOs Quilava. With the Mud-Slap TM, Bayleef 3HKOs Haunter and 2HKOs Magnemite.
Gloom (22): The only option against Haunter is Sleep Powder and Absorb, which makes Gloom susceptible to Curse. Bellossom doesn't improve this match-up significantly.
Skiploom (23): With Sleep Powder and Leech Seed, Skiploom can shut down targets - however, since it can't damage Haunter directly, it puts itself at risk of Curse if Haunter wakes up before four turns, and will impede the sweep.
Sunflora (21): +6 Mega Drain can 3HKO Zubat, 2HKO Quilava and Magnemite. However, Haunter disrupts a sweep with Curse.
Bayleef (27): Razor Leaf 3HKOs Gastly, 4HKOs Haunter, which 4HKOs back with Night Shade, and 8HKOs Gengar. With the Mud-Slap TM, Bayleef 2HKOs Gastly, 3HKOs Haunter and 5HKOs Gengar. The lack of Bayleef's power makes it susceptible to Curse.
Gloom (26): Gloom's only option against Haunter is Sleep Powder and Absorb, which makes it susceptible to Curse.
Skiploom (26): With Sleep Powder and Leech Seed, Skiploom can shut down targets - however, since it can't damage Gastly directly, it puts itself at risk of Curse if Haunter wakes up before four turns, and will impede the sweep.
Sunflora (25): +1 Mega Drain 2HKOs Gastly, but Sunflora's low speed makes it susceptible to Curse, and does not let it set up for the rest of Morty's team.
Meganium (32): Body Slam 2HKOs Primeape. Razor Leaf (Miracle Seed) 2HKOs Poliwrath. Use Reflect to mitigate Dynamic Punch.
Gloom (31): Return 2HKOs Primeape and 4HKOs Poliwrath. Gloom resists Karate Chop and Dynamic Punch (5HKO), and Sleep Powder lets it defeat both. Even though Poliwrath outspeeds and has Hypnosis, Gloom should win. With the Sludge Bomb TM, Gloom 3HKOs Poliwrath.
Jumpluff (31): Sleep Powder and Leech Seed lets it handily defeat Primeape, since it is 2HKOd by Headbutt at -2 Def. Jumpluff resists Karate Chop and Dynamic Punch (5HKO without factoring Leech Seed).
Sunflora (30-31): Even at -1 Def, Sunflora is 3HKOd by Primeape's Karate Chop. +1 Mega Drain 2HKOs Primeape and +1 Petal Dance OHKOs Poliwrath.
Meganium (33): Razor Leaf OHKOs Seel, and 2HKOs Dewgong and Piloswine.
Gloom (32): Return 2HKOs Seel, 3HKOs Dewgong and 4HKOs Pilowsine. Absorb 3HKOs Seel, and 4HKOs Dewgong and Piloswine. Dewgong's Aurora Beam 3HKOs Gloom, and Piloswine's Blizzard 2HKOs, but Gloom can put the enemy to sleep and restore HP with Absorb. The Sludge Bomb TM doesn't improve the match-up.
Jumpluff (32): Sleep Powder and Leech Seed lets it handily defeat enemies. After one Tail Whip, Return 2HKOs Dewgong and 3HKOs Piloswine. Seel's Aurora Beam 3HKOs, while Dewgong's 2HKOs, before factoring Leech Seed. I have not been able to see how much damage Blizzard does, and I'd be tempted to say it's a negative match-up if it OHKOs from full, which I suspect.
Sunflora (32): You can use Mega Drain first to force Seel to use Rest, and then boost up to +2. Alternatively you can hit Seel with Mega Drain again to force it to use Rest once it wakes up. This lets Sunflora to boost up to +4. Two Growths is enough to force Dewgong to use Rest and restore the HP lost by Dewgong's Aurora Beam. Use Petal Dance for the OHKO against Dewgong and Piloswine.
Meganium (33): Body Slam 3HKOs Magnemite, which cripple Meganium with Thunder Wave. Razor Leaf almost 3HKOs Steelix, but Steelix 3HKOs Meganium. You can circumvent this with Reflect. With the Mud-Slap TM Meganium can 2HKO Magnemite, and with it in tandem with the Paralysis Berry, Meganium should win, although you want to make sure you have more than 20 HP when defeating Steelix to avoid being KOd by Sonic Boom.
Gloom (33): Return 4HKOs Magnemite, while Absorb 9HKOs Steelix. Sleep Powder can stop Steelix, however Steelix 2HKOs, and Magnemite's Thunder Wave cripples Gloom. Bellossom improves the match-up by being 3HKOd by Steelix's Iron Tail.
Jumpluff (33): It can Sleep Powder and Leech Seed Magnemite and Steelix. However Magnemite's Thunder Wave will cripple its stalling potential whenever it wakes up, and Steelix 2HKOs with Iron Tail.
Sunflora (32-33): +2 Mega Drain 2HKOs Magnemite and Steelix. It can win if it survives two hits from Steelix through Mega Drain (my benchmark was recovering around 30 HP). +3 Petal Dance probably OHKOs Steelix.
Meganium (34): Return 2HKOs Golbat, Sneasel and Quilava, 3HKOs Magnemite. Quilava's Flame Wheel and Golbat's Wing Attack 3HKO Meganium. With the Mud-Slap TM, Meganium 2HKOs Magnemite and 3HKOs Haunter.
Gloom (34): Gloom's low speed plays against it, as Golbat outspeeds and uses Confuse Ray or gets a 3HKO with Wing Attack, and Quilava's Flame Wheel 2HKOs Gloom. Meanwhile, Return 3HKOs back both of them.
Jumpluff (34): Golbat's Wing Attack 3HKOs. Haunter puts the win in jeopardy due to access to Curse, but I didn't get to see it using it. I'll count this against it nevertheless because I think I was just lucky.
Sunflora (34): Return 3HKOs Golbat, while it outspeeds and 3HKOs with Wing Attack. Since the lead is Golbat, Growth doesn't help much here.
Meganium (38): Return 2HKOs Dragonair and misses the 3HKO by little against Kingdra. Dragonair's Ice Beam 3HKOs and Dragonbreath 6HKOs, while Kingdra's Hyper Beam 3HKOs and Dragonbreath 5HKOs. Paralysis is too crippling to win, even if you still have access to Synthesis.
Gloom (37): Due to Gloom's low speed, Dragonair is less prone to use Thunder Wave. Return 3HKOs Dragonair and 5HKOs Kingdra. Dragonair's Dragonbreath 4HKOs and Ice Beam 3HKOs. Kingdra's Surf 4HKOs and Hyper Beam 2HKOs. Access to borth Sleep Powder and Moonlight allows Gloom to keep up on shape against repeated attacks. With the Sludge Bomb TM, Gloom 2HKOs Dragonair and 3HKOs Kingdra. As a Bellossom, Dragonair's Dragonbreath 6HKOs now, while Return 3HKOs back (2HKO with Pink Bow?); and Kingdra's Hyper Beam 3HKOs while Return 4HKOs back.
Jumpluff (37): Sleep Powder and Leech Seed should help - however Dragonair's Thunder Wave cripples Jumpluff's greatest asset, and thus Dragonair waking up or Sleep Powder missing means Jumpluff's chances of success are ruined. Return 3HKOs Dragonair and 5HKOs Kingdra. Dragonair's Ice Beam 2HKOs, while Thunderbolt and Dragonbreath 6HKO. Kingdra's Hyper Beam 2HKOs. You can win if you still have Synthesis, as you can sleep a Dragonair and heal to prepare for Hyper Beam.
Sunflora (37): Due to Sunflora's low speed, Dragonair is less prone to use Thunder Wave. +6 Mega Drain 2HKOs Dragonair, while +6 Petal Dance will OHKO (though perhaps +5 is enough for both). However, Dragonair's Slam 4-5HKOs Sunflora, so you're relying on misses. Dragonair's Ice Beam 3HKOs. Kingdra's Hyper Beam 2HKOs.
Meganium (40): Return 2HKOs Sneasel (first hit leaves in red) and Golbat, OHKOs Kadabra, and 3HKOs Typhlosion (misses on the 2HKO by little). With the Earthquake TM, Meganium 2HKOs Typhlosion, and OHKOs Magneton and Haunter. Sneasel's Fury Cutter 4HKOs if every attack hits. Golbat's Wing Attack 3HKOs. Typhlosion's Flame Wheel 3HKOs. Meganium can soften Sneasel's and Golbat's attacks with Reflect at the start, then sweep with Earthquake.
Gloom (40): It really tries this time. Return 2HKOs Sneasel, 3HKOs Golbat. Golbat's Wing Attack 3HKOs. Typhlosion's Flame Wheel 2HKOs. With the Sludge Bomb TM, Gloom OHKOs Kadabra. As Bellossom, Return 2HKOs Sneasel, OHKOs Kadabra, 3HKOs Golbat and Typhlosion, 4HKOs Magneton. On the other hand, Golbat's Wing Attack still 3HKOs, Typhlosion's Flame Wheel 3HKOs. However, its low speed plays against it once more, as the opponent can disrupt with Curse, Thunder Wave or Confuse Ray.
Jumpluff (40): Return 2HKOs Sneasel and Kadabra (didn't get to see exactly but it should have been close to a OHKO), 3HKOs Golbat and Typhlosion, 5HKOs Magneton. Sleep Powder, Leech Seed and Synthesis vastly improve its chances of success. Golbat's Wing Attack 3HKOs Jumpluff. However, it has to stall eight turns against Haunter, which can use Curse and disrupt the plans.
Sunflora (40): When I saw Return doing 3HKO against Golbat and it paying back with a 3HKO with Wing Attack I stopped bothering.
Meganium (41): Return 2HKOs Xatu and Jynx, 4HKOs Exeggutor. Xatu's Psychic 4HKOs. Jynx's Ice Punch 2HKOs. Exeggutor's Psychic 3HKOs. Light Screen and Synthesis help a lot. However, that would mean dealing with Slowbro without Razor Leaf, which is an issue when Slowbro uses Curse. With Razor Leaf, you have to drop another essential move, but you may still win without Razor Leaf.
Bellossom (40): Not worth having Gloom at this point anymore, as Xatu outspeeds and OHKOs with Psychic. Anyways, Return 3HKOs Xatu, 2HKOs Jynx, 4HKOs Exeggutor. Sleep Powder and Moonlight help it survive.
Jumpluff (40): Return 3HKOs Xatu, 2HKOs Jynx, 6HKOs Slowbro, 4HKOs Exeggutor. However, Will's lead can use Confuse Ray if it wakes up. Jynx can OHKO with Ice Punch. Xatu's Psychic 3HKOs. Slowbro's Psychic 3HKOs. Exeggutor's Psychic almost 2HKOs (possibly a range?). Sleep Powder, Leech Seed and Synthesis help, but Jynx is too much of a risk.
Sunflora (40): Xatu's Psychic 3HKOs. However, what can Sunflora do? Will leads with a Flying-type.
Meganium (41): Return 2HKOs Ariados, Venomoth and 3HKOs Crobat. Crobat's Wing Attack 3HKOs. However, the biggest impedement here is Toxic, since Meganium isn't strong enough to avoid damage from poison. The Earthquake TM only helps against Muk and Forretress.
Bellossom (41): Return 2HKOs Ariados. However Venomoth outspeeds and can use Toxic, which is problematic - and probably the only advantage of Gloom over Bellossom at this point (but I doubt Gloom would win this fight). Muk's Sludge Bomb 2HKOs.
Jumpluff (41): Return 3HKOs Ariados, 4HKOs Muk. Sleep Powder, Leech Seed and Synthesis help overcoming the enemies. However, Crobat's Wing Attack 2HKOs and outspeeds, which impedes Jumpluff to recover from Crobat waking up. Muk's Sludge Bomb also KOs from almost full.
Sunflora (41): Hopeless. Four quadruple resistant enemies, and two of them carry super effective attacks.
Meganium (41): Return 3HKOs Hitmontop and Machamp, 2HKOs Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee, and 7HKOs Onix. Razor Leaf would obviously OHKO Onix but you don't need it here. Hitmontop's Quick Attack 11HKOs, Hitmonchan's Mach Punch 7HKOs and Fire Punch 6HKOs, Hitmonlee's Double Kick 4HKOs, Machamp's Cross Chop 2HKOs, Onix's Rock Slide 7HKOs. Set up Reflect, use Synthesis when necessary.
Bellossom (41): Return 3HKOs Hitmontop and Hitmonchan, 2HKOs Hitmonlee, 4HKOs Machamp. Absorb OHKOs Onix. Sleep Powder and Moonlight help Bellossom survive. Hitmontop's Quick Attack 10HKOs. Hitmonchan's Fire Punch 6HKOs. Hitmonlee's Double Kick 4HKOs. Machamp's Cross Chop 2HKOs.
Jumpluff (41): Return 4HKOs Hitmontop, 3HKOs Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee, 8HKOs Onix, 5HKOs Machamp. Hitmonchan's Ice Punch 3HKOs. Onix's Rock Slide 3HKOs. With Sleep Powder, Synthesis and Leech Seed, it can win.
Sunflora (41): +3 Mega Drain 2HKOs Hitmontop, Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee. However, Mega Drain does not heal enough to endure every attack. With the Solar Beam TM, Sunflora can OHKO Hitmontop and Hitmonchan at +1. However, since Sunflora lacks speed, it gets worn down by attacks instead of sweeping. Hitmonchan 5HKOs with Mach Punch. Hitmonlee 3HKOs with Double Kick and 2HKOs with Hi-Jump Kick.
Meganium (42): Return 4HKOs Umbreon. With the Earthquake TM, Meganium 2HKOs Houndoom and Gengar. Umbreon's Faint Attack 7HKOs. Vileplume can disrupt with Stun Spore. Houndoom's Flamethrower 2HKOs (almost KOs from full).
Bellossom (41): Return 2HKOs Murkrow, 3HKOs Vileplume, 5HKOs Umbreon. Umbreon's Faint Attack 6HKOs. Houndoom's Flamethrower OHKOs. Murkrow's Faint Attack 5HKOs. Bellossom can't get past Gengar or Houndoom.
Jumpluff (41): It is faster than Houndoom, but Houndoom's Flamethrower OHKOs and stops the stalling attempts if it wakes up. There's no comeback if Houndoom wakes up. Gengar can also disrupt with Curse.
Sunflora (41): +6 Mega Drain 2HKOs Umbreon. Umbreon's Faint Attack 6HKOs. Gengar, Houndoom, Vileplume and Murkrow resist this and three of them have super-effective attacks.
Meganium (42): Return 3HKOs Gyarados. Gyarados's Rain boosted Surf 6HKOs and Hyper Beam 3HKOs. Dragonite's Hyper Beam 2HKOs and Blizzard 2HKOs. Because of Dragonite's Thunder Wave, it is unlikely to get past Dragonite, since it won't be able to set up or heal in time.
Bellossom (42): Return 3HKOs Gyarados and 5HKOs Dragonite. However Dragonite outspeeds and 2HKOs with Blizzard, so there is no comeback if Dragonite wakes up.
Jumpluff (41): Return 5HKOs Gyarados and Dragonite. Sleep Powder and Leech Seed can wear down enemies. Honestly the biggest problem is Aerodactyl. There's no comeback if it wakes up since it is faster than Jumpluff and 2HKOs with Rock Slide. Dragonite can also wake up and OHKO with Blizzard. Gyarados's Surf 5HKOs.
Sunflora (41): Hopeless. Dragonite is quadruple resistant to Grass-type attacks, as is Charizard.
Results:
Chikorita should be C. Chikorita has a bunch of interesting tools at its disposal, particularly Reflect and Synthesis, which make it very hard to kill, and Light Screen in endgame helps as well to face special attacks. However, Chikorita's lack of attack power hurts its viability, as it doesn't defeat enemies quickly enough for its bulk to make a difference, and leaves it susceptible to other forms of disruption. Chikorita also needs important TMs for certain match-ups, such as the Mud-Slap TM for Jasmine, the Earthquake TM for the last Silver fight, or the Fury Cutter TM for Whitney. I found it to win more battles than I expected to, but it is not enough to consider it efficient through the campaign.
Hoppip can be D, depending on how you look at the Sleep Powder and Leech Seed strategies. They are not the most efficient, but the fact is that they can win boss fights, and Synthesis helps to preserve health while stalling, and its damage output, while lower than its peers, is not terrible and works enough with an enemy that is asleep and seeded. With that said, even when taking that strategy into account, a lot of times Jumpluff needs the enemy not to wake up soon because they either OHKO Jumpluff with a super-effective attack, outspeed and 2HKO, also with a super-effective attack, or disrupt Jumpluff's capability to use its strategy with crippling status moves. This leaves actually with few match-ups that it can win consistently, hence its suggested ranking. To be honest it fails whenever a Ghost-type shows up, as it lacks the coverage.
Oddish (Sun Stone) can be D. Oddish's start is not good, but it improves once it evolves. Sleep Powder helps it alleviate match-ups where it can't survive many attacks, although just like Hoppip, there are battles where it can't come back if the enemy wakes up. Ghost-types are also its nemesis. I found it a good idea to wait until you get Moonlight to evolve, as the move helps it to recover when the enemy is asleep, and this gives Oddish an advantage in the lategame battles.
Sunkern should be D. Its claim to fame is Whitney, and it has a couple of positive match-ups here and there, but they are few. Its good special attack feels wasted on Grass-type attacks that are resisted by everyone, and its low speed is too crippling to get sweeps. It is mostly the good Special attack, Growth and healing what carries it, so it falls hard in the endgame.
